₦airaland Forum

franklytrue:
What is that?

Do you believe Jesus Christ is a separate person from his heavenly Father?

franklytrue:
He was not lying and can never lie. It is understanding of His words we need.

And so when he also said no man hath seen the Father (God) and also said at another time that whoever has seen him has seen the Father, was he lying?

(No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. - John 1:18)

"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." - John 6:46

"If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" - John 14:7, 9

So what is your understanding of these verses?

There were others too even in the old testament who saw God and lived. (Exodus 24:10-11, 1 King 22:19, Job 42:5)

Understanding of the God's word is very important
Proverbs 4:7 'Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.'

Now back to Elijah whose body was changed because mortal flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. We also know that there are spiritual heavens too but when Jesus, who was seen physically, ate food and was touched also in his body after his resurrection, ascended up into heaven, how was that possible with just mortal flesh and blood? Do you limit the power of Almighty God?

So tell us where did Elijah go to and Enoch too?

Before I address any of your statements, I'd like to know if you're a Trinitarian.

franklytrue:
You have not answered the questions above. You are digressing.

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces." - 2 Kings 2:11-12

So what did the bible say or mean there? Elijah was taken into Heaven. Enoch too was taken away (Gen 5:24). You want to explain the bible away as JW's usually do? How can you witness for a God you don't even know (only head knowledge of) or have had any experience of?

Job 42:5-6 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." - 2 Corinthians 3:6

The words the Lord Jesus speak, they are spirit and they are life (John 6:63). And Jesus said that He is coming quickly. He is coming very soon. (Rev. ch 3:11, ch 22:12-13, ch 22:20). Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
If you keep taking away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away your part out of the book of life (Rev. 22:18-19). Beware! God is not a man that He should lie.

When Jesus said no man has ascended to heaven before him, was he lying? (John 3:13)
This is something to ponder on!

So are you telling me Elijah went to heaven with flesh and blood?
Are you aware that there are physical Heavens, known to us today as the Sky?

BOSSkesh:
In grammatical sense "Tongues" means Languages
In Religious text "Tongues" means a language gift given to the faithful on the day of pentecost to spread further the message of the gospel.
Now let us look at the first case instance of the "tongue" speaking.
Acts ch2:3-4.TGNB It says "Then they saw what looked like Tongues of fire which spread out and touched each person there. They were filled with the holy spirit and began to talk in other languages, as the spirit enabled them to speak.

Now my problem is with people speaking nonsense in the name of tongues
I do not have this gift I know. But then it's funny to see people speaking >brakakasaaszutagsjsggwfrravsjkegbveurgh< and all other kind of nonsense in the name of speaking in tongues. And in the end we have more people blaspheming Gods name instead of praising Him
And if you try to protest they come with words like
"May God have mercy on you"
"You don't know things of the spirit"
"You must be possessed"
"Tongues are not for carnally minded people"
"You are not a child of God"
" You can't understand what we speak because you're not a child of God" etc

The gift of the holy spirit is not forced, it's not just another joke the gifts of tongues is earned , it is merited. Only by being prayerful, bold, and pure of heart can we as Christian's be able to receive his gift of tongues to propagate his message to the end of the world (acts 1:4-8,John 20:20-23, luke 24:44-49, mark 16:14-18, Matt 28:16-20)

Now let us look at the reaction of the people in the Bible.
In Acts 2:5-13
The people all over them heard his own unique indigenous languages each group of people gathered there that day heard his own mother tongue. Imagine the surprised look on the faces of the traders from the east and west and north and south when the disciples spoke each of their native mother tongue. You can see in the text above that the people around clearly understood the disciples and the languages they spoke
A classic Nigerian when confronted will tell you that you have to acquire divine wisdom to hear the words they speak , please how can I translate grurumashathabalazokotobravosibalothi lol even the holy spirit is tired

God is not stupid to give the gifts of tongues. He gives it to few people who are ready to propagate his message

Do not believe the people who stand upon the alter speak rebrokontoribahoshikakakakaktattejjbvhrhehujindaboskibahose this people are blasphemous destroying the fine and wonderful gift of tongues

Instead let us pray to God to give us His gift of divine tongues to propagate his message

Well yes you're correct, the gift of tongues was to enable the new Jew proselytes speak foreign languages they had not learned – Acts 2:6-11
And the Bible did say those gifts of holy spirit won't be effective in our day (1Corinthians 13:8 )
The so-called men of god and other fake Christians today have brainwashed many into thinking that speaking balderdash is the same thing as speaking in tongues.
This further reveals them to be the “workers of lawlessness” Jesus talked about. (Matthew 7:21-23)

OkCornel:
Nah, I get you clearly. Unless you are telling us John saw a motor vehicle in his vision...and he wrote it as "horse and carriage" which bears no semblance whatsoever to a motor vehicle today.

