₦airaland Forum

sonmvayina:
In his book 1 of his book titled "against the galileans" emperor Julian has this to say

"9] It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. Though it has in it nothing divine, by making full use of that part of the soul which loves fable and is childish and foolish, it has induced men to believe that the monstrous tale is truth."

Oh so you can believe and even quote the words of a man–this emperor Julian who you're not sure existed abi?

OK!

So what made you so sure that the OT isn't full of these “monstrous tales” as well?
If it's part of these “tales”, why believe in them since you also have no solid proof of those events which unfolded in ancient Israel?

Blabbermouth:
In the book of Exodus, the LORD God himself said to Moses "I have made thee a God to Pharaoh"... He also said " And Aaron will be your spokesman unto the people and he shall be in-stead of a mouth, and you shall be to him in-stead of God"...
That was an order of prophethood that no prophet, No! Not even Joshua operated or ministered as. Only Moses and the Messiah.

Not surprising but very essential, the First (I.e) Moses was the mediator for the first/old covenant. The second I.e. Christ will be/already was and is the mediator of the new covenant.
This is what was meant when he said "...Like unto me;..."
Do well to Unlearn and Relearn, the prophet being prophesied of was not Joshua but the Ha Maschiach.

The bolded is just one of the things I should say has put sonmvayina in utter confusion. He claims that Deuteronomy 18:15 was talking about Joshua but God had already appointed Joshua to take the place of Moses even before that prophecy was made! – Numbers 27:18-20

illicit:
I am human, I don't believe in religion , just God

Do you believe that problems can be addressed through individualism or collectivism?

If every individual should say what you said above, then each one would have his own rules he lives by and wouldn't give a damn about the next person. But this will only prolong the issue further because everything we do affects the next person directly or indirectly.

illicit:
in essence are u saying govt is unnecessary?

The ruling governments today are controlled by an evil being, Satan the Devil(John 12:31, 14:30, 1John 5:19, Revelation 12:9) and so it isn't approved by God but he has allowed them to continue for a limited time(Romans 13:1-2) to maintain law and order for the meantime until when He sends his Son, Jesus to rid the earth of the wicked governments(Revelation 16:14-16, 17:14) and ensue in a better government, God's Kingdom! (Daniel 2:44, Matthew 6:9,10)

illicit:
man has to solve man's problem, at least we know ourselves

Jeremiah 10:23 explains that humans are blind, figuratively speaking, so they can never rule themselves without calamity.
The earlier one is aware of this, the better for him.

haekymbahd:
The thing is not all that is written in the Bible are actually false but have been tampered either by addition or subtraction. Imagine if the same Holy Spirit inspired all the writers of Gospel won't they write the same thing. John 1:1 can only be found in book of John, not Mathew, Luke and mark. Did Jesus tell him that alone. The spirit of Truth brought the Quran tell us truth and falsehood of the previous scriptures.

Sorry, John 1:1-3 is the paraphrased/shortened version of Proverbs 8:22-31 and Colossians 1:15-16 showing that Jesus was created by Jehovah God in the beginning.

And the gospel accounts were all inspired by holy spirit, yes, but the writers wrote from the own point of view. There is no way that two persons will relate an event exactly the same way or manner.

So if you say the whole Scriptures was tampered with, can you please let go of Isaiah 42 since it was tampered with as well?

haekymbahd:
The truth is Jesus also confirmed the coming of the spirit of truth(Gabriel) who will guide man to all truth and will not speak of himself.

The Holy Spirit Christians believe Jesus was talking about was already in existence at the time cos the disciples we're already casting out demons and performing miracles during the time of Jesus how is that possible without present of holy spirit. Jesus said if he doesn't leave the comforter won't come. Now that the Holy Spirit is God how is it not speaking of himself.

We're clearly digressing from the topic of discourse.
What you're trying to get at isn't clear to me at all. Maybe you should restructure your sentences so it could have meaning.

However, the Bible doesn't agree with the bolded words. Holy spirit is the impersonal active force Jehovah God uses to carry out his will/purpose and therefore is not a person.

sagenaija:
This is exactly what i pointed out and the OP has not been able to respond to.
Why claim that a book is corrupted and still run to that book to validate something. It just does not make sense. Yet one finds them doing that over and over again. It's like saying "Let me use your corrupted book to prove that my religion is the right one!" And it doesn't even occur to them that that is a faulty reasoning. How many of them will agree for us to use 'weak' or 'fabricated' hadiths to even prove a point to them in Islam.
Yet that is exactly what they are doing here and they think it is exciting doing it.

