₦airaland Forum

This issue might not be so clear cut as it looks. Publishing of books and production of tapes and CD's cost money. We all know you need money to get things done. Whether from the mouth of a fish or the pocket of a generous person, money is needed to organize.

The question i think should be 'should Pastors/ministries sell their books and messages for profit?' Should an empire be built out of sales of gospel materials? Is there any Christ-likeness in a Minister of the gospel trying to compete with moguls who are in business for making money?

Altruism is an unwritten cardinal attribute of a Christian but it's been flung out the window in our contemporary Christianity. Christian leaders now expect a handsome profit for every undertaking they engage in the course of ministry. A visit to a sister church must yield a fat honorarium. A speaking engagement there must be handsomely rewarded in cash. Is there any wonder why the gospel we preach has become greedy and self centered? Always about acquiring more to consume on our lusts? How about a little selflessness? A person who answers the call of ministry ought to know he signed up for sacrifice and a life of selflessness. Even if the materials are sold at a profit, what happens to the proceeds? A honest shepherd will plough back into the lives of his flock. That is what Jesus did. That is what Paul did. That is what those who risked their lives to bring the gospel to Africa did. That is what we all must do if we are truly followers of Christ as we call ourselves and Pastors MUST take the lead in this regard.

Acts 20:34-35
'Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.35.I have showed you all things, how that so laboring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, it is more blessed to give than to receive'

Paul was actually talking to the leaders of the church at Ephesus in the above reference (though dishonest pastors now use the bolded part to guilt believers into parting with cash) and it's a message to all Christian leaders today. Leadership is about service and sacrifice and it's more so when it comes to Christianity. Christian leaders must stop the mercenary approach to ministry where every undertaking must be primed to yield financial returns. Pastors who run ministry like this are no better than soldiers of fortune, a hired hand with no scruples and lacking a soul.

However, this is not limited to church leaders. We all must learn to live on less and spend more on those less privileged than us. We must spend on genuine needs in the ministry and in our immediate society. Someone described true Christianity as socialist in nature:i think i agree with him.

Christians, particularly pastors must always strive for the common good and this means making the materials readily available at little or no cost so no one will be denied access to the gospel. That is our true calling. Any deviation from this makes us Charlatans.

God bless us all.

These discussions are not for the benefit of the discussants. anybody can twist or lie to win an argument.

The beneficiaries of these discussions are those who have NEVER heard or known what Tithing is all about and its relationship to a Christian except the much popular Mal 3:8-11. They will come in and read maybe today, tomorrow or even next year as long as NL is still operational.

They'll read and arrive at the truth and when that happens, this thread and similar ones would have achieved it's aim.

So kudos to everybody

Rhymeyjohn: Luke 11:42
2 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
i dont pass over love to tithe, i do it out of love. Your brother in error made a wrong statement and you are trying to support it. christianity is not a gang thing sir. I cant note when last i remenbered mal3:8-10 when tithing. My GOD deserves more than my tithe, my all.

You're the one in error my friend. If you want to tithe, do it the Deut 14:22-29 way. any other format is plain error.

That appelation of a gang fits you and yours perfectly too.

If truly God deserves more than that meagre legalistic 10%, then stop gauging your giving with that measure. For you to still give through the mirror of 10% tithe, paints you as being a bit dishonest. God deserves your 100% because he owns you. When you start seeing it this way, you'll NEVER again remember 10%.

Am not ready for any banter with you so dont bother replying-many of you dont show true rightoeusness- imagine a 'murderer' anti tither, and nobody could correct that, atleast to save face. My christianity is not a gangster type. thanks.

You dont need to reply. My reply is based on your comment on this post below

Zikkyy: why you dey worry? nobody tithes because he/she loves God. It will be interesting to see a sermon on tithing out of love.

He made a statement which i very much agree with. You dont tithe because of love for God. You lie when you say that. The tithing advocated in churches today has nothing to do with love but greed and fear. It's your choice to accept it or not but it doesnt change the truth.

i wonder where you saw the attribute of a murderer in that post i reproduced up there unless every non tither has become a murderer to you. You dont have to paint a gory picture to hang somebody you know? When you do, you are no different from a gangster that you so flippantly use on others

Luke 11:52
2 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge : ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. titus3:9-10
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
KJV

If you dont know much about scriptures or are unwilling to study, its ok to say so. The verse you quoted is speaking directly to you. We all are trying to study the bible here and the least you can do is open your bible to counter any wrong conclusion from anybody. If you cant or wont, it just shows you up as a follow follow person who lives by what he's told every Sunday in church.

You have a bible, take it out and read it yourself. You'll be doing yourself a great deal of good thereby.

It's unfortunate that for you, the sign of a good Christian is Tithing.

Rhymeyjohn: Error and Heresy. Waiting for other anti tither to support this claim. Matt 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves .
KJV

Of course it's true. How many of you tithe because you love God? you tithe for 1 or more of the following reasons


1. So that the windows of heaven can open. one bishop told you that 'you CAN'T succeed in this kingdom without tithes' and then tells you of Rockefeller's 90% tithing and the success that followed, Kenneth Copeland's 26 Jets miracle etc

2. So that Devourers like sickness, poverty, hardship etc will not come close to you

3. You met your parents doing it so it's like tradition


If you'll be honest, you tithe simply because of one of the reasons above

Zikkyy: I believe he is saying Nigerian government can do wonders with tithe just as the developed world is doing with taxation. i.e. with tithe, Nigeria can be like America.

Zikkyy, Zikkyy, Zikkyy.....how many times did i call you? take your time o

I'm @ work o and i no wan cause any funny scenes with laugh here o

Atimes you have to wonder how Christendom missed the truth for so long.

Heb 9:16-17
'For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.17.For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.'

The above simply means you can't execute a will until the owner of the estate dies. The beneficiaries CANNOT benefit from the goodies contained in the will until their benefactor leaves the scene. They will be seeing their inheritance but they can't access it until the old man passes on.

Until Jesus died on the cross and rose up, the new testament or covenant of grace never took off in full swing. We might have seen glimpses of it like Syro-Phoenician woman and the Roman centurion who were gentiles but received attention from Jesus. However everything Christ did was under the law.

