₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje: Theres no exemption of any worker in tithing. People tithed of all income..

Very untrue. Abraham tithed spoils of war only. Israelites tithed farm produce and livestock only. Nothing more.

Also it will be nice to remember Abraham's tithe is very different from Mosaic tithes.

Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees to tithe, but He Himself did not tithe. He was not required to tithe.

Very true. Kindly reiterate the bolded to all tithe collectors who have been lying all over Naira land that Jesus tithed for whatever ridiculous reason they've imagined.

My Lord DID NOT TITHE. He knew the law did not require tithe from anybody except farmers and livestock keepers.

Processor01: I totally agree with Bidam and Idnoble on this subject.

I went to a secondary school (FGC Ogbomoso) were people were initiated by eating in dreams. I would have mentioned names but hey, this is an open forum. I do not believe that a Christian can be initiated in anyway because he TOTALLY belongs to someone else and not just himself. However, the christian can be afflicted through dreams if he is not careful in his walk with God and ignorant of the devices of the devil.

My bro, its dangerous when you use your experience to establish a Christian doctrine. When I was in the demon killing by fire arena, without fail, I always had one bad dream or the other every single night. I mean every night. If i saw a cat, spider etc then, i always screamed 'die by fire'. I left that ministry in 2010 and I can confirm to you that I can't remember having such dreams again. The question now comes thus

Could it be that I was having dreams of demons regularly because they dominated my prayer points, praise and worship and my waking thoughts? You be the judge bro

I remember once God trying to teach me how we open back-doors to the devil into our lives by listening and watching seemingly innocent videos on Trace, MTV Base and the rest. I carried out an experiment on myself and anytime i had a full dose of those channels, i would have sexual intercourse in my dreams but whenever i steered clear or consciously prayed before going to bed, i enjoyed a blissful night.

If you watch all those music videos with their erotic dance styles, your mind becomes filled with sensuous thoughts and its inevitable you have such dreams my bro. It used to happen to me too. Even my Muslim friends had such experiences. It has nothing to do with demons. I worked in a bank for 7 years and I always had dreams that had to do with money. I even used to discuss money while sleeping my wife used to tell me. Eccl 5:3 comes to mind again bro. Free your mind and focus on your new status in Christ.

The devil is a fake that tries hard to mimic God. Same way God might speak to you through dreams(i have been led and warned via this medium countless times - @Candour, see Job 33:15) if he couldn't reach out to your in your conscious state is the same way the devil could try to manipulate you through dreams if he is unable to get at you consciously.

You're right the devil is fake. John 8:44 calls him the father of lies while Eph 6:11 says he has wiles. He's just a trickster my bro. Let's stop glorifying him. The verse about Job you quoted doesnt apply here bro because that verse talks about God speaking to a man. it wasn't talking about satanic oppression. Start reading from verse 14 to get accurate gist. Jesus died for you and rendered Satan powerless. He's powerless in my life anyway. Pls see him that way in your life.

I had a huge struggle with sexual dreams for a while and i believe that is only because i vowed in 2008 when i finally gave my life to Christ not to touch any woman until my wife arrives. Has it been an easy walk, not at all but God has been faithful, strengthening me all the way.

God will keep on strengthening you my bro. The devil can do you no harm. He's powerless concerning you. You're seated far above principalities and powers because you're in Christ.

Paul admonished us to renew our minds. Pls set yourself to this task of mind renewal through the word and you'll see whatever darkness scamper. Your life is hid in Christ, and Christ in God so who is the bagger that can dare come close? Dem never born am

anukulapo: @Jo and candor
Worse,it would contradict some of his teachings.
If the point he (the preacher) made is based on a strong conviction of his belief that money is that important so much that christ only visited those people,then,I am really sorry for him (the preacher)

I feel sorry for such a preacher too if he feels Jesus Christ was so moved by money. He obviously does not know Jesus Christ yet.

What baffles me is the meticulousness they adopt when it comes to any law that has to do with money. Imagine the sample calculation put forth in the write up. They almost make it look like God has cashiers and accountants in heaven to make sure we don't short change him. This write up is an attempt to ridicule the name of the almighty in my opinion.

This monetisation of the gospel has to stop. The absurdity has gotten to stinking levels.

Joagbaje: Jesus visited some wealthy people but his his visit and their wealth were only coincidences . It wasn't based on their wealth . We can't say Martha and mary were rich just becsuse she gave a very expensive perfume . Rich people don't do prostitution.

@bolded. I agree fully.

