₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Afro_Blue]You fail to see the relevance after the S.A. government and corporate slaughter of the miners?[/quote]O ok. So it has nothing to do with the OP. To why you brought bumped this.

Ignoring the police and the shooting since that matter is different and has a thread I want to bring up the root causes. Who was to blame for the strike to start in the first place.

The min company? They just a mine company. They may be owed a UK company but the south african branch is run by mainly black south africans. And they all so paying what all the other mines pay so it is not that this company is at the wrong because if they are doing something wrong all the mine company's are at wrong.

Then there is government. You could say they should have tried to improve there lives a long time ago. problem is they are not that bad off there are people in even worse condition. I know 4000 is not a lot of money. You could barely look after your self with that much never mind a family. But there are people far worse off in SA.

Then there are the 2 unions. Thhey really messed up this time. I put a lot of blame on the unions. I mean the miners could not have come up with 12500 rand out of there heads some one told them that figure. And personally 12500 is way to much that more than the pay than a trained mech.


what I think should happen. Government must bring in legislation to improve miners work and living condition.

By
Minimum wage for R7000 for mine workers

Free medical aid(spouse and kids included) and life cover.

Cheap or free lunch provided at the mines for the workers.

panafrican: Zuma can be proud, his government is drinking the tears of widows grieving for the loss of their husbands.
Click on the video http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19305698

Old news. They just got the list together a few hours ago.

panafrican:
These brain washed slaves policemen shot blindly because the protesters were Black.
I cannot imagine a single moment they would do the same thing if they had a crowd of white protesters in front of them. It sucks. To hell with a goverment that kills hungry exploited families.

Who are the masters. The entire police higher up is black and they work for a black government.

Hungry and exploited? Yes there pay is low and they should get a increase to I would say R7000 pulse free medical. But they not hungry or exploited you don't really know what that is and they should be glade they even have a job. The mining sector is in a slump with many mines all over the world closing.

cheikh: andrewza



@^^ hi Andrewza, how are you? remember our conversations on Mandela/Mugabe?

Anyway, your sentiments are quite correct. You'll have to understand that the Nigerian experience is usually about our untrained police men/women beating/flogging us like animals and a times some rogue ones amongst them will let off "accidental" rounds on one or two individuals at "Check points" because a few "Naira/bribe" was not given to them adequately enough.
Secondly, the pseudo-"bravado" you see Nigerians exhibit outwardly, is nothing but what it is- mere noise. We are inherently a cowardly/docile people compared to other Africans. Trust me I've met a lot of Africans from other places in Africa and abroad too.They are generally quieter but they have the heart/capacity to do harm swiftly if provoked. We are not as brave as we appear to foreigners who misguidedly equate noisiness and assume that we are generally aggressive . We are not. Only some of our citizens from the Northern parts of Nigeria come close to being brave/aggressive in a "negative" sense of the word. Besides very few Nigerians have actually seen the ugliness of War except during the Nigerian civil war(Biafra) which sadly is almost lost/forgotten by those actively involved in it let alone the rest of Nigerians that never witnessed the horrors of War outside the Eastern part of the country(Biafra). Many Nigerians have not witnessed a person being killed/shot at in anger or in war situation either, especially our "internet warriors". They'll never appreciate your stance or understand your view point. Believe me seeing the harrowing effects of the ugliness of war/deaths changes anyone forever and it is not an experience anybody will wish on their worst enemy.
Bro, I quite understand your view point on the subject because I have actually been in your position/ witnessed such ugliness/wickedness. People who have never been in your position, rarely will ever understand that shooting at a human being or having witnessed such events are not good for our Psyche at all. It is not "easy" if you're not a "psychopath" to kill another human being. I sincerely worry about our people and what we are about to become unintentionally. Perhaps tv and too much "Rambo" like films have taken hold of our collective imagination/warped desires to do harm to others. it is very shocking and sad.

