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I don't want to reply this post initially because it's disjointed and in no way address my post you quoted BUT I ONLY REPLY YOU because of this one.

Abdulsalam20: I SAID GOD NEVER BEGOT YOU DIDNT AGREE


the authors of the revised standard version bible comprising of 50 emminent scholars has declared that the word BEGOTTEN in john 3:16 IS A FABRICATION and it is not part of the bible
meaning of begotten: (especially of a man) bring (a child) into existence by
the process of reproduction.
evidence;
John 3:16 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

For God so loved the world that he gave his only
Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish
but have eternal life. "

this has clearly mean Jesus is not son of GOD

First lie in this statement is that the author brought false accusation against RSV. The RSV never said the word BEGOTTEN is a fabricated word BUT that King James didn't render the word where begotten was translated from well. (remember it also applied to Qur'an where the word Yusuf Ali render might different from how Pickthall, Shakir rendered it NOT THAT IT DIDN'T APPEAR IN THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT)

The word that King James rendered as "Only BEGOTTEN" is monogenes this word can mean sole descent, Only of its kind, Unique e.t.c

What the compiler of King James does might be the underlined phrase by putting more emphasis on 'OF ITS KIND' not that God father Jesus through intercourse even if CHRISTIANS are reading KJV and as BEGOTTEN they don't believe that it means intercourse between God and Mary.

As another author can make the same claim against RSV for only using the phrase "ONLY SON" which the word MONOGENES can be rendered more than that.
Like NIV you quoted and believe rendered the word monogenes as "ONE AND ONLY" or another versions AMP inserted the word "UNIQUE" in a bracket after BEGOTTEN, Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) "ONE AND ONLY", ESV "ONLY AND UNIQUE" WHEREAS SOME OTHER TRANSLATIONS STILL RENDERED IT AS "ONLY BEGOTTEN" Darby, YLT e.t.c

Lastly, you conclusion makes me laugh because after the version you solely rely on because of 50 eminent scholars still says that ONLY SON yet can still conclude that "this has clearly mean Jesus is not son of God"

So who is RSV referring to in that verse as ONLY SON?


Disclaimer: KJV didn't fabricate the word BEGOTTEN but rendered the Greek word monogenes as ONLY BEGOTTEN whereas other chose another meaning for it.



Shalom!

Rilwayne001:
Seems you are also clueless on my first post on this thread

As you are, no wonder you always strike people's post.

Okay now, you can't prove to us that Jesus is God with your bible and you want to prove that he is God with the Quran

I don't need to use Bible to prove Jesus' deity because merely reading it yourself without anybody's help is enough THAT'S WHY MUSLIMS CAN SAY BIBLE HAS BEEN CORRUPTED simply because of the abundant evidence of His deity.

I didn't use Qur'an to prove Jesus' divinity BUT TO EXPOSE WHAT YOU DENY that Jesus isn't the word and the spirit of God whereas Qur'an, Muhammad and his companions didn't deny it.

hmmmmm...ridiculous.
Until you address my first post on this thread, there is no going forward.

Escapetism

Am still coming back to your hogwash but before then,lets start afresh.

Now let me have time for you BUT BEFORE I DO THAT you must swallow up those caustics word in your post if not I won't address it because it shows that you lack decency in a public forum.

Rilwayne001:
Mr. Emusan

Why don't you just start from my post on the first page instead of jumping to page (1). The OP did not address it likewise malvisguy

Please let us start from there.

thank u

Does it matter where I started from or the issue at hand?

Does it going to change the fact that you said Gabriel is the one that blew Jesus' soul into Mary, whereas only Allah possesses LIFE?

Does it going to change the fact Gabriel is another God beside Allah if Gabriel actually did breath the soul into Mary?

Unlike other people I read the Op and everyone's comment before I came across your post, so what I need to do is to expose the implications your comment raised against Islamic teaching.

I'll give you another chance to decide now,

Who breath the soul of Jesus into Mary, Allah or Gabriel?

Muhammad believed that Jesus is the word and the Spirit of God and you today's Muslims say Jesus is only a word and a spirit (which simply means a created soul by Allah as you earlier said), who is now lying?

dp

Abdulsalam20:
if because jesus is called son oF GOD he s GOD then i should be GOD ALSO
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Clap for yourself you're Allah and don't forget that you're a SLAVE not A CHILD.

if because jesus said god is his fater he also said god is [b]my father also
john 20;17
'I am ascending to my
Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Yet no Muslim should call God His Father because Allah doesn't beget.

Jesus is a son of man: dont deeive your self

The New Testament makes it very clear that
Jesus is the son of man:
Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and
the birds of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not
where to lay [his] head.
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power
on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,)
Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the
Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and
be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be
slain, and be raised the third day.
Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment
also, because he is the Son of man.

Yet you can call yourself son of God, or God because of those verses you quoted above then you now confused again that Jesus is Son of Man.

Did Christian ever tell you they don't know that Jesus is a son of man?

he is a prophet of god sent to us

That makes you a prophet too

i dont know why christians are so funny if beause he is born by a virgin then adam should be a greater god coz he has no father and as no mother[/b]

You're the funny one.
Mind you Christians don't claim that the virgin birth makes Jesus the Son of God BUT as The Son of God who co-exists with the Father before creation MUST BE BORN IN SUCH SUPERNATURAL PROCESS to make Him free from Adam's sin.

What you miss is that Adam must be created without father or mother being the first human the same thing hold for Eve that's why Bible can call them son of God IN CASE OF JESUS the question to ask is, why would God override His own law of reproduction after He has put into action the reproduction system of man to PERSONALLY INTERVENE in man's affair?

Oga Rilwayne001 you’ve done it again as usual, keep deceiving yourself and the like of you.

Rilwayne001: You did'nt answer my question
The simple question i asked was that was Jesus refering to himself in Mark as ONE AND ONLY LORD

And you called this question

I will answer your question here, i just hope you would answer mine as well.

Did you know how your explanation creates a huge problem for Islamic teaching?

Let me educate you on this issue once and for all, i just hope you are able to grab it cus you are just too dull.

When you haven't educate yourself.

“Word” of God
Islam provides a clear explanation of how Jesus was a “Word” from God but first the process of human procreation must be understood the Might of God is behind everything. [size=14pt]Whenever God decides to do something, like giving life or causing death,[/size] He says the word “Be” and it happens,

Quran 40:68 “It is He who gives life and causes death; and when He decrees a matter, He but says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.”

Actually, what most modern day Muslims say is that Jesus is a Word from God (Kalimat-Minhu), but one can ask, is it how Muhammad and his companions understood these verses? The answer is NO!

@bold-You said ”Whenever God decides to do something, like giving life or causing death, He says to it ‘Be’ and it is! BUT this contradicts below statement.

The first step in human procreation is the biological union between male and female reproductive cells in addition to the will of God. Since Jesus was born without a father, he was not conceived by the male sperm cells.

You know this and you can’t simply ask yourself, why was it necessary for Christ to be conceived in such supernatural fashion, when God had already put into motion the natural reproductive cycle of human birth? Why did God override his own laws of sexual reproduction and intervene personally by causing Jesus to be born from a virgin?

Hence, Christians do not believe that the virgin birth makes Jesus the Son of God. Rather, they believe that because Jesus is the Son of God he had to be born of a virgin.

Instead his creation, similar to Adam, is solely attributed to the Word of God, ‘Be.’ God says.

Even though Quran says so, BUT why is it that nowhere in the Quran, or Hadith for that matter Adam ever called ‘Word from God’? I challenge you to give us JUST one verse from Quran, or Hadith where Adam was called ‘word from Allah’

Quran 3:59 “Indeed the likeness of Jesus to God as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was.”

Problem with this verse is that Allah created Adam FIRST FROM DUST which means Adam’s body was first formed BEFORE said to him ‘Be’, that implies Allah only impact life in Adam’s lifeless body YET in your below explanation you said Angel Jibril brought the soul of Jesus to Mary, are they similar?

The Quran gives details of Jesus’ conception. Mary was not impregnated by a man. Angel Gabriel, referred to in the Quran as the Spirit, brought the soul of Jesus – [size=14pt]his soul was created by God like other human souls – to breathe it into Mary.[/size] On seeing the angel, she expressed with surprise,

@underline-I challenge you to give us a SINGLE VERSE in the Quran where it was written that Gabriel is the Spirit

@bold-So you agree that Gabriel can impart life like Allah does? because you said Gabriel brought the SOUL of Jesus...to BREATH it into Mary. But remember ONLY Allah can give life.
This is where you contradict yourself.
Since you said ’JUST LIKE other human souls..’, are Rilwayne001and all Muslims a word from God?

