₦airaland Forum

desiredhome:
Does your divine property mean you should contribute your life saving for one man to live large while you live in penury?
What is wrong with you African? You claim to be more blessed for giving to your pastorprenour, yet you are the poorest in the world. Despite all the natural resources? :'

I think I have replied you earlier, it's either you are one of the scammer or one of the blind follower of this con men that just want to argue.
Stop living in illusions, face the real fact.

Until the Church have positive impact to the society, they are serving their belly not God

The housing estate you are talking about that you and over half of your members can't live in? Does Oyedepo know if people like you exist?

It's like you just learnt of emotional that is why you keep saying emotional while the facts are there.

What you people are good at is suffering and smiling

May God deliver you from these Pentecostal cabals

Hebrew 11:4 . Abel had a more excellent seed by reason of faith. If any believer is giving for the sake of making Oyedepo or Adeboye rich and then expecting them to in return give his seed, multiplied, back to him, then that person is at fault and not the pastors.
Let me ask you another question since you cannot answer the one I have asked so far. What if the seeds were never used to build a school or housing estate and it was being shared to needy fellows, will it be appropriate in your own opinion if the poor givers you are advocating for queued for assistance knowing that they gave part of the seeds being shared?

ponziponzi:
Some of these people encouraging this act cannot even afford to attend or send their children to any of the schools or apartments built by their church. Some of them don't even have jobs and are really struggling but they will always defend their church or pastor. They can't help it, cognitive dissonance is real. I pity most of them.

Just the same way some of the people encouraging the govt by paying tax can't afford 40k-50k federal university but that doesn't make the govt a bad one or a scam. Did the church say they are building the city for affordability sake of all? Just empty emotional outburst as expected. If anyone is too poor and wants to own one let him save his money or accept his/her fate after serving God.

desiredhome:
God is not an author of confusion, and God can not lie.
if for over 30years of Winners chapel where he said God told him to come and make his people prosper yet there are more poor and poorer people in his Church today despite all the Shiloh sacrifice etc they do (forget about all the packaging), I doubt if God will ask him to build school that only the rich and corrupt politicians stealing our money can afford.

Its only a man without conscience that will see his child or brother hungry and rather than assist him will tell him to go and pray and have faith while he is building mansions all over the place.

Until we realize that the Church of God is not the buildings that we spend billions upon billions to build but the people in the Church.


There are Churches, individuals that are giving affordable school even free, do your research and you will get result

The bold is up to you to prove by supplying info about any church or ministry doing such. Don't make claims and the ask me to prove it.
I hope nduchucks, is still following. These guys can't back up their "points" with any church doing what they advocated for. Just empty poverty inspired emotional outbursts.

desiredhome:
God is not an author of confusion, and God can not lie.
if for over 30years of Winners chapel where he said God told him to come and make his people prosper yet there are more poor and poorer people in his Church today despite all the Shiloh sacrifice etc they do (forget about all the packaging), I doubt if God will ask him to build school that only the rich and corrupt politicians stealing our money can afford.

Its only a man without conscience that will see his child or brother hungry and rather than assist him will tell him to go and pray and have faith while he is building mansions all over the place.

Until we realize that the Church of God is not the buildings that we spend billions upon billions to build but the people in the Church.

There are Churches, individuals that are giving affordable school even free, do your research and you will get result

As far as divine prosperity is concerned, it is a one to one thing between the individual and God.
Didn't you read where a poster before you reminded us of how welfare schemes meant for the needy amongst us was hijacked by some pastors, deacons and member? Will God now honour the seeds or practices of such men and women just because they are under his prophet he told to make his people rich?
You are trying to make a divine mandate into a physical wealth transfer scheme here. Did Jesus heal everybody when on earth? No. bit he was sent to all. After honouring the Father in heaven, people still have the choice of wholeheartedly receiving him or rejecting him. Stop making a carnal scheme out of a divine mandate.

desiredhome:
I have been in these Pentecostal churches for long so I know how they operate.
There is no difference between winners, rccg or any private owned Church (Pentecostal) when it comes to money, they have turn the church from spirituality materialism (pravate business).

There is nothing like devil advocate here, you can't hide away from the truth, building schools from the Church and the poor whereby only the rich can afford a scam, that is the issue here, I don't care how they operate/run their school.