He observed sabbath, he kept the feasts, His mother offered 2 pigeons for ritual cleansing after birth etc

The day of Pentecost(which was actually the Jewish feast of weeks) marked The start of the new dispensation but it still took the arrival of Paul on the scene to show how all encompassing the new testament of grace was.

interesting thread indeed and I pray it blesses us all

God bless

[quote author=Demain_man]^^^^ Also, if you don't tithe you will not receive the tithers reward in heaven. I never knew that there will be different level for heaven oo just like we have here on earth[/quote]Thanks my bro.

You're even more attentive in the class than me i need to buckle up

The scriptural gymnastics on this thread will make professional gymnasts and contortionists green with envy. The following are some 'wisdom' poured forth on this thread

1.Jesus was a Pharisee who paid Tithes

2.Melchizedekal law of tithing is the new format.

3.Paul explained how to drop Mosaic Law of Tithing and pick up Melchizedekal tithing

4.The Mega rich pastors are the conclusive evidence that Tithing works

5.Pastors took over the privilege of the Levites

I believe more will pop up

Joagbaje: Thanks I agree with you. But they still robbed God anyway .you know that for the fact that they made such a vow that has automatically made the property Gods own. If they had escaped PETER judgement they would still be held accountable over the vow. The land and the full money already belonged to God by their vow .

They NEVER made a vow. They saw others sell all they had and bring to the apostles and the congregation must have acknowledged them so Ananias and Sapphira decided to get similar glory. They were punished for lying, not for robbing God. Peter reminded them it was their's even after the sale. If they didn't give anything, they committed no sin.

A vow is a promise made before the action is carried out. There is no record that they or any other contributor made any promise to the apostles. They all gave as they purposed in their hearts.

Let us avoid adding to scripture to justify our preconceived ideas. Its wrong and misleading.

@noblefada.

Thanks for this write up. Pls if its not too much to ask, who is the pastor who wrote this and where is the church he pastor's? If you prefer I send you a mail, pls let me know.

Thanks in anticipation and God bless you plenty

[quote author=m.k.o2005]Una get trouble well well o ! Have you asked urself why it was just spoils of War that Abraham tithed to Melchizedek as it was recorded ?
After the return of Abraham from war,the Mysterious Melchizedek came into focus ! Abraham tithed from what was given to him by God ! He did it out of Love and appreciation to the Almighty God for the victory and spoils of war given to HIM by God !
You said it was not recorded that Abraham's Children ever tithed ! And i say to you that you lack knowledge seein that his grandson Jacob tithed as some say he only vowed to tithe but it was not recorded that he did. But i ask you,'who introduced OR TAUGHT Jacob how to tithe since there were no Laws stating that anyone should tithe as at then ? His father Isaac or possibly his grand pa who tithed !
You said it was just spoils of war that Abraham tithed and i ask you'what did Jacob tithed or vowed to tithe? May be also spoils of war ?

Jacob has already been blessed by God but bein man that he was,he decided to enter a covenant with God becos HE knows God does not break covenants !
See below scripture to show you clearly that Jacob has already been blessed by God before he vowed just to seal it with God :
Genesis 28:12-15''He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”
See also below scripture to show you that it was after the above blessings that he vowed to tithe :
Genesis 28:20-22 ''Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the Lord will be my God and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.” He was already blessed before the vow but as human that he was,who knows that God don't break covenant,he decided to enter the covenant with God ! Ofcourse you and I Trust God to be faithful with HIS words not to talk of covenants ! I can on my own count it as an error on the part of Jacob for not believing on the words of blessings pronounced by God earlier,but trust,Jacob is human, what do you expect !
Concerning wether Jacob fulfilled his vow,is left for HIM . But i want to believe he did since we all believe that God blesses when HE promises to do so ! I want to believe God did not default as we can all see in the scriptures regarding how he protected and Blessed Jacob having changed his name to Israel ! So if Jacob no fulfill his own side of the matter,e concern am but him and him papa don lay the foundation already tay tay for us ! Becos it was recorded that Abraham tithed more than once to Melchizedek,does not make it to mean that tithing ended there after all we saw even his grand son Jacob tithing or vowing to tithe as it were !
You are still asking who we should tithe to since Abraham's tithe was to Melchizedek and Not God ! And I ask you who did Jacob vowed to tithe to ? My father or some evil spirit out there ? It was God who blessed him that he tithed to ! And besides,Abraham tithed to the preincarnate Christ !This one is difficult for you to swallow ba ?
Regarding tithing and money,please see below meaning of spoils of War and see if you can tithe any other thing other than casava and paw-paw:Besides i have educated you on this before but may be for those who are yet to be informed :
What do you think spoils of war means ? Just to help you a little,it is not compulsorily or most definitely farm produce or live stocks but Any profits extracted as the result of winning a war i.e houses,ships,gold,silver,bronze,petroleum products,CASH ETC.
See Scripture below to show you clearly from the bible what spoils could mean:
Joshua 6:18-19 “Do not take any of the things set apart for destruction, or you yourselves will be completely destroyed, and you will bring trouble on the camp of Israel. 19 Everything made from silver, gold, bronze, or iron is sacred to the Lord and must be brought into his treasury.” During the OT and even NT days,men and women were[b] predominantly[/b] farmers and not bankers ! ;DHence the tithing with mostly farm produce and not cash ! But i can still give one of my houses to God for a place of worship as TITHE ! Another difficult one for you right

When Hebrews said Jesus is the priest according to the order of Melchizedek and if you want to understand what that means just go check out what Melchizedek did in Genesis 14 and you will understand what Jesus did and is still doing in the body of Christ today !

God help us all[/quote]Abraham Didn't tithe of his farm or his herd. He tithed from spoils of war.

Isaac did not tithe. He didn't need to and there's no record that he did.

Jacob made a vow to tithe. That is a clear explanation that he never saw tithing as a regular practice. If he did, he won't make it a vow. Its that simple.

Israel tithed to Levites who then tithed to the priests ensuring the priests only got 1% of the tithes of Israel.

All Christians are now priests unto the almighty with Christ as high priest. This effectively means NO MAN on earth has a claim to take tithes of any christian because priests DO NOT tithe. Whether Melchizedekian or Levitical, TITHING is not Christian.

If you give tithes to your pastor, you are confessing he has a superior priesthood to yours and I'll say good luck with that. If truly you're saved by the same blood as your pastor, its curious why you have to degrade your own salvation so you can give him tithes.

