₦airaland Forum

frosbel: But Jesus said we are also one with him and the father, does that make us God or Christ ?

Na today we dey talk am....hmmmmmm

khattab02: Hmmmmm... MAY BE YOU SHOULD ASK FROSBEL WHY HE THINKS TRINITY IS A PAGAN CONCEPT? HAVE I QUOTE ANY QUR'AN OR SCRIPTURE? NO! THIS IS NOT BEING BIASED ABOUT THE BIBLE BUT WHAT THE BIBLE ITSELF HAS TO SAY.

So Frosbel is now the final say of Christian? didn't you read where Jesus said "I and my Father are one" and so on
Just do as I've said!

khattab02: THANKS FOR ACKNOWLEDGING! THE TRUTH BE TOLD, YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THE CONCEPT OF TRINITY WITHOUT RUNNING INTO PROBLEMS ESPECIALLY WHEN ASKED FURTHER QUESTIONS AND THIS IS DUE TO WHAT OTHER VERSES OF THE SAME BIBLE HAS TO SAY.

How do you know I will run into confusion, check this thread titled "Against the Trinity" and see my stand.
Stop bringing Muslim view about Jesus by being biased about Bible.

khattab02: Can you deny the fact that those verses are there In the bible?

They are there but check what they say yourself.

Like the one he quoted he said Jesus always says He is a prophet wherever He goes of which the verse he quoted says "when Jesus was coming on a horse people begin to ask who is this? And SOME PEOPLE replied say the prophet of Naserath now is it Jesus who called himself prophet or people? Can you see that? That's why I advise to read those verses whether it correlates what he's pointing out. So that it wont make the mistake that Muhammad made.

Shalom!

Gombs: The above bold is Not true!

God NEVER revealed himself to Adam and Eve. It was Jesus that was with them. God NEVER leaves his throne.

Gen 3v8 KJV
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Jesus is the Word of God. Jn 1v1 that word came walking.

@Op the Holyspirit is same as God, he proceeds from the father. God never leaves his throne, but manifest him self by the person of the Holyspirit and dwells in us and through us, does his will and wonders all over the world.

I have been tried to let people know that Jesus is the word of God.
When talking about Trinity this is how people who first thought about it view it according to Athanasian "he said the truth about the UNITY of Godhead is this....they're three person, the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holyspirit is God. Yet they are not three Gods but one God, and these three person distinct from one another"
According to this statement it is very clear that they are talking about ONE PERSON IN THREE FORMS NOT THREE PERSON IN THREE FORMS.
I the major confusion came from the trinitarian themselves when they try to explain the Trinity by assuming that God transformed Himself into human being to save them NO! but rather God made His own word free of sin to became flesh and put all His uniqueness upon Him.

While Holyspirit is the Spirit of God Himself.

