₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
My dear buda you were the one who countered my argument that the gospel god is a wimp, it behoves you to show your basis for such a counter.

I never disputed your God is a wimp statement! The word used in the Bible is "meek and gentle", and I even gave you biblical ammunition for it. My one objection is you assuming wimpishness is a negative attribute. It isn't, necessarily bad to wimpishly turn the other cheek.

johnydon22:
That is to first assume depriving someone of what belongs to them is wrong. Lol

So, when I come to your home and clear it out and deprive you of all you've worked really hard to accumulate, you would not mind?

johnydon22:
Not liking something isn't same thing as that thing being wrong, is it?

I guess we should just put it to the test shall we? Send me your address please.

ABCthings:
And I said killing is wrong just because we believe it's wrong.

No! There's more to it than that, surely. To start with, unless the killed desires to be killed, you'd be depriving someone of something that belongs to that person. Also, if killing weren't wrong you would not mind me killing you, which I'm sure you would! I'm reckoning you'd defend yourself if I tried to kill you, and that's evidence you don't like being killed.

Ihedinobi3:
I take very serious exception to straw man fallacies because they are essentially lies. If I make an argument, it may not be what you like, but it is what you have to respond to. You can't really just make something up and tell me to defend it.

Predestination does not "posit that the future is inexorably locked into place". It means that God has guaranteed creature free will with His Decree.

Sure enough, there is no possibility of a future that God does not know completely, but the future is the result of free will choices made by moral creatures who have been enabled by God to make those choices.

As I have explained elsewhere, for every moral creature, their future is wholly dependent on their free will choice of the moment. They have an absolutely real opportunity to pick any option they please between submitting willingly to God and rebelling against Him. These two alternatives are completely real and the ability to choose between them is just as real. The only thing of interest in the matter of predestination is that God knows what each moral creature will want to choose given a real opportunity to do so, so He decreed that each one will choose exactly that thing that they want. That means that each moral creature and their environment are wired to ensure that when the moral creature is given a real opportunity to make a choice, it will choose precisely what it wants without anything preventing that choice from being made.

In other words, as I said before, God's Decree guarantees creature free will.

So, no, the future is not fixed although God knows everything that is going to happen and is actively empowering it: we are actively creating the future with our choices everyday.

Take exception to whatever you want please, you have the freewill to do so. Strawman is when one raises points to argue that are not in what is presented, and lying is when one presents falsehoods, neither of which you've shown me to do and essentially what you've done.

We've posted what is meant by predestination (destiny known before hand) and predetermination (choices made beforehand), both imply a knowledge of what would happen before it happens, which negates freewill, as you've described it. If one has freewill, then any notion of a future being predetermined or predestined is null and void since both words imply a foreknowledge prior to one making that choice however you wish to twist them to fit.

There is a way they do fit, but you are welcome to just say you don't know instead of presenting contradictions and claiming you've explained!

LordReed:
You've not showed to me how the god is not a wimp.

But I don't intend to, my Lord! Especially if you cannot see for yourself. If I did, you next ask me to show you God expecting me to whip God out of my knickers to show you!

What you likely need is spat on mud rubbed in your eyes so you can see. Or was I not blind too just a couple of months ago and now see, if a little, my Lord?

Predetermination. The verb predetermine means "determine in advance," like when you predetermine how much money you will spend on your friend's birthday present to make shopping easier. Predetermine comes from the Latin word praedeterminare, from prae, meaning “beforehand,” and determinare, meaning “limit, settle.”

Both Predestination and Determinism posit that the future is inexorably locked into place. Predestination posits that God has determined all that will happen. ... The only difference is that determinism allows for randomness. Determinism implies that events are caused but those events are not sequentially fixed.

TVSA:
Lord buda

Lol!

Ojiniman:
I'm a published author on okadabooks (African online bookstore), Amazon (Worldwide), Smashwords (worldwide distributor) and D2D (worldwide distributor)

I began by writing fiction in my real name and publishing on nairaland here and okodabooks. That i went bankrupt in 2016-18 despite being a bestselling author with quite a number of fans on both platforms should tell you a lot. I have never met an author who writes and sell his books strictly in Nigeria who has made enough money to buy a car or rent a good house and pay his bills.

It was another Nigerian author that saying 'Naija no dey read' introduced me to the secrets of publishing on foreign bookstores all of which are based in the USA. The white man reads, he'll read anything and as long as you are good in what your write he will buy it.

Here, a few Nigerians will read and buy, yes, but only if its Nigeriana film. If its educative you are wasting you time. If write a blog post and monitor visitors to it via country location you will notices that while only 3 or 4 Nigerians will read it, dozens of Kenyans and South Africns will read it. After a while the Americans will come and if they like they will keep coming.
Go and ask any blogger what i have said.

