₦airaland Forum

Bidam: Yeah let the culprit answer for himself. You are not his heart are you? Two nairalanders called him to order when he was using subtility and schemely using scripture in a bid to defend his evil schemes.

I can understand you rising to his defense. But sorry!! On the last day every man will answer for himself.So Hold your peace on this one abeg.

Actually I don't care if you guys turn this to another battlefield. It will bring more traffic and Seun will smile to the bank.

My comment was to put things in proper perspective so it doesn't become overly distorted.

From this your comment, I'm glad I did.

Joagbaje: This manipulation has been on for years I wonder why , despite all the proof we gave from scriptures to clarify the difference. .

You're right. The manipulation by spiritual businessmen has been on for years. The format for Levitical tithe administration is reproduced below

Deut 14-28-29
'At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, a[b]nd shalt lay it up within thy gates[/b]: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.'

This is what God instituted. The Levite, Fatherless, Stranger and the widow MUST be fed from it. Any other practice remains a fraud.

Image123: This is either ignorance or sheer dishonesty. Mal 3:8-11 is not referring to Deut 14:22-29. Deut 14:22-29 talks about the tithe eaten by the individual and of the tithe given at home every three years. Malachi talks of the tithe brought to the storehouse in the temple. That is, brought and given to the temple workers or what is called the priesthood.

You're the one talking ignorantly or dishonestly here my bro.

Deut 14-28-29
'At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, a[b]nd shalt lay it up within thy gates[/b]: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.'

When this command was given, God expressly stated that the tither should keep this particular tithe in storage at his house and distribute to the LEVITE, STRANGER, FATHERLESS and WIDOW that are around him. As at the time Solomon built the temple, this was still the practice. However by the time of Hezekiah, the people had developed an apathy to the law completely because of the idolatrous kings they'd had so they were neglecting the law including tithing. This made Hezekiah to moot the idea of storehouses for tithes for the very first time in the history of Isreal thereby modifying the law of Moses(2 Chr 31:11-12) start from verse 4 to get full gist. This is the case except you want to tell us Hezekiah instituted a different tithe from Mosaic tithes all by himself. This became the new practice for the triennial tithe and it carried over into the new Temple after the return from exile in Babylon

Neh 10:37-38
'And that we should bring the first fruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the CHAMBERS of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the LEVITES, that the same LEVITES might have the TITHES in all the cities of our TILLAGE.38.And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the CHAMBERS, into the treasure house'

This was what Malachi refered to and it started in Deut 14:28-29.

You can even see in the reference that tithes only come from the cities of TILLAGE(i trust you know tillage refers to land cultivation?), in other words, farming cities. This proves again that tithes only come from farm produce.

You cannot quote a passage on two types of tithe and claim that These verses below remains the true and only guideline. Any other format is a lie and a fraud.

Oya go ahead and show us from the bible what other format was instituted by God for the administration of Tithes. I'm waiting bro. Open your bible and show us how else God wants tithe administered other than the format in Deut 14:22-29.

Talking boldly and charismatically or spamming does not equal to truth.

You're the one giving me unsolicited compliments. I didn't ask for it neither do i need it. It's the business men on pulpits that equate boldness and charisma to the calling of God. I wish you could start telling them this truth. Maybe if i was crooked like them, i could have jumped on this your statement and go register a church. Naive and greedy people will surely find their way there for money doubling and i'll come here mouthing testimonies of how serving God translates into wealth untold.

The truth is truth whether spoken by a weakling or a general. All i'm doing here is telling the truth and i'll keep telling it whether you call it spamming or not

seyibrown: One of the problems in the Church today is that people are pressured to give, forced to give, conned to give and some just give because others are giving and they do not want to be left out. Giving should come from the heart, from compassion ... and one gives from what one has. I don't agree that Naija Xtians are selfish ... they are the most milked Xtians in the world. One person cannot give to every cause and is why I am of certain that if God has a hand in it, it will not fail. The contributions you want will come. If on the other hand it is a secular 'burden', I am sure it can be taken care of the secular way!

1Billion likes my sister. God bless you

You're on point with everything you wrote up there. If only folks will read this your post and digest it very well, i believe they'll put on their thinking caps. Nigerian Christians are being milked for selfish reasons every minute of the day.

God bless you once again

Bidam: Sharrap, you were caught making merchandize of the gospel and now you are pulling this chameleon trick? SMH!

Hi Bidam

Pls lets cut christemmbassey some slack here. See part of what he wrote in the OP

christemmbassey: .......Christians, I want us to discus how we can set up a relief fund where we cand all send N1,000 each to rebuild church and lives in northern Nigeria. Pls read Nehemiah 1:1-4, nehemiah 2:1-20. DO SOMETHING-THE HOUSE OF GOD MUST BE REBUILD. U R BLESSED

He had an idea and brought it to the forum for discussion. I dont believe it was a get rich scheme. Also its an idea that i agree with but modalities, administration and logistics will always be a problem like most contributors have said and i also will be more interested in the suffering people than the buildings. However it is a good idea and one that we all can agree that if Christ were to be here now, he would endorse. See Matt 25:35-40

Cheers

TTgirl: I think so.

My sister, pls what do you mean by blood of Jesus?

