₦airaland Forum

WizzyVine:
Wrong interpretation of scripture. Very very misleading. Now, judge from your own statements, "Michael at that time had no power over Satan." If Michael is the same Jesus whom Isaiah called "The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace...." How then can the creator not have power over his creature?

Michael as a warrior angel has no authority to do anything until he is commanded. Since he wasn't ordered to deal with Satan at that point in time, he can't do anything. In Revelation 12, he was on a full fledged war as the commander of the army.

So can you tell me who commanded Michael in Revelation 12 to fight Satan? As in can you provide Scriptural reference where God said “Go and fight Satan and remove him from heaven” ?
So where and how did Michael get his authority? Point to the scriptures oo leave too much talk
Let's not base these things on assumptions

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://media./images/14cd04951335766288c672c30e186f98/tenor.gif[/img]
What the blooming heck?

Now you better reproduce here verbatim where MuttleyLaff, did misapplication of Scriptures and typed or said: "‘spirit’[ruach] at Ecclesiastes 12:7 meant God's holy spirit"

In the failure of doing that, in the absence of providing the word for word quote, be prepared to retract your slander to eat your words

Go ahead... Lie, let them see who you truly are
I'm not jobless else I'd have dug it out by now

Maximus69:
You guys are unbelievers but when we tell you, you'll flair up as if with all sorts of abusive speeches and curses!

Jesus spoke of PEACE amongst his own followers! John 14:27

So if you don't know what 1Thessalonians 5:3 is all about just ask and we'll teach you, PEACE can never be in the world under Satan's control but their will be PEACE in the midst of worshipers belonging to the PRINCE of PEACE! Isaiah 9:7

You need not mind MuttleyLaff and his misapplication of Scriptures.
The same person who said the ‘spirit’[ruach] at Ecclesiastes 12:7 meant God's holy spirit
What do you think he cannot do again

WizzyVine:
The entire Book of Revelation was centered around Jesus and His coming kingdom with all the events that are bound to happen in-between. All the appearances of Jesus were recorded. So, if Jesus was the One fighting with His angels as you quoted, then it should read "...Jesus fought with His angels."

Note that, Michael is a Commander. He is a warrior angel who has other warring angels under him, and they all go at the bidding of the Lord Jesus. However, Michael has never in all of the Bible sent any angel on an errand, to deliver a message for Him as Jesus signified in Revelation 22.

In Daniel 10:21, we were told who Michael is. He's the guardian angel for the nation of Israel. He fights at God's command against Israel's enemies. He is not the only begotten Son of God, he's not the Word of God, he's not the one who was, who is and who is to come. Michael is not "the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world."

Satan (the dragon) indeed owns his own angels, and his own demons, since he's the god of this world. And he's the one all darkness worship. Michael only has angels just as Buratai has soldiers.

Your last sentence further establishes that since Michael does not own angels, he is not the Lord of lords and King of kings that Jesus is. Michael who owns no angel cannot be Creator of the universe as Jesus Christ "By whom all things were made, and there was not anything made without Him that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."

Hmmmm

Let me just chip in a little something.

Jude 9

“But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.””

Can you see the words I bolded? Michael at that time didn't have the power to do anything to Satan. He simply said that Jehovah (their Father) will see that justice is done—as per he didn't take laws into his own hands.

But we later see at Revelation 12:7-9

“And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled[by Michael] , the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”


Now all of a sudden, Michael has the power/authority to wage war against Satan and the rebellious angels causing nuisance and EVEN TO OUST HIM OUT OF HEAVEN PERMANENTLY (See John 12:31 and hear what Jesus said about this himself)

When did this transition in power take place? The Bible answers that right after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, he could boldly say

“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” — Matthew 28:18

Yes, after his resurrection to heaven, he was exalted to a higher position but not above his Father(Philippians 2:9). That's why Michael(Jesus) later had the authority to permanently delete Satan out from the holy spiritual heavens.

solite3:
yes Jehovah himself is the rightful owner

Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Jehovah himself is the offspring,
Zechariah recorded what will take place in the future and that is, Jehovah himself will reign as king in Jerusalem.