kolypo: 38 Simple Reasons Why Is Jesus Not God
1- God Doesn’t Change His Nature (Malachi
3:6)
2- GOD Almighty is Greater than Jesus. (John
14:28 )
3- No one is "Good" including Jesus. Only
GOD is" Good" (Luke 18:19)
4- Jesus said he doesn't know when the
Hour
will come. Only GOD Knows. (Mark 13:32)
5- Jesus said that" OUR God is One GOD
" (Mark 12:29 )
6- Jesus also said "My GOD and your
GOD" (John 20:17)
7- Jesus bowed his face down to the ground
to GOD Almighty. (Matthew 26:39)
8- Jesus was tempted by satan for 40 days
(Mat1:4), while GOD Almighty can not be
tempted (Jacob 1:13)
9- Jesus said he is a man (John 8:40)
10- God is neither a man nor a son of a man
(Numbers 23:19)
11- No one can see god (1 John 4:20) but
people saw Jesus
12- God is the living and everlasting
(Habakkuk 1:12)
13- Jesus always confessed he is just a
prophet sent by god (Matthew 21:10-11)
14- God Declare Himself to be God, Jesus
didn't (Ezekiel 20:20)
15- Jesus told his real mission was to preach
not sacrifice (Mark 1:38)
16- Jesus desired Mercy not Sacrifice
(Matthew 9:13)
Jesus refered himseld as
17- Servant:
Matthew 10:24, 24:45, 12:18 John 13:16
18- Prophet:
Matthew 8:20 13:16,21:11, Mark 6:15, 6;4,
9;37, Luke 7:16, 9:8, 9:19, John 13:17, 7:16,
6:14, 7:40
19- Son of Man:
Matthew 5:9, 17:22, 8:20, 18:11, 26:2, Luke
9:22, John 5:27
20- Slave:
John 13:16, Matthew 10:24
21- Student:
Matthew 10:24
22- Father is Grater than Jesus (John 14:28)
How can someone can be greater than God?
23- Jesus was taught by the Father (John
8:28)
24- Jesus can do nothing by himself (John
5:19, John 5:30)
25- Jesus does not even has his own
doctrine (John 7:16)
26- Jesus ascend to his God (John 20:17)
27- According to Christian Jesus died as
recorded in Matthew 27:27-56 but Bible says
that God is infinite Pslam 102:27-27
28- Jesus needed to Pray, Eat, Drink and Was
Helped by Woman, as stated in Luke 8:1-3
but God in Bible is self-sufficient Psalm
50:12
29- The God remain the same in nature
(Hebrews 1:12)
30- Jesus is the same human today,
yesterday and forver (Hebrew 13:
31- Jesus could not save anyone as he was
even not able to save himself (Hebrews
5:1-
32- Jesus said he was send to lost sheep of
Israel (Matthew 15:24)
33- God can not be born and perhaps form
his own creation
34- Jesus never said people to worship me
35- Jesus did not thaught Trinity
36- God is the essence of the worship. He is
the object of worship. Had Jesus been God,
he would have told people to worship him.
Truly, he did the exact opposite as in
Matthew 15:9
37- Jesus never called his followers
Christians, Paul did
38- Jesus as a servant ofGod (Matthew 12:18

These are the things Muhammad saw which made him composed his own book out of ignorance and claimed it was revealed by angel Gibri.

Try to get a Bible and begin to check those verses you quoted whether it correlates with the point you are trying to make, this is the problem you people have when doing copy and paste work.

[quote author=waldigit ]Can You Beat these Records?


He is the one who has a name that is above other names: JESUS. Phil 2

He is the only one who through instruction from God the father, is your creator (Eph 3:9)

He is the only one who broke the record of loving his supposed enemy to the extent of dying for them. (Isa 53:5,John15:13),

He is the only one whose conception was divinely processed by the Holy Spirit hence, had a natural virgin birth. Luke 1:34-35

He is the first person to open the eyes of blind from birth person. John 9:1-32

He is the only One whose record of holiness while he was in the world, hitherto has not been broken. John 14:30

He is the only one who has largest no of witnesses who testified to us that he is Christ, the Lord. Isa 9:6, Psalm 110 Ezekiel, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John. Paul

He is the only one who influenced and defined the worlds concept of time like nobody else.(AD,BC) Dan. 7:9

He is the only one who declared himself that he is God and then went ahead to proof it. (John 8:58, John10:34, Mat17:2 Mark 9 :2

He is the only one who revealed to us God the father like nobody else (Mathew 11:27, John10:10, 1John 3:8 )

He is the only one who predicted His own death and promised his resurrection, also went ahead to fulfill them. (Mat 26

He is the only one who declared His monopoly to God, the Almighty and the statement still remained popular, valid and indisputable more than 2000 years after till date John 14:6.

He is the only who ascended with glorified body to Heaven and promised His coming back in the same manner (Amen) (Act 1: 9-10).

He is the only one who will judge every creature one day. Rome 14:10

He has the most popular and long lasting, widely acceptable controversial doctrine.

He is the only who did not write a single book, yet the book written about him remains the most persecuted yet, best seller of all time.

He remains the most widely written about personality of all time.

