₦airaland Forum

Enigma:
I await to see viaro and wordtalk who claim to preach voluntary tithing accept that the "voluntary" tithing can be given anywhere but in/to "church"; e.g. that the "voluntary" tithing can be given to e.g. widows, orphans etc.

It is a very very very significant difference!

This will be one difficult question for anybody that gives his/her tenth to the church. If they believe the tenth can be given to widows or orphans, they would be doing it

AmeboAjela:
SOME pastors after studying theology rob their members blindly, enrich themselves and families while their members rot in poverty. While Robbers use force to rob people of their goods and valuables. From these two who is the bigger thief?

Depends. who stole more

@newmi, you are very correct to say it's more expensive to be poor. The poor actually pay more for basic necessities of life in the world we live in, i believe it is not possible to achieve equality, but we can close the gap.

newmi:
So much people needing help but only a man who is not poor can help

Yes. That's why people criticize pastors for being insensitive to the plight of the poor/homeless.

garyarnold:
Therefore, when someone says they are a tither, we really have no clue as to what they believe a tithe is.

Tithing is a tenth (10%), it is an investment (for those hoping to hit it big time), it is a principle (don't request for an explanation), it's a spiritual deed in relationship with God (copyright - Joagbaje), an act inspired by the biblical practice, it is a fraud (if you consider the motive for preaching of tithe). The modern day tithe is as defined by man, so it can be anything you want it to be i guess that's why a good number of tithe payers don't really understand what this tithe thing is all about .

debosky:
Good question - the bible says the individual should decide in his heart how he should give.

However, preachers are not restricted from offering guidance on how people should give, but this should be guidance and no more.

Thank you my brother if only i can get Jo to comply

Edit: debosky, i hope the guidance you are recommending does not involve coercion/scriptural manipulation (scare tactics) to confuse/scare the congregation?

debosky:
^^

For me, the 'ultimate' guidance on giving is

2 Corinthians 9:7

"You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. "For God loves a person who gives cheerfully." NLT

By deciding in your heart, that is the ultimate example of voluntary giving.

Not as decided by pastor, but by deciding in your heart well said, debosky

Joagbaje:
Isreal gave first fruits as a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt . But Abel was the first Perron to offer first fruits but he didn't have any deliverance from Egypt. The reasons and structures were different. But the principles are the same. They gave first fruits to God.

You are saying first fruit is multi-purpose so why do your members (cec) offer first fruit?

Joagbaje:
Why 10% only God knows. Besides it's so minute when compared to other givings we do. Tithing seem to be the least of our givings.

you see yourself na you are practicing what you don't understand since nobody told you to give 10% of your monthly income to the church, it's wrong for you to say it's God that knows

debosky:
if we take other actions of Abraham as evidence/symbolism of things to come - his faith, his circumcision, his encounter with Melchizedek, why can't a tithe (albeit recorded as a one-off) by Abraham serve as inspiration for people today?

Of course Abraham's act can serve as inspiration. The problem is how will somebody like Joagbaje preach 'inspirational tithing' without having to threaten/coerce/manipulate the flock

wordtalk:
After all the heat, people begin to compromise with suspicions at one another. The non-eaters or anti-eaters say that "it is okay" to eat "voluntarily" and not "compulsorily". Those who enjoy their meals with thanksgiving say that they do so voluntarily. Then all hell is let loose because for the anti-eaters, "voluntary" is not "voluntary" unless the eaters bend to the terms and definitive manipulations of the anti-eaters!

Now that was funny

Joagbaje:
Is prayer compulsory or voluntary? Whatever the answer , same goes or tithing

BTW, what has tithing got to do with prayer? The height of desperation. you come here with all sort of schemes to justify the 'milking' of the flock.

Joagbaje:
Is prayer compulsory or voluntary?

This what am talking about. for people like you 'voluntary' can be interpreted to mean "if you like do, if you like don't. na you lose'

Enigma:
In my view there is nothing to hold against a person who preaches "voluntary" tithing and in doing so agrees that a person who gives 10% (whether in money or otherwise) to charity instead of in/to church is a tither and his action can be appropriately called tithing. 

one has to be careful when defining 'voluntary' for most people, 'voluntary' could just be tithing or not tithing. it has nothing to do with where you render your tenth (i.e. church or charity).

MrBible:
[size=13pt]17.Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

The Bible tells us that Abraham was very rich in cattle, silver and in gold, but apart from the tithe on the spoils of war he did not pay any other tithe. This is an indication that tithe before the law was not as it is practiced in churches today, if it was then the Bible would have told us that Abram paid tithes on his cattle, silver and gold

Joagbaje:
And how did you know Abraham did not ?