If all fowls are clucking about for scarce food, some will still be full up.

I once read an article in the papers about Nigerians not reading which incensed me and propelled me to ship books to the library in the Orolu Kingdom. One day, ten years after my first shipment, I sat outside the library and a little girl, not yet two and barely able to speak sat with me rhyming what obviously was ABC which brought tears to my eyes. I teach all the young kids see, and she was the youngest of the lot. I said to myself that if anyone had told me the rhyming of this little girl would be my reward for shipping books home for ten years I would have told them to fuq off! Three years ago, about 20 years after my first shipment, I was opportuned to spend a long period in the Orolu Kingdom and lots of people would come to thank me saying if it weren't for the books that I supplied to the library they wouldn't have been any to learn to be able to read.

My point is, scatter your seeds with no care where they fall. Some will fall by the roadside and be devoured by birds, some will fall on rocky ground and be scorched in the sun, some will fall amongst thorns and choke to death and wither and die, and some will fall into good soil and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.

I tell you the truth, a person of power is growing.

TVSA:
I do not blame god in this. I blame the writer of the script that was played in the old testament. They did a bad job. That is why my first question on this thread was if god can sin

Thank you very much. I promise that I will try harder.

LordReed:
The statements are so passive I wanna puke. LoL.

So the thief gets free reign until some unknown time when the so called sheep are gathered? Is that how shepherds keep sheep? Wait until some undefined time before they are secure? Or they take action as the need arises?

Abeg please remember this is just an exercise o don't take it literally. LoL

There really is grave error in taking parts of scripture and not the whole of it, my Lord. It's like grabbing an elephant's leg and thinking it's a tree! And using John, the most illiteral and mystical Gospel of them all, does not make for easy understanding at all, I daresay.

So, let's try another way, shall we. What Jesus is claiming in John 10 is anyone who follows what he taught would not be harmed. That doesn't mean one wouldn't fall ill or die or even be eaten by wolfs, but that the Lord will be your shepherd and you will be given (or at least, have), everything that you need.

I just got off the phone to a supplier of a device that I require to keep me functioning. I've been using this device for three years now only to find out today that every couple of weeks that I place an order for it I get product worth £600. Imagine if I had to pay that twice a month out of my own earnings! Payment for it comes out of the cloud, is what it seems like.

This morning, I got a letter from my bank claiming I was in debt for 2800k. I rolled over in bed and fell asleep since I had been up all night, then about 2pm I made a call to those who pay me and got fobbed off, so I sent an email to them instead. The response I got read, "sorry buda, we appear to have made an error", and they paid me the 2800k plus another grand to say they are very sorry. Can you see how I could very easily claim "The Lord is my shepherd who gives me everything I require"?

But, okay, none of this proves anything I guess, except if "being shepherded by God" means allowing wisdom to rule ones life, that's if it's accepted that I might come close. I can assure you that I wisely dealt with what I was faced with, not worrying about a thing because I was wise enough not to because - and I must say perhaps here - I had Wisdom in my life.

Now, imagine if Jesus Christ meant Wisdom, after all, this was one attribute he exhibited all through his life, be it real or mythical, can you perhaps see the benefit here? I'm sure you'd not claim I wasn't at least a tenth worths wise from what you know of me, or would you, my Lord?

One must see past the religious junk that cloaks what is called God and Jesus Christ, is my point or one would not understand the KoG. And it's got nothing to do with believing as some claim, but understanding and knowing what is meant by it all, a thing I find to be scarce amongst the multitude. I do put it to you all the same that blessed are some, and to them is the Kingdom of God.

I've tried to make this self explanatory, but would quite understand if my point is unclear, for as I said here, I am but a child with childish ways and thoughts who sees dimly through dark glass, yet to become a full grown adult. I tell you the truth that every day I grow older and leave my childish ways. You wouldn't argue I'd be grown up someday. Surely you wouldn't, my Lord.

LordReed:
You read John 10 right? Is there any where there that the god says it will prevent the thief from entering into the sheepfold?

I did read John 10, my Lord, and think the following qualifies as "preventing the thief from entering into the sheepfold":

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

And,

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Or do you not think so?

TVSA:
so it is either of the two ; 1.) God was misinterpreted by the old testament prophets 2.) he has changed from whom he used to be.

I will like to go with the first option. Looking at the teachings of Jesus as you've said, he never portrayed god in a wicked way or in bad light. And Jesus didn't take after the old testament god in the scripture. Despite the believe that he's the same as god. So I believe all those old prophet didn't really know god and the understanding of some that god can kill has already been flawed by the teachings and deeds of Jesus.