Indeed but it is not a problem unique to Nigeria. The most common internet warriors are from the west they kids of around 13 and think that because the "own" at call of duty or what ever they now know every thing about war and guns. Most of them have never seen somebody die or even wounded badly from a fight.

cheikh: snydergp



@ So you glibly say this incident was the first of its kind in SA where the police have mowed people down? Hummm , that's the reason I sincerely worry about our(your) sense of history/collective memory. It is obvious that you are differentiating killing of union persons(civilians) from your(history) past events where numerous massacres have occurred. Nobody doubts that the majority of SAs are "peaceful" but you'll agree with me that your culture of violence and mindset towards law and order, despite her much touted liberal constitution is definitely "abnormal" hence sick is appropriate for such a society where gratuitous violence is very pervasive and now in officialdom Vengeance is seen as appropriate behaviour by so called "police". Terror has always been normal in SA by those in power and victims too. We can all take the moral high ground and use fancy phrases like "criminals", "crime" and "violent" protesters to justify our inherent prejudices and warped mindset inherited from an ugly past/ a not too long ago from the present events. We should be worried, shocked and ashamed of ourselves that we have not learnt anything from our recent past and not try to sweep it under the carpet. The past informs the present attitudes and actions. We cannot deny that fact. Old habits die hard .

This is not the apartheid era police. This is the firs instances for the new South african police where they have fired on protesters in this way. Have there been instance of violence and death yes and those who responsible for them got prosecuted. There are 2 current court cases where cops are facing jail time for murder. One at a student protest where some one got shot by a shot gun and the other a accidental discharge killed a teen in a search of his house. And both cas got investigated and now brought before a court of law. This event will be investigated but I can not see any body facing charges has this was a case of self defense.

Why did this get bumped. It rather old news.

[quote author=owo2000%]Ladies and gentlemen, with all the new technology available. They could still have been subdued with less force. These people had the right to ask for a raise. Death was not the solution. Where are the bean pellets?, the rubber bullets?, the lachrymal agent(Tear gas)?

This was excessive force. Let's not gloat over destruction, waste and unnecessary violence. Especially you folks that believe these folks needed to die.
Come on![/quote]The cops did use less lethal weapons . They broke up most of the group in that matter. This bunch broke through that line and in to the rear line of cops. So sorry to say it you don't know what you talking about the cops tried less lethal it failed to have a effect it did not work. Next time do some research on the matter first.

It was not that they needed to die but there actions would causes death. If the cops had not reacted it would have been them. And a put the cops life above a fools life and those men where fools to charge the line.

tope33: Protests more violent than this have taken place in Europe and other places, did they kill their citizens this way? Look again....a lot is wrong.

Real what other protesters have charged the police line with machetes with intent to kill them. They where armed and attacked the police. Most protesters even previous ones in SA never had such aggression. On the same day has this there was a services delivery protests that closed a highway no body died. Why was that the protesters did not carry any thing bigger than a rock and did not charge a through a police line(the non lethal line) in to another police line. These miners all so believed that bullets could not hurt them because of some witch doctors blessing.

snydergp: Eks nog steeds in SANDF reserwe mag en dit gani baat om my eenheid of batteljon op n publieke forum soos die te debateer nie my boeta. We both know what the state of our current SAPS are in eventhough I don't blame them for there actions they could have acted in a more mature and profesional manner and even you know this (of hoe dink jy)

Dit is nie n problem nie. Ek verstan.

The police has dropped and yes they messed up. But that not there fault they not trained for this. Of course most protesters used to disburse on one bean bag folly.

If they had been trained and given the tools needed for the task they could have prevented loss of life.

Has I said I can not blame any of those on the ground I blame the system aka the SAPS higher up's. All though I heard thing will change they just increased the time police will spend on training to from 6 months to 2 years. But what about the cops currently in the force. But no matter what wrong with the police there is no one to replace them (army shoots and dose not bother with questions) and I know a few of those cops tried to be professional but when every body runs away you join in. It not worth dying for lost cause and stand alone against that mob with less lethal weapons is a lost causes. But yes if they acted more professionally has a whole they may have stopped the blood shed but that mob looked like no amount of rubber bullets would stop them.


This is what I feel

They cops acted in self defense.

And they where not prepared for this. The fact that they had to use lethal force in self defense is my proof.