Abraham did not tithe his cattle, silver and Gold cos there were no priest/pastor to receive the tithe no temple/church to deliver the tithe and we are not told he gave it to Angels

Enigma:
From the experience on this thread, obviously no be only Jo think so. 

I very much understand what you are talking about. but it was never stated in clear terms, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

Enigma:
Ah that reminds me! Henry Ford (I believe) once said something to the effect:

'You can have my new model car in any colour that you like - as long as it is black'!

Similarly: tithing is voluntary ---- as long as it is money and it is taken in/to church. 

Enigma:
If so called "voluntary" tithing was truly based on the Abram example or "principle", there will be no hesitation to make the acknowledgment.  

My brother, which one be Abram principle? most people are tithing to 'hammer'

Enigma:
This thread from page 3 became whether the argument is really for voluntary tithing if it cannot be accepted that it is appropriate to refer to a person whose 10% is in a form other than money or who gives his 10% outside church is a "tither" and his action is "tithing".

i think such views will be personal. for the man that renders his tenth to either charity or church, yes he believes he is tithing (that's the easy bit ). I think a good number of peeps that chose to render their tenth to the church, giving a tenth of income to charity cannot be tithing (otherwise they would be doing it). From pastoral perspective, rendering a tenth of your income to charity can NEVER be an act tithing if you think i am wrong, ask Jo

Edit: the question i would ask is: since the modern day tithing is a modified version of biblical tithing activities, who defines what tithing is or should be? Pastor or the man rendering his tenth?

nuclearboy:
Plus the last question brings something to light (in me). If pro-tithers state that Abram instituted tithing, I think its only fair they follow his rules! If its the Mosaic law, then the rules in that should hold sway! So which is it?

The modern day tithing is not based on any of these (though it appear to be a modified version of the Levitical tithe), so there are no rules to follow (other than pastoral rules ).

Joagbaje:
The bible didn't indicate the details .  important thing is the fact that tithing  is a spiritual deed in relationship with God.

Joagbaje don come with updated/modified definition of tithe. the idea that it based on 'spiritual principle' is not selling, now it is a 'spiritual deed in relationship with God'. what next

Joagbaje:
It cost money to follow up on. New convert, sometimes transporting him to church , buying him a bible, and empowering some financially to start a business.

I thought you said the church is not set up for charity?

Joagbaje:
Some other people are poor because they are lazy, this is also a sin. There is always a way out of poverty.

Oga Jo you dey encourage people to steal please re-phrase

The first time crossman9 asked the question:

crossman9:
"Joagbaje"
is it a sin to be poor i ask you this

Joagbaje:
It is not a sin.

feedback from crossmaan9 below

crossman9:
well pastor Chris said: “it is a sin to be poor”

then Jo is given the opportunity to confirm his initial response. . .

crossman9:
you have not answerd me is it a sin to remain poor

Joagbaje:
Yes and No.

Oga Jo, why you dey fear na

Joagbaje:
Zikky why do you guys manipulate peoples post?

It sad to see you actually believe zikkyy is the one manipulating people post. Is it because ogoamaka is your friend? BTW how come you are observing this after  two days?

Joagbaje:
Zikky should speak for himself .The OP wrote connecting and not collecting as far as I can see

I don't expect you to see any further I thought by now you should know me. what do i have to gain changing connection to collection?

ogoamaka99:
Any man/woman who never acknowledge his or her mistake is a fool. To say you never make a mistake is a sign of ignorance.

zikkyy is being crucified here for an offence he did not commit, and this is all you have to say? what's so difficult in saying it was in error. It's either a yes or no. It's either you acknowledge you made the change or you confirm you did not at any time typed the word 'collection'. That's what a true Christian would do, and that's how i'll believe you are truly one.

dare2think:
Haiti. Classic example. (Seun, bear in mind)


By the way,How will you deal with your Critics?

Jo cannot make moderator. His regime will be bad for business

njira:
My relationship with my Pastor is strictly on spiritual principles that have Biblical backings,  and jumping into the lagoon just for the sake of jumping in may not suffice

That's okay. I don't see anything wrong with your approach (placing reliance on your pastor). just be careful. that's all.

njira:
@Zikkyy, apologies for the late reply but i need to answer your last comment on my comment, i have decided that i dont have to wait till spiritual things are crystal clear to me before i engage in them, i choose to follow what my Pastor says long before i understand it, for i would rather follow it and it turns out to be a lie than not follow it and it turns out to be true

My sister, you no get wahala. Just be careful sha if your pastor tells you all jump into the lagoon, and you decide to comply long before you understand the rational behind such directive, there will be problem oh

toba:
Sir u are confused and just chating off point things here. U absolutely know nothing about what u want us to discuss since u lifted the Op from an external source which didnt originate from your self.