They were mere coincidences. Nothing more

Christians don't need deliverance from demonic forces because Christ already won victory over them 2000 years ago. Rather Christians need deliverance from traditions and superstitious beliefs. This particular case of eating in dreams with calamities following has no basis in the bible but is well entrenched in African superstition. Atimes we make our Christianity look like a modern version of Vodun religion and our churches as glorified witchdoctor premises with all manner of incantations in the name of prayer.

To a fearful Christian who doesn't know the full ramifications of the cross @ calvary, everything he/she sees must have imprint of Satan, demons or devourer. In this way they grovel in silent fear and awe of the powers of darkness.

I was in that circle for over 10 years and I know what damage it did to my psyche. I've been detoxifying and purging myself of the poisonous fears I imbibed all those years ever since through intensive study of the word of God and I can tell you there's nothing like being free of all those debilitating fears.

Some folks insist they get messages through dreams, I won't argue with them but dreams come as a result of multitude of business(Eccl 5:3). Your daily activities go a long way to dictate what kind of dreams you have so let's not get too paranoid about what we dream about. If you don't like the dream, cancel it and get going. Don't allow it mess up your mind.

We are conquerors already through Christ. Let's walk in the reality of this victory.

Indeed its all gone. Calvary put an end to traditions. Why continue in the shadows when the substance has come?

The cross put an end to the useless and unprofitable system of laws, ordinances and an earthly priesthood that was only concerned with the outward show and couldn't do anything to help the spirit man. Christ brought a better hope and covenant that works from the inside out to create a new being with fruits visible on the outside.

The old is indeed gone and buried. The new has come. Let us leave it that way. Any attempt to incorporate the old in the new deforms it and renders it unprofitable.

God bless you

Divepen: Many times some people will accuse some church member or some workers of their not attending the church weekly service...as if it is a sin
Do we have any biblical proof to support it is a sin?
And how do you feel when you missed one

Of course its not a sin. We've long practiced a legalistic form of Christianity that has made our church leaders draw up a list of do's and don't's that have no biblical basis. They might mean well, but they take away the joy of true personal fellowship with God.

The bible asks us not to forsake assembling together and its because togetherness in fellowship helps us encourage and exhort one another. We grow spiritually thereby so fellowship is for our own spiritual good, not to fill up an attendance register in heaven.

Also bible says man shall not live by bread alone. The food of the Christian life is the word and we are meant to hear and learn as we fellowship with one another. If you don't eat physical food, you feel hungry, you do not feel guilty. In the same way, if you miss fellowship hence miss a dose of the word of God, you should feel spiritually hungry, not guilty. Nobody should be allowed to make you feel like a sinner because you missed fellowship.

What you do if you're physically hungry is look for food and the same way you should look for spiritual food to make up for the one you missed.

Mark Miwerds: Hi Candour,

You are right. We should remain on the topic of tithes and I should not have responded to Olaadegbu's derailing of the topic.

Thanks for the soft rebuke. It is received and acknowledged.

God bless.

You're welcome bro. The pro tithe crew we discuss with don't play fair. I used to think they were honestly mistaken but I've come to realise they are actively, knowingly and intentionally promoting falsehood most likely because they are beneficiaries of the proceeds.

Imagine them using Abraham as leverage when all they preach in their churches is the horribly distorted version of Mosaic tithes. ThankGod there is a devotional from one of their pastors emphatically promoting Mal 3:8-11 pasted here. This devotional points them out as dishonest people deliberately twisting scriptures for gain.

God will keep exposing them by themselves.

Meanwhile, I love your signature. . It is an expression of what we've seen on this thread

Has the discussion suddenly shifted from tithes to Abraham's matrimonial affairs?

Hope Mark won't allow himself be distracted from the main issues. When folks realise they've been found out, they try to deflect attention away from the issue being discussed and I see that pattern being repeated here.

I hope I'm proved wrong anyway.

I really wonder why Mark Miwerds bothers with explaining Abraham's tithe. These guys don't follow Abraham's example. It was a big lie all along.

They practice a horribly distorted and perverted version of Mosaic tithe because their cardinal scripture is Mal 3:8-11 which is a clear reminder of the tithe laws of Lev 27:30-33, Num 18:21-32, Deut 14:22-29 and a direct reference to Neh 10:37-39 and Neh 13:10-13.

Abraham's tithe is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from Mosaic tithe in that Abraham tithed war spoils which is not acceptable under Mosaic tithing laws as spoils of war have a different formulae for administration(Num 31:25-54).

