₦airaland Forum

hifaif: Christians feel they have found the truth about how the universe came to be.

Yes we have found the truth on how the universe began because The Creator of the universe still communicates with people who diligently seek Him.

Science isn't waiting on what it already has.

You can see now I know you've been programmed with something "Science Science" as if only the Atheist do science.

Christians don't even want to imagine that the bible might be wrong.

Why would s/he imagine on what is real when God still communicates with His people or do you think Christian serve God who can't fellowship with His own?

Do you also think/imagine that scientists can be wrong sometimes?

Science doesn't feel it has the total knowledge about how we found ourselves here.

So if scientists don't know all about our origin how do you want them to know about the Creator?
If God truly exists can scientist design how to know Him or it's God who will tell scientist how He can be known?

Christians feel that we should stop searching.

Nobody said you should stop searching but as you're searching always see the hand of a Creator and intelligent Design in our universe. Simple!
"For the invisible things of Him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] His everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: ASV, Rom 1:20

Since you're being searching have you explored our own galaxy finish talk less of the whole universe?

hifaif: Do I have to reply you on this? No, I don't think so.

You need to reply because you must've been programmed with something it's either you believe in creator God or you're accidentally here by father Big bang.

By the you didn't answer my question, how did you know that Bible was written by cave men?
Were you there or you read it online and believe?

This is where most of NL Atheist problem lies they can quickly judge Christian of believing in Bible written by man BUT forgotten that what they read online was also written by man.

hifaif: I must say that all the sample dialogues I gave are entirely my creation. I didn't copy and paste. It is only the image that is not mine. The bible passage is a favourite of mine. I made a mistake. It is 29:29 not 19:19.

Bro, do you believe in the creation story as recorded in Genesis?

Do you believe that if God truly exists MAN can't design the way of knowing Him?

OK as you admitted your mistake, wherever Christian do reason outside the Bible but only take Bible as the word of God as final.

Yes I so believe in Genesis creation (A creationist) account because God has revealed Himself to me, so man will only try to dive into our origin but they can't surpass THE CREATOR who Himself is the eyes witness of His own work.

hifaif: Atheist: Why can't you just reason outside the Bible

Pure lie, many Christians reason outside the Bible. I believe you know more about Creationist, if you don't Google it.

What Christians are telling you is logic and reasoning can't find God but they can only let you know more about God.

You'll agree with me that if God truly exists MAN can design the method of how to find Him(which Atheist are doing) RATHER it is God Himself who can design the way MAN can find Him(which is what Bible teaches)

Christian: I can't
Atheist: Why?

Another lie for cheap publicity.
I bet it with you if some Nairaland Atheist and I engage in any aspect of science both theory and practical hardly one will defeat me YET they always think as science is met for them alone.

Christian: Because the Bible say we shouldn't reason. Read Deuteronomy 19:19

This Bible verse has nothing to do with even what you're saying here.

Are you sure you read it or just copy and paste?

hifaif: Atheist: Don't you think some cave men searching for a meaning to their lives wrote the creation story?

How you yourself know about this?

Christian: No
Atheist: Why are you so sure?

Why are you so sure too?

Christian: Because the Bible says the scriptures were inspired by God
Atheist: And who told you they were really inspired by God?

because God never ceased to communicate with human. Those who have found God beyond the written of the Bible can testify.

hifaif: You can't win an argument against somebody who has been programmed to defend an assertion from being challenged or questioned

what were you programmed with?

Skeptic: Why do you believe in the bible?
Christian: Because it is the word of God
Skeptic. How do you know it is the word of God?
Christian: Because the Bible says so.

You're a liar no where Bible refers to itself as the "Word of God".

You just dive into what you don't know or you deliberately speaking lie.

malvisguy212: interesting. Allah is weak. Expect know reply Bros.

Abi oooo my brother no wonder there's no single respond since the thread has been opened.

What grade will you give Allah for its English composition?

Allah praising itself;

Muslims claim is that Qur'an is a pure word of Allah without any human interjection but when one read Qur'an s/he finds the speaker speaking in first person pronouns, third person plural pronouns or referring to someone else.

Who is the Lord of the throne here?