Quran 3:47 “‘My Lord,’ said Mary, how shall I have a son when no man has ever touched me?”
The angel answered,
Quran 3:47 “Thus it is: God creates what He wills: When he decrees a matter, [size=14pt]He only says to it: ‘Be,’ and it is.”[/size]

YET in the above and below explanations it is Gabriel that finally makes the decree NOT Allah.

[size=14pt]Gabriel then blew the soul of Jesus into Mary,[/size] “so We blew into it (her womb) through Our angel.” (Quran 66:12)

Waoooo! This is where we are going, you said it is Gabriel that blew the SOUL which then makes Gabriel a being that possesses LIFE within himself. You may argue that Allah only permitted it BUT that makes Allah weak because it’s a thing Allah supposed to do without even send Gabriel JUST as Bible explained it ”The Holy Spirit will come upon you(Mary)...”[/u] can you see the difference? The Angel simply told Mary God will do it HIMSELF not him.

In essence, Jesus is God’s ‘Word’ because he came into existence by God’s Word - ‘Be’ - as the Quran describes in another passage,

No! He came into existence by Gabriel’s word NOT Allah according to you.
Then how can God’s word be translated as created SOUL as you did in above?

[b]“His word (Kalimatuhu) which He conveyed unto Mary...” (Quran 4:171)

Kalimatuhu refers to God's very own personal word, this is the very word Muslims hold for Quran itself then how can Jesus be just a word from God?

“Spirit” from God
The Quran describes Jesus to be [size=14pt]a ‘Spirit’ proceeding from God:[/size]
“We breathed into her (Mary) from My Spirit.”(Quran 21:91)
“…a Spirit created by Him.”(Quran 4:171)
“We blew into (her womb) through Our angel.”(Quran 66:12)
[size=14pt]Jesus was a spirit, or more correctly, a soul created by God,[/size] brought by Gabriel, a mighty angel of God, and breathed into Mary:

You only say Jesus is a spirit from God whereas Muhammad and some Muslims scholars believe that Jesus is The Spirit of God.

By comparing the two bolded statements to each other one can see how perverted you are.
How can “a spirit proceeding from God” be translated “a soul created by God”? It’s very clear you know the truth but you just want to bend it.

“We blew into (her womb from her garment) through Our angel.” (Quran 66:12)

Another time you agree that Gabriel is an agent of LIFE.

Jesus was not a ‘part,’ ‘person,’ or ‘activity’ of God that separated and dwelled inside Mary. He is called a ‘Spirit’ from God as a symbol of respect and honor, not divinity.

Imaging, what is honor and respect about this when you earlier said ”that more correctly ‘a soul created by God’” which will also make ALL HUMAN a spirit proceeding from God as you earlier stated ” his soul was created by God like other human souls”?

Likewise, God also gives Adam this characteristic of being His spirit. God said when He ordered the angels to prostrate to Adam upon his creation.:
Surah Sad, Verse 72:
And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, then fall down before him prostrate,
(English - Pickthlal)

If you read the beginning of this verse with this phrase ”And when I have fashioned him...” we can then say Adam’s body was first created before LIFE was imparted into the body through the Spirit this is plausible But compare it with the account of Jesus where The Spirit incarnated/become a being in Mary’s womb that’s why Muhammad and some Muslims could call Jesus the very own Word and Spirit of God.

Muslims who called Jesus The Word and The Spirit of God.

1) Muhammad:
According to Anas, the Prophet said,...”Then he arranges for them to approach Jesus, the worshipper of God and His messenger, the Word of God and the Spirit of God. But Jesus will say to them,”... (Bukhari, Mishkat al-Masabih, Book 23, chp.12)

2) Ibn Arabi's statement is perhaps the closest acknowledgement any Muslim has ever made in relation to Jesus' Deity: "Surely," he said, "He has no equal. He is the Spirit and the Son of the Spirit, and Mary is His mother." (Quoted by Robert Payne in The History of Islam, p.83)

When we keep in mind that God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and Christ is the Spirit and the Spirit's Son, this makes Christ God, the Son of God!

3) M. A. Qazi in his Concise Dictionary of Islamic Terms, p. 57, relates:
"Ruh-Ullah – Spirit of God, A special title given by Prophet Muhammad (S. A.) to Jesus (A. A.)"

4) Mahmoud Ayoub, citing Tabarsi states: “Tabarsi argues that John was obligated by God to be a witness to the fact that Jesus was in truth the word of God and His Spirit” (2:109)

5) Muhammad Ayub's book, The Quran and Its Interpreters, vol. II. The House of Imran:
Tabari, an Islamic scholar quotes on the authority of Al-Suddi a debate between the Christians of Najran and Muhammad in which Muhammad was asked what he thought of Jesus, to which he answered: "He is the servant of God, His Spirit and Word." (p.184)

6) Dr. Hasbullah Bakry in his book Nabi Isa dalam Al-Quran ("Jesus the Prophet in The Quran" p.109 declares: "The Prophet Jesus is called 'Kalimatu Allah' (the word of God) because he is the incarnation of the word of God which was signaled to Mary to bear the Prophet Jesus."

Bakry’s statement agreed with the book of John 1:14 ”And The Word became flesh...”

The reason why you’re arguing this way is because of the perverted teaching of modern day scholars who have aware of the obvious problem this Titles posed to Quran in denial of Jesus’ divinity. Why? If Jesus is The word and Spirit of God and both Islam and Christian believe that God’s Spirit and Word are not created that makes Jesus uncreated and divine, so what they could do is to bring another false interpretation into those texts which someone like you can swallow up.

If Muhammad himself believed that Jesus is the word and the Spirit of God then who is wrong between two of you?

[quote author=BERNIMOORE post=/post/26783637]logically according to your Gay pastor paulgrundy

i am not a jehovahs witness ok?[/quote]Mind you I didn't say you're a JW because Yooguz says so but because what I've seen through your post that's why I said 'logically', remember you've even challenged me to bring any thing I feel JW misrepresented in the scripture.

alright go and hug transformer as a punishment hug it tight! blockhead

And you think you're funny with this

Abdulsalam20:
Mathew 7:21-24
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; [b]but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore
whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock”[/b]
this vere above is full of lesson for you
Jesus Christ never worshipped himself,

You always display your ignorance.
How do those verses you quoted compliment your statement?
And did Christian ever claim that Jesus worshipped Himself?
@underline-what is the will of God?

You think it's like Allah who can pray and praise himself but what will Muslims say? Allah's prayer and praise have another meaning.

but rather he
worshipped God and instructed men to worship Him alone.
He said in Luke 4:8 that: “For it is written, Thou shalt worship
the Lord thy God, and him only shalt you serve.” (Mathew
4:10) Mark 12:29 reads: “And Jesus answered him, The first
of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God
is one Lord” See also Deut. 4:35 which says “the LORD he is
God; there is THERE IS NONE BESIDE HIM.”
Exodus 34:14 says: “For thou shalt worship no other god: for
the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God”.

Then after Jesus made it clear this way, why does He receive worship Himself?

PAUL DON FINISH YOU PEOPLE PAUL TEACHING CONTRADICTING JESUS TEACHING..

Whereas Paul teaching surpasses Allah's own message.

paulGrundy: This is bernimore's truthislight handle giving credence to all watchtower beliefs in his diary, only a witness can do that
__________________________________
Re: REFERENCE by truthislight: 9:42am On Oct 07, 2013
Ok, if this is their beliefs, i dont and cant find anything that is wrong with it biblically speaking



https://www.nairaland.com/1462864/man-shoots-jehovah-witnesses-visiting/7#18632330
(Quote) (Report) (Like) (Share)

__________________________________

Besides that Bernimore is well known for supporting Jw ideology in this forum, ask Emusan and Bidam

Check out how he trolls anti-jw's in thread, in my opinion only a JW can do that.

https://www.nairaland.com/1876439/17-top-facts-u-probably/4#25885370
__________________________________

Logically, Bernimore is a JW nothing more nothing less. Though he claimed he's not.

Anyone reading my post and compare it with yours can see that you didn’t refute my points rather you attacked a straw man.
Though, you try small.

lanrexlan: As beautifully put your explanation is, [size=14pt]it applied to humans as you rightly opined.[/size]

Then it means that Allah doesn’t have principle.
The purpose of comparing YAHWEH and Allah in my post is because of this so that you can see that what YHWH can’t do, He will never allow any of His creature do.