Jesus will reign forever
Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jehovah God the Creator is now offspring of who again?
I'll take it that you just deliberately want to act dense now since you can't dispute any of the things I said above.

If it's to open mouth and talk waaa waaa without sense, that one you dey.
Abeg comot from my face jare, Mr solite3.

Maximus69:
Walahi Talahi DappaD will scatter their brains with higher learning!
So because they're arrogantly proving stubborn, you expect their brains to comprehend all these shey?
People we need to spoon-feed with light spiritual meals like milk and cheese Bro DappaD wants to feed them with solid food!
They have not passed kindergarten you want to carry them to JSS, OK o!

I just had to
They're just stubborn brats

solite3:
Before Israelites began to have human king, was it not Jehovah that was their king?
Jehovah temporarily step aside as king when Israel desired a human king.

1 Samuel 8:4-7 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Note Jehovah was the king of Israel but they rejected him because they wanted a human king and from that time on they began to have human kings.
Jehovah remains the true king of Israel, others are temporary.

Hold on, Mr solite3 let's use common sense here.

Zedekiah was the last king of Jehovah's earthly kingdom, right?
So after the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and the tenure of the king of Judah was cut short, what did Jehovah say would happen?

Ezekiel 21:26-27

“This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Remove the turban, and take off the crown.
This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one, and bring low the high one.
A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I[Jehovah] will make it. And it will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it
[the crown/his Kingdom] to him. ’”


Did Jehovah God say he will assume Kingship immediately? No, he said that another king will occupy his throne and who is this one who has the legal right?

Luke 1:32-33 answers for us

“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him[Jesus] the throne of David his father , and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom .””

God had earlier told his prophets—David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Micah—men who never saw each other face to face and lived in different time periods—that an offspring from the line of David would come up to be king in the Kingdom set out by Jehovah in the heavens(Daniel 2:44)

See 2Samuel 7:12, Psalm 2:2, 139:11, Isaiah 9:6,7, 11:1-10, Jeremiah 23:5, 30:9, Ezekiel 34:23,24, 37:24,25, Daniel 7:13-14, Hosea 3:5, Amos 9:11, Micah 5:2-6


How long is Jesus to rule?
Revelation 20:1-5 answers that for us. Jesus Christ along with the spiritual Israel—the 144,000 firstfruits bought from mankind are to rule with Jesus and occupy leadership for 1000years. During that time, he will fully dispense the benefits of the ransom to obedient mankind and gradually raise them to perfection. That's why that verse 5 said “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.”
That is, the rest of those who have died throughout history would have resurrected prior to the end of the 1000years and then at the end of the millennium, they would finally be perfect in all respects—death being a thing of the past(Isaiah 25:8, 1Corinthians 15:26, Revelation 21:1-4). The rebellious “sea” of humans and the wicked would have been eliminated then and some sent to the ‘lake of fire’ which signifies total annihilation/destruction(Psalms 37:10, 104:35, Proverbs 2:22, Matthew 25:41,46, 2Peter 2:9,3:7, Revelation 21:8 )

But the Bible does reveal one thing though—and that's from the inspired writings of Paul. After the 1000years are ended, Jesus[Michael, only begotten Son of God] would hand over the Kingdom to his God and Father, Jehovah God.
1Corinthians 15:24-28
“Next, the end, when he[Jesus] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.  For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone ”

When the Scriptures says the Kingdom would last forever, it means that it won't be passed over to any other person except to the One who gave it to Jesus in the first place—Jehovah God! (Daniel 2:44, Matthew 28:18)

MuttleyLaff:
Fully educated trinitarian, know that God is not Trinity just and/or alone, but He is trinity and more.

He in fact and truth, is infinity because He is Infinite

Lol I take that to be your own definition of the trinity god then?

bobbyjfc:
pls my fellow brethren n sisters, let's not argue with ds JW fellows.

Nobody wishes to argue with you Mr bobbyjfc

i bliv there is God n his son Jesus and his holy spirit. God is in heaven, Jesus is seated with his T his right hand and d holy spirit of God is right here on earth because Jesus promised to send d Holy spirit to us wen he ascended to heaven.