Friend, if you are sincere with yourself enough to know you cannot beat these records and neither know of anyone who has or can, then I want you to agree with me that you can’t afford to ignore them.
Hence, join the wining team by accepting JESUS as your Lord and personal saviour NOW![/quote]Nice one Op! I created a similar thread though yours is more detail than mine.
but kindly remove these from that last sentence "join the winning team" & "Now" it doesn't fit with nature of Christ and what commanded us to do.

Shalom!

As a Comforter; Jesus was comforting His disciples with a great assurance, we read in John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Even though Jesus started His statement from verse 1 of that chapter 14 with a gentle word full of peace "Let not your heart be trouble..."

Jesus is the only man who has ever walked on planet earth given assurance statement of Himself of;
*How He's going to die
*What will happen in the position of dead
*How He will be brought back to life
*what will happen after resurrection
*Finally, guarantee of life for those who believed
Which He stated in John 14:19 " Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Finally, He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: and the chastisement of our peace was upon Him because He first loved us before we love Him.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Jesus is the Lord to the glory of the Father!

uaphorism: Maybe its just a stage of life, maybe it'll pass and I'll outgrow i all..but lately, I find myself being skeptical about anything religious.. I mistakenly tune to a christian channel and I find the whole thing either extremely amusing or enormously annoying..

The clergy don't help matters at all, when they simply can not explain something, they tell you, you have to accept it by faith..or that the hidden things belong to God..

Now, those that claim to know how to make me lose my doubts, end up making statements and assumptions they can't use the scriptures to back up..

That is when you begin to hear stuff like, 'there was a gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2', 'Adam MUST have given birth to other kids that Cain wz able to marry', 'God SEEMS to have created the other people that Cain said were going to kill him', 'the prophecy in Matt 26:9 was through Zachariah when it is clearly stated Jeremy'..etc

The Bible is infallible as we're led to believe..there however are unexplainable mistakes.. Should we live our lives based on a book that states that it is complete and accurate, I mean, something inspired by God couldn't be inaccurate now..

Why soo many different conflicting doctrines?? With proofs from the Bible to lend them credence, which is false and which should we believe? Is He that was made a little lower than the angels, He that doesn't know of when the rapture will take place, is He equal with God the Father? Is there a place called hell for all sinners? So many conflicts..

Lastly, if I was born into a muslim home, will I still believe that Jesus is the only way? The billions of people convinced that their own religious tenets are the truth, will they all die and burn eternally in hell? Someone will tell me about the time of Noah..but then shouldn't God give a physical sign, something very glaring..to tell everyone that this or that is the right way? You tell me the supernatural happens in christianity but they happen in every other religion and there are even many other religions that lead better, morally upright lives than christians..christians may even be the worst people on earth..

I still however believe that there is a God, The First Cause, The Creator of everything seen and unseen..

Most people that have ever questioned their faith either end up lose it or add to it.
Most who might've closed it stop at a certain point while those who might've added to it do extral personal research.

Sit down quietly and ask yourself this simple question; is everyone believing in God are deluded/cannot reason outside the box?
Any answer you get might determine the next step either you will completely lose it or add more.

Bible really supports one to acquire more knowledge.

Shalom!

OLAADEGBU: Study the soil for a moment. It naturally produces weeds. No one plants them; no one waters them. They even stubbornly push through cracks of a dry sidewalk. Millions of useless weeds sprout like there’s no tomorrow, strangling our crops and ruining our lawns. Pull them out by the roots, and there will be more tomorrow. They are nothing but a curse!

Consider how much of the earth is uninhabitable. There are millions of square miles of barren deserts in Africa and other parts of the world. Most of Australia is nothing but miles and miles of useless desolate land. Not only that, but the earth is constantly shaken with massive earthquakes. Its shores are lashed with hurricanes; tornadoes rip through creation with incredible fury; devastating floods soak the land; and terrible droughts parch the soil. Sharks, tigers, lions, snakes, spiders, and disease-carrying mosquitoes attack humanity and suck its life’s blood.