As I explained to you the other time that the same word can be used for humans and Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala [size=14pt]but doesn't basically mean the same thing.[/size]

I’m still demanding for dictionaries that support this you claim that a word may have special meaning for one person.

Worship of other than Allah is prohibited, swearing an oath on other than Allah bears the same ruling. Due to the common thread between the two, the Prophet (pbuh) unified associating partners to Allah and swearing a false oath in a single sentence.
Imam Bukhari reports on the authority of Abdullah ibn Amr’ that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “Major sins include associating partners to Allah, disobeying ones parents and the swearing of false oaths.”

Who prohibit them? Allah! Then Allah can’t allow his creature to elevate any objects to his level BUT Allah himself can do so just because he’s God.

This shows a clear DIFFERENCE between YHWH and Allah because Yahweh doesn’t act just because He’s the Creator BUT always make sure that whatever He does and says His creatures also do and practice.
YHWH can never swear outside of Himself Hebrew 6:13, likewise commands man not to swear by any objects either in heavens or on earth beside Him. Isaiah 65:16.
YHWH is holy and can’t defile Himself; likewise wants man to be Holy 1 Peter 1:16.
YHWH can’t lie Heb 6:18, Titus 1:2, likewise doesn’t want man to lie Colossians 3:9

So can you see the true reality that the God who spoke through all the prophets in the Bible is totally different from the one who inspired Muhammad?
In case of Allah, he can command his creature to do the right thing but act as he wants.

The oath by Allah is only for emphasis, attention and approval. Oath brings emphasis to the matter but oath itself is not the point of emphasis.

You can swallow this shit up just because you want to defend the writer of Qu’ran BUT the truth will always remain truth which means Oath has no other meaning than to bear us witness (which you later said below) and people like Yusuf Ali and Muhammad Asab use this phrase throughout their translation ’I’ or ‘I do’ call to witness. Does call to witness the same as emphasis, attention and approval?

For example when Allah says in the Qur’an By the time Indeed, mankind is in loss. Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience
The emphasis is on the loss of mankind and the ways to counter that loss instead of “the time”.
Furthermore,in
the Qur’an after oaths are made evidences are presented and signs are mentioned.
The Qu'ran again says:By the dawn.And (by) ten nights.And (by) the even (number) and the odd.And (by) the night when it passes.Is there (not) in (all) that an oath (sufficient) for one of perception?[Surah Al-Fajr 89:1-5]

No indications that Allah is swearing here when reading Yusuf Ali translation which put it as evidence (adjuration) not oath as others inserted.
In this case you never addressed all the verses I quoted but you brought your own verses which are out of the issue at hand.

Yes, The starting of a sentence with an oath attracts the attention of the listener The listener becomes attentive that something important is going to be mentioned.

Lie. Oath is a called to a witness for affirmation of our say. I can’t tell you I’m making an oath to draw your attention rather I can only make an oath to make you have confident in what I’m saying.

Anything of his creatures [size=14pt]he feels,[/size] to Him belongs His Dominion.

@bold-that’s not how Yahweh behaves.
Even including inanimate objects that don’t have soul to bear witness

Why not? [size=14pt]Allah is summoning these creations to
Witness what is about to be said.[/size] The sole purpose
is to show mankind the [size=14pt]submission and humbleness of these creations far greater than them,[/size] so what stops them from submitting? These creations readily stand witness and accept the words of Allah. (Kashful Baari 2/515)

In fact you hit the nail on the head @bold just as Yusuf Ali uses ’call to witness’ throughout his translation.
But the question is can inanimate object witness to man?
Do you mean all the inanimate objects used by Allah are submitting and humble themselves?
How can inanimate be submissive and humble when it doesn’t possess MIND of reasoning?

Abul Qasim said,“The taking of oath on any entity
is primarily due to two reasons:either its virtue or
its benefit.” For example, Allah takes an oath upon
Mount Sinai,this is solely dues its virtue and merit.
Whereas the oath on the fig and olive is principally
due to the immense benefit it extends.Brother Tbaba1234 did a very good job in explaining the Tafsir of Surah At-Tin which contains oaths here. HYPERLINK "https://www.nairaland.com/972776/amazing-quran-season-1[/quote" www.nairaland.com/972776/amazing-quran-season-1

Whereas human can’t take an oath on these entities for their virtue and benefit only Allah can do, does it make any sense?
There is a further problem with Allah swearing by things other than himself. Swearing by something that is less than myself, I am actually weakening the value of my statement. An oath is supposed to increase the weight or seriousness of what I say, but if I swear by something less than myself, I am decreasing the weight of my claim.

According to Imam Ibn al-Qayyim, oaths taken by Allah have only one base and that is the ‘attributes of Allah’. When Allah takes the oath of ‘the star when it descends’ or of ‘Al-Tariq (the Knocker)’ or any other creation of His, the base behind them is the greatness of Allah.

The greatness of Allah as usual, did you know that the reason why we shouldn’t swear by any other thing along side of God is because we are elevating those objects to the level of deity? Something that can’t bear us witness and it’s only God who can bear man witness because God it’s self existence and can’t destroy Himself whereas all those objects can be destroyed.

Therefore it is evident that when Allah takes an oath of something, He does so of His own greatness and not of the created thing.

Nothing is great here brother rather it portrays Allah as an entity who has no principle and totally DIFFERENT from the God of all prophets (YHWH).

Similarly,when Allah takes an oath of the sun or the moon,for example He mentions them as His signs in the Qur’an:
Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding[Qur’an 3:190].

Yet no single example in the Bible where Yahweh did the same thing, or the moon and the sun was created after Bible was written?

By the sun and its brightness.And [by] the moon when it follows it[Qur’an 91:1-2]
. … He wrapped the night over the day that follows it quickly.The sun, the moon and the stars have all been tamed by His command… [Qur’an 7:54].
Allah mentions some of His created things as evidence of His existence and of monotheism and asks the readers of the Qur’an to ponder over these signs from Him. [size=14pt]Then, when Allah takes an oath of these created things, He is simply taking an oath of Himself, His qualities, and His greatness.[/size]

@last underline-Since it infers that if Allah is taking an oath by what he created means ”He is simply taking an oath of Himself, His qualities, and His greatness.” Then,
[size=14pt]why is it prohibited by Allah for human not to use any created thing in oath so far it’s still the same Allah’s qualities and greatness or himself they will refer to?[/size]
Please don’t dodge this question!

You only try to address one out of other points I raised which is Allah swears by his creature while you neglected the rest.

Point One:
And I swear by thy Lord, we will surely gather together them and the Satans: then will we set them on their knees round Hell: S. 19:68 Rodwell
By the Lord then of the heaven and of the earth, I swear that this is the truth, even as ye speak yourselves. S. 51:23 Rodwell
But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly able S. 70:40
In all these verses we can see Allah swearing by ANOTHER ENTITY, so who is THE LORD that Allah sworn by in these verses?

Second points (i.e Surah 56:75):
We can see from my post how Muslims English translators contradict themselves, is it that;
1 those verses never say Allah truly sworn by those objects as people like Muhammad Sarwar, Palmer and Rodwell translated them?
i.e I do not need to swear by the setting of the stars. Muhammad Sarwar
So I will not swear by the positions of the stars; Palmer
It needs not that I swear by the setting of the stars, Rodwell. OR

2 those objects in question mean something else with insertion of NAY as people like Pickthall, Shakir, Arberry, and Sher Ali translated them?
i.e Nay, I swear by the places of the stars – Pickthall
But nay! I swear by the falling of stars; Shakir
Nay, I cite as proof the shooting of the stars – Sher Ali
No! I swear by the fallings of the stars Arberry. OR

3 Allah truly did swear with those objects as people like Khalifa, Dawood, and Sale translated them? (Although from your reply it seems that this one is what you agree with-that Allah truly sworn but it has another meaning)

BUT what cause this mass confusion in English Qu’ran?
How can a Muslim cope with different translations when one says Allah truly sworn and the other says Allah did not swear at all?
Which translation is the correct one and which one is incorrect?

lanrexlan: To you, your belief about me is wrong.

Obviously it’s not wrong because you affirmed it below.

I don't regard it as an error,

Just because Quran says so.
But I do believe that you can’t advise your child to write h/her letter in WAEC the way Quran was composed by Allah.

it's you and your mentors that do.