The miners got what they wanted. They wanted blood they got blood. Just it was there own.

I don't morn the dead miners I do morn the 2 cops 2 security guards and bystanders who got killed. Non of them wanted violences. And those 2 cops where lured in to a trap with the purpose to murder them. I have no sympathy for the miners non at all.

Sagamite: Trust me.

Take this as God's own truth.

Trust my words when I say: I will not feel a gaddamn thing except pleasure if the person deserves it.

You try and kill me for no reason, I will smoke you with the biggest pleasure no orgazm can give you even if you were given Kim Kardashian, Amber Rose, Keri Hilson and Meagan Good in one night to bone at the same time.

Trust me yes you will shoot (or maybe freeze up I don't know you) but you will not pleasure. If you do you are not normal. I have trained to kill and I pray I never have to use that skill. Don't get me wrong I support what the cops did but they should never been in the position to be forced to kill. So before bragging about kill people remember it is not like the tv or games it will stay with you. I know growen men who have nightmares because of what they did. At the time they felt joy but it stays with you and changes a man.

@snydergp.

There no such thing has a ex solder. If I may ask what was your unit.


I don't even blame the cops who retreated (or has the police commissioner said it "tactical withdrew") they where not prepared and that is the fault of the high ups. If I was there and my rubber bullets where not slowing them down and my comrades where "tactical withdrawing" I would join them I don't want to be hacked to death.

Here are some other facts.


259 people have where all so arrested and 6 firearms where recovered along with the hundreds of machetes, spears, knifes extra.


A lot of the miners are not even south african. So it is a african problem at a whole.

We launching a massive investigation(asked for by the police) to uncover what happened. Not to blam any body but to bring closure and to prevent a recurrences Most african country's would hush this up.

Good thing the 3rd line of cops held. If they hit the army line with it's 12.7mm guns there would have been a reel mascara. The cops with non lethal did retreat but there attacks seemed to have achieved nothing and the mob was getting close. Either way the miners where at the wrong and the police did attempt less lethal means first. Better training would have avoided loss of life but that is not the fault of the officer on the ground but the system. I doubt many would have done better. Over all I still blame the miners and there unions.

@snydergp don't call it a mascara. The media calls it that to grab headlines and because they don't know any better. 100 shot out of a few thousand is not a mascara. If the cops wanted to they could have done a real mascara. Most of the miners did not even get shot at with life ammo. Only the stupid ones where shot. The smart ones realized that fighting pissed of cops with machetes is suicide by cop.

Current casualty report. Over 30 dead over 70 wounded. Dose not mention how many of the wounded where from life rounds and how many from less lethal.

Sagamite: Are you saying, are you TELLING ME, that the SA protesters are not more dangerous then the UK rioters?

You hit the nail on the head. Those protesters where not a threat to life only property. Even in south africa cops can not shoot unless it is a body crime (rap, murder, assault extra) these where not your typical rioters.

tit: i did not see any weapons with the shot men.
it seems funny that ten rioters would charge at 100 armed policemen.
(you notice the number of police when the camera panned to the right from where most of the machine gunfire came from).

They where armed. Watching the video you can see the police removing them from the area. There where still a large number of living in that group.


Watch the video fully you can see behind the cops was a army nyla flatbed so the army was behind that line to. Luck for the miners they did not charge them. There might not have been any left.

ariyebaba: I just watched d senseless killing of peaceful demostrators on ALJAZEERA.

Peaceful? They charged through tear gas and water canons, they where armed, had killed before and where charging police lines. Where do you see peaceful

Though loss of life is sad they brought it on them. Let's look at the big picture.


The entire protest and strike is illegal. Though they do have the right to strike and march peacefully there are certain protocols and laws to be followed. Non of witch where.


There are armed. And have used there weapons. 7(+ 3 by police) people died by there hands including 2 cops and more where wounded including 1 cop. They all so stole 1 pistol and a R5 assault rifle from the dead cops. So it is fact they had fire arms.

there demands are insane. They want to earn more money than many people who had to get training. Eg a mechanic in the south african navy who has a college level degree or a student constable in the police who gets shot at.