Nobody should fall for their trickery anymore. Pastor Chris of CEC has inadvertently let the cat out of the bag.

christemmbassey: @Candour, since i saw this thread, i've been thinking from which angle to contribute. Nice thread though, but ip has really troubled me and make me to ask questions like - what happened to Nigerian christianiy? Is there anything like 'a true christian' and 'a false christian? How are we ever going to get it back considering what is obtained in our churches today. Do you know that if you av opportunity and you refuse to steal, ur village, family, wife/husband, children, church members and especially ur pastor will call you a fool n even curse you. Do you know, if u steal, u'd be celebrated, given awards by universities, govts, associations etc, communities fighting to give u chieftaincy, churches will make u pastor and men will dash u their daughters, pastor's wife will give u even fellow members wives/daughters, bros, i've seen n heard so much dat i remain a christian today bc of God's grace do u know, in MOST churches, if they know dat u are a man of integrity, u'd nt b given any post, and they will tag u 'holier than thou'. How many time au you heard in this forum the following: 1. Don't judge, 2. Are u d God dat call him? 3. Touch nt my annointed, 4. If pastor steal church money, u should nt ask questions, 5. Smbody steals money n give to a church, d pastor refuse to return d money n d church members ask u, is he d only thief?- i tell u a story, in 2009, our senior pastor's wife bought a baby n d Daddy GO announced to us on sunday dat d mummy we saw on tuesday with flat tummy has just put to birth on sunday, bros i've never seen such a miracle in my life, when every hypocrite went n greeted mummy n thanked God for save delivery, when i could nt join d fray, i was marked dawn, accused of hating mummy n eventually made to leave d church. Bros forget integrity in naija church. Is A pastor who ask u to pay for a devotional for evangelism n turn round to sell d same book for ppl dat supposf to get it free, or d pastor who sells a ministry material clearly n boldly marked NOT FOR SALE, bros, pray for our pastors to repent, let God touch their hearts and then hopefully integrity will return. God bless sir.

You're right my bro.

This is where all Christians need to do an introspection and make corrections to our value system. A situation where success is prized above integrity will not augur well for our efforts to win the world for Christ. All we will succeed in doing is filling our pews with people with no interest in things of eternal value.

We have to make individual decisions to change before we all get lost in the maze of corruption and decadence in the world.

God bless you plenty

ayoku777: Deut 14v26 (KJV) And thou shall bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth; and thou shall eat there before the Lord thy God and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thine household.

(NLT) When you arrive, you may use the money to buy any kind of food you want—cattle, sheep, goats, wine, or other alcoholic drink. Then feast there in the presence of the LORD your God and celebrate with your household. (NLT)

(NIV) Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. (NIV)

(ESV) And spend the money for whatever you desire— oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. (ESV)

If there is no pride in this debate, this scripture should end all arguments.

Coz if drinking wine is a sin, then this scripture means God is condoning sin. And that is heresis on every level.

Thanks ayoku, I'd been waiting for somebody to quote this verse you just put up. Its expressly written wine and strong drink. Maybe they'll be bold enough to call God Almighty a sinner for saying that.

@the bolded. Its not pride as we know it per se, but pride built and propped up by acute ignorance. They don't know, but refuse to take the time to study more on the subject.

I don't drink alcohol just like I very rarely drink sweetened carbonated drinks because I do not see any thing I benefit from both. It has nothing to do with righteousness. Moderation is key. You can eat too much and commit sin of gluttony(greed) like you drink too much and fall into drunkenness.

I trust somebody to come and accuse you of trying to use old testament to justify alcohol. This of course will further highlight the ignorance we are talking about.

You guys should continue the discussion while I learn by the sidelines.

Joagbaje: That's the more reason you should know its beyond spoils of war . Or crops and livestock. We only have record of spoils of war that doesn't mean ABRAHAM tithed once. It's a life . Jacob tithed all. Every one ought to tithe from all earning .

@the bolded. Very wrong and untrue statement.

Jacob VOWED to tithe. It was not a regular practice for him. If it was, he wouldn't have made it a vow and there is no record that he fulfilled the vow. Its that simple and straightforward really.

Don't let Joagbaje confuse you with immemorial principle nonsense. See the true face of tithe his pastor preaches. Even though its totally wrong, at least the G.O is honest about the reason for his tithing unlike the scriptural gymnastics we've been subjected to here.

https://www.nairaland.com/393253/rhapsody-realities-daily-devotional/9#8071513

The Giving That Stands You Out – Thursday April 7, 2011 – Pastor Chris

And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet (Acts 4:36-37).

It’s impossible for a Christian who only gives his tithes and offerings to feel like an accomplished giver, but the Bible lets us know these aren’t enough. Your tithes for example belong to God, and He expects you to give them to Him anyway. The man who does otherwise is a robber: “Will a man rob God: Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings” (Malachi 3:8 ).

