₦airaland Forum

I sincerely hope that the little explanations i can have time to give at this moment will be seen, neither as an attempt to boast in the knowledge of scripture nor an attempt to confuse scriptures.

[/quote][quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=61317.msg1578130#msg1578130 date=1192147285]Dear donnie,

I would love to have sat down to walk you through Scripture so you realize that you are gravely mistaken. I'll do so sometime next week when I return from an assignment.

But for the moment, let me offer you these considerations:

(a) nowhere in Scripture is Christ said to have taken upon himself the nature of satan.

NOT TRUE!

It is because you haven't properly defined sin that is the reason you find it hard to understand me. This is the reason He prayed the father to let this cup pass from Him. It wasnt the physical death or the beatings. It was the fact that He will become sin for us. He would be seperated from the father who does not behold iniquity. That is why on the cross, when the father turned His back on Jesus he cried out: My God My God. why has thou forsaken me?


Sin is more than an act, it is the nature of Satan; just like righteousness is more than an act but the very nature of God. It is that sin nature that God seeks to deal with for at the new birth this nature is completely supplanted(not renewed or refurbished) with the divine nature. And this has nothing to do with what  the man did or did not do.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. . .  

You are either a child of God or a child of satan; no middle ground.

In the same way Christ became sin for us; the one who believes is made(not just righteous but) the righteousness of God in Him.

It reminds me of the brazen serpent which Moses made to save the Isrealites from death. That serpent (which is a symbol of sin) was spoken of agian in the new testament. For in the same way that serpent was lifted up on that rod, so the son of man is lifted today for the world to see and believe.


John 3:14 
"As [Num 21:9] Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must [Matt 8:20] the Son of Man [John 8:28; 12:34] be lifted up;

A lack of proper understanding of the message of salvation is what is responsible for the weakness we see in the church today.

[/quote][quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=61317.msg1578130#msg1578130 date=1192147285](b) the Bible teaches that at the Incarnation, Christ took upon Him the "seed of Abraham" - which is more expressive of His Humanity (see Heb. 2:14).

You talk about the incarnation I'm talking about what happened on the cross

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=61317.msg1578130#msg1578130 date=1192147285]But even so, in bearing our sins at the Crucifixion, He never took upon Him the "nature" of Satan. Sure, He was made Him "to be sin for us" (1 Cor. 5:21): but what that connotes is simply the picture of Him being our vicarious sacrifice as in Isaiah's prophecy:

"the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53:6)

God made "His [Christ's] soul an offering for sin" (Isa. 53:10)

(c) In making Him "to be sin for us" (same as Isaiah's prophecy above), it does not suggest that God transformed Christ into actual sin, nor that Christ therefore took the nature of Satan upon Himself! What He bore upon Himself were our sins (Isaiah 53:6; 1 Pet. 2:24) - not the nature of Satan.[/quote]I dare say that you do not understand the scriptures you just quoted.


[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=61317.msg1578130#msg1578130 date=1192147285](d) Now, if at all He took upon Himself the nature of satan, He would not have been the perfect sacrifice! Death claimed everything that was held by sin, and no one escaped its grip (cf. Rom. 5:14). However, because Christ was absolutely sinless, and was indeed still sinless in dying on the Cross, the Bible clearly teaches that it was not possible that death should hold Him back (Acts 2:24). If He had faced death with the nature of Satan upon Him, the resurrection would definitely not have occured![/quote]No no no, you are getting it all wrong.

When he was condemned to the cross, A righteous man was condemned. But on that cross of calvary, something happened. Something beyond the ordinary. Our sins were layed on him, he took upon himself a form that words cannot fully describe. All manner of sickness sin and disease fastened themselves to His body.   

It was a shock to them when they pierced His side and blood and water gushed out showing that His heart had ruptured in just six hours! The roman centurion went on His knees when he saw this.

Isaiah 52:14
Just as there were many who were appalled at him [a]—
       his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
       and his form marred beyond human likeness—


He had to die Spiritually first in order to die physically.