Imagine OP quoting the same Isaiah 42 that he tagged along with the rest of the Scriptures as being ‘altered’ or ‘changed’. Just because he has refused to see reason.

haekymbahd:
The thing is it is very obvious. Jesus had nothing to do with Kedar and sela.

The same manner your Mohammed/Kedar/Allah gods have nothing to do with the prophecies laid out in the Bible. Get my drift?

haekymbahd:
The thing it is very obvious

OK!
So if the scribes or Christians ‘changed’ it to fit their Jesus like you said, why are you still quoting from it?

haekymbahd:
You Christians changed all prophecies in the Old Testament to be only for Jesus .

That's what your brother Lululuku69 claimed as well.
But even if you say the OT was ‘altered’ , that won't stop you from quoting from the said ‘altered’ Scriptures to prove your faulty point.
You people are fond of this cherry picking attitude no be today

haekymbahd:
Was it Jesus who wrote book of mathew

The book of Matthew was written by a faithful apostle of Jesus – Matthew, a former tax collector. Being an apostle of Jesus, he closely examined the Jesus' way of life and style of teachings. He knew that he was the Son of Jehovah God that was sent to the earth! Thus, he recorded Peter's words at Matthew 16:16

Thus, he was inspired by God's holy spirit to put down records/deeds of Jesus into writing. (2Timothy 3:16, 2Peter 1:20,21)

haekymbahd:
Read that verse Isaiah 42 and tell what it meant by kedar and Sela. Was it Jesus who wrote book of mathew

You yourself don't even know what is meant by those scriptures!
Mind you, the book of Isaiah was written by one man some 2700years ago and it wasn't written in isolation. It is meant to carry one message/theme throughout.
That you're now mentioning a location Kedar is of no relevance to anybody. But I see that's what your religious leaders have hinged on so as to further confuse you but you'll never see that they were wrong all along since they can't explain in great detail like I did.

haekymbahd:
Literal or real father I don't care...... well Isaiah 42 who was it talking about hope you know the Jews don't believe it is Jesus even though you both read the same scriptures. Refute my claim (where and who is kedar and Sela is the place in Israel refute this claim of mine).

That's why I asked you to compare Isaiah 42 with Matthew 12:15-21 and let's see where your Mohammed fits in!

@the bolded, we don't need the Jews to confirm for us that Jesus is the Son of God who was sent to the earth. There was enough resounding evidence from the very scriptures the Jews read in their day that pointed to Jesus being the Messiah! (Daniel 9:24-26, Isaiah 61:1-2 compare with Luke 4:16-21)
But they rejected him because he didn't subscribe to their faulty line of thought – they were expecting a person to deliver them from the hands of the Roman soldiers and Jesus wasn't the political activist for the job. Jesus himself maintained that God's Kingdom is no part of this satanic world! John 18:36
That's why he didn't try to overturn the ruling governments at that time. John 6:15

This makes sense because when the last Davidic king was cut off, God said he would establish his Kingdom in heaven to rule over earth so that there wouldn't be any need for human rulership! Isaiah 9:6,7, 11:1-10, Daniel 2:44, 7:13,14, Ezekiel 21:27, Amos 9:11

haekymbahd:
Are you saying Jesus was born also with original sin.

No! He didn't have a literal human father that would pass sin over to him. Mary didn't conceive Jesus through the sperm of a man.
When holy spirit came upon Mary, the son she bore was free from sin and holy.

Joseph a descendant of David was Jesus' adoptive father so that gave Jesus the legal right to the throne of David his forefather.

QED

haekymbahd:
Are you sure Jesus was descendant of Isaac time I checked Jesus was son of Mary because he was conceived of the pure spirit no earthly father. Joseph was a descendant of Jacob but he was no father to Jesus.

Jesus had both the legal and natural descent of Isaac!
His adoptive father Joseph was from the line of Isaac, giving Jesus the legal right to the throne of David his forefather which in essence is God's throne.
His mother Mary was also from the line of Isaac, meaning that Jesus also had the natural descent from Isaac, since she bore him through natural means.

I still fail to see how your god Muhammad is involved in any of this.

haekymbahd:
From my understanding you said Muhammad can't be the prophet because he is not an Israelite.
Also that the prophecy has not been fulfilled yet that we are still expecting a prophet to come from isreal
Am I right?