The earth’s inhabitants are afflicted with disease, pain, suffering, and death. Think of how many people are plagued with cancer, Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, emphysema, Parkinson’s, and a number of other debilitating illnesses. Consider all the children with leukemia, or people born with crippling diseases or without the mental capability to even feed themselves. All these things should convince rational minds that something is radically wrong.

@bold-You have said it all but instead for them should reason with it they will quickly assign it to a wicked act of God because they can't prove beyond it by asking them, why must these things happen, what is their source? Lol....just the way they believe ancient people assigned everything that happened as effect of a God/gods because they can't prove beyond their Nose

Sarassin: I have not said Athanasius claimed his statement was quoted from the Bible, on the contrary. As you have pointed out, Athanasius has derived his theology drawn on what he may have considered logical facts. It doesn't follow that he is automatically right. There is NO single use term in the Bible to describe his theology, you can only make an inference if you compound a number of disparate verses as you have done.



This is your dilemma, not mine, for clearly whether the OT people knew about salvation or not there would be no earthly reason to preclude them from being cognizant of the Trinity or the Son, they were afterall aware of the Holy Spirit or " the spirit of God" if you will.



Of course not, neither have I said it's an insertion. However, the fact that Jesus commands his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit does not amount to an explicit theological doctrine. At various times Jesus commands, "Love God with all your heart", i.e Jesus has referred to God as the personal and the impersonal.

I can now infer from your point that since the word Trinity never appears in the Bible not that there no verse that supported it we should stop using. OK I have heard you.


Thanks!

MAN05: I have already giving you the etymological definition of it, which is different from your claimed derivation. that is just my point of quoting google.

Now like I said before, your description of trinity is different from what the trinity dogma says which is what I am trying to tell you, before you jumped into telling me the derivation.

If you ve changed your earlier understanding as stated in thread 1, you have to redefine what you mean by trinity. after all you said that it was what you understood. waiting...

OK!
If they claimed that three person in one, does it mean that these three operate at different person with different rules?

Even looking at the phrase "THREE PERSON IN ONE" should tell you that it's one person but exist in three form by reversing the phrase "ONE PERSON IN THREE"

In think where some Trinitarian missed it especially those that doesn't have the knowledge of it, is when they think God Himself leave heaven and transformed Himself in human nature and died. But it is totally absurd rather God made His own word (free from sin) to become flesh (the way He used Him to create Universe without blemish) and put all His uniqueness opon Him.

Nobody ever says TRINITY appeared in the Bible but the life?/appearance of Jesus why on Earth was a full invisible Image of God because He's the word of Him.

He told his disciples;
Luke 10:23-24 "
KJV:And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
NASB:Turning to the disciples, He said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see,
NIV:Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see.
24 KJV:For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
NASB:for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them.”
NIV:For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”

In these two verses NB;
Jesus first talked to his desciples PRIVATELLY because He was in the midst of multitude!
The question now is 'base on verse 24', what is that thing that many PROPHETS and KINGS have been desired to see and hear but they couldn't?

The best answer to this question was said by Jesus Himself when Phillip said "show us the Father" Jesus replied
John 14:9 "AMP:Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the Father?
ESV:Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
KJV:Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
NASB:Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
NIV:Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
I you can feel the passion of that first sentence "Don't you know me Philip?
Remember Philip ask Him to them the Father! It very easy for Jesus to say Don't worry when you get to heaven/when I come back to receive to myself you people will know the Father but He didn't rather He claim to be the Father.


Shalom!

Sarassin: To answer your Questions,

1.If you read my earlier post you will see that I commented that neither the son nor the Holy spirit has apparent authority to act. The crux of the matter is the further elaboration of the Athanasian creed, “ The Father is God, the son is God and the Holy Spirit is God” Kindly provide me with ONE verse from the bible that explicitly states “ Jesus our Lord God” NOT Our Lord Jesus, nor Jesus Son of God. The fact that Jesus was not stoned to death by the Jews should tell anyone that he never claimed to be God in his lifetime.