God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); He’s God. So you MUST give Him your tithes and your offerings, as God. Actually, you pay your tithe; you don’t give it, as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift. Your offering on the other hand isnt just a donation made to the Church, but a sacrifice offered to a divine being. God actually demanded for it in Exodus 23:15: “…None shall appear before Me empty-handed” (AMP).

So, beyond your tithes and giving your offerings, which are compulsory for every believer, you have to go the extra mile by getting financially involved in the spread of the Gospel. This type of giving is special because it isn’t a compulsion, but is done out of your love and commitment to the Gospel. 2 Corinthians 9:7 (AMP) says, “Let each one [give] as he has made up his own mind and purposed in his heart, not reluctantly or sorrowfully or under compulsion, for God loves (He takes pleasure in, prizes above other things, and is unwilling to abandon or to do without) a cheerful (joyous, “prompt to do it”) giver [whose heart is in his giving]. This is the giving that stands you out.”

Remember it’s in your interest and in your favour when you give to the Lord, for He has promised great returns and mighty harvest of blessings for the giver. So be sure to be counted among those who give financially towards the things of God. In our Ministry, we have several platforms through which we reach millions of souls around the world every day with the Gospel. Locate such opportunities and participate big-time. That’s how to get relevant in the Kingdom and make your life count.

Prayer
Dear Father, thank you for the available opportunities I have to give towards the work of the Kingdom today, realizing that they’ve been put in place for me to make my relevance and impact in world evangelism felt through my giving. Thank you Lord, for continuously increasing my capacity to give, in Jesus’ Name. Amen,

Further Study
Luke 8:2-3
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Daily Scripture Reading
1 Year Bible Luke 11:14-36
Reading plan Judges 3-4

2 Year Bible Matthew 27:55-66
Reading Plan Leviticus 7

Rhapsody of Realities Pastor Chris Oyakhilome
----------------------------------------------------

Any time Joagbaje in particular talks his deceitful nonsense, shove this in his face.

[quote author=i.chuka]Proveb10:9 Whoever walks in integrity walks securely,but whoever takes crooked paths will be found out.
Matt7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Great write-up bro![/quote]Thanks bro.

I pray God helps us to truly shine the light of integrity so we can be a beacon of light in a corrupt world.

God bless

@Enigma

Egbon, I say weldone. God will continue to deliver his children from crooks in suit who have made the gospel for which the apostles paid the supreme price nothing but a business.

I've always believed and said given enough Rope and time, the tithe proponents will always hang themselves. This is because their argument is predicated on falsehood.

This thread from 2011 throws all the stories about tithes as a principle out the window but knowing the pedigree of our tithe collectors here, I trust they'll conjure up another crooked way to wriggle out. However whichever way they decide to use, the bible and the truth it contains will always find them out.

Zikkyy: I stand by my claim pending further details from Oyedepo little book. am yet to hear a pastor preach that tithe is not expected to work all the time. Tithers always been fed with the belief that tithe works 100% of the time. If you have info that says otherwise kindly share. and as stated stated by truthislight, maybe the little book also says the devourer will not devour all the time.

Infact, I think I have gotten hold of the famous 'little book' image123 is talking about. Was searching through my mini library this morning to read my daughter a story book before taking her to school and out fell a small book with title 'COVENANT WEALTH' written in 1992 by Oyedepo and reprinted in 2009.

I just skimmed through the book again and shook my head at the 'snake oil merchant' tactics used all over. He talks about obedience to the law working all the time because God cannot fail, then he brings the caveat of having kingdom expansion interest otherwise it will not work. Ingenious I tell you.

This book puts to bed all the lies about tithe not being of the law. Mal 3:8-11 was the focus of this book. He only made little remarks about Abraham's obedience. If this book is anything to go by, tithe promoters lie greatly if they say Malachi doesn't inform their adherence to tithing. Oyedepo, the chairman of them all relies on it fully.

DrummaBoy: @ Candour

Indeed it is very neccesary that we be reminded of scriptures like this.

This was the scripture I quoted when I wrote my Pastor asking him of the need for the church to account for the finances that comes to them through tithes, offerings, seeds and vows. I was ignored and given the impression that I was "questioning God".

I am thankful to God they ignored me because it made me to question the scriptural basis of my giving to that assembly and the rest, like they say, is history. O yes, I stopped tithing.

I find it difficult to understand why men think they can be accountable to God they cannot see when they cannot account to men they can see. Apostle Paul showed us in that scripture that the mark of integrity is to show accountability to both God and men, and it is something our ministers can imitate today.

I agree with you bro. We have to remind ourselves about things like this regularly.