Giving in faith to these men is all brainwashed lies you've been fed with, the reason we pay tax to government is so there will be better life for it's citizen, the reason we sow/ give to the Church is so that there will be meat(food) in the house of God as well care for the needy(members)
You don't give so that the pastorprenours will use it to build empire for themself, while over 70% of its member are poor and getting poorer.

You can tell that to your gullible followers Let them instruct their members to stop giving in just one year let us see how he will still be bragging of being the richest pastor

I ask again what is the impact of the Church to the society or even its members?


There is nothing like being emotional.

Hmmm... Did God give go ahead with the schools? Oyedepo for example told his church members about the vision of the school some 20 years before it was established and I doubt that could have been part of a scam.

Show a me a church that does what you are asking from the Pentecostal churches.

She fled the nation of religion of peace to go enjoy some western chaos.

nduchucks:
My participation in any discussion on this thread is contingent on civility devoid of name calling.

May I suggest that you do not make presumptions about me, including references to alternate monikers or name calling including the using words like co-travellers, when you are in any dialogue with me?

If not, I'll be tempted to stop responding to you. Thanks

You can run away of you want to I won't hold you.
Provide the points I have not been able to match point for point as you inferred.
Give me facts and not some childish mind game that ends with a threat of running away. I am waiting if you can provide the points in question.

I don't support disruption of flow in a road contributed towards and used by members and non-members alike.
He could have used

nduchucks:
My post was triggered by the question you asked a forumite. You asked whether he/she is Christian. I thought that could be interpreted as a red herring in a debate where accusations of fraud and deceit constitute a major focus.

I hope you find my reply helpful.

There is nothing wrong with that question given the fact the accused is a pastor who bases his action on scriptures. Or are you the guy I asked in an alternate moniker? If not that question is perfectly OK. Plus none of your co-travellers have matched me with fact yet. Just plain emotional outburst.

frankman365:
You don't need any experience to know that you shouldn't marry without their consent - my humble opinion.

After God, next is your parents!

What of the parents are die hard Ogboni that you know have no positive plans for your future.

Goshen360:
Thank you, this to me is fair criticism and again I do appreciate the man's input to the community but my simple criticism is, if a greater percentage that are willing to attend the university or rent these housing can't do so, it's unfair to me .... diehard Oyedepo defendants can say all they want to say....

Was the schools and houses built to make it affordable to all?
Even Harvard or Notre Dame doesn't survive on the model you are rooting for. believe me. I an still waiting show me any system that takes token and make it into expensive service affordable to all. Not even govt that takes tax forcefully can do that. Not even Saudi Arabia govt or Japan.

Goshen360:
Young man, let me tell you something:

Faith is not stupidity and both don't walk side by side.

I think I finally agree with you on something. So why not tell us what faith is to you and how am I suppose to apply faith all through my give and reward cycle as a believer. As usual, I am waiting.

desiredhome:
I remember back in 2012, at one of the Church, the regional pastor was going from parish to parish, telling members how their GO promise the Oba of Ede land that if he gives them land he will build a university for them,
That the Oba has already given them over 200 hectares of land,
They gave every Church members piece of paper to contribute towards the building of that university at Ede, and that it's compulsory for the workers in the Church.
I was like, shey after contributing and the University is built, they will now put it 1million as tuition fee whereby I can not send my children to that same university?

Today they will tell you Holyspirit built the School, they are paying professors, Education is not cheap bla bla bla

So why collecting from the members when you know you careless about them? are there not orphans, widows, needy people in the workforce who were made compulsory to contribute?
I don't understand why they keep lying.

Maybe that was true for redeem ( rccg ) but for Winners, i can tell you the financial model isnt anything like these haters scream about on the social media and mainstream media.
I challenge the main devil's advocate on this thread to show me where a church has successfully run any school thay way but all i get in return is emotional outbursts and assumptions from these guys.

Harvard as a school, has an endowment fund that good citizens can decide to will their estates to and believe me, people give their life saving to Harvard but that doesn't mean Harvard will now consult such a list of givers towards their endowment to grant scholarship to some poor folks who may be related to one or two donors or givers. That doesn't also mean they will now reduce the standard/fees of Harvard in order to accommodate every potential giver in their admission list. Never. Not even a scholarship to a giver will make sense.