My thoughts and prayers are with Mrs Chime. I cant even begin to imagine what she's has gone through or still going through.

Gov Chime is trying to do what we all do instinctively when faced with embarrassing situations and that is protect the family name and 'reputation' more so as he's a political leader in a country where honesty and integrity are in short supply. Very few of us can be honest over issues that will make others laugh and poke fun at us. It's obvious the woman has mental issues. maybe the issues were inflicted by her husband or natural happenstance, what is very clear is that she's not well.

Any husband would want to protect and help his wife get treated but i think hiding her in the government house in the name of protecting the family name and reputation wont help. If he truly loves her, he should move her to where she can get the best medical attention. He should damn the sneers of people and help his wife get well except of course he's benefiting one way or another from the situation.

A typical politician will sacrifice a spouse or family member on the altar of political expediency. I truly hope and pray Gov Chime will dare to be different. His wife's health should come first before any political considerations.

Dear Mrs Clara Chime, i wish you speedy recovery. Pls get well soon.

[quote author=Demain_man]I did not know about tithe until a few years ago. never heard of the word! And when I did, what you listed was what i was told are the punishment of not tithing. I used to wonder, what type of god will punish someone like this for not giving him bribe? Was this god a Nigerian police officer? or a corrupt politician?

I said to myself, surely this is not the same God Jesus spoke about. It can't be. Then I started making my own research on the matter which brought me to sites like Nairaland. Then I learn't about DEUT where God even said to convert your tithe to money if the place he showed you is too far and to reconvert it back to food when you get there. To eat belle-ful with your tithes.


Jesus himself then confirmed it when he said that tithe tradition of the PHARISEES is not even important in the scheme of things.

Thank you to teachers like Pastor Kun and Candour, Goshen, Mark etc who have supplied numerous quotations from the bible to make it easy to understand this fraud even though some will never see the truth but will always follow their pastors sheepishly. They can continue all they want since the 'god of man' surely need them for his survival. As they say in 419 terms 'MUGU FALL, GUY MAN CHOP'

With all the teachings I have learnt on this forum and many others like this, I have no doubt that I am not required to pay any money for salvation. IT IS FREE!![/quote]ROM 8:32
'He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?'

God bless you my brother. The above verse opened my eyes to the immeasurable love God has towards me and proved that I don't need to pay him to get my needs met. If I didnt pay my earthly parents to get their love, why should I pay God almighty the father of love? God demands I share my abundance with the needy, whether clergy or laymen, Christian or pagan. This is the giving that pleases him. Read Matt 25:35-40 to know more.

Getting this truth into my spirit helped obliterate the lie that things will be tight for me if I stopped succumbing to extortioners on the pulpit. Then it dawned on me that if they lied about this, then there might be other lies I've been told that needed to be corrected. So started my resolve to embark on intensive personal bible study. The rest as they say is history.

Christ didn't save me from the clutches of sin to now put me in bondage to my fellow men whose only qualification is their boldness and lack of conscience in twisting scriptures for financial gain.

God bless you as you continue to study his word.

GOD will bless you abundantly for your honesty.

You'll be repaid in mysterious ways even bigger than the 20k they dashed you.

good luck in your future endeavors

Uche ernest: if u earn money and u say i dn't want to pay tithe, fine, nobody will force to, i dn't see pastors forcing members to pay, life is all abt choices.. The choice u make determines who u become.. One thing with God is, he does force you to do something..

Thank God for your post brother. It should be a matter of choice really. If you've decided to continue, then by all means do.

Those whom this thread is concerned about are those who have been told the following LIES

1. If you don't tithe, things will be tight for you financially

2. If you don't tithe, you will have calamities, accidents, sickness, etc

3. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

4. If you don't tithe, it means you don't love God

If you don't fall into any of the 4 categories, then this thread and similar ones are not for you.

Feel free to go on with your tithing and i wish you luck.

Very interesting and educative thread indeed.

only Enigma still comes around these days out of the people who featured here.

It is well

Behold an explanation of tithe that Pastors will not have you see. Ask a bible teacher to explain it to you if they can. This is the practice Malachi was trying to remind Israelites of in Mal 3:8-11. If you want to pay tithe today, These verses below remains the true and only guideline. Any other format is a lie and a fraud.

Deut 14:22-29
'Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. [23] And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always. [24] And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee: [25] Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: [26] And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, [27] And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. [28] At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Behold a lesson on tithes by a well known pastor respected and loved by many. It proves unequivocally that tithe is of the law laid down in Deut 14:22-29, Num 18:21-32 and Nehemiah 10:37-39. Any assertion to the contrary is outright dishonesty and calculated to misleading innocent and naive Christians.

https://www.nairaland.com/393253/rhapsody-realities-daily-devotional/9#8071513

The Giving That Stands You Out – Thursday April 7, 2011 – Pastor Chris

And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet (Acts 4:36-37).

It’s impossible for a Christian who only gives his tithes and offerings to feel like an accomplished giver, but the Bible lets us know these aren’t enough. Your tithes for example belong to God, and He expects you to give them to Him anyway. The man who does otherwise is a robber: “Will a man rob God: Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings” (Malachi 3:8 ).