Isaiah 53

   5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

   6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

   7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

   8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

   9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth


In the highlighted verse above, the margin KJV has it as plural (ie deaths) indicating that he died two deaths. Spiritually (his seperation from the father) first, then physically. For the father who does not behold iniquity turned his back on Jesus who had been made sin for us. This is what made Jesus cry out: father why have you forsaken me.

Jesus speaking to the Jews, said, Ye are of your father the devil (why? bc they had his nature) and the deeds of your father you will do (naturally). They had his nature of sin, therefore they were slaves of sin, Abrahamic covenant or no Abrahamic covenant. The law was Holy but they were carnal.

What was needed was a new creation.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=61317.msg1578130#msg1578130 date=1192147285](e) However, many people read the word "hell" in Acts 2:27 & 31 and assume that the Lord Jesus went to the place reserved for the wicked in other that He might be "punished" and then be "born again" by resurrection. Absurd reasoning, actually.

Here is a link that will help you understand the place where Jesus went to in His death:

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46892.64.html#msg1382535)

Please access that link and see the distinctions I earlier offered to show that Jesus Christ did not go to "HELL" as we have many times supposed! He went to HADES - which is simply the place of the departed dead, and not GEHENNA (which is the place of punishment for the wicked dead)!

It is unfortunate that the KJV and other such versions of the Bible have the word "hell" in those verses to make many people suppose that Jesus went to some place that He did NOT go! Check this out by comparing with Ephesians 4:9 - Christ descended to the "lower parts" of the earth, and NOT into "hell".[/quote]Hope i can have enough time to meet you over there. I am sure there is a lot you have not seen in the scriptures on that topic.

And just to drop an advice here, God is not impressed by your trying to distance Jesus from sin in His work of redemption. Let the Word speak for itself.

Hmm,

When will all this reloigiousity end? The time is short, quit analysing and examining men of God; rather examine yourself to see if you are still in the faith and walking in love through the Spirit.

If you think the man is emulating anyone i dare say you do not know Pastor Chris. From what i know, he would do only what the Spirit permits him to.

can u pls mention some of them doctrines?

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=61317.msg1537577#msg1537577 date=1190908320]However, the phrase "born again" means something entirely different from what you have posted about Jesus. To say that somebody is "born again" means that they were "dead in trespasses and sins" prior to their conversion Eph. 2:1[/quote]You're right!

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=61317.msg1537577#msg1537577 date=1190908320](Unless you have clear texts to describe Jesus as such, then it would be a fallacy to hold onto that idea.[/quote]No probs. . .

The very message of salvation tells us that Jesus took the sins of the whole world upon himself.


He did not just carry our sins or become a sinner; He took upon himself the very nature of sin, the nature of satan. He became sin. What could be worse than that?

This is what became of the son of God while on the cross:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Psalm 22:6
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people

He was taken to hell like avery other condemned person but while there He became a rebel. His blood was speaking. It was accepted. The price hath been paid. He was raised up victorious over sin, death and the devil and we were raised with him. That is why when we believe in and testify of this work of Christ for our salvation, we recieve this same resurrection life with which he was raised up.

There was need for him to be born again.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=61317.msg1537577#msg1537577 date=1190908320]Later, I'll come back and expound on why it is not correct or sound to assume that Jesus was "born again". He was raised from the dead - but not "born again", because He was never "dead in trespasses and sins". Please craefully check on this - and let's rub minds together on it.

Cheers.[/quote]Am waitin. . .

@Tayo D

That was good reasoning but beg to say that there is more to those verses than has been revealed to you.

Prov.  30:4.  very well depicts the characteristics of the Word of God.

Whereas Acts 2 and Ps 110 which you quoted do not support the point you are trying to put foward.

The above verses of scripture you quoted from the book of psalms were prophetic writings.

If you will study the book of psalms you will notice that the pslmist a lot ot times spoke concerning the future, manytimes rejoicing as though he were there already.

With those particular verses, he spoke concerning the victorious resurrection of Jesus from the dead and his assension into heaven; not what you are trying to bring foward. It  talks about his corronation at the right hand of the father as king of kings and Lord of Lords to whom hath been given that name that is above all names.

