₦airaland Forum

Mr. 3 Doors - No need to congratulate me, that degree was obtained more than a decade ago.

I have read the stories in the links you provided. Please do take the time to study again my earlier post. But in fairness to you, i must state that i missed out one important point.

I see all the references to the Banks and Other Financial Institutions Act and the CBN Act made by Sanusi and i am not impressed by those references at all. The reasons are very simple:

1. Under the Nigerian Judicial System, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land, and where any other law is inconsistent with the Constitution, then it becomes void to the extent of its inconsistency. In this instance though, i do not really see a contradiction in the laws, but we need to be aware that constitutional provisions come first.

2. The laws he referred to actually empower him to give loans as a lender or last resort. However there are many laws that give powers to government officials to expend monies - that does not mean that those monies need not be appropriated first! His powers are to be excercised after appropriation by the Parliament, not before. I pointed out to you that this is a scary precedent, because whereas our National Budget is about N3 Trillion, Sanusi has already printed and disbursed a sum that is almost 20% of that! And he is set to do more. Where will the madness end? We need to interprete the laws more circumspectly.

I also failed to mention to you that there is actually within the law provision for a "Contingency Fund" which can be used to deal with situations like this with the approval of the National Assembly. Sanusi did not toe that path.

The unilateral printing and disbursement of public funds to private enterprises is a very very dangerous precedent.

Regarding the insults, that which is immature is immature, and i make bold to repeat that regarding Sanusi. My problem with you was the suggestion that i was high on some narcotic on account of my reverse perception of his actions. Haba now?

Kunle why are you always bandying this website about! Its interesting though!

Definitely he's extra-terrestial.

Dami it, if we claim to be spiritual beings, then we are all extra-terrestial too!

Nezan - Its a theoretical question, so we dont need to prove anything.

Is it impossible to address theoretical questions?

@ Chic2 love-vendor - We happen to be a serious minded lot who know each other and post with each other in mind. If History and Archaelogy do not interest you, please just let us be ok?

@ Krayola - this is truly tremendous stuff. There are many many archaelogical finds that validate bible traditions and accounts. The Bible is definitely a largely credible book. However as Krayola stated, there are also bits that will never be verified and probably belong in the realm of faith.

Since he mentioned the Garden of Eden, i would merely like to introduce my personal perspective on that: that garden was not an earthly one, and the events described therein not earthly events. What do you think?

Yes, so please lets return to the topic:

Cardinal Question: If there are extra-terrestial beings, do they need to accept Jesus inorder to be saved as well?

If not, then why should local aliens (non-christian ethnicities e.g chinese, indians, aborigenes) have to accept Jesus?

3doorsdown:
@Deep Sight

Your own doesnt even make any sense, I tried soooo hard to no avail to make sense of your immature unsubstantiated ramblings. Methinks you're using substances that perhaps you should stay away from. Come back after your obvious hang-over lets see if you have something to discuss, but please stay off those substances cos "a mind is a terrible thing to waste".

Mr 3 Doors -

Unnecessary insults are hardly a becoming response to an issue you do not understand.

Let me School you a little.

I happen to be a legal practitioner.

There are two cardinal aspects of this mess that the CBN Governor got disastrously wrong. You see, when laws, regulations and procedures are laid down, the purpose is to avert anarchy. If we continue to act with disregard for regulations, we will continue to be a disjointed and directionless society. That forms the plank for the emergence of a failed state.

The two critical bits that Sanusi got wrong: Regulatory Discretion & Procedure and Approprition of Public Funds.

If you are familiar with the Fundamentals of Regulatory Oversight in any industry, you will be aware that the cardinal function of the Regulator is to guarantee a healthy industry and in so doing, the Regulator has various tools of intervention. The tools are to be excercised progressively in such a manner that correction of anomalies is effected with minimal disruption to the system. The ultimate sanctions are only reserved for irreversible situations and even at that ONLY after the application of intermediary measures which have failed.

Sanusi did not apply any intermediary measures whatsoever before wielding the big stick and he failed to note the likely ripple effects of loss of local and international confidence and run on deposits that attend such public shows of regulatory might.

It is therefore clear that as a Regulator he acted hastily, and without discretion, which is scandalous considering that this is a post he has held for less than two months. Clear measures availed him in taking gradual steps to correct the anomalies.

Furthermore a Regulator must be impartial - and in this he has manifestly failed by implicitly giving the other banks more time to tidy up their books while dragging the first lot into the mud.