Please I'm also awaiting your point on the human slave part. Are there countries today that are major importers/exporters in human slaves?

I no dey argue o, I just dey try clarify stuffs here

Seems you're getting confused.
I said ‘Take an example’
I didn't say ‘Liken it’

Na you use your mouth talk the above

OkCornel:
Of course, if John saw an automobile vehicle in his visions, he would clearly not call that "HORSE & CARRIAGE"....c'mon

And besides, which country today deals with human slaves in international trade as a major exporter or importer?

I think you missed the whole point I was making.

OkCornel:
Who exports/import horses and carriages and human slaves in this 21st century? Sounds like old wine (1st to 19th century stuff) in a new wine skin (21st century)

Well the visions were given to the apostle John in the way he could easily express them – those were things familiar to apostle John in his day.

Look at verse 9 of that same chapter 18, you'll see there written ‘kings of the earth’. In John's day, kings were known to rule empires and kingdoms. But when we come to understand it in our own day, we can see it's referring to the political system of the world today that comprises of presidents and dictators.


Take an example, if John had seen an automobile vehicle in the visions, how do you expect him to express it in words? Knowing he hasn't seen such before?

OkCornel:
In Apostle John’s vision of the fall of “Great Babylon” he listed out the following items in high demand from which traders will profit greatly. It doesn’t take rocket science to know maritime trade is lucrative...however something seems odd in the list of items spelt out.

Revelation 18 v 11-13;

11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore

12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble;

13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.




The other items I can consider reasonable to an extent.... but horses and carriages and human slaves in this 21st century? Seems very odd



Intelligent answers to this line of query please. Thanks.

What exactly is your question?

Emusan:
Thanks for that, but why can't you tell me the proper English I should have used? Mr Teacher!

Anyway, that should be auto-correct "find"



You can proof any bias source wrong by providing your own reliable source.



One of your brother had asked the same or similar question and here is my reply again

I actually don't have time for this

I'll make it short and quick.
Shortly after the death of the apostles, the congregation of Christ became largely overchoked by apostates and false teachers (2Peter 2:1, Jude 4)
From the second century, then arose men who the scriptures described as false teachers. They intentionally twisted and added to the scriptures so it would fit with their Trinity doctrine. Such scriptures would include the misinterpretation of John 1:1, 1Timothy 3:16, 1John 5:7 and others I can't mention now.
The fact that there's a fuss over this actually does show that there was an alteration somewhere and the only ones to do such were the false Christians at that time.

Emusan:
Your head is so correct for asking this question!

But let me turn it around, does Jesus divinity and essence in Nature like Father wasn't a heated debate in the early Church that can responsible for the text to be ommited?

WHAT!! Write well I can't understand you.

I fail to see how your previous comment supports your comma doctrine.

Emusan:
@bold is where I'm more concerned, so the people I cited their statements, did I say they're the evidence I want to provide for the COMMA

They're TRUSTED scholars

You're just jumping like kangaroo, calm down and see the evidence rolling in bit by bit.

The funny thing is, your brother provided Isaac Newton statement who is an Anglican A PROTESTANT as a reliable support but here you are saying the testimony of PROTESTANT or CATHOLIC shouldn't be taken serious.

Hypocrisy has started.

Like I said, this statement is still the focal point here

From Calvin's comment we can see a critical point raised, as "the Greek copies do not agree".

What is Calvin point really about?

We will found out next!

Common sense should be applied here.
Do you think there'd be this much fuss about said scripture if it had not been altered one way or another?

Emusan:
@bold is where I'm more concerned, so the people I cited their statements, did I say they're the evidence I want to provide for the COMMA

They're TRUSTED scholars

You're just jumping like kangaroo, calm down and see the evidence rolling in bit by bit.