OK!
Did Athanasian ever claim that his statement was quoted from the Bible?
Even at the beginning of that encyclopedia you quoted it was stated clearly with this phrase "..the truth that in the UNITY of Godhead"
Looking at is statement we can say his deriving his fact logically based on what he might've read in the Bible.
Read Col 2:9, 1John1:1, Titus 2:13 though I have quoted that Col & Titus but since you are not following all my post with open heart you couldn't see them.

2. With respect to my question on the Pentateuch and other early Jewish writings, my point is that salvation or no salvation, God is constant, if God is a trinity now, then he was a trinity in the time of the Old testament and furthermore, would have been revealed as such.

Since none of the OT people know nothing about Salvation, how would they know about the Son?

3. Your understanding of how God reveals himself is surely YOUR apparent

Read Hebrew 1:1-2 no wasting of time for quote again since you didn't follow my post.

Lastly You are correct I don’t reason along the lines of your post. Read my very first post again. The verses you have quoted are from the bible, they are not false, my assertion is that they are useless to establish the facts we are discussing here. The fact that you can ascribe disparate verses in the bible to individual components of the trinity is not in itself evidence of a trinity, for instance anyone can cobble together several verses of the bible in a manner arranged to present God as evil. So far you are blundering around on the finer points of the form and composition of the trinity. I don’t dispute the “composition”, three –in-one, One-in –three whatever. I dispute the legitimacy of the inclusion of the trinity as Christian doctrine in view of the fact that the only explicitly clear verse (as far as I can determine) has been shown to be a later insertion.

What about Jesus telling his disciples to baptized in the name of the Father, the Son & the Holyspirit? Is that one inserted too?

tbaba1234: An interesting link that gives a comparison between the two books

http://www.bibleislam.com/bible_vs_quran.php

Read with open minds, May God give you guidance.


Peace

After a lot of allegation against Bible I.e
Bible is not from God but was written by men
Bible contains a lot of error.
Original Bible scripts have lost. And many more! Your author can still went ahead to made this statement/conclusion:

I would like to state that after years of studying the Bible and then learning the Arabic language to read the Quran as it was originally recited to Muhammad (peace be upon him) by the angel Gabriel, I have come to an amazing conclusion. It seems to me that the Bible and the Quran are most definitely from the exact same source and they compliment each other very nicely. In fact, it appears that the Bible does not contradict the Quran, except in the very same places where the Bible contradicts itself.

the last phrase "...where the Bible contradicts itself" I know it was purposelly added to clear Quran from sharing in Bible contradicted verses as the Author claimed and you also can't read the full measage but quickly come here and exposed your fish brain. SMH

I will advise people to checkout the purpose of the site and compare it with the conclusion part.

JMAN05: GOOGLE

The English word "trinity" is derived from Latin trinitas, meaning "the number three, a triad". This abstract noun is formed from the adjective trinus (three each, threefold, triple),[7] as the word unitas is the abstract noun formed from unus (one).

The corresponding word in Greek is Τριάς, meaning "a set of three" or "the number three"

i WONDER THE BREAKDOWN

To you define Trinity?
Even in encyclopedia quoted by Sarassin you will see the word "unity" there.
waiting for your definition.

Sarassin: If you are going to accuse me of not reading my Bible then you should at least demonstrate superior knowledge. Here is what the catholic Encyclopaedia has to say about the trinity;

I'm not accusing you but if it seems so to you. I'm sorry!

" — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.......... thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

If you have truly grasped my point since then you will know you're the who never make any meaningful posit here.
On above bold the THREE PERSONS were truly distinct from one another right! Mark that point.

Athanasian says "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy spirit, they are not three Gods but one God" according to your quote.
Now the question I want to ask you is, Did Athanasian claim that God the Father, Son & Holyspirit rule deffrently?
Did both have different Authority?
Did they rule defferent man?
I think where you miss it is thinking that Jesus(the Son) have his own creation and rule over them likewise the Holyspirit!