1John 4:20 calls us liars if we claim we love God but do not show that love to our brethren. In the same vein how can you claim to be transparent with God whom you cannot see when you refuse to be transparent before your brethren whom you see everyday? A Christian should not leave people to be guessing on matters of probity, prudence and accountability. They must be evident in our lives and in plain sight for folks to behold.

The secular world demands it of its people, how much more we Christians who claim ties with a holy God?

If we truly love God and our neighbours, INTEGRITY must be our manual for daily living.

Alwaystrue: @OP,
Thanks for the continuation of this series and the word for today.

I see integrity based on the highly technical field I work with as ability to withstand, to be stable,not easily tossed to and fro by every wind. To be true to the purpose. Are external forces determinants of our internal or the other way round?

Jesus copiously showed this when he spoke about the house built on the rock and that built on sand...Matthew 7:24-29.
How easy it is to be swayed or buckle under pressure will reflect the level of integrity a person has. How strong is our anchor to Jesus no matter the buffetting we may receive from the world? What is our surety?

Proverbs 24:10 says if we faint in the day of adversity our strength is small.
How true are we to our words and how faithful, steadfast and planted are we?
May we remain steadfast in Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Integrity stands in opposition to Hypocrisy.

Yes you're very correct. Integrity means standing firm on the truth irrespective of the opposition. It means a display of untainted honesty irrespective of whose ox is gored. Its being steadfast even at great personal cost.

A Christian with integrity is one who doesn't think of gain before speaking up. Whether the truth is popular or not, a man of integrity will stand by it.

This should be the creed by which Christians should live. God knows how to reward us eventually. May we receive grace to be steadfast indeed.

God bless you richly.

Divepen: intergrity is the best link to prosperity

My bro, thanks for your contribution. However are you talking of financial prosperity or prosperity of the inner man? Maintaining a life of integrity in a morally decadent world will cost you. Corruption will always fight back and mercilessly too.

Some might be lucky to see their integrity pay them back handsomely but its not the rule. Rather its the exception. People of integrity will always be persecuted and I doubt if this will lead to prosperity.

As Christians however, we must endeavour to display integrity every time at all cost. That is the way of the cross.

God bless you

uboma: Love is the identifying mark of true Christians. With such unselfish love, all vices will be eliminated and peace and harmony will be the order of the day.

Yeah love is the summary of the law according to Christ. He that loves his neighbour has fulfilled the law. Love will make us live honest lives as we avoid cheating or deceiving others.

This thread is just about encouraging us to let the offshoots of love become evident in our lives.

God bless you

Tithe proponents ALWAYS claim VEHEMENTLY that they follow Abraham's tithe version because they know very well that they can't defend the tithe practice of today when placed side by side with Mosaic law of tithing. Num 18:21-32, Deut 14:22-29 will ALWAYS throw their lies back in their faces and reveal today's tithe practice as nothing but a fraud totally deviated from the model of administration spelt out in the law.

However, we all know Abraham tithed spoils of war and Mosaic tithing does not accept spoils of war. God clearly spelt out a different method of administration for spoils of war(Num 31:21-54) So how on earth can you try to use one to justify the other? They are totally different in form and administration. If this isn't dishonesty, I wonder what it is.

Scriptural gymnastics is at its full glory on this thread and its making for a great read. Let the scriptures keep flying anyway, we are learning plenty new things.

INTEGRITY - Mark Of A True Christian

2Cor 8:21
‘Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men’

The apostle Paul penned the words above in his second letter to the Corinthian Christians. A little background to why he said those words will be relayed here. He had requested a collection to be made for onward transfer to the Jerusalem Church to mitigate the sufferings those saints were facing due to persecution and famine(Acts 11:28-29, 2Cor 9:1, Gal 2:10). This contribution was being raised from all the Gentile churches Paul established and arrangements for taking it to Jerusalem were being made. Paul had to allow the churches to select other believers to accompany him on his journey bearing the gift to Jerusalem and this was done for the only reason that every body’s mind will be at rest that their contributions were being utilized for the purpose for which they were made (2Cor 8:18-22). The great apostle wanted all dealings to be plain. He did not want to wound the consciences of his people. He wanted his integrity to be displayed in plain sight. Of course he didn’t doubt his own integrity, God could attest to that but a loving and considerate Christian leader did not want the believers he suffered so much for to fall into sin on account of suspicions, side talks, rumors that might arise due to his sole handling of the monies collected. That is INTEGRITY.