The funny thing is, your brother provided Isaac Newton statement who is an Anglican A PROTESTANT as a reliable support but here you are saying the testimony of PROTESTANT or CATHOLIC shouldn't be taken serious.

Hypocrisy has started.

Like I said, this statement is still the focal point here

From Calvin's comment we can see a critical point raised, as "the Greek copies do not agree".

What is Calvin point really about?

We will found out next!

First, use proper English
Second, you're quoting sources that are biased. Was it only Jehovah's Witnesses who disputed the falsehood added to 1John 5:7?

Emusan:
Before I begin dive into the three points usually raise by the critics against the COMMA listed above, let me first quote the statement of three noble scholars who were considered as great in the Reformation Era.

John Gill (1697 – 1771 AD): commenting on 1 John 5:7 says the Comma is found "in the Complutensian edition, the compilers of which made use of various copies; and out of sixteen ancient copies of Robert Stephens', nine of them had it" (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible).

John Calvin: commenting on 1 John 5:7, said, "The whole of this verse has been by some omitted. Jerome thinks that this has happened through design rather than through mistake, and that indeed only on the part of the Latins. But as even the Greek copies do not agree, I dare not assert any thing on the subject." (Calvin's Commentaries). Apparently in Calvin's time there were more Greek manuscripts with the Comma so as to give rise to a disagreement among the Greek copies. 

Francis Cheynell, the president of St. John's College, Oxford from 1648 to 1650: commented that the COMMA is "to be found in copies of great antiquity and best credit."

These testimonies by trusted Reformation era scholars should be given weight because in the centuries following their deaths Europe erupted into political and religious turmoil, resulting in the loss of manuscripts.

From Calvin's comment we can see a critical point raised, as "the Greek copies do not agree".

What is Calvin point really about?

We will found out next!

During the Catholic-Reformation era from the 1500's you mean?
I thought we were addressing sources BEFORE the fourth century C.E(300–400C.E) ??
Why quoting sources from people who have no regard for Bible truth but only out for their personal interests?
Do you believe the Catholics and Protestants throughout the Dark Ages were Christians or blood thirsty politicians ? If they're not Christians, why should their words be trusted?

AntiChristian:
Na you sabi o! Mark 16:9-20 exist in some versions of the Bible. Whether it is reliable or not na you sabi!

Can you explain the chronology as it happened?

And why would I do that when your sole aim is to ridicule?

Zzor:
hmm even at the detriment of someone's life,anyways I don't wish to argue about religion anymore,may God lead us all right

Jehovah God is the source of life (Psalm 36:9, Revelation 4:11) and he specifically told his people in the Bible not to consume blood (Genesis 9:4, Leviticus 17:11,12, Acts 15:28,29)

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if they lose their lives for the sake of obeying Bible principles, they will be resurrected. See Matthew 16:25, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15

I believe you're aware of Abraham's experience when God tested him right?

Humanoid01:
Yes, 100%.

Can you support your belief with Scriptures?

Humanoid01:
That's with respect to the physical world (under the sun).

Do you think there's a spiritual world humans go when they die?

Humanoid01:
All right.

Now my next question: If they cease to exist, what do they stand to lose in the end if they'll be conscious of nothing? What's the point asking people to stay from sin when there won't be a sense of regret in the end?

Well, since life is a gift, they lose that gift to enjoy it.
Actually, it's not only evildoers who remain unconscious when they die, the Bible says that “the dead[righteous and unrighteous] know nothing at all” – Ecclesiastes 9:5,6

Kobojunkie:
Do you know what a prophesy is? It is a message from God to His people (Deuteronomy 18, I believe).

Jesus was not a prophet - He was not really a messenger of God since He was God's own word.

Kobojunkie : Do you know what a prophesy is? It is a message from God to His people (Deuteronomy 18, I believe).

DappaD : OK


Kobojunkie : Jesus was not a prophet

DappaD : Funny how you quote the book of Deuteronomy and say Jesus isn't the prophet Moses talked about.
Please read Deuteronomy 18:15 and compare with Luke 7:16, John 1:45, 5:46, 6:14, 7:40, Acts 3:22.