You quoted Deu 18 vs 15
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you [a]a prophet (Prophet) from the midst of your brethren like me [Moses]; to him you shall listen.(B)

Has there ever been a prophet before in Israel like Moses?
Also the word brethren [/b]is the plural form of brother (Israelites and Ishmaelites) of which I don't think the ishmaelite has ever had a prophet like Moses?

[b]Deuces 23 Vs 7
7You shall not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother [Esau's descendant]. You shall not abhor an Egyptian, because you were a stranger and temporary resident in his land.

If edomite can be brothers of Israelites then ishmaelites are perfect brethren(brothers)

It is also clear that Israel has also never had a prophet like Moses since his death

Deu 34 Vs 10
10And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

11[None equal to him] in all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt--to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land,.

So who is this prophet to come?

Isaiah 42 also prophecy about coming of muhammad
1 BEHOLD MY [a]Servant, Whom I uphold, My elect in Whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice and right and reveal truth to the nations.(A)
2 He will not cry or shout aloud or cause His voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed He will not break, and a dimly burning wick He will not quench; He will bring forth justice in truth.(B)

4 He will not fail or become weak or be crushed and discouraged till He has established justice in the earth; and the islands and coastal regions shall wait hopefully for Him and expect His direction and law.(C)

5 Thus says God the Lord--He Who created the heavens and stretched them forth, He Who spread abroad the earth and that which comes out of it, He Who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:

6 I the Lord have called You for a righteous purpose and in righteousness; I will take You by the hand and will keep You; I will give You for a covenant to the people [Israel], for a light to the nations [Gentiles],

7 To open the eyes of the blind, to bring out prisoners from the dungeon, and those who sit in darkness from the prison.(D)

8 I am the Lord; that is My name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images.

9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.

10 Sing to the Lord a new song, and His praise from the end of the earth! You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it, the islands and coastal regions and the inhabitants of them [sing a song such as has never been heard in the heathen world]!

11 Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar inhabits. Let the inhabitants of the rock [Sela or Petra] sing; let them shout from the tops of the mountains!

Where is the location of Kedar and Sela (Arab) so definitely about coming of Muhammad.
Also kedar was one of Ishmael sons which makes Muhammad a descendant.

Sela a mountain in medinah

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of isreal while Muhammad to the world?
Muhammad brought a law while Jesus didn't?

Do you think a prophet is still going to come from Israel because I don't think so and if not it would mean God failed to keep his promise?


Same way the Jews are expecting the messiah when he had come already.

Muslims are just the most confused set of zealots I've encountered especially on nairaland
Just like one of your confused brothers Lululuku69, he claims all those passages in the OT actually points to it been fulfilled by Ishmael/Mohammed/Allah or whatever the name of your god is.
In spite of the fact that Jehovah God blessed Ishmael, He further said that he would establish his COVENANT with Isaac (Genesis 17:19-21)


It's also funny how you quote Deuteronomy 18:15 and Isaiah 42:1-10 when in fact ALL those prophecies were fulfilled/some to be fulfilled concerning Jesus(who was a descendant of Isaac) some hundreds of years later and also in the future.
Compare Deuteronomy 18:15 with the following Scriptures in the NT Luke 7:16, John 6:14, 7:40, Acts 3:22
And compare Isaiah 42 with Matthew 12:15-21

When you're done comparing, let us know where your god Muhammad comes into the picture.

franklytrue:
All these bible claims are false? That which you have not taken the time to search out as a wise 'Berean' of the book of Acts 17. Full well the scriptures speak of such people as you.

2 Timothy 3:5-9 'Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.'

I have nothing much to discuss with you since you deny the greatness and power of the God and His only begotten Son, whom you claim to be his witness. False witnesses you all are with the scriptures you have twisted and erroneously edited as your bible because you know not the God you call upon, only head knowledge of. For half truth and selected, is falsehood and deception (1 Timothy 4:1-2).

And my identity now is, Christ in me the hope of glory. Pray that it will be yours also, and that you perish not when you take the Word of God lightly and focus only on what you want and not the whole counsel of God (Revelation 22:10-20).