If Melchizedek had use for tithes because he was on earth then, Christ the high priest in heaven right now HAS NO NEED for any earthly tithes or whatever. Our needy brethren need it and he has told us if we give them, we are actually giving to him.

God loves a cheerful giver, not a legalistic one.

[quote author=m.k.o2005]The problem with anti -tithers is that you all think that the Law started or brought about tithing -How wrong ! Men have started tithing before the Law was given after the Exodus from Egypt. Tithing was again commanded durring the days of Law as it was borrowed from the Pre-Law days ! Jesus came again in the new testament days and commended the teachers and hearers to go ahead with tithing ! Jesus left and Paul explained again to the spiritually alert how we are to drop the Law type of tithing and cling unto the Pre-Law type of tithing which is the tithing by GRACE made available to us by the High priest in the order of Melchizedek !-Go check out wetin Melchizedek do for Genesis 14:18-20(HE brought out bread and wine,blessed Abraham and COLLECTED TITHE !) Abraham and his children weren't commanded to tithe by any Law becos there was no Law then.Neither were they commanded to tithe by any man for they tithed out of their LOVE for God to show appreciation for HIS goodness unto them !
So if you say LOVE,how come you can't tithe ? For to tithe is an act of Love and appreciation to God !

God help us[/quote]When we discuss tithing, its pertinent to note the following. This is to enable the discussion go linearly and not in circles like we are wont to have.

Abraham tithed War Spoils to Melchizedek. He travelled far to go war to recover Lot and it will take a lot of lying to prove he carried the tithe of his personal flock, farm produce along to the war hence we all Know he DIDN'T give of his personal fortune but Mosaic Tithing does not accept spoils of war as tithes. Rather God gave a different sharing formulae (Num 31:26-54).

Abraham tithed to a Priest-King but Isreal tithed to Levites, who then tithed to The family of the priests represented by Aaron.

Abrahamic and Mosaic Tithes are different in form and administration so let us be sure of which we are meant to practice today. We can't use one to justify the other because they are very different.

Abraham tithed once and HE NEVER passed on the practice to Isaac. There is no single record of Isaac giving tithes to anybody. The family of Abraham and his descendants were the only recorded worshipers of Yahweh at this period so no priest was available to collect any tithe on God's behalf. Even whenever Abraham sacrificed to God, he did himself for there was no priest to carry it out for him.You can only say Isaac tithed but wasn't recorded in scripture if you can show that Melchizedek appeared again and again to come keep the tithe ritual alive.

Jacob made a vow to tithe because it was not his regular practice. If it was what he did regularly, he won't try to force God's hands with it. Are you allowed to give God a condition today before you tithe? If God hadn't done what Jacob requested, he wouldn't have tithed . This shows nothing about love here but a necessary action to get a desire. Even at that, scripture is silent on whether he fulfilled it or not and how he did the fulfillment if at all he did.

Mosaic tithes was NEVER money even though money had always been in circulation then. Some Mosaic laws had elements of money in them e.g Ex 21:32, Lev 27:3-8. Even Abraham bought Sarah's burial site 500 years before Moses with Money so the story of money wasn't available then is simply not true.

Self efforts in ministry will always lead to crooked practice as the minister seeks to adopt worldly methods to achieve heavenly success. He must therefore go the way of the world because his 'success' had become defined by what the world calls success.

No matter what, if its of the Lord, he knows what to make of it and he alone can define what success is. So Christ can authoritatively say where 2 or 3 are gathered in his name, he's there in their midst. The world will disagree with this as to the world, bigger means better and more means success.

May God help us see his strength even in our times of weakness and may he let us see his hands working in us even when the world terms us failures.

God bless you abundantly bro

hmm...interesting thread. more grace to you brother.

following

Bidam: Even after the death of Jesus the Apostles still visit the temple to PRAY(ACTS 3). In other words they still kept all the Jewish laws and customs. THEY paid their tithes because the temple was still in existence as at then. You people should understand that Jesus wasn't against the LAW AND THE PROPHETS. The problem He had with the Pharisees was that He was the MESSIAH
If you guys are using the flimsy nonsensical argument that no where in scripture was it written that Jesus paid tithe so you wouldn't pay tithe then be ready to do what Jesus did in scripture.

1.Jesus Kept the Feast of Tabernacles John 7:2-14

2.Jesus was a faithful Sabbath keeper (Luke 4:16), regularly going to synagogue for worship and teaching (Matthew 12:1-16, 13:53-54; Mark 1:21; John 6:59). Many of His miracles were performed on Sabbath (Matthew 12:9-13, John 5)

3.Jesus went up to Jerusalem for a Jewish feast JOHN 5:1

4.at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication: John 10:22

When the disciples went up to the temple to worship, they ALWAYS found the levitical priesthood in charge because Judaism was still the religion of the Jews. The apostles COULD NEVER have supplanted the Levites as tithe collectors. How could they have done it? When they even had to be dragged to the council for preaching and were flogged for that?

Every ritual or practice at the temple was FULLY UNDER THE CONTROL of these legalists and it will be fantasy to think they gave up the privilege of tithe collections for the apostles.

The early church DID NOT pay tithes to the apostles. The apostles knew they didn't qualify to collect it. What the apostles received were freewill donations which was used for the good of all, not for the church leaders.

Jesus kept all those feasts because he was still under the law. Any command to pay the tithe today should also make it imperative to keep all those feasts.

There is nothing Christian about a mandatory 10% of a Christian's income going to the pastor.

Pastors DID NOT replace the Levites neither did the apostles. There is no relationship between the church today and the temple in Jerusalem. The death of Christ on the cross rendered the Levitical priesthood useless and unprofitable. It has been replaced with the high priesthood of Christ with all Christians made priests unto the most high God.

Priests DO NOT pay tithes. Under the law, Priests receive 10% of the tithes brought by the people effectively meaning priests only get 1% of the tithes. There is no priest today qualified to receive tithes from Christians who are priests of the most high God.

Abraham gave Melchizedek tithes of spoils of war, NOT of his PERSONAL FORTUNE even though he had an abundance. He went to the war to get Lot freed and nothing more. It wasn't a profit making venture for him hence he refused the remaining 90%. He finished the war and came back home to his regular life.