Kobojunkie : He was not really a messenger of God

DappaD : Really? So why was it convenient for Jesus to say his Father sent him to the earth? Luke 4:43,John 6:38, 8:18


Kobojunkie : since He was God's own word

DappaD : Yes Jesus is called the Word of God because he is God's Chief Spokesman (John 1:1, 7:16,17, 12:49,Hebrew 1:1-2)

Exmilitant:
He was married and had children.

Where did you hear that?

Maximus69:
We do share moments together during weekends!
Why do you ask?

Nothing really
Just an observation I wouldn't like to talk about in the open

Maximus69:
Hmmmmmmmm, you said it all!
Thanks my brother!

Bro Max weldone
Have you by any chance used Tatime’s moniker before?

AntiChristian:
By Austin Cline

Christians point to Jesus’ resurrection as one of the things which distinguish Christianity from all other religions. After all, the founders of other religions (like Muhammad salallahu 'alayhi wa salam and Buddha) are all dead; Jesus conquered death. Or did he? For something so important and central to the message, theology, and very nature of Christianity, it’s curious that the gospel authors would all have such radically different stories about what happened.

Jesus’ First Resurrection Appearance
The resurrection of someone dead is an important event, but the Gospels don’t seem to know where and when Jesus first appeared.
Mark 16:14-15 - Jesus appears to Mary Magdalena, but it’s not clear where (in older endings of Mark, he didn’t appear at all)
Matthew 28:8-9 - Jesus first appears near his tomb
Luke 24:13-15 - Jesus first appears near Emmaus, several miles from Jerusalem
John 20:13-14 - Jesus first appears at his tomb

Who Sees Jesus First?
Mark - Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena then later to “the eleven”
Matthew - Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena, then to the other Mary, and finally to ”the eleven”
Luke - Jesus appears first to “two,” then to Simon, then to “the eleven”
John - Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas

Women’s Reactions to the Empty Tomb
The gospels agree that the empty tomb was found by women (though not which women), but what did the women do?
Mark 16:8 - The women were amazed and afraid, so they kept quiet
Matthew 28:6-8 - The women ran away “with great joy.”
Luke 24:9-12 - The women left the tomb and told the disciples
John 20:1-2 - Mary told the disciples that the body had been stolen

Jesus’ Behavior After His Resurrection
If someone rises from the dead, his actions should be significant, but the gospels don’t agree on how Jesus first behaved
Mark 16:14-15 - Jesus commissions “the eleven” to preach the gospel
Matthew 28:9 - Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and another Mary hold his feet
John 20:17 - Jesus forbids Mary to touch him because he hasn’t ascended to heaven yet, but a week later he lets Thomas touch him anyway

Doubting Jesus’ Resurrection
If Jesus rose from the dead, how did his disciples take the news?
Mark 16:11, Luke 24:11 - Everyone doubts and is scared or both at first, but eventually they go along with it
Matthew 28:16 - Some doubt, but most believe
John 20:24-28 - Everyone believes but Thomas, whose doubts are eliminated when he gets physical proof

Jesus Ascends to Heaven
It wasn’t enough that Jesus rises from the dead; he also had to ascend to heaven. But where, when, and how did this happen?
Mark 16:14-19 - Jesus ascends while he and his disciples are seated at a table in or near Jerusalem
Matthew 28:16-20 - Jesus’ ascension isn’t mentioned at all, but Matthew ends at a mountain in Galilee
Luke 24:50-51- Jesus ascends outside, after dinner, and at Bethany and on the same day as the resurrection
John - Nothing about Jesus’ ascension is mentioned
Acts 1:9-12 - Jesus ascends at least 40 days after his resurrection, at Mt. Olivet.

https://www.learnreligions.com/jesus-resurrection-and-ascension-contradictions-250145

Codetemplar, Sagenaija

Strictly Biblical!

Hmm

First of, Mark 16:9-20 does not exist in any reliable Bible translation.
Secondly, if you know nothing about the chronology of Christ's resurrection and ascension, why not keep shut and get all the details before hammering out your ignorance?

I think you're the confused one here. Jesus appeared to a group of women and his disciples okay. But which one is this ‘Jesus first appeared’ phrase you're using?

sonofElElyon:
Go and read my earlier posts please.. I answered your questions there.. people have left JW when they didn't agree anymore with your teachings.. or is it your argument that no one has ever left since you were established your argument that all JWs are in agreement should be amended to "all JWs who are currently members are in agreement".. same applies to all churches.. those who disagree leave.. people have left JW and will still leave.. same with other churches.. that's the truth..