God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); He’s God. So you MUST give Him your tithes and your offerings, as God. Actually, you pay your tithe; you don’t give it, as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift. Your offering on the other hand isnt just a donation made to the Church, but a sacrifice offered to a divine being. God actually demanded for it in Exodus 23:15: “…None shall appear before Me empty-handed” (AMP).

So, beyond your tithes and giving your offerings, which are compulsory for every believer, you have to go the extra mile by getting financially involved in the spread of the Gospel. This type of giving is special because it isn’t a compulsion, but is done out of your love and commitment to the Gospel. 2 Corinthians 9:7 (AMP) says, “Let each one [give] as he has made up his own mind and purposed in his heart, not reluctantly or sorrowfully or under compulsion, for God loves (He takes pleasure in, prizes above other things, and is unwilling to abandon or to do without) a cheerful (joyous, “prompt to do it”) giver [whose heart is in his giving]. This is the giving that stands you out.”

Remember it’s in your interest and in your favour when you give to the Lord, for He has promised great returns and mighty harvest of blessings for the giver. So be sure to be counted among those who give financially towards the things of God. In our Ministry, we have several platforms through which we reach millions of souls around the world every day with the Gospel. Locate such opportunities and participate big-time. That’s how to get relevant in the Kingdom and make your life count.

Prayer
Dear Father, thank you for the available opportunities I have to give towards the work of the Kingdom today, realizing that they’ve been put in place for me to make my relevance and impact in world evangelism felt through my giving. Thank you Lord, for continuously increasing my capacity to give, in Jesus’ Name. Amen,

Further Study
Luke 8:2-3
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Daily Scripture Reading
1 Year Bible Luke 11:14-36
Reading plan Judges 3-4

2 Year Bible Matthew 27:55-66
Reading Plan Leviticus 7

Rhapsody of Realities Pastor Chris Oyakhilome
----------------------------------------------------

Christians give freely and cheerfully with no prescribed percentages. 'Every man as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give.....'. If you decide to give everything you own, its your choice. It wont make God love you more. If you dont give too, its your choice, it wont make God love you less. God doesn't need your money......your needy neighbor does so pls give to him.

Be not deceived. Start reading your bibles.

lastmessenger: A friend of mine needed 10k to settle some debt in school and i promised to give her the money.my friend believe in tithing but i dont.so i got paid for a job i did and the money was exactly 10k and i sent it to her.she desparetly needed the cash because time was due to settle the debt.she got the money and thanked me and went straight and settled her school debt.

I called her and asked if she paid tithe on the money that i sent to her and she answered 'no' and that she forgot.she said she would have paid if she remembered and i told her it means the money will not be enough to settle her debt and she said she believe God would have made a way.i simply asked her if it is not God that brought the 10k in the first place and she agreed it is God. i said if God brought 10k for u to use and settle ur debt why do u think He want u to pay him tithe of 1k and reduce the money.i also told her that if i had paid tithe on the 10k that i would have sent her 9k and by the time she pay her own tithe she would be left with 8k.

You see this is the burden that christ released us from when he died and ressurrected.i didnt worry about the devourer or the curse and that is why i gave a needy friend my money.GOD new what he meant when He said Christ has released us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us.indeed the law is a curse and am happy to be released from it and no man no matter how big he or she is will entagle me with the law
My church preach tithe and i dont care because i know better.am still facing intimidations of devourer and curse in church but i dont care because i know that all those devourer ish is nothing but a hogwash.if all Abraham did is an example for us to follow then i think we are in trouble but i thank God it is not so.

The idea behind the topic as i understand it is not to descourage people from giving money to church but all the op is trying to do is to release people from guilt and bondage.christains should be cheerful givers and not fearful givers.we should give not just to the church but to those in need.infact there is a special reward to those who remember the poor in their giving.give 1% or 10% or 20% or 50% etc as the spirit leads you and do it with joy but remember that he which sow bountifully shall reap bountifully.

I think i will stop here.i just hope i made some sense.GOD BLESS U ALL

@the bolded. pro tithers will want to have you believe the OP is asking people not to give again but its not true. Christians are enjoined to give particularly to the needy Christians first then to other needy people. We are expected to favour the righteous causes of our churches or fellowships. Not to be guilt-ed into doing it and surely not to support flamboyance or the conspicuous consumption on display in the religious empires we have today.

God bless you my bro. You made a lot of sense.

Image123: 18. Don't spam the forum by posting the same content many times.

8. Don't post false information on Nairaland.

Your thesis on tithes is false so i'm trying to use Oyaks devotional to correct your erroneous postulations. I'm not spamming at all

BTW, do you consider pastor Chris a much beloved and respected pastor, or you're just throwing words into the air?

He has a lot of members and apologists even on this forum. That means plenty people love and respect him. It doesn't mean i do. The same way millions of Germans loved and respected Hitler even though you probably regard him as a villain.

I'm just stating the obvious. I don't have to like him to say this truth.

What Pastor Chris says proves unequivocally what you want it to prove. Do you agree with everything he taught in that article, or just what your ears itched for?

With that devotional, Oyaks proved what i and others have been telling you for a long time. So you can imagine my joy when i saw he knows exactly what tithe is: a COMPULSORY practice in the LAW of Moses. It has nothing to do with Abraham and surely has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a Christian saved by grace.

Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
Luk 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
Luk 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
If what the widow did is a type of what you do in church, you would not be complaining bitterly about giving 10%. She gave ALL she had, to church, a poor widow. You do not encourage that. Ah ah, you do not encourage that certainly Candour. That is not the type of giving you encourage.

The widow gave freely. She wasn't following a law when she cast in all and that is the principle there. That is the exact type we Christians are asked to follow by Christ and the Apostles. If only Ananias and Sapphira had known this, they wouldn't have tried to impress the apostles and get the immediate judgement they got. I have had cause to issue a draft for almost 3/4 of my monthly salary once to support a dire need in church. It was in mine power to do it or not to do. God didn't stipulate it. It was of my own volition and that is what the bible means by 'every man as he purposed in his heart, so let him give.....'. A Christian shouldn't give to fulfill all righteousness. That is what Pharisees do. We should give as the need arises even if it takes all we have and that is what i live by.

If you live by the 10% threshold, my dear brother image, you have a lot to learn about Love for God and love for your neighbour. If you believe God truly owns all you have, you'll not be rating him or his righteous causes on a meager and miserly 10%.

Freewill giving is itself a command in the law of Moses. Be not deceived. Start reading your bibles.
Deu 16:10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

You're right that freewill giving is commanded in the law of Moses. Christ and the apostles also asked us to give. The problem is that no percentage was stipulated. As i purpose in my heart and as the Lord has blessed me, so i give. read Matt 25:35-40, 1Cor 16:1-2; 2Cor 9:6-8; James 1:27 to get an idea of the kind of giving expected of a Christian. It has nothing to do with the law of Moses.

Deu 23:23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

You can see the bolded. This is talking about a vow you made freely. It has no resemblance to what you drop into the collection bag.

Behold a preaching on tithes by a much beloved and respected pastor. It proves unequivocally that tithe is of the law laid down in Deut 14:22-29. It shows that tithing is not FREEWILL GIVING, it is a COMPULSORY OBLIGATION laid down in the law of Moses. Any assertion to the contrary is outright dishonesty and calculated to misleading innocent and naive Christians.

Also, the offerings mentioned in Malachi are not freewill offerings but the commanded offerings like burnt offerings, sin offerings, peace offerings, first fruit offerings etc laid out in the Pentateuch. No Christian should mistake it for the contribution of 2 mites by the widow to the temple treasury which is a type of what you and I do in church today.

https://www.nairaland.com/393253/rhapsody-realities-daily-devotional/9#8071513

The Giving That Stands You Out – Thursday April 7, 2011 – Pastor Chris

And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet (Acts 4:36-37).

It’s impossible for a Christian who only gives his tithes and offerings to feel like an accomplished giver, but the Bible lets us know these aren’t enough. Your tithes for example belong to God, and He expects you to give them to Him anyway. The man who does otherwise is a robber: “Will a man rob God: Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings” (Malachi 3:8 ).

God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); He’s God. So you MUST give Him your tithes and your offerings, as God. Actually, you pay your tithe; you don’t give it, as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift. Your offering on the other hand isnt just a donation made to the Church, but a sacrifice offered to a divine being. God actually demanded for it in Exodus 23:15: “…None shall appear before Me empty-handed” (AMP).

So, beyond your tithes and giving your offerings, which are compulsory for every believer, you have to go the extra mile by getting financially involved in the spread of the Gospel. This type of giving is special because it isn’t a compulsion, but is done out of your love and commitment to the Gospel. 2 Corinthians 9:7 (AMP) says, “Let each one [give] as he has made up his own mind and purposed in his heart, not reluctantly or sorrowfully or under compulsion, for God loves (He takes pleasure in, prizes above other things, and is unwilling to abandon or to do without) a cheerful (joyous, “prompt to do it”) giver [whose heart is in his giving]. This is the giving that stands you out.”

Remember it’s in your interest and in your favour when you give to the Lord, for He has promised great returns and mighty harvest of blessings for the giver. So be sure to be counted among those who give financially towards the things of God. In our Ministry, we have several platforms through which we reach millions of souls around the world every day with the Gospel. Locate such opportunities and participate big-time. That’s how to get relevant in the Kingdom and make your life count.

Prayer
Dear Father, thank you for the available opportunities I have to give towards the work of the Kingdom today, realizing that they’ve been put in place for me to make my relevance and impact in world evangelism felt through my giving. Thank you Lord, for continuously increasing my capacity to give, in Jesus’ Name. Amen,

Further Study
Luke 8:2-3
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Daily Scripture Reading
1 Year Bible Luke 11:14-36
Reading plan Judges 3-4

2 Year Bible Matthew 27:55-66
Reading Plan Leviticus 7

Rhapsody of Realities Pastor Chris Oyakhilome
----------------------------------------------------

Tithe is a command in the law of Moses. Its not freewill giving. Be not deceived. Start reading your bibles.

When people have bibles but refuse to read for themselves, then its inevitable that crooks will come make merchandise of them. The producers of the CD's have made plenty money at the expense of 'Christians' who refuse to grow. I dont blame them at all. i guess maga must always pay to the 'sharp man'.

I wonder what all those who threw away jewelries, cut their long hair(because relaxers are devilish), burnt clothes etc will do now.