My understanding of giving is this, when I give I am suppose to give in faith and expect my reward from God and not from Oyedepo or Adeboye or Oyakhilome.
The word of God tells us in Hebrew that Abel was more justified in his giving and this obtained a more excellent report because he had faith. Hebrews 11:4.
If as a christian I give towards a project I accepted God has approved of my church I wouldn't go back to a GO or church head to claim I gave #10,000 and therefore they must make the school affordable to me. My reward is from God and I can't comprehend why any sane mind will give in faith and be doing what you and those you support on this thread are doing. I have heard both Oyedepo from the head quarters and my local residence pastor say countless times that if anyone thinks his or her contribution will affect the day to day running of the ministry they should stop giving it and see if the church stops running. So why are people with half info always getting emotional? Why?

nduchucks:
This thread is interesting . Some people are essentially alleging fraud and you are asking one of them about his/her religious belief. Please let's try to use point counter points with facts while excluding red herrings.

I'm enjoying the debate, but please keep it intellectual and objective.

If you have been reading comments then I hope you really comprehended them because i have been the only one trying to be factual here.
Is it gosghen360 that has been screaming "think, think think"? or the ones who cant answer a simple question you are calling factual?

Please quote the post with points and hoghlight these points let me see it.

When will occultists and ogboni start using blood tonic for saxrofice? OP must be high on carbon monoxide.

Goshen360:
I won't quote the whole post of generationz and my regular friend on this discussion, codetempler because that will be too much responding to each of you one by one and line by line.

However, I understand it's difficult to separate a die loyalist of you guys Oyedepo from if anyone criticize him fairly but some of don't know me like I said earlier, I have been part of the winners churches and mentioned names and also part of the administration of the badagry branch before moving to the United States. I have nothing against Oyedepo as a person I'm simply against his system of operations from my understanding of the word of God.

You can disagree ffrom your perspective and I disagree from my perspective. There is no such practice where monies are taken from millions of people and committed into project that are still not AFFORDABLE to vast majority of the people.

One person said tithe was taken for one year and does that make up good money to be enough....listen, who's talking about one year tithes being collected. You know in your heart that people have being paying Tithe into that system for years and not to talk of offering and Shiloh sacrifice are also seed sowing in case you forgot to mention that too.

If you guys can't see past your nose, we that does will sure speak up at every given time and I'm not afraid to criticize Oyedepo and these systems that are used under the non profit organization.

You are being delusional with your demands. Show us one church or ministry that takes token as tithes and then uses it to provide expensive service to all members.
If you know any poor person trying to get admitted to that school please tell them about the scholarship and stop the ignorance.

Goshen360:
I really hate to continue arguing with you because you're not catching the basis of my argument.... let me do this since you keep equating covenant university with other government high fee , let me ask you.....UNLIKE OYEDEPO....since you agreed the money comes from various sources including members tithe and offerings and Shiloh sacrifice etc..... who are the subsidized government institution COLLECTING TITHE AND OFFERING from to run or operate the institution?

Do you pay tax at all or have heard of tax before?

lordreed, Please explain yourself in full or I take it to be a diversionary tactic.

emmykk:
Kebbi state the only state in Nigeria I will like to visit this new year from delta state

You spoke my mind.

ikorodureporta:
Guy, he slumped & died in the church

Lol.

Seun:
Actual dry fasting for 21 days is suicide. 9 days without water will kill you. It would be irresponsible for any church to recommend an actual 21 day dry fast to its members.

However, it seems that the RCCG fast is not what it sounds like; it is more like the muslim fast which is broken every evening.

The economic cost of fasting is very high because it dulls your brain. It makes you less productive at work. Productivity difference between rich and poor countries.

You are gradually becoming a comedian oh. How can you say fasting kills productivity? it is hunger that does that and fasting may make you hungry but isn't about hunger. It goes well beyond that.
Read Isaiah 58:3-5. It isn't about endurance but suppressing the leisurely things of the flesh in order to sensitise you spirit man and draw closer to God.

InansBobo:
I don't understand this dry fast oo, someone should explain it to me.

As my pastor would say, you need God's leading to do a lengthy dry fasting without food and water. Let baby Christians among these people not go and kill themselves out of ignorance

What is fasting and what is the purpose? How should it be done.?

People out of carnal thinking pattern have made it a physical hunger endurance competition. Fasting goes with prayer and what is the point being so hungry that you can't pray with focus and fervency?