The father asks His son Jesus to sit  at his right hand of authority and power until His enemies are made His footstool (ie. until they are completely put under the feet of the church).

Jesus is still there at the right hand of the father ensuring that the will of God is accomplished through us who are his seed, prolonging his days in the earth.

A parallel scripture is found in Acts 13:33 :

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jesus was the first to be born again (born from among the dead). He is the first beggoten from the dead. He was raised up to heaven and we were raised with Him. He is seated at the right of the father and we are there in Him glory!

Recently,

A friend told me about his aunt who fell ill and was dying when  they decided to travel to Port harcourt to see a popular woman of God there.

On reaching there, they were asked to pay over 100,000 naira as consultation fee.  The fee was paid but the woman died even after the prophecy of the WOG. I am also aware that it is no longer uncommon to see a preacher charging fees for healing or miracles.

I think that is wicked. Even the unsaved are not likely to be that wicked.

Well, the Holy ghost is pointing at you now; repent of your wickedness!

Yet, these are the same people who have the temerity to criticize the power of God that they see on other true servants of God who serve selflessly.

I can't say for many other preachers but i know that Pst. Oyakhilome's healing school is totally free of charge. In fact they have the abundantlife scheme where those who have spent all their money and resources trying to get healed are hepled to their feet. Many are given new businesses to manage and others are given scholarships, clothing and even housing. I also know of his inner city mission school where hundreds of children are taken off the streets and given new lives with food, shelter, clothing and free education.

I see what other kind-hearted preachers like Pastor Adeboye, Kumuyi and T B Josuah do for the poor and needy.

Unlike me, i will use this thread to expose suck wicked acts as well as their perpetrators if need be. I will not forgret to also expose their man-made doctrines of deliverance, ancestral curses etc. which they use to manipulate their congregation who they will rather leave in ignorance, rather than teach them  the word of their liberty.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=81236.msg1530089#msg1530089 date=1190731917]@donnie,
Can you please explain what you mean by the highlighted statement. I believe the statement is yours and not Oyahks. He knows the scriptures better than to make such unfounded statement.

Every calling of God is a High Calling. A person called to be a pastor does not have a better calling to one called to be a business man, or vice versa. The Bible teaches that your government is in authority over you and your pastor, so tell me who is subservient to whom![/quote]It's true that every calling of God is a high calling but brother; there are higher callings. The children of Isreal were called of God with a high calling but Moses was called by a 'higher' calling to lead them and bring them God's Word. Those chosen of God to lead and shepherd God's flock should be esteemed very highly according to scripture. Nevertheless, no calling is 'better' than the other as no one calls himself to funtion in the kingdom but God. Just like the soup bowl is not better than the waste bin even though it may look more attractive or presentable; both items when properly serving their purposes, make a great house. However, while one may be brought to the dinning table and used by the master of the house, the other is better left at the back of the house.


As for the pastor / polititian. May i remind you that in God's way, the prophet appointed who the king should be and blessed him. Not the other way round. One office is temporary, subject to change, the other is for life.

And in that day, the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our God.

The government is in authority over the state and those who live, function and are from that state. However, the people of God are first and formost  subject to the heavenly government in God's kingdom where they originate from, before any other government. That is why we are commanded to pray for the goverment so that we may lead quiet and peaceable lives. That is also the reason  why the government can make or enact laws that are anti-christ which laws we will oppose in defence of the gospel.


Howeever, it does not matter to which office you are called. What matters is how well you fulfil your calling.

According to the MOG, he  dosnt have the grace for politics and  besides, he wouldnt like such a demotion.

Preach on sis!

Father in the name of Jesus i pray that you reveal your love (which is beyond comprehension) to this backslider. May he return in his heart in forgiveness of himslef and in humble submission to your love. 

May he grow in grace and in knowledge of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ. Amen

I absolutely agree with you, that money isn't the problem of the poor as i have associated with a lot of them and seen their lives transformed the moment they embrase the message of the gospel.