Jacob vowed to pay tithes ONLY IF God met a condition. This condition renders any talk of Jacob as a regular tither a LIE. He was with Laban for 20 years and he DID NOT tithe because it was not a practice he met with Isaac his father. Abraham NEVER passed on the practice to Isaac because it was a one off he did with Melchizedek.

Jesus Christ the High priest is in heaven today and NO other Christian qualifies to sit above any other Christian to operate another priesthood over him. All priests are equal under ONE SUPREME HIGH PRIEST and that is how Christianity is.

All Christians who have means are encouraged to help the less privileged who include ministers who due to the work of ministry cannot pursue secular jobs Like the early Christians and the apostle did.

Ministry is not a business and should never be seen as such. Contributions are made on a need to do basis, not to enrich anybody or build an earthly empire. This is the practice the early church did and its the honest way. Money contributed must be for the general good.

Bidam: There are sects in islam,yet they hold onto one god and one book the quran,there are sects in Christianity,yet they hold on to one god and one book the bible,so also there were 3 sects in Judaism during Jesus era and they held on to ONE GOD AND ONE TORAH(LAW OF MOSES).Jesus did not belong to the other 2.He belonged to the PHARISEES.get THAT INTO YOUR THICK SKULL PAL.

It was after his death that and resurrection that his disciples now formed a SECT CALLED THE WAY and not before,get that

So His disciples only formed another sect of Judaism right? No wonder you and others decided to form another tribe called pastors who now own the tithes.

Congrats on your devotion to the Jesus who was a Pharisee. May he give you peace. The Jesus of the bible who died for my sins disdained them with a passion which he never hid.

Meanwhile the insult you threw up there is very rich coming from you. I thought the OP said its those against compulsory tithes that insult? Hope you can sleep better now you finally got one off your chest?

You also should reason scriptures and not think with your anus, the pharisees were the ONLY SECT that believed there will be a Resurrection.They were the custodians of the LAW.THEY WERE LIKE THE BELIEVERS WE HAVE IN MODERN-DAY CHRISTIANITY.

You are really wallowing in the gutters this morning with all these obscenities......you must have had a real fellowship with the spirit of the Jesus of the pharisees you worship. Make sure to receive more inspiration to get further into the mud and mire to explore more insults and obscenities. Hope your self righteous friends can celebrate your 'sharp wit' with you?

So your logic there makes every Christian believer of the resurrection a Pharisee right? You are really utilising your brain and its only from it you could have come up with this ingenious 'wisdom'. Keep it up, my Christian pharisee.

Maybe you should go back to school and brush up your English because someone THINKS i never went to the university doesn't mean i did not go to the university. , They thought Jesus never learned the letters,were they with Jesus when he was asking questions at the age of 12? and going back to ask JOSEPH HIS FATHER A JUST MAN WHO KNEW THE LAW AND MARY HIS MOTHER A CHASTE WOMAN WHO OBEYED THE LAWS OF MOSES? Everybody knows it is the Jewish custom and traditions of the father to teach his sons the LAWS AND WAYS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE.JOSEPH WAS A PHARISEE THROUGH AND THROUGH.

OK so its is father that taught him right? Your bible told you his father was just and it automatically made him a rabbi who could teach others the law right? Do you by any means remember Joseph was a carpenter and the rabbi's took their teaching as a proffesion?

The Jesus of the bible grew up a carpenter and didn't have the opportunity of studying under any rabbi. That is why they marveled. Jesus knew the law because he was filled with the Holy Spirit who is the great teacher. Try and get this. Its not that difficult.

You still did not get the point here.You said the temple was destroyed about 70 AD. The apostles NEVER depareted from the temple,they visit the temple regularly for prayers(ACTS 3) PETER,JAMES,JOHN AND OTHERS KEPT THE JEWISH LAWS AND THE JEWISH FEASTS
in the temple, not amongst themselves.
You err everything the article quoted wasn't even a historical record but the bible,it shows you never read the scripture they quoted and assumed you knew too much.Now inside Me and You, who is fond of digging historical records? Let others be the judge of that abeg

So because they met regularly in the temple, it automatically conferred on them the status of Levites who could receive tithes right? Meeting in the temple meant they could also appropriate the office of the priests to take charge of the 10% of tithes too, right?

Keep trying to squeeze collection of tithes into what the disciples did.

Of course I read and utilise historical records because common sense tells me that events in the bible happened at a particular time in history. You're the one who called other sources trash not me so I wonder why you made a recourse to them for help now.

You are still repeating what the article never said here instead of addressing my points. This is what i said digest it before rushing to argue,take your time,don't rush
.

Try look for another article. This one is too shallow to convince anybody that Jesus Christ was a Pharisee.

Bidam: In trying so hard to justify your stand you flawed your logic by equating a different prophet from a different race to people who still held the LAWS OF MOSES as the epitome of the JEWISH experience i.e the pharisee.How does that sound to your hearing?

Now you see the unintelligence of the premise you base your faulty conclusion on. I wonder how you felt when you typed with your hands affirmatively that JESUS WAS A PHARISEE

Jesus friends were pharisees,Nicodemus was one of them Pharisees, Jesus did not separate himself from His Jewish roots.Get that into your skull.

You should try and think intelligently sometimes. So he is a Pharisee because he had Pharisees as friends? How about you call him a prostitute because he also had some as friends? Then just go ahead and call him a sinner since he mixed with plenty of sinners.

Such a shame you are not making sense at all here, instead you are destroying your logic the more,who was learning at the age of 12 at the temple asking the teachers of the law questions? Oh! You think Jesus came down from Heaven with ALL THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE MOSAIC LAWS BECAUSE HE IS THE SON OF GOD ABI?. Jesus learned the TORAH just like any Jews UNDER THE PHARISEES AND SCRIBES, Pharisees is not a derogatory term,they are the believers of the MOSAIC LAW IN Jesus era.If you say Jesus is different from them,then you guys are preaching ANOTHER JESUS HERE.

John 7:14-15
'Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.15.And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned'

The verse above said he never learned. Which means no one taught him. So go ahead and let us know if you're the Pharisee that taught him.

But then, the Messiah you preach is all decked up in Mammon so maybe that's the one taught by your Pharisee friends.