People don't think at all sha...

generationz:
Before you criticize a system make sure you make an effort to become a part of it and observe from within
You people will willingly take student loans , work several jobs etc just to get a degree from Yale , Harvard or some backwater university in the UK where they use the money from African students for their own students.

Stop acting like you have the best interest of the so called poor at heart , you know nothing about how that school is run and when someone who was a part of the system is trying to educate you, you scream nonsense.

Your federal government schools that are affordable for the poor are nothing to write home about . Despite the fact that these schools are funded from taxes generates from the poor an average government universitys merit list has the names of lecturers and politicians kids first before your own children will dream of it.
Despite funding from taxes and it being affordable for the poor we dilapidated structures , overcrowded classrooms and hostels, outdated lecture notes , lecturers who act like gods etc.

Despite being in a third world country that seems to be going backward cannanland and the entire ministry is one of the most structured I have seen in Nigeria.

There has never been power outage in cannanland since it was dedicated in 1999. It doesn't use phcn but internally generated gas power plants unlike your country that has been battling power issues since 1960.

How that church is run still baffles me sometimes, it is an obvious miracle.

It isn't run on taxes which are expected to be regular but on tithes.

You really think everyone pays tithes and offerings.

How many high income earners even attend the church.
Remember tithe is 10% of once a month . unlike many pastors I ha e never seen oyedepo raise seed offering and trust me I have been to many churches where pastors frustrate their members with sowing money for miracles and seed offerings .

Like I said earlier how that church is run without any hitch is a miracle to me. Despite massive looting , yes I said massive looting within the system by members of administration, pastors and those in charge of accounts that church still manages to stand.

Do you know that there was a system set up to give very poor members 50k and 20k (depending on your need ) to start a business of your choice.
Do you know that that initiative was frustrated by fraudulent practises of pastors within the system and many poor people who come back 10 times to collect money with many different stories.

What of the free bus rides provided for church members nko? greedy drivers , greedy pastors destroyed it.

Before you criticize a system be part of it first and see how its run

Before you criticize a man walk a mile in his shoes first and see how it pinches.

I have an assignment for you - as you have taken time out to be a freedom fighter and cry out for the poor I hope you also take out time and money to care for the poor people in your community. Unless you have no case

God bless you. The guy you are replying belongs to small and inconsequential group of radical, rebellious and ignorant believer who want to turn the church into MMM or thrift society (osusu) system.

He has forgotten that as a believer he is suppose to give with faith and expect his reward from God and not Oyedepo or Adeboye. He doesn't realize the the reason Abel had a more excellent sacrifice above Cain was faith (Hebrews 11:4). And that explains why he is always tracking what his inconsequential offering and seed is being used for on social media.

God bless you for that revealing post.

spongeisback:
Oyedepo the only "billionaire" without any prior business. Dude just opened a church now he's balling.

Bloody criminal!!!! Before you insult yourself, tell your "daddy" to go to the UK. The British indicted this man for diverting MILLIONS of pounds meant for charity, Thief!

If only Nigerians are not bloody corrupt and wicked this man and his kind would be cooling their heels in jail.

Ole!ole!ole!

I wanted to ask you some other question but I will ask if you are a believing Christian?

Do you believe on the Bible at all?

Goshen360:
All the big grammar you've been dropping since since, see how you EASILY MADE MY POINT since the argument back and forth....THIS IS A UNIVERSAL FACT AND TRUTH.... Oyedepo collects from the CHURCH MEMBERS ALL OVER THE BRANCH NETWORKS.... including remit all TITHE to headquarters and these are the sources of universities and housing estate found BUT HOW IS IT AVERAGE INDIVIDUALS OR EVEN ALL MEMBERS CANT AFFORD THESE UNIVERSITY OR WON'T BE ABLE TO AFFORD THESE HOUSING ....if they have been contributing or paying tithes into the ministry for years....if you don't get my angle I'm criticizing this practice from by this time, I conclude your are one of Oyedepo loyalist and I am not.

2. As for the handing over to his son, it's NOT A MATTER of if God says his son will take over or not....it's how things are being lined up IN OUR EYES AND THE SIGNS ARE THERE....It's also on record here on nairaland....I sincerely hope I can find the thread where Oyedepo has said when he dies, his son will take over.... that's when I left the church then.... again i was a member of winners at the badagry branch and the information I do know ....you will be amazed but I'm not spilling nothing out here.