However, it is not wise for a christain to say to a poor fellow be filled without ensuring that the miracle is complete. Just like we say to the blind, recieve your sight and they see again, we should by His Spirit ensure that the miracle of prosperity is complete.

By the way, many will follow anyone who saves their lives, christain or no christain. So it's good we get to them first.

We need that message of eternal life. God help us. May He grant his servants wisdom, and grace to preach this message. The gospel of their righteousness, peace and prosperity. In Jesus' name, Amen.

Expensive church buildings in my own opinion are built, not to compete with the world or to oprress the poor, but for the glory of God.

However, we shouldn't place priority on building an expensive church building at the expense of helping the poor, needy and unsaved around us.

In otherwords, you are saying we should cheer the critics on hun? Why don't you mention the names of the critics here.  Something u must undetrstand is that no true christain will want to belong to a flock where he/she is not sure the pastor is following Jesus.

If you can get at the shepherd, the sheep will be scattered; Will you prefer that? We are only grateful for our man of God. There are a lot of evils regrettably being performed by christians all over the world. Some will even claim to be following our example; but it is the Spirit that tries all things.

We trust the Word and the Spirit (not any man) by whom we are made strong and by whom we will continue to plunder the kingdom of darkness.

By the way, Christ Embassy will be distributing 2 million copies of Rhapsody of realities FREE to celebrate independence in Nigeria!

Glory to Jesus!

I am not trying to decide or approve anything. I have been blessed by coming in contact with his ministry and i have only gotten to know Jesus better since then.

He that blieveth not that Jesus is the Christ hath not etenal life! Amen.

My dear, it isn't hard for me to admit my wrong when there is a wrong.

Humility is a fruit of the recreated human spirit.

If i may ask, will taking my baby to a babalawo for tribal marks and cuts or for dedicatin to some gods carry significant potency?

Why don't the parents wait for the child's acceptnce of or belief in those devils before initiating him? why did they not wait for him to exercise his right to choose?

The child is qualified to be baptised because he is sanctified by his parents fatih.

1 Corinthians 7:14 - "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."   

If children of believers are saved, what about children of unbelievers?

Like their parents, they are unsaved!

This is not the first time i am going over this on this thread is it?

By the way, the above picture (by Oracle) is not baptism. Baptism is complete immersion.

Of course i can defend what i said; its just that i do not feel i should do so now. I mean, in the present circumstance, i do not feel led to; bearing in mind that some really are more interested in winning an arguement than in understanding God's word.

Blessings.

You know what guys, i will not continue any further on these issues as i think i have explained my point as much as is necessary and besides, i know where discussions like these with folks like you always lead to.

As for the many explanations you might still need, maybe you should go back and consult those junk magazines and gossip websites/links which i percieve you visit regularly.

I am currently very busy with my work. God bless ya'll

A child born to believing parents is sanctified by thier belief. He too can be baptized.

Oh i feel sorry for you. I actually thought you were abreast of the facts. Do you now see where were differ?

Well, if you will like to know; he never signed that letter. The signature was not his. He wasn't even aware of such a letter being written. It was only after his attention was drawn to the publication, that he asked for the writer of the letter who has since explained himslf. If you understand administrations, you will know what i'm saying. In Christ Embassy, money recieved as donations, are for the local church. This man was a  member of one of the many satelite churches in lagos.

Lie? I have too much rank for that. It is already clear to you (even though you pretend as though it isn't) because you would prefer to believe a lie. How profane.

I agree with you on that

At least you agree your man of God lied. I have had no cause to say that of Pastor Chris whom you are struggling tooth and nail to bring into this discussion.

Leave all that comparison alone. It dosn't work that way. You can go ahead and start another thread on the topic if you are so keen on covering up a lie with another lie. This thread isn't about such comparisons. Are you trying to turn a lie into truth? It is clear to all who love truth that Pastor Chris never recieved money from the man, neither did he write nor order any of those letters to be written. Even the man accused of fraud said he never gave pastor chris nor the church stolen money even though he had donated money to the church at other times like any other christain will do.