The APOSTLES WERE JEWS WHO STILL HELD ONTO THE TORAH(LAWS OF MOSES) and that was the only book available even after the death of Jesus.They still practiced the LAW.The only problem they had withe the pharisees was concerning THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS. So They knew Jesus is the son of God and EQUAL with God because they were WITNESSES to these things,Jesus NEVER CONDEMN THE TITHE..HE condemned the traditions of the pharisees and so many other abuses in the doctrines of men they made BUT Jesus never condemned the LAW OF MOSES. Stop all these your extrabiblical guesses and erroneous theologies,they are vain philosophies and old-wives fables.STICK TO THE WORD(JESUS)

Good you agree they upheld the Torah. Now according to the Torah, which tribe collected tithes? LEVITES According to the Torah which of the apostles qualified to collect tithes? NONE. Do you think every religious leader in Israel qualified to collect tithes?

The apostles knew the Torah exempted them from tithes so THEY DID NOT COLLECT TITHES. They were honest and upright men not thieves.

Before you go to dig up historical documents nextime to prove falsehood and blasphemy, preach to yourself that the word of God is sufficient.

There was a dark age for 400yrs from MALACHI before John came on the scene,nobody knew what happened for 400yrs.THEY ARE SILENT YEARS.Likewise after the ACTS of the Apostle,After the death of all the APOSTLES INCLUDING PAUL was a dark age in the church history.That is why it is advisable for you to stick TO THE 66 BOOKS CALLED THE CANNON OF SCRIPTURE. Why do you think other books were discarded and only these remained? It is God that was at work in the hearts of men all this while.My advise for you is not to enter into treacherous terrain because you want to discredit what you still don't understand.Stick to the 66 books God has ordained for the Church.To make matters worse for you guys Tithing is mentioned in the 66 books.

So you didn't know all these before you went to dig up an historical document to support your heresy that the saviour was a Pharisee? You need plenty of help. I know giving enough rope, you'll hang yourself without external help.

Go ahead and show from scriptures how the early church paid tithes. Go ahead, oblige the world with information how Paul a benjaminite cornered tithes.

Learn to read an article and understand it before you rush to copy and paste it on a public forum.

Bidam: You guys should get your facts right as bible students before crucifying me,because Jesus was in logger-heads with the pharisees doesn't negate the fact that he wasn't one of them.

I agree that the presentation of the Pharisees in the Gospels is generally negative. Jesus is seen to be disputing with them continually, which
suggests that his teaching was the antithesis of pharisaism. Closer investigation, however, does not support this suggestion.

Here is an article so you guys can learn

So Jesus was a Pharisee because his parents believed in Angels, Resurrection and the afterlife which the Pharisees also believed in. Therefore by this logic, most of us here are effectively Muslims since we also believe there are angels and the afterlife like the Muslims.

Pls Jesus was NEVER a Pharisee. It is an insult to say so. Everything about them was in opposition to what Christ termed true worship of the father. Pharisees were those who learned the law at the feet of some great Rabbi. Jesus didn't have this privilege. That the Pharisees believed some things Jesus believed in doesn't make him one of them. If you follow this thought, you would see yourself possibly as Hindu, Muslim, Bhuddist etc as you'll find there are some beliefs you share with each of the groups.


The only sensible thing from the article pasted is this

understanding of the times and culture aids in understanding the Word of God. The Word of God is not only His revelation but is a historical record as well. It was written during a time period and the men God inspired wrote from the perspective of that period to Jews of that period. It is important to understand the culture to properly interpret God’s word. We cannot read it from a 21st century western cultural perspective

If you believe this quote from the article you pasted, then it should help you understand the prevalent culture of the middle east as at the time Abraham lived. This would help you understand the reason behind most of his practices like the affair with Haggar that his wife suggested, his tithes to Melchizedek etc.

Paying attention to historical and cultural background of scripture will also make you realize that the early Christians COULD NOT HAVE PAID TITHES as the Levitical priesthood was still in full operation when Jesus was crucified in 29AD uptil the destruction of the temple in 70AD. How then could the apostles have hijacked this function of the Levitical order to themselves? How could they have been bold enough to collect tithes from the church?

This alone is full proof that the early Christians didn't tithe and it lends credence to the Catholic records of introduction of tithes into Christianity in 585AD.

mbulela: On the other side of the argument. All those preaching against tithe, i also hope your finances are as sold out to God as your anti-tithe sermons? I hope like Abraham you dare not withhold the Isaac of your finances? Knowing that He that gave you Isaac can and will bring him back from the death. Not enough to give left overs and be shouting. Not to tithe!!
Extremes are from the pit of hell.

God bless you for this. A Christian who realizes God owns him 100% will let go the hold of money on him.

Personally, it was when the hold of legalistic 10% got broken in my life did i become free of materialism. Before, once i pay tithe and give first fruits, i sat back expecting the promised windows of heaven to rain down and consume it on my lusts but now, i couldn't careless what i have or don't have.

I now know the truth of 'we brought nothing into this world, and it's certain we can carry nothing out'

If only our jet buying pastors will realize how empty and ephemeral things are, they'll start using their stupendous wealth to alleviate the dire economic conditions of the folks in their church buildings.

Give in your churches and ensure the funds are judiciously used for the gospel and for the needy. Only then can you be tagged a faithful steward of the resources God put in your care.

Some things not written expressly in scripture but which can be stated without fear of contradiction based on old testament history and laws. reading through the Old testament and the gospels, we can deduce the following


1. Jesus would NEVER have received tithes when he was on earth because he was not from the tribe of Levi.

2. The apostles would NEVER have received tithes because non was a Levite or serving at the Temple.

They all knew what the law says. Remember the law was in full operation then and the Levitical priesthood was in charge. I can confidently say here that if they had tried collecting tithes from any body, the Jews would have STONED THEM TO DEATH because it would have been Sacrilege. The law expressly said Levites collect the Tithes and remit 10% of it to the priest as a heave offering(Num 18:26-28)


The question now comes, how could the early Christians have paid tithe? who would they have paid it to?


Catholic history records tithe as being resurrected at a council in Tours(567AD) and Macon(585AD) and even then, it was strictly AGRIC produce NOT MONEY. Does it mean that all the Christians who lived in that span of over 500 years all sinned and are going to hell? Does it mean that they all broke a command of God? Does it mean they all died with devourers plaguing them all through?


How then did Tithe become a cardinal point of our Christianity today?