OK OK OK

and i know Jesus is God John 1:1...but all i know dt He is God in whom my sins are forgive

But you earlier said you weren't talking about trinity . See what you said

they bliv everyone except them is talking abt Trinity. no one mentioned trinity here no quoted bible verses to back them up.

I'm sorry Mr bobbyjfc, but acknowledging that Jesus is the Almighty God alone automatically qualifies you to be a trinitarian no matter how you look at it.

Csonice1:
if I agree with you; the whole of Hebrews1 will witness against me; it will always throw me off balance; therefore, I stick with God's Word.

Jesus: “...for this I was SENT” Luke 4:43
Was Jesus sent by Jehovah God to the earth? Or are Luke 4:43 and John 8:18 not in your Bible?

Csonice1:
They are ministering spirits sent forth to those who are heirs to salvation: they have the divine nature, they Excell in strength, they harken to God's word, they praise him etc:
but Jesus is not an angel.

Hebrews chapter1 was inspired to warn the church of anyone saying that Christ is an angel. of all the dimensions that Christ can be ; angel is not one of them. pls, get that straight.

Angels simply mean “messenger”.
Are you saying Jesus wasn't God's messenger? —Luke 4:43, John 6:44, 8:18

Csonice1:
They are ministering spirits sent forth to those who are heirs to salvation: they have the divine nature, they Excell in strength, they harken to God's word, they praise him etc:
but Jesus is not an angel.

Hebrews chapter1 was inspired to warn the church of anyone saying that Christ is an angel. of all the dimensions that Christ can be ; angel is not one of them. get that straight.

Okay that's now excuse for you to equate him to God because you're too lazy to study the Bible?

Well, for your information Jesus is the archangel Michael, one of the foremost princes of the heavenly angelic armies. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men—Michael is said to also fill this role (Daniel 12:1, then check 1Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 9:24)

Csonice1:
[Jesus is not an angel] and angels are not equal to God
Hebrews 1.

OK I've heard you.

Are the angels in God's form—that is, being spirits and of divine nature or not? —Psalms 103:20, 104:4

Csonice1:
I've added scriptures to my last post. see to that.

Don't worry I saw it.

Csonice1:


Philippians 2:5&6
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

So the other angels aren't in God's form as well?—being of divine nature and in spirit form?

Csonice1:
They're not one person but two persons United by the Spirit: the Son proceeding from the Father.
Three persons in one? ( I can't remember having said "one person": three persons in one.


I will use a human explanation to describe a foreshadow of it: While Abraham was paying tithe to Melchizedek, Levi was in him; and Levi paid tithe in Abraham.

The Son (Jesus) was in the Father: He proceeded out of the Father and was with the Father in the beginning and He remained God. (John1:1) Because they have one Spirit: the Holy Spirit.

The Son was in the Father?
Omoh trinitarians no go finish me
And I guess this is your own trinity definition right?
Well let me surprise you, as long as you equate the Son(Jesus/Michael) to the Father(Jehovah God), you are a TRINITARIAN Mr Csonice1!

Csonice1:
I thought I answered that.

That's the point:
you're two persons(members) United in one body through agreement and love: provided, you have the same Spirit.

Adam and Eve were one flesh: How much more they that are one Spirit?

Very good, we're getting somewhere.

So when Jesus said ‘I and the Father are one’ (John 10:30) does it mean they're the same person?
Or can we fully understand what Jesus meant if we read John 17:11,21-23?

Ezekiel36vs28:
I have been following you guys arguments and positions or understanding of God and I will tell you And that Dappa guy that you have to turn back from that sect you belong to(JW)and desist from the ignorance you are dishing out as knowledge.Yahoshua (Jesus Christ)is Jehovah who Moses worship and others.Jesus Christ(Yehoshua)is the almighty God(Rev 1:.
Now You are right about the doctrine of trinity not being right but disputing Jesus Christ(Yehoshua)as not being Yahweh or jehovah is foolishness from your sect and ignorance of the highest order even with all those scriptures you are quoting without revelation knowledge to back up your position.

Mr Ezekiel36vs28 you have been heard.