God the Father is still the same God in the position of the Son by made His own word became flesh and exalted Him which now the fullness of Godhead dwell Col 2:9
And Holy is the Spirit of God.

None the of the verses you have quoted uniquely establishes the trinity.

What do you understand by the word Trinity?

You say the perspective of Trinitarians is the manner in which God reveals himself to mankind, this is utter nonsense,

God in the time past spoke with our fathers but in the mid-time spoke in physical person through His Son now in this last day speaking with us through His Spirit...... this is what I mean when said God reveals Himself to mankind.

how come God never revealed himself as a trinity in the Pentateuch, the Torah or the Mishnah ? In Exodus 6:2 Moses asks God to reveal himself, does God say “I am three in One” ? How absurd this trinity business.

See question from an intelligent mind.
Is there any form of salvation in the Pentateuch?
Dont forget that, God used the people of OT to prepare, prophecies and propclaim the coming of the savior.

You as well as many other Christians indulge in "reverse engineering", you take a desired outcome and then work your way backwards and in the process you bring your religion into disrepute. Trinitarians are better off saying “ the trinity is an expression of their perception of God” as opposed to trying to wrangle it into the scriptures as doctrine.

I know you don't reason along the line with my post that's why you keep concluding what is already in you. What I'm expecting you to do is to tell me that those verses you're using is false see what they are talking about, this is how someone rebutes a fact not the way you're doing!


"Take your time and begin to read my post from the beginning with a view of that encyclopedia"


Shalom!

Sarassin: My point is that they are clearly incompatible
Isaiah says (to paraphrase) " there are no other Gods besides me "
The Book of Genesis says (again paraphrasing) "God created heaven and earth" It does not say "we as a trinity created heaven and earth"

John is equally clear by stating that " in the beginning was the word....." and we agree here that he asserts the "word" in this instance is Jesus

The book of Genesis and the prophecy of Isaiah have a common unitary stance in the uniqueness of God, John takes an opposing view in assigning pre-existence to Jesus, thereby conferring a status of divinity ( Not that Jesus doesn't deserve it ) BUT both positions cannot be right. We therefore have to examine the motives of the writer of John.

From the point of view of the trinity, doctrinally it serves no purpose. There is no operation to be performed by the Son or the Holy Spirit that cannot be unilaterally willed by the Father, However, neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit can take unilateral action (as you have pointed out) therefore the sum of the parts never exceed the whole, functionally there is no overarching requirement for the trinity other than to confer a divinity status on one of the triad not previously attained...on the Son ..that is.

I can see you have limited understanding about what I'm insinuating since.

Let me refresh myself for the last time.
Trinity was derived from these words Three(Tri)-in-Unity

Three entities in ONE PERSON
NB: one person in three dImensions NOT three persons in three dimensions.

*The question now is, who are these three entities who makes up this Unity?
The Father....
The Son....
The Holyspirit....

*Another question is, who are these entities personally?
*The Father....God Himself
*The Son....the word of the Father whom through the Father created the universe and sent into the world in a person of Jesus Christ
*The Holyspirit.....the Spirit of Father Himself.

*Last question is, was the Son & the Holyspirit exist on their own?
Definitely No! They strickly came forth from the Father Himself and act with all the uniquness of The Father.

NB: If you have power to put Your word into action it represent you anywhere anytime
*And if you have power to send forth your own spirit it is also you anytime anywhere.

Isaiah who says our God is one he's absolutely correct but God who revealed Himself in two ways I.e in His own word & His own Spirit.

Even Apostle Paul & John also said Our God is one.
The perspectives of Trinitarian is how God the Father has revealed Himself to mankind.
Col 2:9 "AMP:For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].

ESV:For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

KJV:For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

NASB:For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

NIV:For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
So without fully understand the issue of Trinity you will confuse.

I have only one God not Three....
Matt 28:19 "AMP:Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

ESV:Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

KJV:Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

NASB:Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

NIV:Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Instead of you browsing Internet looking whether Trinity is true or not sit down and read your Bible yourself.