Alwaystrue: Thanks...Some pastors work in the ministry full time. Infact that was the expectation of Jesus Christ for the disciples and even Paul said he had a right not to work.

Paul decided to work so no man will make his glorying void. He decided to let go of the right of I Cor. 9:13-14. It was becaus of the same way we have people throwing a fit now untop of a tenth that He penned the below, people were actually examining him:

I Corinthians 9:3-4,6,15
3 Mine answer to them that do EXAMINE ME is this,
4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
6 Or I only and Barnabas, HAVE NOT WE POWER to forbear working?
15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

What is going on on NL is just history repeating itself. Just take time to study and you will understand that this is not new. Paul experience alot.

outright LIES. Get a binoculars if possible and search through that verse again, you'll NEVER FIND TITHES there. Those who insist on squeezing tithes in there are dishonest because they make Paul look like somebody suffering from selective amnesia. Why on earth would he forget to mention tithes even if just once?

Paul experienced opposition from people who would want to bring in Mosaic laws cunningly for their pecuniary gains.

The Jerusalem believers who already had the heart of giving sold their property and all and brought it to the feet of the disciples for sharing to everyone, even though some people still grumbled that they still did not get (Acts 6:1). They were giving their 100% and put in a place for all to take, If some were asked to try it here, they we quote scriptures that he that does not work should not eat. It is just so funny.

They gave 100% and every single person among them had their supplies met. Can any body honestly say the same for their churches today? If there is honesty in Christianity today, then we would have few needy people in Churches. However we find greedy overfed MOG having so much that some have more than enough to splash on articles of conspicuous consumption while competing with business moguls to the detriment of their flock.

Even at that, No mention of TITHE whatsoever can be traced to the early church.

If giving a tenth to the ministers can be such a challenge and can cause this level of quibbling, we then know the hearts of man. It is so easy to know a person with regards to how he acts when money matters are discussed.

Exactly!! a greedy and covetous person always twist tales to justify deceit. The tithe was for levites, widows, fatherless and strangers. It was NEVER meant for pastors. Is it it not evidence of greed and dishonesty for any body to try to twist the bible to deny the original beneficiaries of their dues?

It is one thing not to tithe and another to say tithe is abolished. It is either you believe it is right or you believe it is abolished.
It is just amusing seeing people swing to what favours them.....one minute believe tithe and another call it sin, abolished etc. That is the hypocrisy and unstability of it. They are double-minded.
Our giving is beyond a tenth because there are so many people to give to as listed above there.

The true givers will give to all or pray for grace to give to all with joy and happiness.

All Christians are encouraged to give very generously to worthy causes, be it in church or else where. We dont need so much to survive. If you've met your basic needs, then by all means, be a blessing to others. what shall it profit you if you accumulate all the wealth and die? of what use is it? but this exactly what tithe collectors do. They negate the purpose of giving.

Tithe has been abolished. What obtains in the new covenant now is freewill giving. Since tithe collectors try to bring it in through the back door, we remind them what the original purpose for tithe is.

TITHE HAS BEEN TRULY ABOLISHED BY THE CROSS. IF YOU WANT TO BRING IT BACK, THEN YOU MUST ENSURE IT'S DONE ACCORDING TO HOW GOD SAID IT SHOULD BE DONE AND THE BENEFICIARIES DO NOT INCLUDE PASTORS.

Alwaystrue: Examples of least of our brethren is not only the poor alone as we often think. It is anyone we are in position to feed, clothe, visit etc:

Matthew 25:34-37,40
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me


Least of the brethen is anyone from poor, needy, widow, ministers of God, family, friends, 'enemies', your workers....anyone you are in possession to help at any time. Loving our neighbour....nothing is substituted for the other....let us reach out to all as much as lies with us.

1. EMPLOYEES, WIDOWS and ORPHANS
Malachi 3:5
5 “At that time I will put you on trial. I am eager to witness against all sorcerers and adulterers and liars. I will speak against those who cheat employees of their wages, who oppress widows and orphans, or who deprive the foreigners living among you of justice, for these people do not fear me,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies

James 5:4
Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty



2. THE POOR
Proverbs 19:7
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his deed



3. DISCIPLES/PEOPLE IN MINISTRY
Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward

Philipians 4:14,18
4 Nevertheless, you have done well to share with me in my affliction
18 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God

Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I Corinthians 9:4,14
4 Do we not have the right to eat and drink?
9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain. Is it about oxen that God is concerned?
10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he?
14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel



4. FAMILY
I Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel

Isaiah 58:7
7 Share your food with the hungry, and give shelter to the homeless. Give clothes to those who need them, and do not hide from relatives who need your help



5. 'ENEMIES'
Romans 12:20
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head


6. HUNGRY, OPPRESSED, IMPRISONED
Isaiah 58:6-7
6 No, this is the kind of fasting I want: Free those who are wrongly imprisoned; lighten the burden of those who work for you. Let the oppressed go free, and remove the chains that bind people
7 Share your food with the hungry, and give shelter to the homeless. Give clothes to those who need them, and do not hide from relatives who need your help



This is the truth of the message.

Very good and commendable. Generousity and helpfulness is highly encouraged for Christians. see the purpose of tithes

Deut 14:27-29
'And the Levite that is withing thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him: for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.28.At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up withing thy gates:29.And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.'

According to the above reference, the beneficiaries of the tithes

1.Levites - cleaners, gate keepers, sanctuary keepers, choir, etc that served at the temple in Jerusalem

2.Widows

3.Strangers

4.Fatherless

Alwaystrue: The fleshly command that made only a certain tribe priests while others could not be come near or be put to death, was what was abolished in Hebrews 7:18. Jesus arose in the likeness of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:14)

True the fleshly command made only a select tribe priests but Thank God for the new covenant which makes you, i and every other Christian a priest.

1Peter 2:9
'But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Rev 5:10
'And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth'

Now we can approach unto the holy of holies because when the saviour died, the curtain blocking the holy of holies was rent in two from top to bottom. HALLELUYAH!!!

Tithes/offerings did not make or ordain the priesthood, God had prior said that tithes were His before He in a later chapter gave all the tithes to the Levites for the service which they serve.

The tithes have always been God's because he owned the land. The tithes that are holy unto the Lord are ONLY from the land. Lev 27:30,32. He then gave it to the levites for their service as they had no inheritance.The levites own the tithes, NOT the priests

How the law that was weak and unprofitable and that made nothing perfect is now termed as tithe shows the level of carnality we have on display here.