If i want to bring up all the dirty stories and rumurs i have heard about men of God in this country (including pastor Bakare), it could be an endless endeavour, and besides, it will do  His body no good.

Do not forget, there is nothing  hidden under the sun, lies cannot outlive truth.

I believe i have made myself clear enough. God hates the lying tongue.

I am not on your back man.

I am only concerned when i see people speak ignorantly.

For your information, i do not carry curls and also for the records, i actually attempted doing a head count of those who wore curls in church on a particular sunday after seeing your post. After a hard search, i could only find one person.

Man, what we carry is the divine presence of Jesus. That is what we seek to introduce and so far we have been successful by his grace. And He keeps giving us more grace to reach more people.

That's the way it always goes. You first try to discredit the man of God, when unsuccesful, you call his church members hero-worshippers.

Well, God's knows best.

Pls correct me if I am wrong.

I see that you are trying to make excuses for some little lies to be told by men of God every now and then as long as they do not present them as prophecies. No sir! That is not the way God deals with His ministers. A man of God must be blameless. He must be mature.

The bible says, we offend in many ways but if any man offend not in Word, He is a perfect man.

I do not know if you have actually sat down to consider the meaning of the Phrase, Man of God. This means that men should seek the Word of the Lord from your lips. It is that serious.

The bible says about Samuel the prophet:

1 Samuel 3:19
And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.

The Lord will hold us accountable for every idle Word.

@Pilgrim

Do i not have a right  to express what my concerns are about anything?

Believe me, i am not biased towards him or anyone. I do not have time for that.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=72349.msg1435524#msg1435524 date=1188216016]@donnie,

Even your own submission get as e be!

Does it then mean that a "vision" and a "prophecy/prophesying" are one and the same thing?

If they do not mean the same thing, why misread them as if they are the same?

Perhaps, there's something you know that we might be missing here - so could you help us understand how Tunde Bakare "prophelied" that he saw Chris Oyakhilome in a "vision"?[/quote]For someone to see a vision is one thing. But to tell the same vision to God's people is equivalent of prophecy. In fact, the mere preaching of the message can be regarded as prophecy because prophecy is speaking words (from God) with power. Even the scriptures are regarded as the word of prophecy.

With regards to Pastor Bakare who is seen by many in the church as standing in the office of the prophet, and whose words are expected to be coming from the Lord, we should not expect any less. I am not out to criticize him. No. I am only saying that since it is expected that his words meet the criteria of having come from the Lord, i was dissapointed to hear that from him.

[quote author=b,sleek link=topic=263.msg1434547#msg1434547 date=1188199775]their is this new pastor from lagos covenant christian center -past poju Oyemade he has the word of God in his mouth and if i have my way i would ahve love to contact him i ,l advise u all please don't condem ministers of God jst make sure u are serving God where you are in spirit and in truth[/quote]Yap, i've seen a few of those up-coming men of God who are making exploits: Pst Oyemade in Lahos, Pst David Ibiyome and Pst Obgeche in Port Harcourt and the pastor of Dominion city (can't remember the name now) to mention a few.

Is Tunde Bakare a man of God?

From my own point of view, YES.

Are his prophesies always true?

Emphatiacally No!

Infact, in recent years i am careful who i give attention to.

I made that decision, when he prophelied

that he saw pastor Chris Oyakhilome in a vision recieving money

from T B Josuah in order to endorse his ministry. Imagine such lies in the name of God.

I knew that sooner or later he will be exposed by those same prophesies.

That is not to say i do not respect him; he is a man of God and i respect him as such.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=2738.msg1370152#msg1370152 date=1186586613]Baptism has to do with a personal decision
itz not imposed or given to someone who doesn't know about it.[/quote]Well that's as long as you do not know why God gave that child to you nor the will of God for him/her.

For when you do, you will see it as your responsibility to put him/ her on the right path before God.

Bless you brother,

And you know that's what some are angry(or should i say envious) about; the gift of God.
Hence they go to any length to find faults.

Cheer up bretheren, the Word Works!