Yes because we know the RULES of grammatical composition like YAHWEY and also used by the writers of the Holy Bible.

Pure lies,your mentors are running away from an [size=14pt]open debate.[/size] All what they can do is to type their rubbish online. [size=14pt]Ali Sina wants 'an online debate' with Dr. Zakir Naik,[/size] Imagine that, afraid of defeat,he knew he can easily manipulate his ways online,which is impossible in open debate because reasonable audience are present.There are just crooks who just post garbage online for peers like you.They are living ghosts.

At the bolds- The astonish part is the accusation you raised against this people that they’re running away from open debate which might be as a result of what you read on Naik’s site too but check this link and see whether your accusation is genuine.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/ZakirNaik.htm

Shut it for once brother,one thing I hate is when people try to claim knowledge on a particular topic whereas they have no knowledge in that topic.What did you about Balagha in arabic? Stop displaying your ignorance, you have no knowledge whatsoever about arabic as a language

I can’t stop laughing, so you who know Arabic very well what is your stand? Were you not the one who is consulting different Arabic words yet those words conflict your own claim?
You agree that Allah did pray but the meaning of prayer in Allah’s statement must has different meaning without any concrete support but just to explain away the problem of Allah being prayed.

Thanks for saying that.

You’re welcome!

Both were dead before being brought back to life, Jonah(pbuh) was alive in the belly of whale for 3days and 3nights.It's survival and not revival as the cases you mentioned.

See where your problem lies, you think I’m contrasting between miracles whereas I’m only telling you that God continues to do miracle wherever human power fails. So the miracles God performed in the past can still happen today.

To you it's ordinary communication and grammatical error.But to muslims, there’s nothing confusing about it.

Of course we’re still saying the same thing just because you read it in Quran so you don’t have problem with it even though it’s grammatically incorrect.

It's a miracle because the arabs till now failed to produce a recitation like the Qu'ran.

Yet this miracle can be fully comprehended by us today, WHAT THEN MAKES IT MIRACLE if it can be fully explained and understood?
Of course there’re many writing poetic in Arabic but no one was composed the way Quran was composed because an intelligent person and Creator can’t write in that manner. It doesn’t behove the Majesty to make such gross error.

During the time of the Prophet(pbuh),the Arabs were at their peak of their literature and yet never met the challenge of the Qu'ran which was to produce a single verse like that of the Qu'ran.

How can they produce an error when everybody knows the rules that govern grammatical composition except Allah and Muslims? No wonder they say only miracle that Quran has is that an intelligent people still believe in it.

Your christian brothers few years back produce some junks in English which was no way near the Qu'ran.

What is the name of the book?

That makes it a miracle since nobody till now can produce a recitation like it.

You keep clamouring on this but failed to use your head that people can’t write the way Quran was written simply because it contains grammatical error. No intelligent man can compose error.

I think it will be good to use your brain,

Use yours first.

I never throw insults on personalities whom you held in high esteem.

Pardon me on that.

If you can't show respect regarding Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala,then

Do you know Allah? I'm sorry, I can't have respect for what possessed Muhammad which I'm trying to let you see.

I have no choice than to unfollow your thread.Will soon unfollow.

As usual, must you unfollow?

You keep contradicting yourself. You said grammatical shift is pure grammatical error and at the same time people are doing what you claimed to be error though it may not the way Qu'ran uses it.

I see lack of simple comprehension here.
I said “Many ancient and Modern days’ writers used many form of PROSE in their work without supernatural intervention which Quran also used” and I asked a question “what make Quran a miracle since people used the same term we found in Quran even before Muhammad was born?”

And I conclude my statement with “Though many ancient and modern days’ writers used a lot of different types of Rhetorical device in their work BUT NONE of them ever use GRAMMATICAL SHIFT”
(NOTE: The grammatical shift that the Arabians try to force into rhetorical device it’s just their OWN formatting, it NEVER supported by any linguistic scholars.)

I don't know where I said people are doing it, what I simply said was that No one seems to quote references to support [size=14pt]Itlifat (grammatical shift) except from the Qu'ran,[/size] not even a single reference from Hadith.That's to say, only the [size=14pt]Qu'ran serves as a reference book for Itlifat[/size] and that makes it unique.Is it hard to comprehend?

I quite understood you but it’s you who couldn’t understand me.
@bolds-People who wrote Hadith know about grammatical rules and very intelligent that’s why they don’t want to make the same mistake that appears in the Quran so they simply follow the rules of grammatical structure and thank God that you admitted that it’s ONLY Quran this grammatical shift can be found and the Arabian ONLY did it (i.e to explain this obvious grammatical error) in their OWN OPINION don’t forget according to your source.

What's this one saying? [size=14pt]Is Bible Injeel or Taurah?[/size] I don't have time for flogging dead horse anymore.

Very funny this is what Muslims always say YET they still believe that the same Bible which is not Injeel or Taurah contains the prophesy of Muhammad. confuse fellow

Asking me? Ask yourself.

No! I’m asking myself....when you left your brain somewhere while reading.

Himself,Exalted and Glorified. The shift signifies two things:the principle of tawhīd(Oneness of Allah) and the multiplicity of viewpoints observed in Arabic.Here is an example in which Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is being referred to as Allāh or rabb,a shift from first person(We) to third person and this emphasizes on tawhīd and shows multiplicity of viewpoints.The Qu'ran says Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you and render thanks to Allāh if it is He whom you worship'(2:172)So it signifies that only Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala provides the different types of good things for mankind,he's the provider which has the power of providing for his slaves.Then continue to say 'Give thanks to Allah',which signifies that all forms of praises and adorations should directed to Allah[Part of Tawhid(oneness of Allah)].

Another explanation for Miracle, again why call it miracle since human can fully understand how it was constructed?
Anyhow you want to put it this still remains grammatical error forever.
Let’s see if we use the normal style of writing whether the same Oneness can still be achieved
Eat of the good things wherewith I have provided you and render thanks to ME if it is ME whom you worship'(2:172)

What is the difference? An intelligent reader can read this narration in a clear and understandable manner because the perfect pronouns were used and it doesn’t change the NARRATOR’s point.

Whereas the former mixed everything together used Third person pronoun (Allah, He) and personal plural pronoun (We) while referring to the same person.

It will be good if you truly understand before copying and pasting.

Don’t worry I know what you can do is to give it a special meaning as usual.

Your problem, if with those explanations you failed to comprehend then there's nothing I can do.I am sorry bro.

My problem or yours! Please do you encourage your child to use Qu’ranic system of writing in school?

Stop using rubbish in explaining anything here.'It' is used for non-living,inanimate objects,animals or plants.You keep using 'it' for Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala which ought not to be so and I corrected you and you keep spewing trash saying the prediction in John used 'He' or whatever.

I’ve made my intention known but it seems you want us to explore more on this.
Not that it can be used ONLY for non-living, inanimate objects, animals or plants. It can also be used for an animate (living) entity of unknown gender.
To Muslims Allah is neither a person, spirit, male nor female.
Though you claim that He should be used for Allah meanwhile He can be used for a PERSON whose gender is unknown.
(NOTE: whatever person can be classified...Muslims never believe Allah is a person)

So which pronoun is best fit for Allah?
Lastly, you didn’t correct me you can check my previous post with any of your brethren I always use He for Allah but I chose to use It because of you people whole think Bible was tampered with in rendering of Holy Spirit in John and YOU have made such claim before and I don’t know maybe you’re still confused with it up till now.

You keep dodging the question,

I didn’t dodge your question but I did enough justice to it by quoting the full verses and highlighted the necessary part but it’s shameful that you couldn’t catch it up.

I never talked about God's voice the angel can appeared to Moses(pbuh) and Moses(pbuh) can hear God's voice it's possible(cos it's a voice),

It can only be possible in Quran not in the Bible.
Why would Angel appear without having any message to deliver? After all we have many instances in the Bible where God speaks directly from heaven without any appearance of an entity.

[size=14pt]but the angel of the Lord appeared to Moses(pbuh) in the beginning and towards the end Moses(pbuh) was afraid to look at God's face,[/size] Is God's face and angel's face the same? That's the question.

The bold and underline part is where your problem lies.
Let me come to your level this time around.
The Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses.
The Angel of the Lord IDENTIFIES himself as God.
The Angel of the Lord called himself The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (which you erroneously said the Angel never called himself YAHWEH before)
The Angel didn’t speak in the THIRD PERSON voice RATHER He speaks directly as GOD so after the conversation what did Moses do, Moses was afraid to look at God’s face.