The Second major point is Appropriation of Public funds.

Under the Constitution of Nigeria ALL FUNDS - HOWEVER SOURCED, PRODUCED OR DERIVED, accrue FIRST, AND AUTOMATICALLY TO THE CONSOLIDATED FEDERATION ACCOUNT, AND NO FUNDS MAY BE WITHDRWAN THEREFROM WITHOUT APPROPRIATION FOR SUCH PURPOSE BY THE PARLIAMENT (NATIONAL ASSEMBLY).

Accordingly, once monies are printed (which is at all events a questionable approach to creating wealth) such monies accrue first to the Federation Account and must be appropriated before being touched at all.

Sanusi made two infantile arguments in his attempt to evade this. He stated that it was not an expenditure but a loan. This is irrelevant because the Constitution does not make a distinction. It states that ALL monies must be appropriated before being withdrawn. Thus it does not matter what you are withdrawing the money for: it must be appropriated before being withdrawn. Secondly he stated that the money was not from the Federation Account. What a laugh - the law states that ALL monies should go to that account!

His action sets a very dangerous precedent: In future the CBN Governor may print trillions of naira and disburse as he pleases since in his argument, its a loan. So perhaps he can print 100 trillion naira and give out as loans without the proper process of legislative approval? Also, if the other banks he is still auditing are found to need help, what will he do? Go back to his back yard and print more billions?

Aside from the illegality pointed out above, as an economist he should be aware that such reckless printing of monies is a key cause of inflationary trends within the economy.

Recall that both the US and UK effected similar bail-outs last year at the height of the recession. It may interest you to know that in both societies the actions were carried out by the Central Banks through Acts of Parliament.

So you see, my dear brother - we cannot carry on with our scattered, gra-gra approach to doing things just any how in this country.

I hope you get it now. In future i strongly advise that you address issues instead of spewing needless insults cos i dare say we are not on this forum for yabbis, but to communicate and learn.

On top of everything you now show that you cannot grasp metaphors.

i said before the guy has nothing to say really

mazaje:
If you can demonstrate to me that what you believ in is true and not some empty platitude then I will believe in it. . I believe in science. . because scientist have been able to demonstrate that some of their assertions are not empty platitudes. . .

He believes in Science he says!

O dear, maybe Scientists created the world!

Maybe Scientists can explain the mechanics of even the smallest living mystery in this world.

Such as why new born mammals immediately know, while blind, the location of their mother's breasts. Or How Migratory birds born in Soth America find their way to Europe to meet parents they have never seen before. Or how Sea Turtle babies crack out of their shells on the beaches, and instantly head to the sea.

It may take you many years, Mazaje, to learn a bit of wisdom

Nigerians are so silly. We hail anything that appears "action" oriented. James Bond?

Sanusi's actions were not only rash and stupid, but they will also have disastrous effects on the banking industry.

As a Regulator, he is doing great harm to the Nigerian Banking Sector, and has shown shocking immaturity and ignorance.

The 420 Billion Cop-Out is the most blatant illegality in the history of Banking in Nigeria. Printing money and then injecting such public funds into private enterprises, without a legislative imprimatur.

Dismissing them all is quite different from stating that one is an atheist.

I do not subscribe to religion myself, but that does not necessarily translate into atheism?

Dont worry, we will patiently wait till Great Mazaje, the only human being endowed with the ability to eventually discover THE TRUTH, leads us to it.

All hail prophet Mazaje

mazaje:
When did I tell you that was what I believe in? When did I tell you that? . .I do not know and that is my position. . I do not sunscribe in any of the various ridiculous hypothesis we have around which I know are all false. . . The fact that you choose to subscribe to one amongst the many lies, myths, and hypothesis that we have around is your own business. . .

Oh dear, such cheap escapism!

You do not know the truth, and yet you brand ALL the beliefs of EVERYBODY ELSE in the world as lies.

Dont worry, eventually when you find whatever is the real cause of existence, come share it with us.

Am sure people will be able to sit back and give you the same lines you are spitting out now - "where is your evidence, its a myth", etc.

So really in summary it emerges that you have nothing at all to say.

David, sometimes Mazaje surprises me with such thinking.

It seems daft to him that people believe in a supervening force.

But it seems sensible to him that things just popped out of nowhere.

You know, this is just one case that proves the old adage: that sometimes the simplicity of the unlearned is more truthful than the intellectual grandiose of the learned.

If i might ask, Huxley - what need does man have of the specific pieces of knowledge you have mentioned?