Its a more plausible explanation, surely. And even the second point, in a way, though, not so much that God changed, but I was a child who saw through dark glass and thought as a child. When I become a grownup, I will put away childish [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13%3A9-12&version=KJV]things[/url], I promise. Yet, even then, I may still only know in part.

If only I knew in a whole from the very beginning. But why blame God for my own inadequacies, stupidity and blindness, TVSA, and not blame me?

Yet, an opposing view goes something like this:

[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A46-49&version=NKJV]46[/url] “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

Though, not opposing James, who I suggest you may have misunderstood, him being a "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A14-26&version=NKJV]show[/url] me your faith with works" sort of guy.

Hermes019:
If this is what you truly believe than why did u create that thread on clones ?

Funny, isn't he.

TVSA:
Jesus portrayed god as one gentle and cool guy who doesn't take revenge and fight back. But that was a lie, the god of old was the opposite of what Jesus described.

I put it to you that you are holding on to the elephants trunk and using it to describe what is really there. If you read the Bible from the beginning and turn page to the end you would notice how God as depicted appears to evolve from a wrathful quick to anger God into a turn the other cheek God. Might it not be that those who describe God in the beginnings also made the error you make in their description and Jesus had a better understanding?

Consider the chapter from which you got your "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." By the time you get to that page you'd likely notice how unangry and unwrathful God has become to the extent that God no more destroys even though the humans on earth by then were many times more evil prone that when God was turning people to salt drowning them in floods and just about having them killed on a whim to a loving God who so loved the world that God sent the only begotten son to be spat on and ridiculed and nailed a two by four. If that were the old God, I'm sure we'd all have been toast, don't you think, considering how so much more evil we are now.

I wonder if you would seriously consider a person who does what Jesus taught is as bad as you claim. If I turned the other cheek when you slapped me and loved you because you live next door to me and gave what I had to those who have not, would you really think I was so bad even if I claimed I learnt to be so from a myth?

I also wonder if you take your notion of God from the depictions and acts of some too. Do tell.

Zither:
You're welcome, budaatum. God will increase you in strength and wisdom so that you become, not only his fisher of men, but also his leader of men, a workman not ashamed and rightly dividing the word of truth into abundant fruit for the kingdom. That's my prayer for you, budaatum, and amen to that.

Even when we disagree on a matter or subject it does not make a dent on my opinion and perception of you. God bless. One love.

And God bless you too, always. Amen.

TVSA:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." the most hypocritical saying ascribed to Jesus

How so?

solite3:
read the OP again

Not only have I read your op three times, but I've also been to it's source and read it twice, and if you'd credited that source from the beginning, I perhaps would have understood why you have not been capable of defending what you posted!

Anyway, and with no further ado, here is someones opinion on the subject. Hopefully, it is of one who's opinion you find favour in.

[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A46-49&version=NKJV]46[/url] “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

May the grace of the Lord be ours. And thanks tons for your time.

Ihedinobi3:
I try to answer every question as clearly as possible, but I understand that I am not always as clear as I want to be. So I appreciate specific questions like the one you asked here to help me try to clarify whatever is still fogged for whatever reason.

Regarding your specific request here, choice does not purchase salvation. When a gift is offered, we can accept it or reject it. In the matter of salvation, this is infinite times more true.

Salvation is from the just consequence of our rebellion against God. Every human being except the Lord Jesus is such a rebel and is condemned to the Second Death after this life. Or, that was the case until the Lord Jesus paid the Price of our sin and made us free from that consequence.

Now, although He has purchased our eternal pardon with His Spiritual Death on the Cross, no one is forced to accept that pardon. Everyone is perfectly free to reject it, if they prefer to. It is a most curious thing that anyone would, of course, but the vast majority of human beings from the beginning of human history until its end has, is, and will reject it. The reason is that rebellion against God comes from arrogance, a very insane but intoxicating belief that a creature can depose its Creator and rise to take His Place.

This is what I meant. We all choose whether we will be saved or not, but we cannot pay for Salvation, since the price for it is too high for any human being, nay, any creature at all to bear. Only God Himself could pay it, and He did in Christ Jesus.

As for your WhatsApp request, please excuse my reluctance. I much prefer emailing. If you wish, you could email me at Ihedinobi3@gmail.com.


CC: budaatum

Those two bolds categorically stand in opposition to predestination which in theology is "the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul."

If a thing is predestined, one does not have a choice, is the paradox, surely?

Zither:
Indeed, budaatum. I perceive spiritual maturity in you. This is the quality that indicates the mix of a reader, a thinker, and a teacher in that order blended nicely in following God. I may be wrong but I'm known to say how I feel. Not flattering you. Merely stating facts.

I take your word on faith whilst praying that I live up to your view of me. Please don't hesitate to let me know when my fruit is bad. And thanks tons. I love you.

bobowaja:
Hardmirror..... Come back o.