Shalom!

Sarassin: I take your point but I do not agree fully.
The verses you have quoted do bear you out and I agree God alone can rightly be called the creator.
In my view it is the Apostle Paul who ascribes to Jesus the power of divine creator, a doctrine fleshed out in the Book of John.
The Book of Genesis and the statements of Isaiah are absolute and unequivocal without ambiguity.

We agree to disagree...

@bold how can you relate those Isaiah verses with John chapter 1?

-

Sarassin: Again, it's all a play on word

When it suits you ....it's Jesus, when it doesn't suit you it's the audible voice of God or a perishable seed. Where is the consistency ? The substitution of word for Jesus is sufficiently eclectic, afterall it could be argued that in 1 kings 12:22 it was in fact Jesus who came unto Shemaiah, it would make sense since according to the Book of John, Jesus pre-existed and would therefore presumably be active, the point is who is the arbiter ? Your interpretations are entirely subjective, it is also a microcosm of the folly of the assumptions of generic usage of terms to fit a pre-conceived worldview.

The challenge was to deduce the doctrine of the Trinity from a stand-alone verse within the Bible without the use of 1 John 5:7-8, so far, it is a failure.

Alright, I wonder how you intepret your own Bible. The verse that I quoted above 1peter 1:23 did it call Jesus the word of God or not? I never made a point without Biblical quote.

Now the verse you mention 1king 12:22 see it.
"AMP:But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

ESV:But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God:

KJV:But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

NASB:But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

NIV:But this word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God:

AMP, KJV & NASB both end the verse with a word "SAYING", whereas the rest still wrote it as the former phrase "the word of God came"

Did Shemiah hear the word or not?

Now let me ask you this, Who is word became flesh in John 1:?14?

I have explained how God put His word into action (which is not speaking to anybody) in creation's time...

You said apostle Paul copy John did Peter & Isaiah also copy each other?

JMAN05: I dont think so. Please check the word in the dictionary. it means a set of three people. it is not tri-in-unity. unless you are propounding another theory base on your understanding. however, the word trinity may not accomodate the present understanding you have.

Is it not obvious that the bible doesnt accomodate this teaching?

why simple English is so hard for you to conceived? I wrote Tri(three)-in-unity is it animals' that belong to that group?

Trinity was derived from that break down....

Tri-in-unity, and Tri means Three simple fact.
Or three things as One.

Sarassin: @ Emusan, You say;

"No contradiction their only when you can recognize that Jesus is the Word of God.
"

This is nothing more than a play on the word, word if you can excuse my pun.
Are we to assume that every occasion the term word of God occurs in the Bible it is a reference to Jesus ? Please clarify

Instances;

1 kings 12:22 But this the word of God came unto Shemaiah
1 Chronicles 17:3 But that night the word of God came to Nathan
Joel 1:1 The word of the Lord that came to Joel son of Pethuel
Jeremiah 2:1 The word of the Lord came to me....

It goes on ad infinitio

My points are very clear in above only for you to digest them that left.

"The word of God came to me" this phrase should tell you that God is speaking to people in a clear audible voice. WHICH IS totally different from when God put HIS own WORD INTO ACTION like in creation time Isaiah 48:13, 45:12, and when He made the same WORD became FLESH John 1:14

Though some cases are in the Bible where Christ is being called the literal word of God but in a distinct ways I.e
1Peter 1:23 " AMP:You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.

ESV:since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

KJV:Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

NIV:For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Here where the "word of God" appeared you can simply replace it with Jesus Christ.

Shalom!

Sarassin: The contradictions remain. The creation story monologue of Genesis 1 bears this out, a litany of thirty odd verses and not a hint of delegation, not a reference to a pre-existing Son who might have helped with creation. Your assertion that it is no contradiction 'cos he gave power and direction to Jesus whom he used...... is your opinion, if it were so, it would have been stated in Genesis in the beginning, or do we propose that the good Lord forgot and simply instructed John and the Apostle Paul to remind us all ? I doubt that

Even if I concede your argument, which I do not, It still remains a huge leap of faith to conclusively attest provenance of a trinity.