How does it affect my life if i am told that humans originated from Africa, or that the Cosmos was created by an Alien living on the 5th Dimension?

Quite frankly, these are entirely useless pieces of information - especially to ancient or rural people - and certainly to many modern people simply seeking daily happiness in their lives.

What the great religions seek to do, is to provide a spiritual context for a satisfactory inner life led by conscience.

This is what most people really need, as opposed to all the knowledge in the world.

You will find that both Jesus and the Buddha specifically mentioned the fact that there is much knowledge which they did not think relevant to the needs of their followers. The Buddha, standing in a forest with his disciples, plucked a leaf and stated - "what i have taught you is like this leaf, but what i have not taught you is like all the leaves in this forest".

It seems clear that religion is directed at men's inner lives, and not at temporal knowledge of existence.

Although there is no doubt that many corrupt people have hijacked religion for corrupt, and many times, violent and even murderous purposes, we cannot doubt that religion has enabled billions of people to contextualize their existence in very simple and clear terms, and provided a foundation for the understanding of ethics and conscience.

P.S - Please accept my apologies, i took the liberty of changing the title to something i thought much more apt for the discussion, you may of course change it back if you do not regard it as appropriate.

Come on Mazaje, you cannot but concede that there is a Mightier Force out there. . . whether it be called God or not is a different question. . . But the cosmos itself is evidence of a great force however you may chose to define it.

This, you can deny only at the risk of your reputation as a reasoned person.

That's fine, open the thread, i will meet you there.

Respectfully, Huxley, these questions are entirely outside the purview of this thread and what i set out to prove, so i wish not to be distracted by them, thanks.

I hope we can address this issue without Fanatism.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-315294.0.html

Empirical Reasoning for Non-Partisan Theism and Deism over here

During the Apartheid years in South Africa, the world rallied against apartheid and eventually put it to the sword.

The Free World (the west) has always been quick to condemn countries that suppress basic human freedoms. The baic rights to freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of movement, freedom of thought, religion and conscience, freedom of choice of marriage partner and others are all rights that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia heavily suppresses - and particularly with regard to women.

I visited that Country recently and i must say that i was absolutely outraged at the level of gender - apartheid going on in that country. Women are altogether nothing but slaves, oppressed more intensely than blacks in South Africa ever were.

Women are not permitted to drive (Denial of Freedom of Movement).

Women are not permitted to go out in public without being supervised by a male relative (Denial of Freedom of Movement and Right to Privacy).

Women are forced to cover themselves from head to toe (Denial of Freedom of Choice, thought, Conscience).

Women are not permitted to travel without written permission from their husbands (Denial of Freedom of Movement).

Women are not allowed to talk to any man who is not a family member (Denial of Freedom of Association).

Women are forbidden to testify in judicial proceedings save where corroborated by a man (Denial of Fair Hearing).

Women are not permitted to chose their own spouses (Denial of Right to Chose Marriage Partner).

And many more.

When i see the manner in which the United States makes much noise about countries with supposedly poor human rights records, but keeps mum about the gender apartheid and institutionalized denial of womens rights in Saudi Arabia, i am utterly disgusted.

Rather than condemn such, you find Barack Obama going to kneel in front of the Saudi King. A champion of female oppression.

This is being posted on the Religion Section on account of the unfortunate fact that these anomalies in Saudi Society arise principally from the interpretation or application of Islamic Ethos.

Is the oppression of women and Denial of their civil rights in Saudi Arabia something that arises from Islamic Teaching?

stillwater:
Did these comets talk as we see in the bible?

Good grief, dont you get that that was an example?! ! ! ? ? ?

Mazaje, please stop mis-defining atheism to suit your personal purposes.

Atheism denies the existence of God: simple.

It has nothing to do with "man - made gods".

Is it possible that the "angels" and "demons" are really extra-terrestial beings which we do not yet understand.

For example the way comets were once thought to be spirits, but are now knowns to be gases and stones moving in space. . .

My dear valiant Knights of the Round table -

Many apologies for the delayed reversion. It was a hectic weekend for me filled with loads of energetic sex.

I realized as a consequence that the answer to our debate is very simple: God must be a woman, and surely originated between those legs!

Getting serious though, before i begin to address again our core deductive argument per se, i noticed two very interesting posts which i feel compelled to comment upon. I hope this will not create a sub-argument which will derail the thread, but contribute to a holistic delivery of the desired conclusion.

Krayola2:
@ deepsight. . .

you said something like God must have existed before the big bang, which was the start of space and time.