OK since you like to rigmarole, keep off my mention til you address my questions.

sonofElElyon:
I don't know why you don't even read properly what I post before attacking me..

human beings disagree, even in the early church. I said repeatedly that the disagreement I am talking about is not one involving foundational doctrine.. Paul and Peter disagreed.. to disagree is to dissent.. Paul and Barnabas disagreed.. human beings will always disagree and I gave reasons earlier.. I made it clear from the beginning that I wasn't referring to disagreements based on foundational doctrine but you won't read well before attacking me..

God bless you..

i

OK I've heard you but did Paul and Peter remain in the same line of thought, yes or no? – 1Corinthians 1:10

Maximus69:
Satan has really blinded them!

He's trying to justify the lawlessness in their midst, despite claiming Christians they can't even uphold the same code of conduct.

Deeperlife will build his place of worship in the same area where Redeem and MFM did, they'll competing for customers. Yet they're claiming they're all working for the same Jesus but when someone commits any offence in one place he or she can easily run to another place under the same Jesus! Matthew 7:23

The road wey all these churchgoers dey pass wide sha –Matthew 7:13

Maximus69:
As for Russell being the founder of JW Organization, i've told you that is a lie Sir!

It's like saying John the baptist is the founder of Christianity because Jesus continued from where John stopped!

But you're 100% correct as to the believe that you and i aren't worshiping the same God!

What i meant is anyone coming on this thread is setting matters straight with JWs, it's either you agree to worship our God or you maintain your own form of worship!

It's OK to as you believe we are not worshipers of your own God because our own God won't accept the worship of people who aren't having the same line of thought!

Don't mind Mr sonofElElyon
He's hinging on the correction Paul gave to Peter as ‘disagreements’ and ‘dissension’

Peter who was willing to adjust took that correction that he could even refer to Paul as his “beloved brother” long after that time. (2Corinthians 13:11, 2Peter 3:15)

So we can see that Paul and Peter still maintained the same line of thought even after the little dispute – 1Corinthians 1:10, Ephesians 4:3, Philippians 2:2

sonofElElyon:
you are going round and round in circles.. I don't have time for this..

stick with your position if you want. it's your choice. I have expressed my views..

but as a parting shot.. I leave you with Ezekiel 1:26-28 which describes a strange awesome Divine being who clearly is not God the Father and certainly not Jesus..

God bless you

OK.

sonofElElyon:
you de-personified Him and compared Him to a loud speaker.. you objectified Him

OK

sonofElElyon:
thank you.. it simply is an absurdity to claim that the finger of God is a person.. even a kindergarten kid knows that! so such an interpretation immediately creates an absurdity!!!

not so with the Holy Spirit.. it is very much reasonable and scripturally consistent to hold that the Holy Spirit is a person.. you are the ones desperate to reduce/compare a "Spirit" to loud speaker, finger
etc..

As for the finger I guess you'll have to go and argue with Luke na
It wasn't me who wrote the gospel of Luke.
Go and check whether Luke 11:20 is in your Bible! And then compare it with Matthew 12:28

sonofElElyon:
thank you.. it simply is an absurdity to claim that the finger of God is a person.. even a kindergarten kid knows that! so such an interpretation immediately creates an absurdity!!!

not so with the Holy Spirit.. it is very much reasonable and scripturally consistent to hold that the Holy Spirit is a person.. you are the ones desperate to reduce a Spirit to loud speaker , finger etc..

I didn't say holy spirit is a loudspeaker sir. I used an illustration there.
Acts 13:2, Paul and Barnabas received their assignment directly from God by means of holy spirit. So I tried using an illustration on that occasion only, namely, that someone in Lagos can transmit a message to another person in Abuja by using either a phone or computer – inanimate things.

sonofElElyon:
you are absolutely ridiculous..

I have been trying to enlighten so many of you here and I can't possibly respond to all of you mentioning me at the same time.. I don't live on nairaland! i have said all that needs to be said . if you check my responses to other JWs you'll see the answer to "janosky"'s post somewhere there..God bless you

I didn't ask you your place of habitation sir
Until you explain how God's finger became a person you have no argument here.