What you failed to notice in these verses is that The Angel never used THIRD person voice and the only VOICE which is the Angel’s simply called himself God.
So what did you expect Moses to call the Angel after the Angel called himself God?

Deduce from your post yourself.You haven't heard about deductive reasoning?

You talk about deductive reasoning but it’s unfortunate that you couldn’t apply it yourself. I alluded to Jesus’ prayer as an example NOT that I said PRAYER and WORSHIP are the same.
The reason why I use it as an example is because both PRAYER and PRAISE are directed toward a deity, so it’s illogical to find a deity PRAY to or PRAISE himself.

Let me explain what you don't understand to you.

I don’t understand or you want to continue living in lies.

The same word is being used for Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala and humans [size=14pt]but means entirely different thing.[/size]

Why must it have a different meaning on Allah’s part?
Can you show us from any Arabic dictionary where salat has a specific meaning for Allah alone?
Muhammad and his companions took those verses as literal NOT THE WAY MODERN MUSLIMS try to bend the truth because of the glaring mistake within those verses.

For example,Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala says he sends Salat on the Prophet(pbuh) and Salat has been enjoined on humans by Allah.Does that means Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala also prays like humans pray(bowing,prostating etc) for the Prophet(pbuh)? NO,

Allah doesn’t need to bow and prostrate before we call it prayer, Prayer can come in many forms.

See how this Islamic source put it Allah's Salah means that HE PRAISES HIS SERVANT BEFORE THE ANGELS,...” source: HYPERLINK "http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=33&tid=41879" http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=33&tid=41879 Q33:34
Can you still remember what PRAISE means?
So it is very glaring that the PRAYER of Allah entails glorifications of someone else particularly his servant such as Muhammad.

SubhanAllah!!!!!!! Allah says in Surah Al-Anam 6:12 Say:To whom belongs all that is in the heaven and the earth? Say: To Allah,He has indeed prescribed mercy for himself..................So does it means Allah will show mercy to himself?

This is one of internal problem we keep finding inside Qu’ran, how can a Creator prescribe mercy for himself?
Well people like you will give it another meaning because you want to justify the writer of Quran BUT the honest question someone can ask here is why the statement didn’t read directly the way you rendered it or does Allah speak in parable?

SubhanAllah!!!! It simply means Allah will show mercy to his creatures, the same way meaning that whenever Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala says 'All praises be to Allah' it means Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is instructing mankind

So you know more than Allah. Why Allah didn’t say “I will show mercy to My creatures.”
I know this is just your own fictions to give it more meaning BUT not the actual meaning of it.
Allah shows mercy to his creature BUT why Allah couldn’t say it in a straight manner? We see in the Bible where God gives such a similar statement “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Rom 9:15 this provided more evidence that Allah and YHWH are different.

Since the Hadith recorded that Allah also RECITES some verses, it shouldn’t be a surprise that Allah can prescribe mercy for himself or praises himself.

Narrated AbuHurayrah
Allah's Messenger said, "A thousand years before creating the heavens and the Earth, Allah RECITED Ta-Ha and Ya-Sin, and when the angels HEARD the recitation they said, 'Happy are the people to whom this comes down, happy are the minds which carry this, and happy are the tongues which utter this.” Darimi transmitted it (At-Tirmidhi Hadith, HYPERLINK "http://www.alim.org/library/hadith/TIR/660" \o "Opens external link in new window" Number 660 – taken from ALIM CD-ROM Version; bold and capital emphasis mine)

Even though this Hadith contains logical error and contradict another hadith (i.e Angels exist before the creation of heavens whereas another haidth says heavens was created before Angels)
YET we can see this hadith reporting that Allah actually recites some SURA. I know another thing you will come up with is that RECITATION here have another meaning just because it’s used for Allah BUT you can see the underline that says “...and happy are the tongues which utter this...” which means they will utter it the way Allah uttered it.

You are not making any atom of sense mister.

To you of course after I deflated your Hamd explanation!

Stop lying,I haven't mentioned worship before in my first post here.You initially accused me of agreeing that praise is part of worship which I never did in my first post.

Why can’t you apologise for accusing me that I said PRAISE and WORSHIP are the same when I didn’t say so?
You never did! but remember by using deductive reasoning, if Allah prayed, glorified, exalted himself in other word Allah is praising himself which you earlier agree with AND PRAISE is PART of worship then it means Allah is doing a kind of worship.

I know you don’t want to buy the idea that PRAISE is part of worship that’s why you used “MAY BE in your previous post” but the truth is PRAISE is actually a form of worship you can check any dictionary even Arabic

lanrexlan: Let me give you another example.The Qu'ran says in Surah Al-Qiyamah 75:2 -No! I swear by the reproachful soul! What,does man reckon We shall not gather his bones? Yes indeed;We are able to shape again his fingers
The verse started with I swear(Singular) then shifts to We are able to shape again his fingers(Plural).So why this sudden change?
It is the singular that is fitting for 'I swear';the
sudden shift to the plural expresses,as it were,
multiplicity of power in answer to the pre-Islamic Arabs' incredulity at the idea of putting scattered bones together again at the resurrection.
The sudden shift recharges the concept of plural as a grammatical form with its full sense of majesty.
The Qur'ān uses the singular pronoun for God particularly in such contexts(like swear) as those expressing worship (O my slaves),prohibition of shirk and wrath;the use of the singular is clearly important in such contexts and when there is a sudden shift to the plural of majesty it sharpens the listener's sense of the contrast between the two grammatical forms,investing 'we' when it comes after 'I' with enhanced meaning.

Back to Allah swear.

Before I proceed any further I'll like to address the issue of why people swear at all, why do persons swear by appealing to God?
The purpose for swearing by God, or in God’s name, is to call him as our witness and the judge of our honesty and sincerity in what we are saying.

The implication is that if I am lying, or if I am not keeping my word, then God may hold me accountable and punish me. I.e. this is attributing superhuman knowledge (knowing my thoughts and heart) and power (to punish) to the one I'm swearing by.

Thus, properly speaking only Deity can actually be appealed to for the guarantee of my intentions and thoughts.

Therefore it is blatant idolatry, or to introduce a different term, deification, to use the name of anything else besides God in swearing.

The questions that need a thoughtful respond are;
1) Does God need to swear?
2) If God can actually swear, what does it need to swear with?
3) Can God swear with what He Himself created?
4) Is it reasonable for God to be swearing by inanimate objects that can't hold Him account for His action?

If we can able to provide an accurate answer to these questions then our understanding about God will be right.

Comparisons between YAHWEH and ALLAH in taking OATH

YAHWEH:
"and said, ‘By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,’" Genesis 22:16

"I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow…" Isaiah 45:23

"The LORD has sworn by His right hand and by His strong arm, ‘I will never again give your grain as food for your enemies; Nor will foreigners drink your new wine for which you have labored.’" Isaiah 62:8

"I swear by Myself, says the LORD." Jeremiah 22:5

"But hear the word of the LORD, all Jews living in Egypt: ‘I swear by my great name,’ says the LORD, ‘that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear, "As surely as the Sovereign LORD lives."’" Jeremiah 44:26

In all these verses YAHWEH never swear by anything other outside Himself. This next one solidify everything;

"For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself." Hebrews 6:13

No where YAHWEH ever swear with an inanimate objects or anything He created and He also urged everybody not to swear by anything outside Himself because it's only Him who can bear us witness to whatever we do.

ALLAH:
Even though Allah didn't permit anyone to swear with anything other than himself BUT Allah failed to yield his own instruction.

Narrated 'Umar:
The Prophet said, "If anybody has to take an oath, he should swear ONLY by Allah." The people of Quraish used to swear by their fathers, but the Prophet said, "Do not swear by your fathers." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 177)

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle met 'Umar bin Al-Khattab while the latter was going with a group of camel-riders, and he was swearing by his father. The Prophet said, "Lo! Allah forbids you to swear by your fathers, so whoever has to take an oath, he should swear by Allah or keep quiet." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 78, Number 641-Bold & underline mine)

This instruction is well also in line with Biblical instruction in taking oath but did Allah follow his own instruction?