Why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they would surely go to ruin; so glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne, above that they describe! He shall not be questioned as to what He does, but they shall he questioned. Or have they taken gods apart from Him? Say: 'Bring your proof! This is the Remembrance of him who is with me, and the Remembrance of those before me. Nay, but the most part of them know not the truth, so therefore they are turning away. And We sent never a Messenger before thee except that We revealed to him, saying, 'There is no god but I; so serve Me.' They say:' 'The All-merciful has taken to Him a son.' Glory be to Him! Nay, but they are honoured servants that outstrip Him not in speech, and perform as He commands. He knows what is before them and behind them, and they intercede not save for him with whom He is well-pleased, and they tremble in awe of Him. If any of them says, 'I am a god apart from Him', such a one We recompense with Gehenna; even so We recompense the evildoers. S. 21:22-29

Angel196: LOL we don't make claims without proofs. I gave proof so the rest is ur business. U said NO CHRISTIAN worship mary n i proved u wrong. I gave u the name of a book. U just don't want to accept, i did my own part, its up to u. Lol

Where did you prove me wrong?

Do you also know that Allah never condemned Christian Trinity? because you didn't pick up my challenge in other post.

Infomizer: I don't think so. He prolly knows i'm not a muslim. We were invited to refute olaadegbu's statement.

OK! But Ola wasn't wrong anyway because relationship with God/personal encountered has been my prone challenge to Muslims and no Muslims has ever claimed to do that.

Angel196: Because my God is one

because you've made to believe it.

Check this thread out and see how Qur'an failed simple English composition, in fact as an English student give Allah mark for yourself.

https://www.nairaland.com/1859103/quran-linguistic-miracle-problem

Angel196: Is it ignorance or what?

It's ignorance at your own part to force Qur'anic wrong teaching into another person's believe.

Please google this n tell me No christians worship mary.

I don't need to Google it I know what they claimed.

Many christians wrote articles against those christians who worship mary n even proved that there are indeed christians who worship mary.

Thank God that you said many Christian NOT WHAT THE CATHOLIC themself believe.
I put it to you, what did Catholic them self claim?

Many people both Atheist/Christian wrote many articles about Islam, do you take them serious or as a yard stick to judge Qur'an?

I'm a Christian but not a Catholic, and what Catholic usually claims is that THEY ONLY VENERATE Mary (like giving her honour-BESIDE anyway they venerated/honour her is left for them) BUT they don't worship her.

It's just so ridiculous that you want to force Qur'anic wrong teaching into their believe.

Infomizer: The 'truth' then is probably that not even a moderate christian will tell you that they have a personal relationship with their jehovah.
Greetings @apatheist...

You were invited to tell us the relationship you/Muslims have with Allah not to turn it other way round.

Angel196: Mr. this verse wasn't talking about trinity but was a verse asking Jesus weather he asked men to worship him and his mother. U can't deny that some christians worship mary i.e take her as god while others worship jesus(pbuh) i.e take him as god, therefore they become 2 gods apart from Allah. If u don't understand don't make conclusions. This verse doesn't talk about the people involved in trinity so don't confuse urself

You're the one who said someone shouldn't make conclusion on what he didn't understand BUT you yourself violated your own advice.

NO Christians worship Mary if you don't understand it ask a Catholic member.

Quran is wrong on this because Christian body like Catholic also believe in Trinity, so if Qur'an wants to address this it must talks about four gods which it is not.

With this I challenge you to provide a single verse in Qur'an where Trinity according to Christian formula was attacked!

If you can't, it means an omniscient Allah doesn't know Christian's believe or we should conclude that Allah embraced Trinity.

FYO anytime you're referring to Our Lord Jesus stop attaching Peace Be Upon Him(pbuh) because:
1) It's irrational to believe that someone who is in heaven (presence of God) where peace, love and grace abound STILL needs sinful human to be invoking peace on him.

2) People in heaven are free from trouble and they don't need peace rather it is people on earth who need peace to be free from Boko Haram, Ebola, War e.t.c

3) If you don't know try to know today that Jesus is the "Prince of PEACE".

tola9ja: LOL jesus was not crucified with evidence from the bible

Address my post and stop acting like a kid.

Who addressed Moses?