How the Tithes which was exclusively the preserve of Levites from Israel suddenly became the property of pastors beggars belief!! It's the height of dishonesty. How did tithe alone survive out of the 613 laws in the torah is shocking? could it be because of greedy and covetous considerations?

The tithe you claim from Mal 3 is STRICTLY OF THE LAW. any claim to the contrary is a blatant LIE and outright DISHONESTY.

For those who are willing to understand the bible, do your proper study and see that the whole book of Malachi is like the Revelation of the Old testament (as we see in the New testament).

It highlights everything that God did not like, his judgements on those who don't help even the widow, orphans, those who break the convenant of marriage and also prophesied of John the baptist and Jesus Christ coming so that the earth would not be smitten with a curse. This just showed making the the levitical priesthood as only priests did not make anything perfect, was weak and unprofitable.
Thus was the level of sin that was prevalent then. Just do your study.

And they will find that it's a reminder to do the WHOLE law, NOT just TITHING

Mal 4:4
'Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which i commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgements'

The above verse clearly showed God telling Israel through Malachi to obey ALL the laws of Moses. If tithe collectors are honest, why quote Mal 3:8-11 while leaving Mal 4:4?

The levitical priesthood has been abolished and so is the tithe created for its sustenance. The gospel is to be sustained by freewill giving today hence Paul could say 'every man as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give....'

Zikkyy: Thank you Candour.

Weldone jare Zikkyy. I always knew if you give the tithe collectors rope long enough, they'll always hang themselves. How can somebody agree that the law which covered tithing is a fleshly and weak commandment and immediately advocate adherence to Mal 3? forgetting that Mal 3 was a reminder of Mosaic law. So which law was then abolished by the cross?

Then Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour has become a Pharisee to some people too all in a bid to justify tithe Blasphemy of the highest order

My Joy is that at least, some people are seeing some verses in the bible for the first time and it will spur them to read and study the word more. Whatever they decide to do afterwards becomes their prerogative.

They wont be cajoled by some man using the word of God to threaten them.

God loves a cheerful giver my people, NOT a coerced and pressured one.

Alwaystrue: Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of COMMANDMENTS EXPRESSED IN ORDINANCES, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Exactly!! The law and it's ordinances have been abolished and this includes Mosaic law of Tithing to sustain the Levitical priesthood

MOSES SPEAKING HERE:
Deuteronomy 12:1,5-7, 13-14,32
1 These are the STATUTES AND ORDINANCES that you must carefully observe in the land that the LORD God of your ancestors has given you to possess every day that you live on the earth.
5 But unto the place which the Lord your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:

6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
7 And there ye shall eat before the Lord your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the Lord thy God hath blessed thee.

13 Take heed to thyself that THOU OFFER NOT thy burnt offerings IN EVERY PLACE THAT THOU SEEST:

14 BUT IN THE PLACE WHICH THE LORD SHALL CHOOSE IN ONE OF THY TRIBES, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt DO ALL THAT I COMMAND THEE

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it

Moses also said this just 2 chapters away

Deut 14:22-23
'Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.23.And thou shall EAT before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the TITHE of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flock; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always'

If we want to obey Moses fully, then the tither MUST eat out of the tithe and there is no allusion to spiritual food there. Any attempt to spiritualise it will be dishonesty and a blatant lie.

GOD SAYS IN THE FINAL BOOK OF THE OT:
MALACHI 3:8-10
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In TITHES AND OFFERINGS
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it

Which was a direct reference to the below.

Neh 10:38
'And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the CHAMBERS, into the TREASURE HOUSE'

The Priests, after collecting the 10% of the tithes from the Levites refused to bring it up into the storehouse hence the rebuke in Mal 3. It was a reference to the PRIESTS, NOT the children of Israel.

JESUS SAYS:
Matthew 23:23
"What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. YOU SHOULD TITHE, YES, BUT DO NOT NEGLECT THE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS.

Just Like Jesus also said the below in the same chapter. infact at the beginning of the chapter

Matt 23:2-3
'Saying, The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat:3.All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do: but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.'

Do you obey all the Scribes and Pharisees tell you? there are 613 of such laws. If you don't obey all, why single out Tithes?

PAUL SAYS:
I Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Don't you realize that those who work at the temple get their food from the temple? Don't those who help at the altar get a share of what is on the altar?
14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who spread the Good News should earn their living from the Good News

The Levites collect the tithes from the isrealites. The Levites are the cleaners, choir, gatemen etc in the temple. They only give the priests 10% of the tithes which means the priest effectively gets just 1% of the tithes of the generality of isreal. Is that the practice in your church? Do you give the tithes to the sanctuary keepers, ushers, choir etc? after which they will now give 10% of that to the pastor? If you dont follow this practice, then stop making reference to it for you'll be a law breaker.

Those who spread the good news should get sustenance from the good news in line with Matt 10:7-14 and Luke 10:3-8. NOT FROM TITHES.

As Abraham gave tithes and offerings to God in appreciation of God's blessing. Children of Abraham tithe and give God offerings to appreciate what God has given them and still God blesses with more. God is indeed faithful!

Abraham gave tithes and burnt rams and goats on the Altar. Do you burn your offerings on the Altar today? Abraham gave tithes from spoils of war that were not his, do you go to war today? Abraham gave away the remaining 90% after giving tithes to Melchizedek, do You give away the remainder of your salary after paying tithes today? Abraham gave tithes ONLY ONCE in his entire life, if we give more than once, are we still following Abraham's footsteps?

Elliotwiz1: i'm not supposed to eat the tithe, the tithe is for the ministers, for supporting the ministers that are somewhere doing evangelisin...somewhere in a hidden place where christianity is forbidden, They're risking their lives because of salvation! Do you dig? It's directly or Indirectly used to fund evangelism...and Who're you to insult the ones God has blessed?? Stop calling them thieves, what They're doing is scriptural! You can go ahead and believe in what you want to believe in.

I bet you never read this before. Its actually in your bible

Deut 14:22-23
'Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.23.And thou shall EAT before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the TITHE of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flock; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always'

The commandments from the above

1. Thou shalt Tithe

2. Thou shalt eat the Tithe

Why should you eat the tithe?