They refused to disband peacefully when given the option.

They first braved the water canons and tear gas. This show intent. They want to get at the police.

They charged at the police lines. Who defend themselves. Once the charge was stopped they stopped shooting. They did not shoot at people fleeing from them.

In short the miners got what the deserved maybe next time they will think first before believing that some witch doctors blessing and potions can stop a 5.56mm piece of metal traveling faster than the speed of sound.

Though loss of life is sad they brought it on them. Let's look at the big picture.


The entire protest and strike is illegal. Though they do have the right to strike and march peacefully there are certain protocols and laws to be followed. Non of witch where.


There are armed. And have used there weapons. 7(+ 3 by police) people died by there hands including 2 cops and more where wounded including 1 cop. They all so stole 1 pistol and a R5 assault rifle from the dead cops. So it is fact they had fire arms.

there demands are insane. They want to earn more money than many people who had to get training. Eg a mechanic in the south african navy who has a college level degree or a student constable in the police who gets shot at.

They refused to disband peacefully when given the option.

They first braved the water canons and tear gas. This show intent. They want to get at the police.

They charged at the police lines. Who defend themselves. Once the charge was stopped they stopped shooting. They did not shoot at people fleeing from them.

In short the miners got what the deserved maybe next time they will think first before believing that some witch doctors blessing and potions can stop a 5.56mm piece of metal traveling faster than the speed of sound.

femmyb: Why do we even need an army self, its not like we are going to be fighting any wars anytime soon, i say disband these uncouth touts and thugs masquerading as soldiers, f**k em, they just beat a family man to death in lagos because he allegedly broke their vehicle side mirror in traffic, its on the punch newspaper website, bunch of freaking idiots. The right to bear arms will stop these foolishness, a armed society is a polite society.

Are you on drugs. Your country is 1 step away from a civil war and has for a war between nations. In 1935 no one in france or UK could imagine a war with germany 4 years later they at war.

mko abiola: Are u a Nigerian in the south Africa Navy? If yes hw is their mode of entry d Navy?
What is ur experience?hw do u get shortlisted for SA Navy,share ur xperience wit dose inyterested.

No I am south african. There is nothing wrong with your navy. I have heard it is a professional navy only bad thing about it from what I know is your flag ship is dated and needs to be replaced.

This is a sign of poor discipline, training and control.

I am in the south african navy and during the basic training we had courses that had nothing to do with war. They where to make us better people on the whole some where how to look after your money and budget others where conflict resolution. And the part where we learn how to deal with people you are to only use force if the other person uses force and once they can't fight back you stop. But civilians must under stand when the military is busy with a operation don't interrupt them and when they give you a order obey it and don't get violent or aggressive.

I agree that there was no reason for him to be present or even send someone in his place, a letter would have been enough. But the reason he gave is enough for him to be recalled. You are supposed to represent the entire country and all her people. Should a Christian paramedic not help some one because he is Muslim.

No I am against it. And if any body tried to implement it he would have a short life.

[quote author=Ki-Katanga]It is, but the numbers haven't changed much, and the population hasn't all gone back to university to re-skill.

And the schools aren't good, not compared to the west.

That may not seem like a fair comparison, but to me education is the most important thing a government can do. I can't talk much about South Africa, but I can say that I've met as many South Africans at the LSE as I have Nigerians and ZA's a third the size and has prestigious Unis like Durban Tech that mean there's not so much need to travel.[/quote]I agree education is the most imported thing for the government to spend on.

2 years is a long time. A lot can change.


Would you say the public education in nigeria is of a acceptable level in nigeria.

I wonder what was wrong to cause 3 helicopters to go down. If it is maintenance there is a big problem. SA offers a upgrade program for the Mil24 it is a complete renovation. If they can afford it Uganda should look in to it.



May those who died rest in piece.

Talking to a American friend of mine gave me a idea for a solution to the Unity problem.


United States of Nigeria

A breakaway will cause war. But if different tribal regions became semi independent states but still under a federal government they can be separate but nigeria could still be united.

One big problem with this. All the Aggressive gun owning christian people.