Thank God Kumuyi came out boldly against the cruel industry of hell videos marketing. A lot of people were thrown into schizophrenia because of the lies contained in them. This is Nigeria and i know some smart alec will devise another means to fleece people. Its only a matter of time.

He who has ears, let him hear.

Life outside banking is cool, serene and very stress free for me. Spent almost 8 years in banking and didn't go a day without painkillers. I developed high BP even as a young man. The Job expects you to be there 24/7 without time to think about your future. I have some good memories though as I met the angel that became my wife there and also got to know and understand people but its not a place to stay for long particularly for me that trained as an engineer. I'm now back to engineering and very grateful to God for the opportunity.

@OP, start planning your exit. Save, bridle your desires as that is the undoing of a lot of bankers. They get enticed by money that isnt theirs and get into crime.also, learn about trade and investment. If you save without knowing how to invest, you'll burn your fingers so talk to experienced traders among your customers and learn from them.

I wish you the best.

ochallo: I am alarmed at how stupid and greedy nigerians are, just like their political leaders. @ poster, that money was mistakenly posted into your account which was meant to be posted into another account, eventually someone would ask for it, a cashier made the mistake or the account number was wrong, eventually the person who has the money would go to the bank make a lot of trouble then, they would trace the account and send a message to your branch, they may never find you but someone else would have to pay for that money. It was not just created by magic, it is someone;s money and someone would eventually pay for it. If you intend to run your life on money that doesn't belong to you , then be ready for what ever comes your way.

God bless you for this post.

Today is sunday and i'm sure plenty of my comrades advising the OP to spend money that doesn't belong to him will be lifting 'holy hands' in church this morning. This kind of scenario is why i believe we deserve the evil and corrupt leaders we get because they were once like us; unable to be honest about simple things. After they finish destroying the country, they join us in our religious centers to pray for God to come and fix the problem we all jointly created.

Nothing do us jare. Let us all carry go after all God is always there to repair the damage we willfully cause. Nonsense and ingredient

@OP, Abeg go and complain at the bank first thing on monday morning o. One poor teller in that bank will pay that money and lose his or her job if you dont. It's purely error posting and banks show no mercy on issues like this. Pls have pity and dont help destroy the career of your fellow Nigerian. For you to speak up even shows you have some honesty in you so pls go the full length and make an official report.

May God almighty bless you plenty.

If I had the power, I'll order this write up pasted on the doors of every church building in this country. Christians need to be reminded of this everyday. Integrity must show in our life otherwise the world would not listen to our message.

Integrity is what we should shine for the world to see.

@OP, God bless you indeed.

@Enigma and DrummaBoy

This your discussion reminded me of the discussion I had with one pastor I met yesterday afternoon. His anthem is always that God is not a grand father and all Christians are equal before God irrespective of title.

Yesterday he was telling me that plenty congregations will push their pastors into destruction because of hero worshipping. That when you eulogise your pastor too much, he'll be under pressure to perform. So even the days he has no special revelation from God, he'll have to conjure up something not to 'fall una hands' and before you know it, he's conscience is dead and he throws all caution to the wind.

We see this happening in Christian circles today. We must always remember that no man is infallible and the best of men will always remain a man like DrummaBoy said above.

Bidam: I am truly sorry if my initial post sounded septic and toxic.I never meant it that way.I will work on communication.

No problems. I accept your apology and will be very happy to see you work on the communication part.

Accept mine too for any hurt you feel. The truth hurts like you said but I'll have to change my handle from Candour to another thing before I'll be scared of saying the truth or being told the truth myself.

Cheers

Bidam: hmmn..truth hurts doesn't it. I really hit you where it hurts.lol.

It is never late to retrace your step bro.

Your post shows you are the one habouring offenses.not me.

As for Pastor Chris issue,your post was so clear for all to see. You were on a smearing campaign with an attitude of superiority and condemnation.You were actually sowing evil seeds of discord.

I am just bringing it to your attention.

Yeah truth does hurt but that doesn't mean we should run away from it. As Christians, we must be bold and courageous enough to face it head on.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I'll work on it and make necessary changes. You should too.

Joagbaje: ^^
You should rather be concerned about you unchristian attitude and language. Tell the holyghost to wash you clean

Truth is communicated in love and humble spirit.

2 Timothy 2:24-25
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And what is Christian about your attitude of standing truth on its head? Why is it so difficult for you to be honest about this issue? What is unchristian about pointing out your consistent inconsistencies?

I'm not striving with you. If I was before, I say here and now that I've stopped. But just like Paul withstood judaizers in his time, just like Martin Luther refused to look away when the church was going down the slope with sale of indulgence, I also have decided not to keep quiet any longer about lies and falsehood in the body of Christ. Its destroying Christian testimonies.

If the souls of men are important to you, you should read the atheist deconversion thread, do an introspection and weep for the damage erroneous doctrines are doing to humans whom Christ died for.

Bidam: Lol,Candour zeal to discredit tithing is remarkable,wish he could channel that zeal to save atheist on this forum,

We can all see the plentiful atheists you've been able to convert with your various expositions here particular the 'deep revelations' of tithing you have. I congratulate you and leave that ministry to you. You are 'obviously succeeding' nicely in it.