When Moses said to his people 'I observe a fire, and will bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that haply you shall warm yourselves.' So, when he came to it, he was called: 'Blessed is he who is in the fire, and he who is about it. Glory be to God, the Lord of all Being! Moses, behold, it is I, God, the All-mighty, the All-wise. Cast down thy staff.' And when he saw it quivering like a serpent he turned about, retreating, and turned not back. 'Moses, fear not; surely the Envoys do not fear in My presence, save him who has done evil, then; after evil, has changed into good; All-forgiving am I, All-compassionate. Thrust thy hand in thy bosom and it will come forth white without evil-among nine signs to Pharaoh and his people; they are an ungodly people.' But when Our signs came to them visibly, they said, 'This is a manifest sorcery'; and they denied them, though their souls acknowledged them, wrongfully and out of pride. Behold, how was the end of the workers of corruption! S. 27:7-14



For more: http://answeringislam.org/Quran/Miracle/not_so_eloquent.html

tola9ja: LOL we muslim believe in all prophet sent by ALLAH including jesus so you are the 1 that need to understand what jesus practice

How does your reply compliment my post?

By the way I know you believe in Qur'anic Jesus but not the one who was crucified in Palestine 2000years ago, the saviour of the world.

The confused people have change their teaching again I think this time around the light has gotten more than brighter.
This quote was taken from Good news from God 2012 topic 'Who is Jesus Christ?'
"Soon, Jesus will use His power as king to bring an end to all suffering and to those who cause it. All who exercise faith in Jesus by obeying him will enjoy life in a Paradise on earth." p. 9

The reader should have it in mind that in other for Muslims to explain away the problem of plurality within the divine person of Allah they claimed that ROYAL PRONOUN was used by Allah in Qur'an but does it solve the problem?..... Let's see!

1) There's no a plurality of Divine Persons according to Islamic theology yet the Quran says Allah does have a God, Lord, or Master.

What, shall I seek after any judge but God? For it is He who sent down to you the Book well-distinguished; and those whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from thy Lord with the truth; so be not thou of the doubters. S. 6:114

What, is every man of them eager to be admitted to a Garden of Bliss? Not so; for We have created them of what they know. No! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and Wests, surely We are able to substitute a better than they; We shall not be outstripped. S. 70:38-41.

Allah swears by the Lord of the easts and wests, says that he will seek no other judge besides God and that he gave the book that Muhammad’s Lord sent down!

2) Whom did Allah pray to?
He it is who prays for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer

Verily, God AND His angels pray for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him and salute him with a salutation! S. 33:56 Palmer

Prayer entails calling upon or supplicating someone who can hear you, which in the context of Islamic worship means invoking Allah:

3) Who did Allah hymn praises to?
Lo! verily, ye and that which ye worship, Ye cannot excite (anyone) against Him. Save him who is to burn in hell. There is not one of US but hath his known position. Lo! We, even We are they who set the ranks, Lo! WE, even WE are they who hymn His praise S. 37:161-166 Pickthall

Allah is supposed to speaking here as he shifts from first person plural to third person singular pronouns. But this is where the confusion sets in. He knows his position, sets the ranks, and is the one who hymns the praises of God! Who tells Allah what his position is and to whom is singing?

4) And (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, Allah watches over them, and you have not charge over them. And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire. And if Allah had pleased He would surely have made them a single community, but He makes whom He pleases enter into His mercy, and the unjust it is that shall have no guardian or helper. Or have they taken guardians besides Him? But Allah is the Guardian, and He gives life to the dead, and He has power over all things. And in whatever thing you disagree, the judgment thereof is (in) Allah's (hand); that is Allah, MY Lord, on Him do I rely and to Him do I turn time after time. S. 42:6-10 Shakir

The one (We) who revealed the Quran to Muhammad (you) is speaking here, which means that this is Allah who is addressing Muhammad. But, then, the one who revealed the Quran not only refers to Allah in the third person (Allah, Him) but also says that Allah is his Lord whom he relies on and constantly turns to! In other words, Allah is saying that Allah is his Lord whom he depends on!


For more: http://answeringislam.org/Shamoun/muslim_god_criteria.htm

mathmatica: ....As if I care...