Talmabout ‘You are right about the doctrine of trinity not being right’
I'm sorry but the words highlighted are just another definition altogether about the trinity god. Just that some other trinitarians have their own definitions while you have yours.

bloodofthelamb:
I will not oblige you. We are talking whether Jesus is a created being or not let us stick to it. Don't shift the focus. If God created His wisdom as portrayed in Proverb 8 that only means that there was a time He was unwise and foolish.

You people always have a habit of twisting the whole thing.
I thought I earlier debunked this your claim? Or aren't you intelligent enough to understand?

Csonice1:
I removed doctrinal barriers and read God's word and this is what I found out:
1.God is one. with three persons proceeding forth. for the word was with God and the word was God: Also the Lord is The Spirit.
Three persons in one God: The Father, the Word and The Spirit.

2.The Son was in the Father as an integral dimension of Him & He proceeded forth to do God's will. The Spirit is the union between the two (the power of God).

3. The Spirit of the Lord is : the Spirit of God: The Spirit of Christ: and the Lord is the Spirit.

4. The Word took flesh; as the image of the invisible God. For our redemption and after he has spoiled principalities and power he sat at the right hand of the Father; the same position of Authority with Him; the glory He had with Him before the World began.

5.They are inseparable; in works; and in glory

If it be so that s man (one person) shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife( another person) and the two shall be one flesh; even though they are two, they are one flesh. How much more they that are one Spirit?

I believe in one God: Father, Son and Spirit in unity [one body, One Spirit] through love and agreement. it's scriptural beyond argument: I dropped a few scriptural witnesses across this thread coming from my personal Bible study with God.

Okay good. That's why I asked this question:


I, DappaD am one in agreement with Maximus69, DOES this mean we're the same person?—John 17:21-23{verse 22 especially}

Csonice1:
[you forgot to add] ..."after having known the truth."






The Father,son and Spirit are inseparable.

Hmm that means among trinitarians, there's truth and falsehood about the trinity god?

Csonice1:
the level of understanding exhibited by some of us is really funny.

No, you are not the same person, but YES you can be members of the same body. At a time (even humanly speaking) the son was in the father. Levi paid tithe in Abraham.

Now, The Father and son[Jesus] are one: Jesus came forth from the father ; both are United by the Spirit[ the wonderful part is that The Spirit of the Father is also the Spirit of Christ].

if(when) I lay hands on the sick and he gets healed, The person was healed by The Father, in the Name of Jesus (ie Jesus did it) by the power of the Spirit.
They are inseparable.
For more Read: Matthew 28:19

Do you subscribe to the doctrine of trinity?
Or are you monotheistic in belief?

I know why I'm asking all these.

bloodofthelamb:
You compare canal things with spiritual things. And by the way do you agree that Jesus is the wisdom of God as portrayed in the Bible?

Biko leave ‘carnal’ and ‘spiritual’ things alone for now—because in my eyes you don't measure up to anything ‘spiritual’ .

I, DappaD am one in agreement with Maximus69, does this mean we're the same person?—John 17:21-23{verse 22 especially}

Just answer my question with YES or NO sir!

Maximus69:
They're trying to hide their shame even when they can't speak with one mind on their TRINITY Dogheads, so each time Satan remember how united in spirit JWs are globally the next thing that comes straight into his mind is "What could be done about this indomitable Governing Body?"

That's why whenever you speak of the oneness which Satan can't produce in the midst of all his rebellious gaggles, each of them becomes furious about the GB instead of asking why are they so efficient?

I'm sure if we leave DrLiveLogic and bloodofthelamb alone on one thread, they'll argue and argue vehemently about who their Trinity god is.
But on this occasion, it seems they've set differences aside and want to prove JWs wrong by all means
Hmmmm, it reminds me about that broad gate/road Jesus talked about at Matthew 7:13,14.
Only God's true servants(JWs) will understand.

bloodofthelamb:
Jesus is one[in agreement] with God.

OK
I, DappaD am one in agreement with Maximus69(John 17:21-23), does this mean we're the same person?
Before you answer, take a look at that Scripture above.

bloodofthelamb:
Oshe! I didn't know I was chatting with one the GB, pls forgive my manners. Regarding Revelation 3:14, the word translated into "beginning" can also be referred to as "origin." In other words Jesus is the beginning(origin) of God's creation. He began it all that is why He is called "the beginning and the end".