No problem if you think i m confused. But it's good you know i did not at anytime claimed ownership of the topic, and have not made any serious attempt to discuss the topic.

toba:
How sure are u with this satement? Was the money spent to measure the value in terms of benefit to man or to God?

it's the church spending the money. There has to be an objective. You don't go to t.v. without an objective (that's even worse). It's considered a waste if you are unable to measure the degree of success achieved. even if the value was to God, you should be able to tell if you achieved it. I have heard a number of times that the purpose is to win souls. Question: is television an effective tool for soul winning (taking into consideration the size of the fund expended) and how do you measure rate of success.

toba:
can u please give me the particular post wherein the question was answered?

see below. . . . .

Zikkyy:
What wrong with you adopting a means that yield the most returns? You don't have to adopt a particular approach because some other churches are already doing that.

you want me to rephrase? for you i will.

"What wrong with you adopting a means that yield the most returns? [s]You don't have to adopt a particular approach because some other churches are already doing that[/s] you don't need to overburden the church using t.v just because others (mega churches) are using t.v. consider a more (economical) approach that helps you manage your cashflows while spreading the message".

toba:
Like tpia said u are just zigzagging on this your thread with little or very poor knowledge of your own very topic

Faulty assumptions. The topic was meant for the attention of a particular group of people. They did read and got the message. I have made no attempt to comment on the topic itself, but chose to respond to any post i find interesting.  That's one reason i ignored your post (No. 1) and tpia's as well.

toba:
Hope u are aware that we are discussing using English language and i do hope u can read and understand your own post9I really doubt these based on why u ve asked an incredible question  )

You quoted my post that was directed to Enigma and responded to it yet u are asking me 'whatever gave you the impression that i was referring to your post'?

Your post below . . . .

toba:
Who told u that the church is advertising like coke, Pepsi etc and not actually propagating the gospel on Tv? so all the media publications by  preaching and reaching out to pple are adverts that can be compared to what other nonreligious brand put up on Air?

. . . .  my response

Zikkyy:
You mean you don't know No wonder you guys were chasing N200,000 with N500,000

Let me re-phrase for clarification purpose:

"You mean you don't know You guys believed you have been propagating the gospel all this while, no wonder [s]you guys were chasing N200,000 with N500,000[/s]  you've been spending in excess of your revenue" I hope i make more sense now.

and your conclusion was that zikkyy did not properly 'decode' your message in post (10).

toba:
Ok can u be kind enough to give clarification to what u are driving at  with most of your vague comments on this thread?

Good that you asked for clarification. While i agree that my post are sometimes not clearly expressed, i also expect you to task your brain a little.

toba:
the point is you said church is a business. all im expecting u to do is to provide verifiable evidence that the church thats supposed to be for propagating the gospel is a business. U ve made an assertion. kindly back it up.

This is not true. You've mis-interpreted my post. i don't remember referring to the church as a business. If you want a discussion on whether a church is a business or not, i will be willing to. But it's good we are clear on the issue of zikkyy calling the church a business.

Joagbaje:
I don't want to win religious poster of the year.  A beg .  I would love to be a moderator. I promise to bring and enforce order . I will enforce the rules of the forum  .  I will press for a christian section . Please vote me a moderator and Nairaland will not be a place for agberos.

Jo as moderator i dey fear oh i hope you will not attempt to enforce offering as well

Joagbaje:
Pastoral instructions are spiritual instructions.

Oga Jo, are you sure? so back in the days when Revd King was calling for petrol and matches, he was actually dishing out spiritual instructions what about the instruction that his maid should be stark nak.ed anytime she is to serve him

Azibalua:
whatever the case is the issue is thats the mind of the spirit at that instant
the issue is not standing when the pastor says so[b] but rather being responsive to the spirit of god.[/b]

is the pastor the same as the spirit of God?

Joagbaje:
Other times a pastor wants to teach people how to use their own authority to deal with problems by telling them to place their hands in the ares where they feel pain and command the pain to go by themselves . All these are spiritual instructions.

Oga Jo, one question please, how can i tell the difference between spiritual instruction and pastoral instruction

newmi:
@Zikkyy

what

Edit: I just watched the video. Oyaks gat the breath of God

ogoamaka99:
On earth today, there are many MOG who has activated this blessing of Abraham having paid the prize like Abraham.

What prize? is the blessings of Abraham restricted to MOGs?

"This blessing was upon Abraham, which was latter transferred to Isaac and Isaac transferred to Jacob. . . . . . .and finally transferred to the MOG"

ogoamaka99:
You can partake of the blessing of Abraham through collection to a MOG because it is been said in Genesis 12:3 “And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee:and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So the MOG is the storehouse. We have to bribe the MOG to obtain our share of Abrahams blessings?