"before" and "after" are measurements of time, aren't they? so if time does not exist, can there be a "before"?. Is there anything logical there?

Let us reflect closely on this: Is it possible for time not to exist?

Pastor AIO:
Great observation. Huxley once posted a thread saying that Jesus was slaughtered from the foundation of the world. He said that meant that Jesus's sacrifice occurred at creation. I said not necessarily. The foundation of the world doesn't have to be a point in time. Every moment in time is suffused with eternity.

Great one, Pastor AIO - Every moment is indeed suffused with eternity.

I absolutely disagree with the supposition made by many thinkers and scientists that Space and Time were created by or at the moment of the big bang.

Space and Time are indefinite intangible continuums which are infinite by their very nature.

Is it really possible to state that Time did not exist at any point?

What really is Time?

The Big Bang happened at a POINT in time and merely serves as the commencement of THIS universe. Lord knows how many universes exist, and the eternal quantity called Time cannot be circumscribed by reference to ANY physical event, including the Big Bang. The Big Bang is an expansion of matter, but it should be noted that that matter is expanding into already existing space.

Thus we cannot state that Space and Time were created by the Big Bang. Space and Time are eternal and infinite continuums which have existed eternally before the Big Bang and will exist eternally by their intrinsic nature.

I hope to demonstrate as we go along that along with numbers, Space and Time are core immutable aspects of the nature of God - constituent elements that exist inherently without needing a cause and in unison, form the cause for the existence of contingent elements.

Are you at home with what we have established thus far; namely:

  1. Since 0 + 0 = 0 then the Universe had to be caused by something

  2. That that "something" must be an irremovable and permanent quantity on the left side of the equation (e.g: 0 + 1 = 1)

  3. Accordingly we see logically that that "something" is a necessary and not contingent element, and thus is eternal -      such as numbers, for example, which needn't be created.

  4. That Design + Purpose = Mental Activity

  5. That the presence of mental activity and indeed the eternal nature of numbers presupposes an inherent intelligence within the "something" that caused the universe.

Thus so far we have extablished the existence of an eternal intelligent element which is the cause of the universe and all that exists.

If you are comfortable with the foregoing we can proceed.

alimat, since he has run away, help to answer the question: would you give your own 9 year old daughter out in marriage? would you like it is you were given out in marriage at age 9 to some one old enough to be your grandfather.

OLABOWALE COME BACK HERE AND ANSWER THE QIESTION: WILL YOU GIVE YOUR OWN 9 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER OUT IN MARRIAGE?

WE WILL NOT ALLOW YOU ESCAPE UNTIL YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION.

But there is actually alot of evidence. Watch UFO Files on National Geographic Channel, you will be amazed the facts out there. The Russian Government on one occassion even had to cordon off an area where two UFOs had crashed into the sea. Of course we all know about the famous Roswell Incident. And crucially, Buzz Aldrin, who was on the moon with Neil Armstong stated that when they landed on the moon, there were actually many other strange aircraft and observatories visible to them. But he later retracted this statement, obviously under pressure from the government to hush things up.

Read Sidney Sheldon's "Doomsday Conspiracy" in which he proved in the post script that the CIA had systematically executed over 20 scientists you had observed UFOs and were going to publish the clear results.

Alot of the major and inexplicable leaps in western military technology actually have been the result of studies on crashed alien aircraft.

We are only trying to school you dogmatists. By the way, you are African are you not? You all open your throats and swallow imported myths hook line and sinker.

Please can you think out of the box for once.

Some of the teachings of the church are absolutely absurd.

Not to speak about the blood-soaked history of the church and particularly the papacy.

We are intervening for your own good: and we will not stop until we have made it clear that there is little merit in the imported pagan myths that this thread seeks to idealize.

OLABOWALE DONT RUN AWAY. WE WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO ESCAPE WITH THIS. ANSWER THE QUESTION: WILL YOU GIVE YOUR OWN NINE YEAR OLD DAUGHTER OUT IN MARRIAGE TO A MAN OLD ENOUGH TO BE HER GRAND FATHER?

Mazaje - Tpia's point is perfectly valid and i am surprised that you do not see the inherent contradiction in your position - you are willing to accept the possible existence of extra-terrestials but in another breadth you insist that they must be of the same substance and on the same plane or dimension as we are on? ? ?

If you insist that we do not know anything for sure then you must agree that we cannot possibly limit what sorts of extra terrestials are out there.