₦airaland Forum

Nobody would complain if it was against a state actor. That is, a country with defined borders, army, The Palestinian case is more akin ( I didnt say the same) to the Niger Delta and Darfur.

To put it in perspective, the last time the Nigerian army was unleashed full force against an insurgency was against the delta, under Abacha. Food for thought on the morality of what Israel is doing.

[quote author=dayokanu link=topic=212317.msg3284252#msg3284252 date=1230625582][/quote]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-defies-freeze-on-illegal-settlements-793685.html
http://www.imemc.org/article/58050

Unlike you, I will treat this with a FAIR hand. An increasingly growing group recognizes the double standard of letting private Israeli citizens bully legal land owners with the help of the army while preaching peace. You probably remember protests against Sharon when he tried to clear the West Bank of illegal settlements. Well, the Jewish settlers are proving to be adept spoilers in the political process even though they are in a minority. Slowly but surely, they want to drag Israel into an all out confrontation based on their interpretation of the Talmud.

The average Israeli is ready to make concessions and take away any moral power Hamas might lay claim to. I find it funny that any African would be on the side of aggressive settlers.

I chuckle at the gloating going on in this thread. God dey

I can understand the OPs view point. It is obvious Yar Adua and the northern oligarchy are not taking other nNigerians serious, and think its business as usual. The current prez is a huge dissapointment.

Unfortunately, unwinding what the british did several decades ago is nowhere as straightforward as you think. There are deep fissures within even Igbo and Yoruba. The only thing keeping them under is the common threat of northern dominance (the same way the Abacha, IBB threats kept a yoruba/igbo discord at bay).

I have zero faith in the current generation ruling Nigeria, regardless of tribe. These guys are hopeless, greedy buffoons (and I'm trying to be civil). The best bet we have is to chase these guys out as they die off. Why? Splitting in the 21st century is self-suicide. Europe has realized it can only have leverage as a union. Same with the BRIC countries, even Russia. If we start splitting up now, our plunder will make the earlier one by Europeans look like child's play.

Sanity - Life really is simple here, as simple as you want it to be. No ebi drama, no crazy relatives, you get to associate with sane people like you
Stability - I can count on electricity, not worry about armed robbers, expect my taxes to be used to keep the city in shape
Social life - you get to meet people of all backgrounds, different ideas, and opportunities. The best and the brightest all over the world come here.

If I can get no. 2, I can swallow going back home. The rest will follow naturally

I met a Gambian on Lag once, and there was no way I could have know he wasn't Yoruba if he hadnt said so. The facial features werent really different and his accent was spot on Nigerian. Whoever this dude on the bus is, he's lived in naija for a while. He singlehandedly took on 3 men verbally, LOL

idiopathic:
Sagamite,
I am puzzled at the way some Africans support the Arabs blindly despite their numerous atrocities against us. I can remember vividly how some Muslims in the north were protesting, killing and burning churches in the aftermath of the Arab Israeli war.
But, these same northerners were silent when Arab-backed militias are killing, uprooting Africans from their ancestral lands.
Sagamite, can you compare the way Africans are treated in the west compared to the Arab lands.

Are you suggesting that because you have been poorly treated by Arabs, the palestinians deserve the same? If maltreating Darfuris is wrong, then maltreating Palestinians must be wrong too.

I urge every one on this thread to read up a little on the facts.

There is no doubt Hamas actions were dumb and illegal, but many Israel supporters do not realize that even today (2008), land is still being forcibly taken. You can be a palestinian and have a title deed to land, and the next day jewish settlers arrive, and just start building on your land. You dare to speak out, and you meet the Israeli army.

The people in Gaza cant even escape to other countries  or trade to better them selves. they have been hemmed in with walls,  separated form the West Bank on land no one is even disputing is theirs! How can this be justice. Does anyone here really think this is a Godly or fair thing to do.