Please try to be care so that you can know the truth.

Check all the source of this article if they contain lies then don't care but if they are true then try to be more than care.


@Op
One of the area JW lack knowledge of the scriptures is Holy spirit part.
I once asked a man who told me he has been a JW for the past 10years, if Holy spirit is a force how can It hear?
His response was that he'll will ask people more about it in fact he doesn't even know such word exist in the Bible.

tola9ja: This platform is known for truth and confirmed information and has never found to have carried foul/false News. For over some months now there have been an information circulating about the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) being involve in sponsoring Boko haram insurgent activities in Nigeria sighting the News of her to have bailed Muhammad Yusuf when first arrested before he was murdered which CAN never disputed but our research informants are still looking into confirming the authenticity of this claim

So if your platform where you did the copy & paste was known for truth and confirmed information WHY carried unconfirmed & inauthentic information?

Can you see this contradiction?

In conclusion, we are posting this neither to say Christians are the mastermind of the threat to our national unity, bombing and the killing by the Boko haram nor clearing the tagged on Islam or the stigma on the Muslims but to let everyone know the truth and that we must look carefully behind the scene, put religious, ethnical or tribal sentiments aside in this issues affecting Nigeria and our lives. We dnt mean to tag CAN but are only wondering why CAN always blame the recent rues in Nigeria to Islam and Muslims. If what CAN stands for is to praise Government shortcomings, blaim Muslims, plan propaganda to blackmail Islam, cover the truth and broadcast falsehood, then they are nothing but a satanic cult group hiding under Christianity, killng Muslims and Christians and make them blaim it on one another to create religious war, disunity and destroy love,peace and co-existence in Nigeria. We are wondering why so many Christians do not even know this CAN or accept her, [color=green]no wonder Pastor Bakare and some other prominent pastors vowed never to be a member of this group.[/green] Therefore we all need to stand by the truth and be people of truth and justice, one day we will pack our load and leave this earth for real.

Compare all the colored part to each other.
You're not trying to tag CAN but according to you and your co-brainwashed fellow, who is the sponsor of Boko Harram?
What truth do you want us know?

Like I always say whenever Muslims find problems within their case the next thing is to turn to Christian.
Is it CAN who wrote those Jihadist verses in the Quran?
Was it CAN who behind the Al-Qeada, Taliban, ISIS, ISIJ, Al-Shaba e.t.c?

The good thing you can do to yourself is to sit down and ask simple question why all these are so common in any Muslim dominated area?

Until you realise that there's problem then solution can come.
It's good as you realised that there's problem within Quran and those who profess faith on it BUT it's never too late, come to Jesus who says "My Peace I give unto you not as THE WORLD giveth..."
Jesus is ready to receive you.

tola9ja: 1 ISLAMIC SHARIA LAW FOR EQUITY IN PUNISHMENT

2.ISLAMIC SHARIA LAW ON BLASPHEMY AGAINST GOD

3.SHARIA LAW ON INTEREST TAKING AND BRIBERY

TO BE CONTINUE
THAT IS SHARIA LAW INSIDE THE BIBLE THESE WHAT SAUDI ARABIA AS BEEN USING FOR PAST DECADE THAT WHY THEY ARE FREE FROM CORRUPTION MAKE THEM THE WORLD NO1 NON CORRUPT COUNTRY IF NIGERIA CAN APPLY THIS LAW I THINK IT WILL BE BETTER THAN THIS

Thank Allah that you've boldly come out to admit that Qur'an supports a lot of killing even till the day of judgement.

Anytime Muslims find problems within their Holy book the next thing to do is to turn to Christians Holy book the Word of God.

*To justify their own contradictions they went and published "101 contradictions in the Bible" YET THE GULLIBLE PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE BIBLE PROPHESIED THE COMING OF Muhammad

*To justify that Qur'an and Muhammad truly support Jihad of killing innocent souls and Apostate they begin to misinterpreted Jesus' statement when Jesus told His disciples to buy sword.

*To justify a lot of abrogation in the dubious act of Allah through Muhammad they also jump into Bible without having understanding of how Yahweh has planned His work of SALVATION from the beginning.

If their claims are true then it means either of the two books can be trusted but they always fail when comes to Bible.