Lol I care less about who you think I am
Can you provide a rebuttal for what I've said concerning Elijah's account or you'll be like the usual churchgoer and say ‘All I know is that Elijah went to heaven I don't want to talk about it’ ?

franklytrue:
Concerning resurrection: sown a natural body...raised a spiritual body.
That is for bodies that were buried in the ground and become decayed/disintegrated.

Note, Christ's body was not buried inside the soil but kept in a sepulchre. It did not decay like the normal dead bodies. It stayed for less than three full days first before it was resurrected; that same body and not another. His body was quickened (made alive) by the Spirit of God.

Remember Jesus said he has the power to lay down his life and to take it up again. He also told the Jews to destroy this temple (referring to his body) and he will raise it up again. That he has done because he himself, as part of the Godhead (one with the Father), is the resurrection and the life. (John 2:19-22, ch 10:17-18, ch 11:25)

Christ is much greater than you have ever known. He is not just a teacher or prophet. He is the Word of God made flesh. And that same Word is God (John ch 1:1-14, 1 Tim 3:16); the Word that made the worlds (Heb ch 1:2, ch 11:3).
He, who was before Abraham, took upon himself the form of a man and was made in the likeness of flesh and became obedient unto death even the death of the cross. He is now exalted. A body that did not result through the normal process of procreation was prepared for him, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father (Philippians 2: 6-11, Heb. 10:5, Isaiah 9:6).

Now unto him, God, Who was manifest in the flesh, has all authority in heaven and on earth being given, and He is the heir of all things (John 5:21-27, Matt 28:18, Col 1:16-19, 1 Pet. 3:22, Rev. 5:13, ch 22:12-13, 1 Cor. 1:24, Heb. 1:2)

He, the living Word of God, who is ordained to be the judge of the living and the dead, has spoken and said that He is coming back again. His words are spirit and they are life. In His Father's house are many mansion. He will come again very soon to take His pure bride home for the marriage supper of the Lamb and other things follow after that unto eternity (Acts 10: 42, ch 1:11, ch 17:3, Romans 2:16, ch 14:10, 2 Tim. 4:1, Rev. 19:11, John 6: 63, ch 14:1-3, Rev. 19:9)

That's why I first asked you if you're a Trinitarian! Seems you don't know your identity.

All your claims are actually false, since you can't point to a single Scripture that said Jesus resurrected with his physical body.

Enough of that now, I'd like to see how you pan out the account of Elijah now.

@OP
Observe the photos below and know today that the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures is trustworthy.

bingbagbo:
Can you see what the JWs are trying to hide in their devilish new world translation?

Express your point without all these biased sentiment please.
You laid down a scripture from two different Bible translations.
Now explain what you're getting at, you can't, because your senses have been blurred so you can't OPEN your mind to accept an explanation
You then vehemently rushed to claim that the NWT is faulty.
Can I show you something though?
Could you open your Bible to 1John 4:4 let's see what we'll find there

NKJV
1John 4:4

“You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.”

How is somebody meant to understand the italicized words? Is the Almighty God an abstract phenomena that lives in someone? Or is He a Person who resides in heaven? (Deuteronomy 26:15, 1King 8:43, Psalm 11:4)
The KJV Bible has a record for misguiding readers so they don't get the full sense of what they're reading.

Now look at a more comprehensive translation of that verse.

NWT 2013
1John 4:4

“You originate with God, little children, and you have conquered them, because the one[Jehovah God] who is in union with you is greater than the one who is in union with the world”

You can see here that God is clearly described as being in ‘union’ with his loyal people on earth. Which is exactly what Jesus prayed for concerning his disciples on earth(John 17:21-23)

So instead of rushing to make misguided claims, I think you should locate the translators of the KJV and NKJV Bibles and blame them for the gaps in your knowledge.

franklytrue:
1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God He [Jesus] was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit , seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Focusing on the words in bold, what does that say concerning the resurrection of Jesus?

franklytrue:
I would have to start checking chronology but Ahab and Jezebel were reigning at that time in one of the kingdoms of Isreal

Well yes that's correct, it's Bible chronology that will enable us to understand why Elijah wasn't taken up to heaven.
Elijah lived through the reigns of King Ahab and King Ahaziah(King Ahab's son). He saw the death of these two kings and the installment of King Jehoram(King Ahab's son/King Ahaziah's brother). This is for the northern kingdom of Israel. (about 940 – 920B.C.E)