Israel loves the Hamas-Fatah split, because they hope while they are distracted, they can consolidate more land, then decimate Hamas so that a corrupt and ineffective Fatah comes back into power. This is naked colonialism, in the 21st century.

I guess you win then. Others are doing it, so it must be ok. Birdman isnt talking about the Kurds, so it must be ok . Its alright to punish a whole populace for the actions of a few.

As for Egyptian actions, it is well known Palestinians have no real allies, mostly of their own doing. This is why they are a pushover, not just for Israel, but other Arabs too. But only is Israel is still actively taking land, and punishing Palestinians at the same time. Common decency suggests a less broad approach, but it apparently isnt going to happen.

1. Because the innocent civilians did nothing wrong.

You said it all. Basic human decency.

@ birdman,

So if you were the Israeli leader, what would you do?

Move into the sea the way Hamas, Syria, Hezballah and Iran want?

No. Deal with it the way other sane nations are doing. Did India have to attack Islamabad? Were we in Nigeria not concerned when it seemed the army was punishing innocent civilians in the delta?
Why equate Hamas to the Palestinian people?

4 Play:
There is a major difference between the assembly plants being built in the Middle-East and the cutting-edge technology that Israel is reknowned for. Nigeria had the former in the 70s oil boom - PAN, ANAMCO, Volkswagen, Philips, e.t.c but it is the latter that is necessary to make the leap to industrialised nations.

Where does Middle-East cash come from? Certainly doesn't drop from the sky, it comes from Westerners paying for oil, the surplus is recycled into US treasuries. Think of it, no Western consunmer, no cash.

Democracy developing in the Middle-East? Examples please.
Upper hand? You are the one chronicling all the wealth of the Middle-East and still suggesting Israel has the upper hand. How is the Middle-East going to bridge the military gap when they can't even develop a world-class rifle? The biggest source of weapons for these Gulf states you are proud of is the US.

If Western human talent moves to the Middle-East, that is not the same as the Middle-East developing its own talent. If there is a showdown, they will simply get up and leave exposing the hubris that remains.

If you want a modern day example of how a third world nation can advance within the span of one generation, check out Brazil, China, India. Sure, they dont have the cutting edge tech today. But they will tomorrow. 50 years ago, Japan was struggling to catch up with the US in video technology. They were definitely no match. Fast forward today, there is no viable video technology company in the US that can stand Japan or Korea for that matter.

I urge you to look into what it takes to start a semiconductor foundry. There is nothing literally more technically intensive. Heck China is losing gobs of money, despite stealing technolgies from other foundries. That Dubai is becoming a player in this field is nothing to sneeze at.

Do you think they are putting this cash into US treasuries because they love the US? As you well know, treasuries are debt, and they are making interest on it. Like credit card companies, they know it is better to have someone in debt to you and only be able to pay you back he interest. There will always be demand for oil. Its not just for driving. Its also plastics and just about every synthetic material you can think of.

I'll repeat because you seem to be skipping the theme over and over again. The issue is TIME. If you are Israel, time is not on your side. Rabin saw this. Even the fiery Ariel Sharon saw this.

4 Play:
Gulf success is success built on one thing, oil. This is a transient success.  The Gulf's fortunes is inextricably linked to the price of oil and such fortunes are hollow.

They know this. Which is why they are diversifying like crazy. Heck, Dubai just signeed an agreement to build a fab for AMD. In the semi industry, this is huge news. Same thing with financials. Cash is king, even with the low price per barrel of oil.

Real success is internal. Establishing a viable and robust democracy, strong domestic technological base and a diversified industrialised economy. None of these are present in the Gulf. Ironically, Gulf states compete amongst themselves to be the host of US military installations and will be loath to forsake the security of the military umbrella that the US offers. Fact is, they are more scared of Iran than Israel.