And I swear by thy Lord, we will surely gather together them and the Satans: then will we set them on their knees round Hell: S. 19:68 Rodwell

"[Abraham supposedly says] I swear by GOD, I have a plan to deal with your statues, as soon as you leave." S. 21:57 Khalifa

u]By the Lord then of the heaven and of the earth,[/u] I swear that this is the truth, even as ye speak yourselves. S. 51:23 Rodwell

But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly able S. 70:40

We can see Abraham following the instruction of Allah but who is the Lord that Allah sworn by?

Here are few verses where Allah sworn with what he supposed to create and inanimate objects.

I swear by the Book that makes manifest (the truth). S. 44:2

Qaf. I swear by the glorious Quran (that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah) S. 50:1

I swear by the wind that scatters far and wide, S. 51:1

I swear by the heaven full of ways. S. 51:7

I swear by the Mountain, S. 52:1

I swear by the star when it goes down. S. 53:1

But nay! I swear by the falling of stars; S. 56:75

Noon. I swear by the pen and what the angels write, S. 68:1

But nay! I swear by that which you see, S. 69:38

You may want to argue that Muhammad is one who actually repeating all this as being told by Allah then that means Muhammad contradicts himself or Allah deceived Muhammad by saying no one should swear with anything other than Allah.

To swear or not to swear, that is the question –
A Translation Problem in the Quran

In other to avoid this problem some English translations contradict themselves
Here is one example

Sura 56:75
Nay, I swear by the places of the stars – Pickthall

Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars, - Y. Ali

But nay! I swear by the falling of stars; Shakir

Nay, I cite as proof the shooting of the stars – Sher Ali

NAY, I call to witness the coming-down in parts [of this Quran] Muhammad Asad

I do not need to swear by the setting of the stars Muhammad Sarwar

I swear by the positions of the stars. Khalifa

No! I swear by the fallings of the stars Arberry

I swear by the shelter of the stars N.J. Dawood

So I will not swear by the positions of the stars; Palmer

It needs not that I swear by the setting of the stars, Rodwell

Moreover I swear by the setting of the stars; Sale

Rodwell, Palmer, and sarwar contradict the rest.

lanrexlan: To me it's not a problem,I perfectly understand the grammatical shifts,

That's is ignorant because pronoun shift remains grammatical error forever and I believe you know this but you only accept it just because it appeared in Quran.

you are the one that has a problem copying Sam Shaoun's article.

Now copying Sam is a problem, no wonder Muslims want his life terminated the way they are after Ali Sina's life.

What do you know about rhetoric devices in Arabic language? I am not talking about rhetorical questions here.

Nothing like rhetorical devices in Arabic language. Rhetorical devices is a method well known generally but the Arabians can only deceive people like you that Arabic has its own rhetorical devices.

Then I challenge you to give me another person that parted the red sea apart from Moses(pbuh).Then I challenge you to give me another person that survive 3days and 3nights in the belly of the fish apart from Jonah(pbuh).

You're attacking a straw man here!
So without facing a trouble at red sea, God should just parted red sea again
God performs miracle through people when ordinary human power can't provide solution to the problem at hand.
Joshua parted river Jordan, Elisha parted river Jordan, Lazarus come out alive after four days in dead, Jesus resurrected after the third day.
That's why you confused miracle with ordinary communication and people like you can swallow this obvious grammatical error as a miracle.

To each Prophet belongs his own miracle and the grand miracle given to Muhammad(pbuh) is the glorious Qu'ran and the 7th century arabians couldn't even match the fluency and grammatical composition of the Qu'ran though they were the best at literature in that time.

Remember in every MIRACLE ever performed by God through human, no human knowledge can comprehend or give full detail of it because the day man can be able to give detail analysis of MRACLE it's no more a MIRACLE simply because MIRACLE is a wonderful event occurring in the PHYSICAL world attributed to SUPERNATURAL powers...which means NO human knowledge can explain it...BUT what we see Arabians doing today is that they tell us that Quran is a miracle given to Muhammad and they go ahead to explain how this MIRACLE performed by Allah can be fully understood.

The next thing you will do now is to consult Arabic dictionary to give us another meaning of MIRACLE.

Iltifāt(Grammatical Shift) has been called by [size=14pt]rhetoricians shajā'at al- `arabiyya(The Audacity of Arabic) as it shows in their opinion, the daring nature of the Arabic language.[/size] If any 'daring' is to be attached to it,it should above all be the daring of the language of the Qur'ān since, for reasons that will be shown below, it employs this feature far more extensively and in more variations than does Arabic poetry. uses mainly Qur'ānic references in discussing iltifāt.No one seems to quote references in prose other than from the Qur'ān: and indeed a sampling of hadīth material found not a single instance.

@first Bold-You can see the point I'm emphasising on as well details @underline statement. This people only try to cover Allah's weak knowledge which is not as it's generally accepted BUT THEY ONLY GIVE their own OPINION by bring what only themselves agreed with.
@second Bold-'No one seems...' Which means people are doing it BUT it might not up to the way Quran used it. Then what make it a MIRACLE? Since people are doing it without supernatural powers.
Lastly, most ancient and latest writer use prose in their work which also appeared in Quran BUT NONE uses GRAMMATICAL SHIFT because it's a pure grammatical error.

Why would there be grammatical shifts in the bible when most of the words of the bible are words of men?

At least it's only MOST that are words of men, the remaining ones that are God's words why this grammatical shift didn't appear after all Muhammad claimed that THE SAME God who gave the previous REVELATION is the one who gave his own so at least we suppose to see a little evidence of this GRAMMATICAL SHIFT in the previous revelation.

So there are now four in one.The Father,The Son,The Holyspirit and The Angel.That's beautiful!!!!.

If the word 'ANOTHER' in my post confused you at least the word 'TRINITY' supposed to correct you. can TRINITY refer to four persons?

The Qur'ān, it should be remembered,is not an autobiography of Allāh which thus has to be cast wholly in the form of 'I' and 'me';

Another excuse; the point is who did Allah refer to when Allah shift to third person is what is in question here?

it serves as guidance for men and teaches them about stories of people that have passed in order to gain admonition from it.

Does Bible not serve as a guidance too?

Let me give you another example.The Qu'ran says in Surah Al-Qiyamah 75:2 -No! I swear by the reproachful soul! What,does man reckon We shall not gather his bones? Yes indeed;We are able to shape again his fingers
The verse started with I swear(Singular) then shifts to We are able to shape again his fingers(Plural).So why this sudden change?
It is the singular that is fitting for 'I swear';the
sudden shift to the plural expresses,as it were,
multiplicity of power in answer to the pre-Islamic Arabs' incredulity at the idea of putting scattered bones together again at the resurrection.
The sudden shift recharges the concept of plural as a grammatical form with its full sense of majesty.
The Qur'ān uses the singular pronoun for God particularly in such contexts(like swear) as those expressing worship (O my slaves),prohibition of shirk and wrath;the use of the singular is clearly important in such contexts and when there is a sudden shift to the plural of majesty it sharpens the listener's sense of the contrast between the two grammatical forms,investing 'we' when it comes after 'I' with enhanced meaning.

I'll answer this separate but remember you've agreed that Allah did SWEAR.

You are the one having a problem.Moses(pbuh) was called by a voice from inside the burning flame,not a voice outside as you keep lamenting.Read gently

I do read gently but it's you who didn't. My statement was 'AS IF' check again.
You said inside but see how the verse put it.

Surah An-Naml 27:7 -But when he came to it(the fire),he was called:"Blessed is whosoever is in the fire and whosoever is round about it! And glorified be Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind,jinns and all that exists).

So you can see the underlined words 'WHOSEVER' this sounds as if an outsider PRAISING THE PERSON INSIDE THE fire.

So your point is that the being that talked to Moses(pbuh)[i.e Allah(swt)]must be outside for burning flame?

You didn't understand my point, I repeat THE VOICE SOUNDS as an outsider praising the ONE INSIDE the fire.

Must the two persons(addressee and addresser) have a face to face contact before they can communicate?

Read very well before you comment.

Can't voice be heard without seeing the person?

The voice here sounds like THE PERSON is outside the FIRE whereas Allah supposed to be INSIDE the FIRE.

Moses(pbuh) was called by Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala [size=14pt]from inside the burning flame(It's a voice for goodness sake),[/size] it's not necessary for Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala to be the outside the flame before communication can take place.

The point you're missing here is that you fail to notice the vocal differences in this communication.
"Blessed is he that in the fire" or another translation "Blessed is whosoever inside the fire". This is a statement of an outsider referring to the one INSIDE the fire.

I will ignore you if you can't show some respect,stop using 'itself' and use your brain.Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is A LIVING BEING.'Itself' is used for inanimate objects.