No contradiction their only when you can recognize that Jesus is the Word of God.

@JMAN
you tried only that you miss it when you said God first created the Son then created everything through Him.

Those Isaiah verses and Genesis make it clear that God didn't create the universe after created The Son.
The question is how did God create the universe through Jesus?

Heb 11:2 says "through faith we believed that the whole worlds was framed by the word of God..." and Gen 1 confirmed this statement when we read "....and God says let there be..."
Isaiah 48:13 make it more clearer "AMP:Yes, My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together [to execute My decrees].

ESV:My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

KJV:Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

NASB:“Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

NIV:My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.
Any verse(s) that say God the world are correct likewise the ones which through Jesus Christ like Heb 1:2, Ephe 3:9. That is why John said in John 1:3 AMP:All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

ESV:All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

KJV:All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

NASB:All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

NIV:Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The word and God cannot be seperated. John 1:1
and the word is God; this word was only given a name after it became flesh.
God made It(the word) to be self existing John 5:26 "AMP:For even as the Father has life in Himself and is self-existent, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself and be self-existent.

ESV:For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

KJV:For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

NASB:For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

NIV:For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
AMP explain it better.
The next verse then says The (Father) then gave Him[Son] the authority to execute judgement.
NB: He possesses all the ATTRIBUTES of God, He share names with God Isaiah 9:6 [b]"
AMP:For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.

ESV:For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

KJV:For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

NASB:For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

NIV:For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
That is why whenever Jesus is in operations He is also called God.[/b] which God never allows even Angel to be called.

With all these you will know who Jesus really is.

In any operations of Jesus He was also called God Titus 2:13 AMP:Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

ESV:waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

KJV:Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

NASB:looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

NIV:while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

So its left for you to decide who Jesus really Is.

Shalom!

JMAN05: then you are no longer talking about trinity cos the father is greater than them. You cant be equal h the person who is greater than you.

again as you said, you cant act without his instruction, as such you are subject to Him. For the fact that the Father can act without your instruction shows that He is not your equal. in fact "equality" and "greater than" are two contradictory words to use for persons.

I cant be equal to you and as well greater than you. how do you see that? research again.

Remember The word TRINITY simply means Tri(three)-in - Unity. It is explanation that brought in the major confusion i.e equal in person. But Trinity should be like this God who has revealed Himself to mankind by His own word and continue to dwell with us through His own Spirit.

JMAN05: I dont really get ur position cosit seem to be different from others.

Are you in effect stating that Jesus and Holy Spirit are part of God but not equal to the almighty. just like a hand, a nose is part of you but not equal to you?

explain.

My point about Trinity maybe different/the same to anyone's view/point but I didnt claim it is universer, is how I understand it from my Bible so far.

God; the Father......is the only God.
The Son.....is the word of the Father whose Father made It to become flesh and sent to what the word created & polluted to purified them in other to reconcile any of the creations who believes in Him to Himself.
The Holyspirit......Is the spirit of the Father.

Both of them have equality in power, action, omnipresent, e.t.c with Father because they reveal true Father in any of their oppration and always with God which make them God too but the Father is greater than them because without instruction from the Father both can't act.

Remember I said what I've understood so far in Bible

Shalom!

Sarassn: No, again it's a fudge. Through the mouth of the prophet Isaiah we have the words of God saying ...I am the first and the last Isaiah 44:24 is a continuation of this theme as is Gen 1:1. John 1:10 is an expression of the author of John, lofty and laudable though it is, it does not amount to provenance of a trinity. If anything at all, he contradicts the words of the prophet Isaiah.

Did you get my point at? I'm taking my point from who created the universe and you're there making another point. If John 1:10 is an expression, was it written for fun or about the WORD that became flesh?

The reason I said you should read those verses was that, if those verses claim that God created the universe alone and some said He ccreated by/through Jesus. How did God create it through Jesus?