Point of correction. He manages what the members entrust in him. has he ever threatened anyone for money? Never.

You keep on regurgitating your weak and redundant argument about all members not being able to afford the school. I asked you in return, can all citizens afford the federal universities of the govt they pay tax to also? Even as heavily subsidized as the schools are (30-50k of fees) many still can't afford them.
Another important question or factor you purposely fail to consider is " was the school established to meet the schooling needs of every member's children and ward? " Never. It wasn't. So why should the church try to accommodate all members children simultaneously?

I have challenged you severally. show me any church that does that.
Show me any church that receives less than N100k in tithes and offering from a particular family all through the year then flips it around into a N600k - N850k of school fee subsidy for 2 or 3 children from that same family? Please show me where this your almighty MMM formula is working. I am waiting for you. come at me with facts or just take it easy.

Mynd44:
This is why they don't call him to debates

He has been a radical for long and doesn't know how to be diplomatic.

CilicMarin:
May God Protect Our Troops....


Boko Haram Kill 20 Nigerian Troops= 700Likes and 500Shares 10 Pages.

Nigerian Forces Kill 100 Boko Haram= 10 Likes 12 Shares 2 Pages..

SMH!

Arms havested!

Are you a soldier?
I wouldn't mind having those dead bodies a manure for as vegetable farm.

ASUU is just a mob of greedy lecturers out to negotiate a bigger share of the national cake.

Goshen360:
Who then is subsiding winner universities and where money coming from to expand to the next university and now the housing estate? You can keep on defending fraud....it doesn't make no difference, everyone knows what's going on and btw, if Oyedepo dies and hand over all the businesses to his son and we speak out against him, you will still be here defending him.

See you.
If Oyedepo goes home to be with the good Lord and hands over to his son, it is a question of whether God has ordained his son to take over.
Even if God chooses a former Fulani herdsman as the new leader it is up to the followers to watch out for the signs of of a true apostle in him.

As for the funding of the school, the money comes from various source including private individuals.

.

Goshen360:
I'm NEVER scared to answer your question (s) whichever way. Now, to answer your question, the same way I'm jumping winners now and I had critized other same Churches who collect money from all kinds of members AND DO NOT PAY TAXES BECAUSE THE CHURCH IS " NON PROFIT" organization BUT THE MONEY COLLECTED FROM NON PROFIT ORGANIZATION are used to build these instructions that AREN'T STILL AFFORDABLE TO MOST MEMBERS....I'm jumping on winners now as I have jumped other churches too in the past and this is wickedness in our society

2. I'm not in anyway disputing the scholarships as I'm aware of that. I was onced a winners member and I can give you inner details about winners and their scams. I'm talking about reasonable affordability to both the new housing as I hope and the non affordable universities.

3. I'm not running those universities but here's my submission....if the so called subsidies are still not AFFORDABLE...the truth is there's nothing subsized. And btw, if PROFIT are not made, how do you expand more on businesses if Oyedepo claims they don't profit off the first university to build another one....THINK MAN, THINK AND STOP YOUR MENTAL SLAVERY.

Pathetic. You are speculating. How did they get money to build the first university then? Maybe from faith academy! But if that was true, then did they get the money to build the first faith academy? You have to keep speculating to justify that.

You are speculating man. give us facts.

If you claim CU is making profit then explain why UI that gets as high as 500,000 per student per year of subsidy from FG isn't having a trillion Naira reserves or profit stashed somewhere?

Just like the average internet warrior, you are always speculating that the schools makes profit and all you arguments are based on these speculations.
From what I can glean from you here, you have no idea what it takes to run a university.
Professors earn average of N12m/annum, then there is power, maintenance, and many others. You are assuming the 30-40k they pay in public schools is what they run the schools with and therefore erroneously conclude that public universities charging 600-850k are making profit.

Go and do a thorough research, the FG subsidizes the average public uni graduate by hundreds of thousands yearly.
UI spends over Half a million on grads from biological science depts.
Professor Okebukola attested to this himself. Stop assuming what you don't know bros.
Read up the current university strike in South Africa and be enlightened. CU and LU don't make any profits.

Gos gave us a conscience and that was what made Adam hide in the garden after his fall.