After reading the atheist deconversion thread, my ministry became correcting erroneous doctrine in the body of Christ before every believer becomes another atheist and judging from responses, we thank God for little mercies. So stick to your ministry, and let me stick to mine.

in his bid to discredit tithing,he erroneously said Moses predated Abraham.

This is rich coming from a 'scriptural giant' who claims emphatically that Christ was a Pharisee. Curiously non of your journey men jumped on that 'revelation' with you. Maybe they saw the wisdom in leaving you alone on that horribly flawed premise.

I will be glad and say thank you if you can show me where I said Moses predates Abraham so I can correct myself. Wrong doctrine must be expunged immediately.

Such fallacy leaves much to be desired from a Christian.Going all over nairaland making a smearing campaign against Oyaks is not the issue.

And you with your septic tank of a mind and gutters for a mouth pouring forth filthy, obscene and raunchy invectives is the Christian right?

See the thread below and check out all the invectives you poured forth and asked the holy spirit how pleased he is with you. That is if he actually knows you.

https://www.nairaland.com/1475033/anti-tithers-playing-intelligence-nigerian-churches/7

Character is like smoke my friend, no matter how you hide it, it will express itself.

I'm not attacking Oyaks. If anything, i commend him for being honest about the reason for his tithing. He was emphatic about Malachi which makes him an adherent of Mosaic tithes. He didn't even make a single reference to Abraham. He was clear you pay tithe. You don't give it.

If only you and others can borrow some honesty from him and stand on something solid, it would have been good. Someone even said tithe started with God when he asked Adam not to eat of that one tree which was his tithe. Very laughable nonsense.

The issue is producing fruits. At-least Oyaks don produce his own we don see am

Even God told eunuchs not to be dry trees.

So what fruits exactly is your obsession with tithes producing? Other than filthy and obscene speaking?

Now search for the filthiest, raunchiest and most obscene invective you can find and hurl it at me. I won't complain. I believe I've earned it with this post.

Why not? A pastor should be highest paid if the company over which he's CEO is churning out a huge profit and they publish their profit and loss account so the regulatory agencies can verify and endorse. If the company can satisfy all these, by the laws of the land, he's qualified to approach the shareholders and ask for the biggest salary in the land.

The only snag is a church isn't a company and isn't in business of money making.

However, is there any difference between churches of today and any secular commercial enterprise?

Abeg Mr pastor, go ahead and award yourself a raise. Who dares to question an anointed man?

nlMediator: Even in the days of the Apostles, christians went through experiences that would want to make anyone wonder if they had any power. James was beheaded while Peter was there working mighty miracles. Paul and Silas were rough handled like common criminals while carrying a mighty anointing within them. I'm sure if we had none of these incidents in the Bible but have them today, you'll attribute it to God giving more power to the early Church to demonstrate something. No, the Bible says no such thing and we have no right to add to God's Word.

OK my bro. I won't argue further on this with you. You're right about the Peter and James issue. This is where I believe the will of God comes in. Why would James be beheaded and an angel sent to rescue Peter? God alone knows the reason. We can't fully understand our God as his will a lot of times differ from our will and we would weary ourselves trying to. I don't add to the bible and I won't start now.

It's easy to see why we don't see similar miracles today even when the need of salvation is greater today. The early christians had a child-like faith. They harbored no doubt about the ability of Jesus or His messengers to heal. At no point would you see any leader or christian telling others they need not believe for big things because it's not for them. You don't even see any NT teacher emphasizing that christians should have faith. Obviously, it was taken for granted. Today, we've become more educated and highly sophisticated. We rationalize to the point that faith withers. And then we wonder why the miracles are different. Secondly, the church has become more earthly-minded or even materialistic. Then, they thought about heaven more often and actually thought they're leaving soon. With our mindset or disposition, I'm not surprised that the results are different.

I'll keep quiet henceforth on this too. Today's church is very worldly and too earthly conscious. We have little concern for the things that matter to God. I'm happy you agreed that we don't see the manifestations on the scale of acts of apostles. I might be wrong in the reason I adduced for it. I guess I need to seek God's face more on the issue.

On the blood, it's not up to you to tell God what the Blood of Jesus is for. He made that clear Himself. You simply choose not to accept it because you believe all those things can be obtained without the Blood. But He said it in plain terms that the sacrifice of Jesus was ("He was bruised" for our iniquities, our health and our peace (wholeness). Because He understands that all those problems are traceable to sin. When sin is dealt with, all that comes with it should also go. God knew that He was healing people before Jesus died yet He still said Jesus would die for our sickness. Because He knows this is the ultimate way of dealing with the problem, instead of patch work measures in the past.

You're right its not up to me to teach God what to use the blood for. However I based my position on the fact the Christ was a replacement for the sin offering of old. Healings had been done by God since the start of time and strictly based on his mercy. However, sin needed a righteous judgement and only Christ blood could atone fully and totally.

I'll stop here my brother. You and I have had a most fruitful discussion and I look forward to more productive engagements with you in future. I'll be lying if I claim to know it all and rather than twist scriptures, its better to keep quiet.

Wish you the very best and God bless you.

Joagbaje: God gave us principles to access his blessing, prayers ,tithes,offerings are principles. If you don't do them ,you miss the benefit. Payer of Joseph was an act of faith. If you don't pray. You miss the blessing attached to it.