So as society and current situation in the Muslims' world have posed a lot of REALITY for you to see all the inconsistencies within your book PLEASE it's time to question yourself INSTEAD of comparing Quranic problems with Bible.

uzoexcel:
in a court of law, if something was counted as 969 and i say its about 1000, is it not better than someone else saying its actually 971.

So you mean Allah is also acting as human being?

Wasn't this event suppose to be happened in Allah's presence?

Why would Allah using human methodology when He suppose to know what was actually counted?

In a court of law an All-knowing God shouldn't use a guess game but given actual number since He knows the actual number counted even before it was counted.

frosbel: The message of salvation is loud and clear within scripture as a whole.

I will still repeat myself, you want to eat your cake and have it.

How are you sure that these people weren't mistaken in their message of SALVATION since you agree that they record error?

Really!! So we should ignore obvious errors and contradictions even though most scholars agree that these matters do pose certain problems?

The only problem what seems to be discrepancy could pose it's on the part of people like you who couldn't reconcile God's word accurately rather depending on what Atheist says to judge God's word.

Also, since you like to criticise the Quran, why can't the bible be open to the same methods of analysis?

In what way did I criticise Qur'an?
Of course Bible has been opened to scrutinizing that's why things like these can come up.

1. Inspiration is one thing, communicating the message through imperfect beings is another.

Do you believe God can inspire error?
Was God found it difficult to communicate accurately with imperfect being?

2. We do not have the original autographs today, what we have are copies of copies and hence unwitting but passable errors have been made.

Are you attacking the original writers & their manuscripts or the copy from copy manuscript we have today?

[b]3.[/b]It is the overall message that we get from the bible that matters and God's spirit knows how to communicate this to the true seekers.

Your answer to the above question will provide answer to this.

[b]4.[/b]There are some other errors in the bible which are either blatant falsifications or attempts to make certain doctrines fit into scripture.

let me get you clearly, did you bring out all these in errancies to let us know that God inspired people who actually recorded error or your point is what people have done to accurate word of God that make it contains discrepancies?

If I know your stand then I'll know how to continue with you.

But you can't tell me that original writers were inspired to WRITE errors and we CAN also trust their writing about SALVATION.

yemaldo: Let them correct their mistakes then,Quran has been in existence for so many years too but there isn't anything like copyist error

If you call it mistake it's left for you.

You're referring to Qur'an.
Did you know that Qur'an doesn't always give actual number of an historical even rather using a statement like "about 1000 people" which has posed weakness on Allah's part?

frosbel: The Bible is not unreliable when you read it from the context of the overall message of God's love and salvation for MANKIND.

Note a few things :

1. God used imperfect human beings
2. He did not override their will, emotion or intellect
3. He inspired them and they put pen to paper as best as they could narrate the words of God.
4. There were obviously errors and misrepresentations in some cases but these are few and far between.
5. The original manuscripts are not available, what we do have now are copies from other copies.
6. If you think about it, in those days there was no press, so scribes at different locations and times had to painstakingly copy these manuscripts.
7. During the translation to Latin , the Catholic church deliberately inserted some outright errors to support their myths such as the Trinity , Hell etc
8. These errors were carried into the English versions.
9. Nevertheless we are able to understand the specific truths of God through his Spirit and this requires humility
10. The message of Salvation is still not lost and consistent as ever.

Don't use this opportubtiy to make rash statements on what you know not.

You want to eat your cake and have it.

How do you know these men weren't mistaken in their message about SALVATION so far they could contradict themselves?

Very soon your thread will read "the God of Bible is a liar" then "There's no God"

If you agree that God inspired all the writer's of the books found in the Bible and in otherwise believe that God can't inspire error, your problem with those things you called biblical inerrancy should be 'how what seems to be Biblical inerrancy cleared away'.

Truly majority of Christians scholar have noticed these things BUT also they have come with possibility of what might actually result to these differences BY STRONGLY FIRST BELIEVE THAT it's impossible for God to inspire error AND EVERY SINGLE WORD in the BIBLE was inspired by God .

So these seem so called inerrancy were categorized into many headings.