The word Integrity comes from the root word integer which means whole, complete or entire. It is a firm adherence to a code of morals, values, and behavior. Integrity is uprightness of character, trustworthy action, and responsible commitment. Integrity is a refusal to be false to a trust, responsibility, or pledge. It is the quality of being honest and fair and It must be on display for all to see if we are truly Christians. Integrity should be the standard for the normal Christian life.

Christ asked us to let our light shine brightly before all men so they’ll see our good works (Matt 5:16) and a lifestyle of integrity is one way through which our light will shine and pierce through the lives of unbelievers all around us. A Christian must live a life of transparency; a life not afraid of scrutiny at anytime. It’s only those who walk dishonestly that fear and reject being scrutinized because they know their deeds are evil and unworthy of the name they are called by(John 3:20). If the world can affirm that ‘HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY’, how much more we that are called by the name of the most holy God? Integrity is the hallmark of solid character and we Christians should be people of strong character if our Christian testimony is to be effective. Let us endeavor to be emulate Daniel who had a very valid testimony of integrity that his detractors confirmed it and had nothing to accuse him of except in his devotion to God (Dan 6:4-5). In the work place, in the home, in the Church INTEGRITY must be our guiding principle. A lot of attributes are associated with INTEGRITY. Among them we have CONSISTENCY and TRANSPARENCY. Consistency in our life makes us reliable people. How often do you change positions to fit into a particular mould? Do your words constitute your bond? Can people rely on the testimony of your mouth on issues you’re involved in? brethren, a consistent Christian is a reliable person. Transparency is the willingness to welcome scrutiny at any given time. We Christians must be ready to face the scrutiny of the world because that is when they can put our convictions to the test to ascertain what we claim we carry. All our dealings must be carried out in a way that allow people to see us for who we are. No hidden agenda whatsoever.

Our churches must be centers of integrity. No shady dealings should be allowed to becloud the testimony of the church. Probity, Prudence and accountability must guide our every move. From the clergy to the lay member, we must demand accountability from ourselves. There is nothing that destroys Integrity in this present world faster than the lure of mammon and what it can acquire. Christ told us we cannot serve God and mammon and we would do well to believe it. Let us be guided by the fact that our hope is based on a kingdom beyond this plain. Apostle Peter advised us to have our manner of living honest among the gentiles(1Pet 2:12). Our witness will be more effective thereby.

Let us end with this reminder from apostle Paul

Rom 12:17
‘Recompense to no man evil for evil, Provide things honest in the sight of all men’

God bless you richly

[quote author=fr_evangel]Joel is not a man of God, Christians should not listen to him. I'm surprised y'all don't know this already.
He is a new age preacher. The face of Universalism and the anti-church!
@Candour, I'm surprised you don't already know this.
If he sends a book with some dollars included, add a few dollars and mail back to him.
It is a very serious issue.

Lastly, I think we are getting used to some wrong doctrines that have lingered for so long that we can now condone them.
Selling even for lower than the cost, messages etc, is wrong.
I will have to see where Jesus or the Apostles did or encourage such to give a rethink.
I rather stick to scripture than use business logic to analyze the things of the Spirit.

What we should think of is how to earn money and pay for it or get others who will pay for the materials and it should be given out FREE OF CHARGE!
I will not an inch condone any form of exchange.

Not to mention the fact that it is absolutely wrong and against scripture to SELL in the place of fellowship.[/quote]My bro, i didnt want to derail your thread. Actually nlMediator and i have had a discussion about Joel Osteen in the past on this thread below

https://www.nairaland.com/1435400/false-promise-prosperity-gospel-why#18106878

So i'm sure sure we both know where we stand on his Doctrine.

Tgirl4real: You said it well brother. I believe well meaning preachers wouldn't be after profit.


Have been around. Things hav been dull around here. Na soso tithe threads full everywhere.

I think they have reduced now sha. lol

@ the bolded

Tgirl4real: To ans the topic directly, I would say yes, they should for a reasonable fee. They used money to publish the books and did not get d CDs for free. However, there should be a free version people can download for free.

Also, if the entire process was funded by some people, then they shouldn't sell.

Tgirl4real, where went thou since?

@the bolded.

I owe a great deal of my spiritual development in recent times to the materials available for free on a website hoisted by an American Sunday school teacher. All his work of 40 years or more are all available on the site for download free of charge.

I too believe we should be ready to part with money for the materials but profit shouldn't be the first thing on our minds. If the organization is buoyant enough to give them out fro free, then they should. Anyway, nlMediator has cleared up plenty things for me.

I just pray God plants a large spirit of Integrity, probity and accountability in all his Children so we can deal honestly with each other and all these corner corner things will fade away

nlMediator: You're welcome, brother.