Ans: That you may learn to fear the Lord always.

Lesson: If you dont eat of your tithe, you obviously DO NOT FEAR THE LORD.

Elliotwiz1: mehn You're so on point, i got locked in an arguement on tithe once, it was so annoying because they don't even understand the bible passages they quoted... I tried to tell them that the ministers are the substitutes for the priests of old...very silly points that they bring up, It's foolishness, but to them is wisdom.

My dear @ the bolded is the silly and foolish statement.

So your pastor is equivalent of the priests of old? What then is the function of Christ in that arrangement? Do you know a priest is a go between? What then is the achievement of the cross? You really need to study your bible again.

You're placing your pastor on a pedestal God didn't place him. Are you a second class child of God?

Do you even know Levites, NOT PRIESTS collect tithes? Do you even know Priests only get 10% of the tithes collected which translates to 1% of all collections eventually?

Do you know you're meant to eat from your tithe? Read the following passages to get more knowledge

Num 18:21-32, Deut 14:22-29, Neh 10:37-39

God bless you

Alwaystrue: Malachi 3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In TITHES AND OFFERINGS

Funny how people see nothing wrong with giving their offerings in church and believe they are giving it to God but feel the Tithe is going to man.
Really we now understand what the bible says about Faith.

I thought we are talking Melchizedek and Abraham here? From whence did Malachi get into the field?

Funny how people see what they give in church today as the same offerings that Malachi was talking about here. How can any Christian NOT know that this offerings mentioned here referred to the peace offerings, meat offerings, evening sacrifices etc which we all know has been abolished by the cross of Christ.

Was it this kind of offering the widow of two mites gave?

The tithes referred to in Malachi WENT TO MAN. Read Num18:21-32, Deut 14:22-29, Neh 10:37-39 to confirm

They have faith to give offerings to God but cannot undertstand how the tithe is also for God. Yet God said TITHES and OFFERINGS. Without faith it is truly impossible to please God.

The offerings mentioned here are not the same like what you give in your church meetings today. All you do are collections. How does giving to God in faith translate to 10%?

Its amazing how we start with Abraham's tithe but must inevitably rely on Mosaic tithe through Malachi to sustain the tithe argument.

Blatant dishonesty if you ask me.

The goal is to first give ourselves to God and then we can give God everything but it is hypocritical to believe our 100% belongs to God but 'strain at a gnat' on giving out of it. The Lord knows those that are His.

If you truly give yourself to God, you won't be rating Him on the basis of 10%. God owns all and he's more valuable than that meagre, insultive and Pharisaical 10%.

The problem is when folks think giving to God is strictly when a pastor oversees the receiving. Even if you give a begger, Christ said you've given to him.

I thought after starting so well by acknowledging the fleshly nature of the commandments before Christ, they'll finally see the light, but the inevitable recourse to Malachi always derails them.

OLAADEGBU: What is the topic of this thread? You are now realising that you anti tithers had been barking up the wrong tree all along. Tithes and offerings are both forms of giving. If you give less than 10% you cannot consider that as a tithe as tithe is a tenth of what you possess. Anything above 10% is your offerings. True believers honour God with their substance as we can see in Proverbs 3:9

"Honour the Lord with your substance, and with the firstfruits of all your increase: So shall your barns be filled with plenty, and your presses shall burst out with new wine" (Proverbs 3:9-10).

So the widow who gave all is still guilty of not tithing right? Since she only gave an offering, NOT TITHE As also the new converts of Acts 2 must be guilty too.

So if I give 25%, I'm still guilty of not giving that special 10% right?

Also, look for another verse. That one you quoted says nothing about your 10% bro.

Meanwhile remember that argument had always being about a specific 10%, IT HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT GIVING

You cannot say no, Lord and still claim to have Him as your Lord, they are both mutually exclusive. It's either you believe what He said here or say that it doesn't apply to you. You cannot serve God and Mammon.

Exactly! So ensure you obey that injunction to the pharisees to the letter. You said Christ asked you to tithe just like he upheld the tithe practice of the Pharisees. So you'll be guilty of falling short of the required tithe if you have anything short or more than 10%.

Ensure you don't fall short. If you do, you break the law. Remember James 2:10

Speak for yourself Mr. anti tither. Paul strongly suggested percentage giving in the verse below:

"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come" (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

Mr Meticulous tither, how much is the percentage recommended by Paul in that verse? Kindly point it out if you see it. Pls try not to squeeze any lies into that verse. It won't paint you in a good light pls

You typed the verse out, so pls point it out so we all see it.

OLAADEGBU: Tithe means a tenth of one's income, it means 10%. Anything beyond that is no more a tithe but an offering. The poor widow and the disciples gave their 100% when it was necessary.

@the bolded.

Finally, a very profound truth from all the mesh.

God's Tithe is always 10%. No more, No less. Anything contrary to this is simply offering or better put collections. So those who say Rockefeller and the caterpillar magnate gave 90% tithe show their ignorance of the bible because tithe is strictly 10%. If you give less or more, and call it tithe, be rest assured you're no different from the fellow that simply gave money to any good cause and you will be no different from a law breaker since you claim to follow a laid down law. James 2:10.

Also, just like the pharisees of Matt 23:23 who were very meticulous in their calculation of tithe, if you must obey that verse, you must ensure your calculation is precise otherwise, you're worse than the pharisee.

After all said and done, with the above restrictions, its obvious there are NO FAITHFUL TITHERS today. All we have are givers, only some have yoked themselves to a self righteous percentage with which they can glory.

souldust: @okija juju I was born and brought up in Lagos. Never traveled home until i was a bit older. And anytime i travelled home, i dont spend so much time there.

All through my childhood days, we were the only people from my state living in the whole area. This means i am like that child that you said grew up in the UK where his language isnt too prevalent. I grew up up to know how to speak English, Yoruba and my local language just as i grew up to know my name and there is no interference what so ever.
This was made possible by my parent.
They spoke the language to me in the house, i learnt yoruba from my neighbours and English at school.

As for the constant practice, yes you are right. But if a parent always speaks the indeginous language to his child anytime he wants to talk to him and no matter how much time he spends with the child in a day even if it is one min, that child would definitely grow up to be able to speak his fathers language.

I'll try adopt the advice in bold and see how it works on my kid.

Thanks bro.