You might want to lend a closer ear to the nature of the democracy developing in the middle east. They have managed to place several good leaders in power succesively, something we here in Nigeria are still pining about. Their political process will not mature into western style democracy. They have found a mix of secularism and religion that is giving them stability. Like someone said in another thred, if you back is not bent, no one will ride it,  even Iran

Not an appealing picture. A cross between the ''overpopulated'' fragile states such as Egypt and Gulf states possibly rid of their one true wealth - oil.

Nope, see above.

You contradict yourself, if the Middle-East is so powerful, why the pathetic cries of powerlessness?

Pathetic the cries may be, but it makes sense to deal while you still have a significant upper hand, no?

The Middle-East remains wealthy so long as foreigners, whether Americans or Europeans, continue to buy its commodities and its tourists visit its attractions. It has no technological or scientific edge and remains at the mercy of its oil customers.

This can change quickly. Talent follows capital and in today's world, even talent is liquid. The govt that can get its business in order will get the edge. As the wall streeters whose untouchable jobs are now based in Mumbai and Beijing, because that is where the action is. Or the high tech jobs flowing to China,, because that is where the action is.

some of the replies are laughable. You are missing the point. Hamas was/is wrong. Question is Is Israel's approach viable.

Davidylan, you mention Israel's nuclear deterrent. Finally, you have opened your eyes. If Iran goes nuclear, Israel's military superiority becomes meaningless, JUST LIKE YOU INFERRED. You cant just ignore and bully them as you please anymore.

It has always been about resources, more than land, true. Israel is the best proposition now. It probably wont be in the future. The Arab nations are slowly but surely turning themselves into tech and business powerhouses. Even the recent financial crises helps more than hurts them as they are buying and consolidation on the cheap.

Picture the middle east 40 yrs from now. The top 2/3 economic powerhouses are Arab. 90% of the region's resources are Arab. And the have military might at par with anyone else in the region. Israel is still strong militarily, but much less resource rich, population the size of one Arab megacity and only the 4th or 5th strongest economy. You, as the head of state of some country X, interested in having a share of this region's wealth by trade, who will you side with in policy issues? Want to guess who Europe and the US will side with too? See why Israel's heavy handedness wont get anywhere?

@4Play

When it comes to nations, trend matters more than current facts. Sure Israel whooped them a generation ago, and rightfully so. But there is a reason Rabin, and even Sharon were willing to make larger concessions to Palestinians. The tide is definitely against Israel long term. When Pakistanis hit Mumbai, India did not go on a bombing spree in the capital of Pakistan.  Israel did what it did because it could. How about a generation from now? What then?

@Davidylan

Stop distracting from the issue at hand. Just because you didnt hear the Sudanese women (or me) protest other atrocities doesnt mean we didnt, or supported it. The fact that you have painted it more as a religious issue makes me understand where you are coming from.  You sound like the Christian wing that thinks Israel can do no wrong, being God's people and all. Am I right?

In another 30-40 years, as Arab nations get stronger militarily and economically, this move will look really foolish. You'd think Israeli leaders would hash something out NOW, while they still have bargaining chips.

I know what a carpet bomb is, which is why 200 people are dead and 700 injured.

And you really cannot absolve the so-called civilians of complicity in this matter. I would not settle my family on the first floor of a building where Hamas is operating in the basement; unless of course, I plan to aid them or expect a Matyr's treatment when the eventualities happen.

Sure. But is it a crime to have your children walking to school? or Attending graduation in other  parts of the city.

Following mid-morning bombings, in which some 60 warplanes struck more than 50 targets over the span of just a few minutes, Hamas fired several dozen rockets, killing one Israeli.

Israeli air strikes continued sporadically throughout the day and into the night.

At what point is force excessive against a mostly civilian population.

4 Play:
Is it? They used ''freaking jets''. . . .  .lets see, is there any evidence that if the IDF sent in its army with tanks, the strikes will be more surgical?

Israel hit Hamas targets. This is not like in the movies, you know those Rambo/Arnie ones, where the enemies' military camps are isolated from civilian neighbourhoods, preferably in isolated pristine deserts.