Wait...
Let me get this straight—you believe Jesus is the same as God, yes?

bloodofthelamb:
So in your own understanding now Jesus was talking about the GB in Matthew 24:25. wheew! They should have been 12 in number why 8?

Why not you call your own church/organization where you take instruction from na?
So that you can explain to us what Jesus was talking about at Matthew 24:45?


The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses make up the composite “faithful and discreet slave” class at Matthew 24:45 who Jesus said will dispense spiritual food to the rest of the sheepfold of Jehovah's Witnesses—they themselves also being fellow slaves and not our leaders.
The number dwindles between 7 and 8, which is the number with which the first century Christians appointed men to fill that “governing body” role—Acts 6:3

bloodofthelamb:
Thanks for the scammer tag but you can keep it anyway. Now back to topic, you guys should always know that context is king. The word translated firstborn is the Greek word "prototokos" which can mean different things eg preeminence.

David was made firstborn in Psalm 89:27-- I will also appoint him my firstborn, most exalted of the kings of the earth. David was not the firstborn of his Father in fact, he was the youngest of them all. So my dear the firstborn in this context doesn't mean that Jesus was created, it rather means that Jesus has preeminence over all creation because he created them. Colossians 1:16 should give you a better understanding.

I've heard you. Look at who wants to explain context to me. I'll school you in that field.


But does Revelation 3:14 also agree with what you're saying? Or does that verse also explain that Jesus is indeed the first being to be created by God?

bloodofthelamb:
You guys( all Jehovah witness zombie) specialise on using emoji in all their write up with aim of deceiving

Call us zombie o, robot o, it will not change the fact that 8.7million men and women across the globe are all united in the same line of thought towards achieving one goal–declaring the good news of God's Kingdom —Matthew 24:14, 2Corinthians 13:11, Philippians 2:2

Now I ask you again, do you agree with all the beliefs of DrLiveLogic? Or both of you have differing beliefs?

bloodofthelamb:
They're foolish, irrational and blind. There only line of defense is to claim that the one speaking or is portrayed speaking isn't wisdom which is fraudulent because from the beginning of Proverb 8 it is clear who is speaking.

Can you speak on behalf of the beliefs/tenets of DrLiveLogic? Or does he have his own definition of your trinity god?


What's up with the other thread—seems you ran away

bloodofthelamb:
All those scriptures you put up there didn't prove that God created Jesus Christ. It's highly impossible that God created Jesus through Jesus because the same Colossians 1:16 says, For by(through) Him(Jesus) all(all means all with no exception) things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth visible and invisible (nothing was exempted here) whether thrones or dominion or principalities or power. All(again "all" is being reemphasized) things were created through Him and for Him.

It is either you guys have comprehension issues or you guys are playing the devils advocate. If God really created Jesus at the beginning as you people believe then, it will be He created Him through Him.

You are a SCAMMER Mr bloodofthelamb sir!
How convenient of you to skip the verse 15 of that chapter which calls Jesus the “firstborn of all creation.”

Is the Almighty God Jehovah a creation?
Please don't be stupid

bloodofthelamb:
So you are saying there was a time in the existence of your Jehovah that he was foolish and unwise until he produce and created wisdom for himself.

Noo noo don't try to twist everything to make JWs look bad biko.
The above is what you and your trinity cohorts have been insinuating ever since the start of this thread—except you're not bright enough to realise this.

Jehovah's Witnesses from their in-depth study of the Bible, together with other Scriptures such as John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-17 and Revelation 3:14, have come to understand that the writer of Proverbs 8 had somebody in mind when he was inspired by Jehovah to put his thoughts in writing—that person being the first creature that God created—Jesus Christ(archangel Michael).
We know that Jehovah God has always existed from eternity and He has always been wise (Psalm 93:2, 104:24)—that's why we can't classify the wisdom at Proverbs 8 to be an abstract form of wisdom—rather that chapter is referring to a person by the name of Jesus Christ(the archangel Michael)


It is you and your trinity friends who've been saying that God hasn't always been wise. Don't try to twist it.