The appointment of Elisha as a prophet by Elijah was around the year 919B.C.E, that is, shortly after the death of King Ahaziah and installment of King Jehoram as king of northern Israel.
Shortly after that, Elijah was taken up “to the heavens in a windstorm” . — 2Kings 2:1,11.
But here is where it becomes tricky, this doesn't mean that Elijah was taken up to the spiritual heavens.
The Bible makes it clear that there are different types of ‘Heavens’.
1. The dwelling place of Jehovah God and his army of angelic creatures, that is in the invisible spirit realm. — Deuteronomy 26:15, 1Kings 8:43, Psalm 11:4
2. The expanse above the earth, that which we can call the firmament or sky – Genesis 1:8

So all Scriptural evidence show that Elijah was carried by the windstorm into the physical heavens(see Number 2 above) to another location on earth for a continued prophetic assignment.

How do we know this is true?

Well, after some number of years(for about a period of 6years after the windstorm episode), in the year 913B.C.E, when King Jehoram(King Jehoshaphat's son) became king in the southern kingdom of Judah, Elijah was still alive and active as a prophet. King Jehoram of Judah had done bad things in Jehovah's eyes, so Elijah who was still alive at that time wrote him a letter showing Jehovah's disapproval and judgment, which was fulfilled immediately. – 2Chronicles 21:12-15


I advise you read carefully and digest before making any comments.


NOTE:

Israel and Judah are two separate kingdoms.
Jehoram, son of Ahab and Jehoram, son of Jehoshaphat are two different people.

franklytrue:
So why is so hard for you to understand that God can dematerialise bodies too and take them to heaven. Is it impossible for Him?

Lol. We are following a pattern here.
Can you open your Bible and check 1Corinthians 15:44, 1Timothy 3:16 and 1Peter 3:18, let's see the body Jesus resurrected with.

franklytrue:
Say on

Let's make this an interactive discussion.
First of all, who was the king of northern Israel at the time Elijah was a prophet? And in whose reign did he cease being a prophet for northern Israel?

franklytrue:
Spirit body that ate food? One that the disciples could see and touch, even Thomas?
So where did the physical body go? And that of Elijah and Enoch?

We are coming to that.
Are angels spirit bodies or not?
If you believe they are, you can see at Genesis 18:1-8 that angels who materialised into human bodies actually did eat food prepared by Abraham. Look at verse 8 especially.

franklytrue:
You would focus on one and leave the other? Half truth is a lie. Or does your JW book not touch on that? The literal becomes figurative when it does not suit Russell's false teaching
The problem is that your organisation have translated the scriptures falsely and given you a false version. May God help you all.

Why not leave Russel and organization out of this, so we can face the issue at hand?
Are you ready to know that Elijah didn't go up to heaven or not?

franklytrue:
So where did they go to? Where are their bodies? And most importantly, don't skip this: what about Jesus who ascended into heaven with a resurrected body? Was that not true or was it too hard for God to do?

Agreed, there's nothing impossible for Jehovah God to do. But He has standards he sets himself and his subjects so he doesn't go above or below that standard.

The highlighted though, caught my attention. Jesus was resurrected with a spirit body, not a physical body. He ascended into heaven with a spirit body. (1Corinthians 15:42-44, 1Timothy 3:16, 1Peter 3:18)

franklytrue:
Yes. And Enoch too, if you say he did not because the scriptures said God took him; with Jesus also who ascended into heaven with his resurrected physical body, if you think it was not so.

I'll like to focus on the account of Elijah for now, that of Enoch is another topic on its own. But the Bible does explain that both of them didn't go to heaven in concordance with Jesus' words at John 3:13

Maximus69:
Just ask them Where is Adam now?

Abi oo
Let's see whether they know more than God

franklytrue:
I believe in the only true God, the living God, who fills the heavens and the earth, whose throne is in heaven and the earth is His footstool.
I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of the spirits of all flesh; the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who sent His only begotten Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Okay good
Do you want to know the reasons why Elijah didn't go up to the spiritual heavens? As supported by the Bible of course.

Maximus69:
These guys are far behind the scheme, so what you're saying will lead to unnecessary arguments.
The Bible says "Elijah was taken up TO HEAVEN in a chariot of fire" any Churchgoer reading that will continue to hammer on the phrase TAKEN UP TO HEAVEN.
I think that's why the teaching tools are arranged in a way that the student will have gotten a glimpse of what the next lesson will focus on!

I'll like for him to see that Elijah didn't go to the spiritual heavens though.
Every other thing will be on hold