1) Copyist's error WHICH means the original manuscripts weren't contained those discrepancies i.e where different in numerical figure can be found either in age or numbering.

2) Failure to know how God works! This should remind you that people who normally attack Bible are those who are not ready to acknowledge anything about God of the Bible or believe anything in the Bible.
This can be found in the story of who inspired David to number Is real Satan or God?

3) Failure to read the whole content/taking time to understand what the texts are saying.
And many more.

NOTE:- The second point you raised "where you said Mark supposedly to quote Malachi 3:1 but eventually quoted from Isaiah" shows that you don't read your Bible at all rather surfing internet up and down to talk about God.
How long will this help you to know God personally?

Show me where the word "WILDERNESS" appeared throughout Mal 3 not even verse1 but the whole chapter? Then check whether you won't find this same word in Isaiah 40:3.
In another word compare Isaiah 40:3 and Mark 1:2-3 then Malachi 3:1 and Mark 1:2-3 to see which one match each other.

KiddaBlingzz: I have a very thought-provoking and meditative question.
Be sober about it.
If yes why? And if no why?

would your relationship with God change it all if you discovered or were told with 100% certainty that he was actually a SHE?

I will firstly direct this question to you when you're able to answer it then I'll answer your question.

How will you discover or who are the people who can come to say so?

JesusisLord85: Liar! Works of satan.
All that nonsense you just spouted is basically misinterpretation of Paul.
The sabbath is an ordinance to be observed from generation to generation.

Tell me what Isaiah is speaking of here:

Isaiah 66:23 "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

Tell me what Paul is doing here:

Acts 13:42 "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath"

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.


So Isaiah spoke of sabbath in context of the Millenial Kingdom. Paul clearly observed it. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, The Most High set it as a commandment to be observed forever.

If you interpret anything Paul says to mean the contrary, then you are foolish for following it, because that would by definition make him a false teacher.

"Ye observe days" is not talking about the sabbath. Enter this phrase into an online bible and you will see it is mentioned in old testament, The heathen had their own special days too.

Shalom

I agree with you that God has set it (SABBATH) forever BUT NOT the way you interpreted it.

Hope these pieces of work will help?

But first know that Paul taught also that laws are the shadow of thing to come which is consummated by Christ Jesus.

Israel’s Sabbath observance, which was modeled after God’s own Sabbath, was intended to point to a greater spiritual rest. Just as God had rested from his work of creation and entered into an eternal Sabbath, a day which continues for all eternity, believers are to rest from trying to merit their
righteousness through observing the Law and trust in Christ’s perfect righteousness. Once a believer truly trusts in the Lord Jesus he enters into God’s own Sabbath whereby he no longer has to merit his justification
since he has been given the promise of eternal life:

"Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For the Gospel came to us just as to them , but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, ‘As I swore in my wrath, "They shall not enter my rest,"’ although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: ‘And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.’ And again in this passage he said, ‘They shall not enter my rest.’ Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the Gospel failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, ‘Today,’ saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted ‘Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden
your hearts.’ For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a
Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever HAS ENTERED GOD'S REST has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience." Hebrews 4:1-11

Again, since the reality has come:
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ ." Colossians 2:16-17

As Christ himself taught:
"And he said to them, ‘The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son
of man is lord even of the sabbath.’" Mark 2:27-28

Why would anyone want to return to
the copy or shadow of things?

JMAN05: Demonic ministry thrives today, the devil transforming himself into an angel of light.

It is this demonic voice they hear at times. At some other times, they hear nothing but they are accustomed to that manner of speaking. Atimes, it is just a hallucination.

Do you mean it is impossible for a believer to hear God's voice?

JMAN05: The fact is, all who have heavenly hope are called to that inheritance. The word "calling" is used for these group of anointed ones. The other sheep invitation to true worship is in no way to be exempted though.

This present claim that you are called to be a Pastor or Bishop is a deception. Granted, in the case of Paul, Jesus appointed him specifically for a ministry, but this is not going to be a pattern for all. Secondly, his appointment was to go and preach, not to separate himself and form/build his own church with his wife, with a contradictory doctrine, thereby creating a division among the body of Christ. The gifts are meant to strengthen the body, not to divide it.