I put more emphasis on this to correct the notion of people like you who always claim that the prediction of Holyspirit in the book of John can't be referring to the Holyspirit because John uses HE for the Spirit whereas John supposed to use 'It'.

You are the only one seeing someone outside the fire apart from Moses(pbuh).
Moses(pbuh) was called by a voice inside the burning flame.Is it a must the two beings communicating must be together? Can't there be communication without facial contacts? Use your brain please.

Nobody is talking about facial contact here BUT changing in VOCAL communication when the voice sounds like an OUTSIDER speaking.

You are the one encountering the problem.

I'm not.

Nowhere does the angel identify himself as God. [size=14pt]The angel didn't say 'I am Yahweh',[/size] you are the one cooking that up.The verse says 'the angel appeared to Moses within the bush and afterwards what we heard was God's voice.You didn't answer the question.

Let's see who is adding up here. I'll highlight the relevant part.
2 And the angel of Jehovah appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.[/u] And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

These verses are self explanatory.
NOTE: The Angel appeared OUT OF THE MIDST OF THE BUSH in verse 2 and GOD ALSO CALLED him OUT OF THE MIDST OF THE BUSH unless you want to tell us that two persons appeared to Moses.

Please,what type of thinking is this? Even 'she' is for countries,people will say 'Nigeria celebrated her 53rd independence'. Is Nigeria a female? Why using 'her' for Nigeria then?
Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala has no gender and we can't use 'it' for Allah because Allah is a living being.The only pronoun we can use is 'he' since 'he' is closer but that doesn't signify Allah is a male.

I'm not talking about GENDER here.
Moreover, whenever she/her is being used for inanimate object it means those objects have been PERSONIFIED as a female or FEMINE.

One reason I don't like engaging you in a dialogue.You never keep track of what you write,

Let's see whether I keep track or you're the one who confused.

praise and worship aren't the same.

Did I say they are the same? show me.

Praise may be part of worship but they are never the same.Praise and prayer are never the same.

It's not MAY BE praise is part of worship this is my first statement.
Who says prayer and praise are the same?

In Arabic there are many words that can be used for praise such as Hamd,Madh and Shukr. Hamd is a type of praise due to the qualities that the [size=14pt]one being praised,[/size] possesses.

The funny part is that you didn't even understand what you're saying yourself.
The definition you gave says "...ONE BEING PRAISED..." Which means the person who's giving the praise is ACTUALLY praising ANOTHER PERSON.

Shukr on the other hand means gratitude – giving thanks or showing thanks. You thank a person for the good they have and shown towards you.
We can have:
1)Shukr by heart; the internal recognition that that
blessing is from Allah and knowing that it has been
given by the grace of Allah and not by the servants
own merit.
2) Shukr by the tongue;praising the Bestower of
blessings,Allah.
3) Shukr by the limbs;by using that blessing in a
way that is pleasing to the one that has bestowed
you with that good.

Does this solve the problem? Let's see!

So when Allah says 'All praises be to Allah'

So Allah says to Allah

it's Hamd,a praise for perfection and qualities which none can possesses except Allah.It's not showing appreciation or gratitude(Shukr),get that straight into your head.

But the hamd never refers to the same person rather than ANOTHER PERSON being praised.
So who is Allah praising according to HAMD definition?

'Jesus' was praying to the unseen, not praising.

It also means that Allah is praising to unseen.

Was Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala praying for himself?

Quran said so.

SubhanAllah!!!! Stop the conjectures Emusan.

Stop confusing yourself sir.

You are the one that have grammatical problems.Read post and digest before launching.

I resemble Allah nah.

Why are you fond of telling lies? I never mentioned worship in my post,

But you agree that Praise may be part of worship.

you did and you also concluded I agreed which is false.

Was my claim wrong?

You brought forth your argument whether praise and worship connotes the same thing,

See how an educated person misread statement, did I say praise and worship mean the same thing?
I repeat PRAISE IS PART OF WORSHIP if this is different from my previous point show me here now and let's see who lack comprehension.

I never mentioned anything yet and you jumped into conclusion accusing me that I agreed without even saying a word.This is not the first time of you doing that,that's very bad of you.

You agreed that Allah did praise himself and praise is part of worship which you try to justify by bringing different meaning of praise in Arabic which it doesn't even favour you.
So what did I do wrong?

tola9ja: dont let me deceive you you need to ur doctor

What type of grammar is this

tola9ja: I NOW UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR BRAIN IS FULL OF TUMOR U COMPARE UR PROJECT WITH GOD'S WORD
ANYWAY I WILL KEEP ON TRYING TO ENLIGHTEN YOU

Olodo is their any special way of writing than the one human are using?
Remember if God want to communicate with us God has to use our own mode of communication, so why is it that it's only in Quran that everything is MIRACLE? Allah can't write in our simple understanding SMH...

ALLAH IS THE 1 THAT SEND ALL THE PROPHET TO THE WORLD SO HE NARRATE THE HISTORY OF THE PAST PROPHET TO THE THE PRESENT THROUGH THERE SCRIPTURES GIVEN TO THEM VERY SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND

So far that it's Allah that sent Allah the prophets, it means it's Allah who spoke all their words EVEN BEFORE SOME PROPHETS were called to their prophetic mission...SMH once again for your ignorance.

lanrexlan: Long time indeed.

Yeah

To you and your mentors with a closed heart,it's a problem.

It's not a problem for me BUT to you who see an obvious problem and trying to cover it.

[size=14pt]That's a miracle about the glorious Qu'ran[/size]

Imaging you call it MIRACLE whereas rhetorical language is always straight forward.

which the 7th century arabians couldn't even match.

Then I challenge you to provide JUST ONE LITERATURE that uses this unmatchable Quran but couldn't RATHER you called it MIRACLE...SMH!

I gave you a typical example of such shift with a well detailed and explained example.

NOTE nothing like grammatical shifting in the Bible RATHER each statement demonstrate THE PLURALITY of YAHWEH not a being like Allah that suppose to exist in SINGULARITY but always shift in Its statement.

Mind explaining this to me?
Exodus 3:2-3 -There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush.Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight--why the bush does not burn up." When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look,God called to him from within the bush "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said, "Here I am."................. this,Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God
In the beginning of the verse,the angel of God appeared to Moses then towards the end Moses was afraid to look at God.Is God's face and angel's face the same?

This is where your problem lies, Angel of the Lord that appeared here is another being within the TRINITY of YAHWEH you can do more research about this.

It's even good as you quote this verse from Bible now let's compare this verse with Quran to see the difference.

"When Moses said to his people 'I observe a fire, and will bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that haply you shall warm yourselves.' So, when he(Moses) came to it, he(Moses) was called: 'Blessed is he who is in the fire, and he who is about it. Glory be to God, the Lord of all Being! Moses, behold, it is I, God, the All-mighty, the All-wise. Cast down thy staff.' And when he saw it quivering like a serpent he turned about, retreating, and turned not back. 'Moses, fear not; surely the Envoys do not fear in My presence, save him who has done evil, then; after evil, has changed into good; All-forgiving am I, All-compassionate. Thrust thy hand in thy bosom and it will come forth white without evil-among nine signs to Pharaoh and his people; they are an ungodly people.' But when Our signs came to them visibly, they said, 'This is a manifest sorcery'; and they denied them, though their souls acknowledged them, wrongfully and out of pride. Behold, how was the end of the workers of corruption! S. 27:7-14

If you pay close attention to this conversation very well you can see the obvious grammatical shift;
Who called Moses? It's Allah!
But who speaks to Moses? A being outside the FIRE.

1) The translator inserted quotation mark to make it sure that the SPEAKER is referring to another person which SUPPOSED to be Allah
2) Then we can see when Allah supposes to start Its statement, the statement begins as if an outside was the one PRAISING the person inside the FIRE.
3) At the end we can see that the voice of an outsider PRAISING the one inside the FIRE finally identify him/her/itself to be Allah

BUT in case of that Genesis you quoted The Angel of the Lord simply IDENTIFY Himself as YAHWEH not shifting from one person to another AND NOTHING like PRAISES

Try and be a gentleman Emusan.

I am sir.

Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is a living being He's Al-Hayyu the ever living and the pronoun you should use is not 'itself'.'Itself' is used for inanimate things.

Whereas the He you used was only using for a PERSON, is Allah a PERSON?

Try to show some courtesy.

I will.