Tithing is not a principle, ITS A LAW OF MOSES. Even your G.O knows this truth. Stop making it equal to prayer.

Giving is the principle that is beneficial even to unbelievers and tithing isn't giving. Oyaks called it paying and I agree with him because he's right.

The will of a God does not automatically come to pass . It's by your act of faith you access the will of God. No matter how much God plan is , if you don't play your part , The will of God will not be done . These actions on our parts are principles of the kingdom.

If you don't pray, fast ,study ,meditate,give,live right, etc etc. get ready for a low life. No matter what God has ordained for you it won't come to pass.

This must be why all the apostles except John suffered horrible deaths, lack and deprivations. They obviously did not obey all these principles.

The will of God superceeds our desires. Our affection isn't based on anything on earth. They are ephemeral and both the Lord and the apostles enjoined us to be content with our needs being met. If you have more, the Lord says to share with those who don't have. The true Christian journey is fraught with persecutions and attacks. However, we are more than conquerors because we've been redeemed to a better hope. Rom 8:35-39 explains it perfectly.

Joagbaje: Remember I don't converse with mockers like you, I warned you earlier. I discuss with responsible people . You may kindly exit the thread.

I'm not discussing with you dear. I'm only pointing out lies you pour forth on here and I'll keep pointing them out as long as you do not desist from barefaced lies.

Feel free to ignore my posts. Those who seek the truth will get to read it. They are my audience, not you.

Oluwatola5: Yes, lolzzz......am the one boss.

Are you serious Hmm....so I have family on Nairaland

I was a member. Left Ife many many years ago.

Regards to the great ones

nlMediator: Your position on healing is all over the map. I'm working very hard to pin it down. First, it is that miracles like in Jesus' time no longer occurs. Later, it is that they can occur if God wills. Then, it is miracle is a sign for unbelievers. Well, there are billions of unbelievers today. Should we be working these signs to open the doors to evangelism? You say, No, because it is as God wills and we can't force God's hand! Did Paul force God's hand in Malta when he healed those pagans? Can you see they do not add up? Then you add that healings have ceased because if they did not, Timothy would have been healed and Paul would not have been sick. But if I ask what happened to the pople that were sick and were not healed by Jesus, you'd invent a new slant.

The blood of animals was shed to cover up the sins of the Israelites. But God was clear what He was sending Jesus to do and why the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth. It's clear there in Genesis when Adam and Eve sinned. God told them they would suffer the consequences of their sin but He has made provision for it. That provision was the blood of Jesus. God never said the blood would atone for sins but leave the consequences of sin unattended. Isaiah 53:4-5 makes clear that the Blood was shed not just for sin, but also for sickness and disease. In fact, Jesus' death and resurrection not only restored to man what he lost under Adam but put him at a higher position than he was under Adam.

You choose to ignore what the scriptures say so you can depend on analogy (with the blood of animals). The choice is yours but don't pretend you're speaking what God says.

My position on the issue has not changed if you decide not to lose track of our discussion or get too carried away.

The blood of Christ is for our salvation. It covered our sins permanently making it possible for us to approach a holy God that can't behold iniquity. nothing more nothing less. Christ was healing and empowered his disciples for healing before he shed his blood proving that the blood had nothing to do with healing. 

Until Christ comes back, our flesh will still be subject to the curse of physical death which manifests slowly through sickness and infirmities. A woman no matter how anointed or redeemed will still pass through the rigous and pain of Child birth exactly how Eve experienced it. If we are to go by your idea of redemption, all Christian women shouldnt have a single pain throughout pregnancy. Or is it that women were not redeemed from the curse?

Miracles have been wrought by God since the beginning of time and still remains his prerogative. The creation itself was a miracle. God gave Moses signs to prove to Israel and Pharaoh that he sent him. Christ performed miracles which were signs to prove to Israel that he was the Messiah. Christ promised the disciples signs will be wrought by their hands and reading the book of acts proves what these signs enabled them achieve.

Now can you honestly say you get miracles and signs on the scale of the acts of the apostles today? The answer is no. Even the holy ghost that came down on them was visible. If you've seen an experience like that, i envy you because i'm yet to see it. All the sick that came to Jesus for healing were healed. It was when he got to his hometown that he couldn't perform much because of their unbelief in that they disdained him because they knew his background otherwise whether you had faith or not, Christ dished out the miracles.

The apostles healed all the sick, maimed that came to them at the onset of their ministry. However by the time the epistles were being written, we see the cases of lingering sickness in their own lives which they documented. This can only mean the signs were no longer as plentiful as at the onset. Hence Paul will admonish and advice on perseverance in trials, afflictions and tribulations. Peter and James did same in their epistles.

We all love miracles but we should try and get a total picture of the new testament instead of concentrating on the parts that appeal to us. That's what I'm trying to do bro.

nlMediator: You're simply adding to the Scriptures - something you discouraged earlier.

1. Nowhere does the Bible say that the blood of Jesus is for salvation of souls only. That the Blood of Jesus is the only one that can accomplish that does not mean that God wanted the blood to accomplish only that.

2. Nowhere does the Bible say that the miracles by the Apostles was to validate their ministry only and was not available to other christians.

3. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Paul's power to work miracles ceased at some point - before Timothy's case.

4. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that healing is according to God's will only and that human beings can do nothing about getting healed.

If you have just one scriptural verse to support your assertions, just povide it. Otherwise, you are adding to God's Word.

Moreover, there are MANY verses in Scripture that say that healing is available to and through believers.

1. Jesus said that one of the signs to know His believers is that they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. If this was not in reference to ALL believers, then other things, He said there like speaking in a new language also does not belong to believers beyond the early Church.
2. Paul wrote in Corinthians that God has given to the Church gifts of healings and miracles, among other gifts. If we take out healings and miracles, then the other 7 gifts no longer apply either.
3. James told christians to ask for healing prayers. That verse has no limitation to the early apostles. The elders that would pray were not apostles and he put no expiry date.

If we take out the scriptures on healings and miracles written by Paul, Peter, James, etc, we should take out the rest of what they wrote. We cannot conveniently choose what to believe.

What you are doing is far worse then the people you condemn for following the law or OT. At least, they're following God's Word. You are following and recommending that others follow what is NOT God's Word.

its actually a simple matter. What was the function of animal blood in the old covenant? I believe you won't say atonement for sin and healing right? It was strictly for atonement. Jesus came as the sacrificial lamb to wash our sins away in the new covenant. His blood took over the functions of the sacrificial lamb.

Heb 9:12
'Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us'

Eternal redemption means salvation of our souls, Nothing more and nothing less.

I don't have a bible verse that says the signs ceased and I didn't claim to have. However what reasons will you adduce to explain the fact that Epaphras, Timothy, Trophimus, Paul all suffered sickness despite their great anointing? And all died violently except John despite their great miracle power?

The folks Paul healed at Malta were all pagans not believers and of course this would have opened the door for evangelism. That is what signs are for, to get attention, like Moses for instance. The gospel was just starting and these were horrible pagan areas, something had to open them up and these extra ordinary miracles did just that.

If healing is not according to God's will, then whose will is it according to? Your will or my will? It is God that works in us to do of his good pleasure. Even Paul prayed to get the infirmity off him and God told him to persevere. Is it because he lacked faith? That is God in action and he's not subject to you or I.

Visible cloven tongues like fire appeared on the apostles when holy ghost came down. I don't know if you have heard of such experience today. Study acts of the apostles and see if we have such manifestations today. God still does extra ordinary things today but we can't force his hand. We pray and make requests to him and he answers us according to his will, not ours hence great men of God suffer affliction like ordinary men too.

The central theme of the gospel is salvation of the soul to get us ready for eternity with God. Whether miracles continue or not will not affect the power of the gospel because it achieved the only thing that can't be counterfeited and that is eternal redemption of the soul. This is the one thing guaranteed us in the gospel. Whether we get other benefits or not, we are still more than conquerors because we are free of Satan's hold on us. That is Paul's message in Rom 8:35-39.

nlMediator: Let me focus on a few of the things you mentioned. If the miracles of Jesus were a sign to tell us who He was, how come such miracles continued after His death through His disciples like Peter? Glad you mentioned Epaphras. He was not healed perhaps. But does tha mean that God did not heal through Paul? He sure did. So, if your thesis is correct about the miracles of Jesus and the sickness of Epaphras, Paul's healings would be a lie. And James' advise that the sick should call elders for healing and would be healed as a result is a lie. I choose to believe God's Word, including what James wrote to chrisitans when they fall sick. And what Peter told us that by His stripes we were healed - not a reference to tthose healed under Jesus' ministry as a sign that He's the Messiah.

The body being subject to death has nothing to do with healing. Everybody will die but being well before dying or for most of your time on earth is better than being sick before dying. So, there's enormous value in God providing healing for His children, while knowing that they are still mortal. It's like saying that everybody would one day die and we therefore should not care if our children go hungry.

In terms of God doing miracles among unbelivers, I frankly do not get your point. God has been healing unbelievers before Jesus came and after Jesus came. Again, going by your logic, we should discount Jesus miracles because what happened through Him also happened among unbelievers. In fact, we can say that He did not even need to do any miracles because there's nothing special about it: God does it among the heathen Pakistani as much as He does it among the Jews. You really expect me to take that as a serious refutation of the clear fact in Scriptures that healing is part of the redemption package?

My bro, i guess we will agree to disagree.


The miracles of Jesus were signs to show who he was to the jews. The miracles the apostles wrought were signs to show the world they were sent by Christ. Just like Moses was given powerful signs to prove God sent him. If the signs continued for that long, i wonder why a whole Timothy would be advised by Paul to use wine to cure a recurring stomach problem. The same Paul that healed every sick person on island of malta?

The apostles miracles were for a reason, to establish a fresh commission in the midst of so much opposition. It ceased after the gospel was established hence the cases of. Epaphras, Timothy and even Paul himself and like the thousands of frustrated miracle seekers we have today.


God heals according to his will. He's even empowered the human body to auto repair when possible. Glad you agree that God has been healing even unbelievers before Christ came. That is why Christ blood is strictly for salvation of souls. The one thing that nothing or nobody on earth or heaven can do for us.

Miracles have been happening before Christ came to shed his blood meaning they dont need the blood to happen. Complete justification is only possible through the blood of Christ and that is why Christ shed his blood. Nothing more nothing less.