Come and drag some more.

I saw those stupidity, especially from jesusjr and one Buddha guy like that. I just don't hv the strength to type and counter them.

Oh come on! You just need to go build up in a gym and you'd have all the strength in the world, though, you shouldn't need so much strength to deal with stupidity.

ChristisGod:
Thanks for the time, what is not clear is the lack of clarity generally,

In one breath, you say men don't merit salvation since it is a free gift of God, in another you say it is our choice, please clarify.

That was precisely my understanding too Ihedinobi3. Do please clarify.

Zither:
Amyblessed

Just let him rant...At a time, it dawned on me that reasoning with him is a fool's errand.

Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7%3A16-20&version=NKJV]them[/url].

Zither:
God will help us....however, that depends on if he recognizes that he, as with every other person, needs the help. Nevertheless, amen to your prayer.

There is choice in the matter. One must choose to become as a child to be born again. But as is said, it is harder for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for the self righteous to enter the KoG. Still, amen.

Are believers righteous? Is the question you asked.

Perhaps after all we've said, you can give me a simple answer. Yes or no, will do, if you can.

TVSA:
and this God is the moral standard

The image of god being portrayed here by op is a moral standard? I bet you if an ordinary human being behaves like op's god we'd very likely all gang up and bash its head in with a rock!

LordReed:
Of course its not literal, were you reading my post as literal?

I think I might have. Though, anyway I look at what you wrote still doesn't quite work, but I'm very certain the errors is mine and not my smart Lord's.

So, enlighten me please so I too can be smart like you. Which god waits for wolves to break in? Or how exactly was the following meant:

LordReed:
Even the gospel god is a wimp. It waits for wolves to break in and enter to kill steal and destroy. What powerful well meaning shepard waits for wolves to come to his door instead of hiring hunters to go kill the wolves?

LordReed:
Read John 10.

My Lord! We both know you are way more smarter than this! Even many of the Jews who were there listening to him said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?” Does that not show Jesus was not talking literally, or at the least, wasn't taken literally by those there hearing him? He sure wasn't literally describing God now, or do you want to take the position that he was?

LordReed:
I am not sure that is wimpy behaviour, especially if the person clearly has the power to rip you apart.

One doesn't turn the other cheek then rip apart!

amyblessed:
Christ and the Apostles never behaved this

You are indeed blessed! Can you believe the same individual started the threads on the following very interesting topics?

Jesus Is Only Your Lord, If You Keep His Word

How Many Christians Are True Jesus Disciples?

It's Easier To Destroy Than To Build

Believing In Jesus Without Obeying His Words' Like Building A House On Sand

A True Jesus' Disciple Is Better Than A Righteous Christian

I can only assume the spirit that is in him is holy but his ego gets in the way of it manifesting.

johnydon22:
We are not talking about legality dude, the premise remains on its morality

Then your question simply becomes, would I rip out my child's heart and put it in myself? And my response is, hopefully not. But I would go to India though, if not for the education I mentioned in my previous.

johnydon22:
You own the power, think an absolute authority more suited than ones wielded by slave masters. It can think, but what exactly can it do?

Slave master? Today? You do know William Wilberforce will be lobbying in Parliament for the abolishment of my clone master rights and whole countries will be in civil war trying to abolish my clone master rights patrolling in gunboats trying to free my clone, right Damn, there'd likely be people outside my house chanting "free clone", and that's if they don't blow me up first!

johnydon22:
Assume there is a God, it comes to you and go like " Dude, i want to kill you now" and you are like "fuq off, i am my own boss"

Isn't that laughable?q

Why is it laughable? It's not as if God comes to me everyday so I can easily identify God when it does come to me! It could be Balaams ass talking, or a bush burning for all I know, and I'm just tripping!

"Fuq off" is precisely what I'd say first after laughing my head off until I've checked its identity papers and figured it really is God then I'd be on my knees begging God "Please", and asking God, "why, now" with tears in my eyes; blood even, if it would make a difference, but I'd still try!

johnydon22:
Actually, it has no more say than a chicken telling you to fuq off.

Then it's a chicken and not a clone of me because if it was a clone of me it would tell me to fuq off, but since it isn't me and is only a chicken then ripping its heart out and putting it inside me would be equally as moral (or immoral, if you're a veggy) to ripping the heart out of a chicken and eating it and last time I checked, chicken is yummy, so there.

IAmSabrina:
Romans 8: 28-30
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Ihedinobi3

I can't believe this! And to justify my disbelieve, my position is that Scripture is not God! It's at best, a very bad image of God, though a very valuable one, but still an image. And we all know what we shouldn't be doing to images, I hope.