To your question,I don't think it's your problem if Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala praises himself.He's the most High,worthy of all praises. To Him belong all praises.Allah praises Himself to remind His creatures that all praise belongs to Him alone.

Heehee...so it's befitting for a CREATOR to be PRAISING HIMSELF? SMH
Did you know that PRAISE is part of WORSHIP?
So if Allah is praising himself THAT means he is WORSHIPPING himself...
But people like you can quickly attack Christianity by asked who is Jesus praying to if He is God? you can see problem with Jesus' prayer that is, it's not befitting for Christ to pray if He is actually God BUT it befits Allah to PRAISE himself.

It is not permissible for a human being to praise themselves like this.Allah says --So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who fears Allah and keep his duty to Him. (Surah Najm 53:32) Self-praise is despised among humans because they have many more defects and deficiencies than points of praise.Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is pure,the Holy one worthy of All praises.

Of course you're right BUT only if you know that it's not befitting A Unitarian CREATOR to be WORSHIPPING himself.

So Allah praises himself to remind his creatures that they are weak and solely dependent of Him.

You agree that Allah is worshipping himself and it's good for a Unitarian creator to do so...that's good of you and your religion.

tola9ja: the holy spirit have been existing before the birth of jesus so why will he said what has been existing will come to exists that is commonsensically nonsensical a rational thinking person will never say such a thing

When will you get knowledge?
I only asked you WHY DO YOU THINK He can't be used for Holy Spirit?
Who asked you whether He exists before Jesus or after Him

By the way Jesus didn't say that [size=14pt][b]the Holy Spirit will come to an existence after He left BUT ALL BELIEVER WILL HAVE ACCESS TO THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT which unlike before that the Holy Spirit was only minister in some individual NOT EVERYBODY but after the exaltation of JESUS ALL BELIEVERS NOW HAVE ACCESS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT to fulfil the prophecy of Joel 2:28[/size]
"And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.

i repeat what have been saying quran contain Allah's word

Did I say it doesn't contain Allah's word?

example if u write a book about what ur father say will write ur father name as the author
muhammed is not live during the existence of jesus and Allah narrated it to him and also what happen between moses and pharaoh

You're still displaying this your ignoramus.
Let me give you this last example to help your ignorance.
During my final year project in school, the WHOLE project appeared in my speech/text BUT I quote SOME books written by some people. So for my work to be acceptable I have to PROVIDE a reference to made it clear that though the WHOLE project appeared in my text BUT I BORROW some people's text also. That's why majority of book always include REFERENCE at the end of the book.

In conclusion the WHOLE project appeared in my speech BUT contains OTHER people's speech.

simple sentence you find it difficult to understand OOOO GGGG AAA HHH OOOOO
i no you will unable to reply these give me the bible verse that jesus said am the lord and savior if u can provide it i will continue my conversation with it

Lolzzz... is it me that find simple sentence difficult or you?

You want to take style to run away....please stick to topic at hand first before that!

tola9ja: your IQ is too low cos u find it difficult to understand a simple sentences

I thought my explanation has corrected your ignorance but I discovered it's getting worse.

Allah is the speaker or narrator of Qur'an and only quoted Jesus' word, [size=14pt]is those words belong to Allah?[/size]

@Bold-Are you asking me?
Is that not what I've been telling you since?
Qur'an is narrated by Allah BUT CONTAINS OTHER PEOPLE'S WORD SIMPLE!

can you see your life outside?

he narrate what jesus said to muhammed jesus said 1 prophet will come after me follow him that is what Allah narrate to Muhammad

WHAT JESUS SAID which isn't WHAT ALLAH SAID!

Then it makes the word of Jesus appeared in Allah's narration.

Common sense is not common indeed.

John 16:13 ESV
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come

this verse is referring muhammed but is has been edited because if it really the holy spirit the pronoun will be it not he

Don't worry I know how confuse you people are when it comes to Bible but my question is this,

why do you think the pronouns he can't be used for Holy spirit?

tola9ja: i don't no how i can help your brain to comprehend simple English

You've not helped yourself you want to help another person.

the whole quran contain Allah's word

That's you people's claim but is it?
see below!

he[Allah] narrate what [size=14pt]Jesus said[/size] during is life time to Muhammad

I didn't deny the narration of Allah BUT THE QUOTATION OF JESUS' WORD.

The BOLDED part says Allah NARRATED what Jesus said which means it's not Allah who made the statement BUT ONLY narrated it.

That's why the very verse you quoted places a QUOTATION MARK at the word of Jesus.

Meaning of quote.
quote /kwəʊt/
verb
1. repeat or copy out (words from a text or
speech written or spoken by another
person).

From here we see that whenever a quotation mark is being used THE WRITER OR SPEAKER only referring to someone's speech or writing WHICH ARE NOT ORIGINALLY HIS/HER SPEECH OR TEXT.

Surat Aş-Şaf (The Ranks) - سورة الصف
61:6
Sahih International
And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."

NARRATE means give detail account of something

See where you short yourself in the leg, you agree that NARRATE is given an account of SOMETHING.
That THING you narrate is not actually yours i.e You can narrate a MOVIE or DEBATE or HISTORY (which is what Allah did) but whatever you narrated isn't your.

Now since Allah is the speaker or narrator of Qur'an and only quoted Jesus' word, is those words belong to Allah? And remember many situations like this where an HISTORICAL EVENT is being narrated have been claimed to be Allah's word too.

These are simple English which a primary school student shouldn't have problem with but because you've been deceived beyond measure simple primary English is difficult for you to comprehend.

tola9ja: that why i always said u lack understanding the whole quran contain Allah's word he narrate what jesus said to muhammed true the verse

Really Lolll
Now let's see who lack understanding!
@bold-Is it said to or said about?
The statement of Jesus does it take place on earth during Jesus' life or in heaven?

If it's during His lifetime THAT MAKES it an historical event but if it's in heaven then your argument is plausible.

BUT thank Yahweh that you also agree that Allah is NARRATING the event.

So what is the meaning of NARRATE?

Longest time Brother Lanrexlan!

lanrexlan: The Qur’anic linguistic feature is the effective rhetorical device known as
iltifāt or grammatical shifts. This literary device
enhances the texts literary expression and it is an accepted, well researched part of Arabic rhetoric.

Another way of explaining away this gross problem in Quran, rhetoric device

One can find references in the books of Arabic rhetoric by al-Athir, Suyuti and Zarkashi. These grammatical shifts include: changes in
person, change in number, change in addressee, change in tense, change in case marker, using a noun in place of a pronoun and many other changes.

Please give us another literature where rhetoric device of GRAMMATICAL SHIFTS was using like Quran.

The main functions of these shifts include the changing of emphasis, to alert the reader to a particular matter, and to enhance the style of the text.Its effects include creating variation and difference in a text, to generate rhythm and flow, and to maintain the listener’s
attention in a dramatic way.
Chapter al-Kawthar provides another good example of the use of grammatical shifts,
“Verily, We have granted you The Abundance.
Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice. For he who hates you, he will be cut off.”

In this chapter, there is a change from the first person plural “We” to the second person “…your Lord”. This change is not an abrupt shift; it is calculated and highlights the intimate relationship between God and the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ. The use of “We” is used to emphasize the Majesty, Power and Ability of God. This choice of personal pronoun calls attention to, and stresses the fact, that God has the Power and Ability to grant Muhammad“…The Abundance”. Whereas “Your Lord” has been used to indicate and emphasise intimacy, closeness and love. The word “Your Lord” has a range of meanings that imply master, provider, and the One that cares. This is an apt use of language, as the surrounding concepts are about prayer, sacrifice and worship; “Therefore turn inprayer to your Lord and sacrifice“.
Furthermore, the purpose of this chapter is also to console Prophet Muhammad,as using such intimate language enhances the psycholinguistic effect.
www.nairaland.com/1898514/qurans-miracle-non-arabic-speakers#26258407

Did you read the OP where Allah suppose to be narrating Moses' encounter with Itself but Allah started praising Itself, is that rhetoric statement again?

Please come with another excuse.

tola9ja: please on a serious note try to do more reserch to know what jesus really practice he no nothing about [size=14pt]christianity paul exterblish it[/size]

I've been expecting this BOLDED part remember I said in one of my post that AFTER you used Paul's statement you will still come back to tell us that PAUL is a false teacher, can you see it now?

may Allah show you is rit patch Amin

Always check your grammar before you submit your post...

When Allah Itself don't have a right part....how can a deceiver know anything about RIGHT?