I think we're mixing up a number of things: whether a book should be sold for a profit, subsidy for the "poor" and what can be done with the proceeds. I believe books should be sold at fair market value. There's nothing wrong in the Church copying good things from the secular society. We're here using a forum developed by non-christians. But our purpose is different from those who use the platform for selfish or ungodly ends. The apostles tried socialism or perhaps more accurately communialism, but how long did that last? If a church discovers an oil well on its land, it should sell the oil for the price other people sell. It can then use the money to finance the gospel. Of course, it can also subsidize some of the gasoline (if it also refines the crude) for some less privileged members. But the moment it decides that the oil or gasoline should be provided almost free of charge, is the day the devil would take advantage of it and you see people getting the cheap fuel without embracing the Savior. So, I say, sell the books at a profit. Make some of the books available for free or at a reduced price, so that many will be blessed by the message and improve their lot and then be able to join in sponsoring the gospel. However, the job of subsidizng the book should not rest on the writer (pastor) alone. Other members that have been blessed in other spheres can take it upon themselves to support in some form or fashin, e.g., buy copies in bulk and distribute to members in that church. BTW, I believe pastors share some of their books free of charge. I was pleasantly surprised to pick in the mail recently a copy of Joel Osteen's latest book, Break Out. He sent it to me without my requesting or paying for it.

God bless you dear brother. I dont think i have any thing serious to add to your post. The greater good of the majority of Christendom is what i believe every Christian should pursue and work towards.

I'm pleasantly surprised at your receipt of Joel Osteen's book without paying for it. Now that's what we are talking about. If the ministry has been blessed that they can afford to do such free ventures, then they shouldn't hoard the blessings. It should be spread to benefit more and more people.

Maybe you should tell him you have a brother here that wouldn't mind getting that free book

Cheers bro and i wish you the very best.

Joagbaje: Either he make gain or not That's not the point here. We were not there. The point is that a minister material can be purchased . Paul bought books . And men bought his materials .

If the books were circulated fee , who pays the printing bill

You didn't get me. Apostle Paul NEVER sold his books(epistles). He wrote letters to the churches. They were not books you could buy off the streets. If the Chruch in Lystra for instance wants to get the letters to the Thessalonians, all they need do was hire scribes from anywhere to copy them and they got their copies. Contributions from the church saw to this.

Pls dont make it look like the apostles were writing books on prosperity, healing or whatever like we have today. See what he said about the letter to the church in Colosse

Col 4:16
'And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea'

That is how the early Christians got the letters of Paul. Any rich man who wanted a personal copy and could afford it simply hired a scribe who might even be a pagan to do a copy for him like a typist would. This process had nothing to do with the apostle. The profit went to the Scribe, not the apostle or the church.

The scribes were the printing press of that day.if a ministry has printing press . It's like a business And they must collect their money.. Who pays the staff? And maintenance of the place. The money comes from sales . The bottom line is. It's not out of place to buy a material you need. If the material is sold at cost price or given free or sold a little above cost price . It's nobody business . If you can pay for compilation of bible then pay for any material you want . After all you're not forced . It's not everybody that bought parchment in bible days . It's those who have value for it.

The church had nothing to do with the sales or profits from making copies of epistles of the apostles. It was a business transaction strictly between individuals and external scribes who might not even be Christian.

For our modern day gospel book business, you're right that costs are incurred. However the question is still what motivates the writing of gospel materials? Is it financial gains or spreading the gospel? Imagine if the early missionaries had commercialized the gospel they brought, where would some of us be today? Maybe we might still be wallowing in spiritual darkness.

They brought schools, hospitals etc which helped in reaching the hinterland with the gospel and they did them for free or at an extremely reduced cost. This is the way for anybody who is truly after souls of men and NOT MONEY. The problem is that these books are sold at way over the price for similar secular books. This shows profit is the sole focus of the production despite the reduced cost of production compared to secular books.

Are the staff who work at the church printing press well paid like those who work in secular printing presses set up primarily for profit? Are the ushers who serve as marketing staff paid for their job? It is hypocritical for a pastor to sell his books at a premium yet refuses to pay a competitive salary to the staff at the press. The staff who most times are members of the church are told to manage whatever they receive because they're working for God but pastor remembers to apply a Capitalist mindset when he wants to place a price tag on the books. This is application of double standard and shows dishonesty.