Someone being an elder or overseer (which has been given a titular name Bishop/Pastor), is through appointment. 1 Tim 3:1-12 shows the quality one is to possess before appointment as an Elder or Overseer. (Note: a pastor is a spiritual shepherd. In the bible, it is the Elders that are assigned to perform that duty. Elder and Pastor are not meant to be a separate offices. The congregation is cared for by the elders/pastor[b]s[/b] NOT Pastor). So, when someone meets these qualifications as stated in the scriptures, he is appointed as an elder or shepherd/pastor. He does not need to stay and wait for when a "voice" will come and tell him that he has been appointed.

Again, all those saints with a heavenly hope are called into that privilege, to share as rulers with Christ. They also have to preach as ambassadors of Christ and invite others. that is the sense the word is used in the bible. You can not now become a pastor/bishop by special calling. You meet a certain scriptural requirement before you are appointed. Of course, in the beginning of Christianity, it is understandable that Jesus has to select people to start off the work. When Timothy started to preach and became an elder/pastor, Jesus didnt give him a special revelation, rather he accepted the goodnews by Paul, and was latter appointed to be an elder. And none of them went and established there own church, breaking away from there previous church.

Someone will say, didn't the bible say that some were gifted as prophets, evangelizers, shepherds and teachers. Eph 4:11. Yes, when Jesus ascended, he sent out the holy spirit, and people got different gifts. All those who got that holy spirit are called. However, this does not mean that they have all assumed dictatorial offices, nor does it now allow them to go and establish there own churches. No. In fact, when Paul sent Timothy to different congregations to make appointments of elders and "deacons", those he was going to appoint had received the different gifts by virtue of the holy spirit given them when they were born again. Yet, Timothy was going to appoint elders/pastors/shepherds from among them. It is these appointed men that take the lead in teaching and shepherding the "church". If timothy appoints based on the guideline given him, it is believed that God approves of the appointment. This madness of establishing man-and-wife family churches we see these days in the name of calling is so pathetic.

First time I will ever see using direct interpretation of Bible mind not the teaching of Watchtower

@Op
You can be called anyhow as God wants to use you. So leave people who claim they were called alone and work out your own SALVATION yourself.

The best question to ask as a Christian at this time of many CALLS is; the person standing before me claiming to be called by God, how can I know whether h/her claimed is genuine?

My Brother/Sister Jesus has given us the Spirit of discernment to know the TRUTH.

italo: Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever mentioned "bible"

The Bible was created centuries later by the Catholic Church.

Using the Word CREATED is wrong.
Compilation is the best word.

lacum: ur positn is not yet clear. Are u saying dat neida d bible nor d church can help us worship God in spirit m in truth?

I'll use this your post together in answering the OP.

Firstly, Bible is a compilation of an historical books written by men through the inspiration of God in other to convey the very MIND of God towards His creation AND how God had dealt with MAN in the past WITH His future PLAN for man.

Secondly, You have to know that the very word 'BIBLE' never appeared within the book itself.

Thirdly, the Church In quote is not the building you go and worship every Sunday or sometimes during the week. church signifies THE SAINT(s) who have been made perfect by the finishing work of Christ. Jesus is coming for His church (the SAINTS) NOT denominations i.e those who has acknowledged Him as their personal Lord and Saviour.
Although the term 'Church (as building)' has been using to identify the gathering of believers in Christ.

Lastly, I can see that you're confusing church (the building/denominations) with Church (The SAINTS).
Bible as we have it, is a book which serves as A GUIDANCE for Christians NOT a certificate for salvation unto eternal life.

To your question "Are you saying neither the Bible nor the Church can help us WORSHIP God in spirit and in truth"?

Either Bible or church(I'll take this as a building or denomination) can help us WORSHIP God in truth and in spirit depending on how you read the books and the doctrine you follow.

The revelation of God in human history recorded by some men came before the Church (the act of believing in Christ's finished work by people) though this work has been for ordained before the foundation of the world BUT the CHURCH of Christ came before the compilation of the Christian Bible.


NOTE: I'm not arguing with you but I am a fallible and finite being trying to discern the mind of an infallible and infinite mind of sovereign God.

Remain Bless in CHRIST Jesus who is coming for His church not denominations.