This is the real world and in the real world, no hit on Hamas targets is 100% guaranteed to exclude civilian casualties. Unless you are suggesting Israel just fold its hand in despair, it retains the right to strike back at its enemy irrespective of where the enemy chooses to locate its installations.

Even under the hardliner Sharon, they used tanks. You know where the culprits live, and they dont have any power to stop you. Go get them. It has worked for all previous Israeli governments.  Why carpet bomb a whole city now. This is the definition of a war crime.

Davidylan,
So you are putting the nation of Israel on the same moral plane as Hamas. If Hamas can do it, then its ok if Israel does it.  At least you have admitted in your words that Hamas and Israel are both sides of the coin.

From the same news source ,

Children on their way home from school and policemen parading for a graduation ceremony were the principal victims of a bloody few hours that left the territory in flames.

You know why? They used freaking jets! How do you hit a neighbourhood where there are civilians with jets. Unless you really dont care how many bystanders you hit.

WOW. When was the last time a nation bombed innocent civilians for the actions of a few. This is worse than apartheid.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5404501.ece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM15T_qgY5k&eurl=http://news.google.com/

eh, huxley take am easy o. b4 nairlanders declare holy war on your head

even mammy water dey acknowledge God. Na wa o

tpia:
get over yourself.

The thread is about African men. a la thread title!

last time I checked, Nigeria isnt the only country in Africa.

It should be the only country, I kid.

Nigerian/African whatever, There are lots of cultured African men/women out there. If the men/women you keep meeting are that culturally backward, its time to look in the mirror

Another thread on Nigerian men? damn, I think I know what nagging feels like

Great post, okunoba.

How can the US financial crisis lead to an increase in demand for the dollar? I am confused.

The US economy will rebound, which is what nations are banking on. Better to buy US treasuries and have the greatest nation on earth in perpetual debt and keep earning interest. Unfortunately, the US is massively over-leveraged and no one knows how much worthless "assets" are being held by financial institutions. Plus the Fed is printing money like there is no tomorrow. At some point, people will realize the dollar is almost worthless and the dollar will probably suffer a mortal blow, unless someone can cook up a good sized war before then. The kind that will render China, India impotent for another decade or so.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/drillingtohell.htm

http://christiannews.co.nz/2005/the-siberian-scientists-who-drilled-into-hell/

http://www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.asp

Set yourself free.

It was so terrible seeing this woman and hearing her cries as the worms voraciously ate her flesh. There was a metal plate embedded in her chest that could not be destroyed by the flames. It read, "I am here for fornication." In the same manner of her sin, this woman was forced to fornicate in hell with a very disgusting and fat snake. The snake had huge thorns around its body, about 6-8 inches long. The snake penetrated her private parts and traveled up her body to her throat. When the snake entered her, she started to scream.

Sign of the times, the church has lost discernment. Anyone in tune with the bible can tell that this story is a fabrication from hell. The aim is to spread fear. Why? Fear cant prevent you from sinning. It makes it worse.
eh, what do I know,

tobbyjohn:
hmm i would ordinarily have ignored this sort of thread but for those u are misleading i would that they have a chance to hear scriptural truth uve got to be careful when u talk about men of GOD and i am very serious. i am saying this because biblically those who have had dire consequences. some even paid the ultimate price. if u are truly a bible believing christian as u claim then u would know about not callin men of GOD names but obviously u are ignorant of this truth of GOD's word so I'm telling u now to and study about that now I WISH U WELL

N.B also it is very biblical to pay tithe and offerings Abraham the father of faith paid tithe to Melchizedek king of salem check out malachi 3: 10- end GOD BLESS YOU

I think this is the unquestioning fanaticism and intellectual laziness the thread author was talking about. If we follow your thinking, is anyone surprised our churches are the most fervent you will find, yet our members are some of the most morally bankrupt people you will come across, especially when it comes to money. If "men of God" cannot be held accountable for shady practices, why are we surprised that the most notorious rise to the top in our churches.