nlMediator: While I have also wrestled with the issue a bit, there are 2 reasons I can think off the top of my head why books should be sold and for a profit. People often do not value things that they receive for free. I have a number of books in my study I received free of charge. I probably would have read some of them by now if I paid for them. This is not a problem exclusive to christians. Second, a minister needs to make money from the books as an incentive to put the effort required for a quality product. If the minister is virtually working for free (or only for a salary), he may not ALWAYS be as motivated to do the extra stuff required for a first class product. The genius of our capitalist system is this understanding that what gets incentivized is what gets done. Successful executives and entrepreneurs have deployed the concept to remarkable success. I know some people would adopt a holier-than-thou attitude and note that ministers are under an obligation to produce the books; otherwise they're not truly called. Well, I choose to live in the real world. Many of the people saying such are not doing all they are called to do as christians either (preaching, praying without ceasing, dominating their flesh, etc). It's folly to assume others would always do. That's why communism collapsed, even in China. Good intentions are not enough. And our God seems to subscribe to this incentive-based approach, seeing all the Biblical references to the reward of diligence.

God bless you dear brother for your frankness.

You are correct that people do not value free things. Our Salvation is free and most people do not value it but is that enough reason to put a price tag on it? Will that make the gospel message more readily acceptable to the world? The gospel came free to us. We have to stop commercializing it. Like you, i have books in my mini library that i do not pay any attention to. Some i bought and some are free. I never attended to them because they had no intrinsic value to me. Price DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT determine worthiness of gospel materials. The spirit behind it is what gives it value. Pls we have to stop using the business tactics from the world to help the gospel. It's the Holy Spirit that convicts and moves in the life of people to be receptive to the gospel, NOT the packaging of the material.

Capitalism is good for progress but it has it's very negative sides which no anointing can stop and that is GREED and COVETOUSNESS. The early church was socialist in nature but it's not like the apostles sat down to determine which social or economic system to follow. The socialist nature just arose out of a tremendous outpouring of love among the early believers to one another. Our ministries have become capitalism has no mercy for the less fortunate. Merchandise of one sort or the other fill the airwaves and you can see shameless profiteering all around. Even a lot of these books have little value because they are plagiarized copies of other writer's works yet they carry price tags that will make secular novelists green with envy.

Printing of books cost money we all can agree on that. However we have to ask ourselves this question. What motivates our Pastor-authors today? Financial gain or desire to spread the gospel? If it's profit, they are no better than Robert Ludlum or Sydney Sheldon and would do well to remove the appellation of pastor from their names. If it's the spread of the Gospel, then they need to think of how to reach those who cant afford to buy these materials. Making it free or making it very cheap will surely help. The rich MUST subsidize these things for the less fortunate among us and most of our prolific christian writers of today fall into the stupendously rich category. It's not too much to give some things free of charge.

If they are honest, The ministries of today have enough resources to truly share the gospel free of charge. This is not an attempt to be holier than thou, but It's what the master wishes for his followers.

Joagbaje: Right from bible days books were bring sold. Even scriptures. How do scribes get paid? Those who could afford it pay to have copies . Materials were circulated in their days. Paul's material circulated . He read the books of others and his books were copied and circulated . How did PETER get Paul's material .

What did he tell Timothy to study? What books and parchment was paul reading?

2 Timothy 4:13
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.


Materials were documented in bible days and those who could afford them paid got it. How did Ethiopian eunuch get the book of Isaiah . How did Daniel get the book of Jeremiah to study. Baruch was helping Jeremiah to spread his message . Either openly reading it or masking copies available.

I believe we all know the difference between a SCRIBE and a Minister of the Gospel. Paul was a preacher of the word, He was not a scribe. If Paul's epistles were sold, you can bet your house Paul wasn't taking any profit from it and if he found out, he would have lashed out heavily against the crooks doing that.. Scribes wrote books, copied books and sold but Paul a minister of the gospel of Jesus preached and wrote epistles which were delivered free of Charge to all the churches.

I believe no pastor will tell us he patterned his ministry after the example of the scribes. These class of people had become greedy monsters by the time of Christ and hear what he had to tell them

Matt 23:14
'Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! f[b]or ye devour widows' houses[/b], and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation'

I believe Jesus told them this because they had made the scriptures unaffordable to the common man, even widows because they priced the books of the law beyond the reach of these vulnerable members of the society and we see that happening today because of greedy considerations.

The Job of Scribes in bible days was mainly secretarial. They were in charge of the King's records and other administrative duties and this was the position held by Baruch. He kept records as can be seen in his handling of land purchase documents for Jeremiah (Jer 32:9-14) and he also did secretarial duties for Jeremiah when he wanted to proclaim messages from Yahweh to the Jews (Jer 36:4-6). He did not copy the books for sale

Paul didn't write books for sale, Timothy didn't and Peter didn't. If the scribes did, you can be sure it wasn't gospel materials.

God2man: are you confessing?

God2man.

What do you think?