₦airaland Forum

Sarassin: I am not what you are getting at as I fail to see how John 1:10 advances the cause of the Trinity.
I am very clear that I consider the doctrine of Trinity or any derivative thereof, superfluous
I hope that is clear understanding enough for you.

John 1:10 says "He(Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by Him(Jesus), and the world knew Him(Jesus) not"

Gen 1:1 & Isaiah 44:24. In these verses God claims responsibilty of creating the universe Himself. Read those verses and compare it with John 1:10.

[quote author=ayenny02?]Story of Jesus Christ was 'fabricated to pacify the poor', claims controversial Biblical scholar


A controversial American biblical scholar is set to make his first appearance in London next week to present a discovery that he claims proves the story of Jesus Christ was invented as a system of mind control to enslave the poor.

Joseph Atwill, who is the author of a book entitled 'Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus', asserts that Christianity did not begin as a religion, but was actually a sophisticated government propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire.

At the 'Covert Messiah' conference, to be held at the Conway Hall in Holborn a week on Saturday, Mr Atwill will present his theory that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they entirely fabricated the story of Jesus Christ.

Outlining his ideas in a blog posting on his website Mr Atwill writes: "Christianity may be considered a religion, but it was actually developed and used as a system of mind control to produce slaves that believed God decreed their slavery."

Mr Atwill says that acts of insurrection by Jewish sects, who were awaiting the arrival of a so-called 'warrior Messiah' in Palestine, were a perpetual problem for the Roman Empire and that after the Empire had exhausted all traditional means of dealing with the problem they resorted to psychological warfare.

"They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system," Atwill told PRWeb.com

"That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented.

"Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

Mr Atwill continues: "Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history.

To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."

Elsewhere, Mr Atwill also writes: “In fact he [Jesus] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”

Atwill says he made his discovery when while studying the New Testament alongside the 'War of the Jews' by Josephus - the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea.

Mr Atwill claims that he began to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts.

"What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus," Atwill claims.

"This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern", he continues.

"The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar."

Richard Dawkins, the English evolutionary biologist and author, well known for his anti-religion views, yesterday tweeted a link to the press release advertising the event in London.

However, he later tweeted: "RT doesn't imply endorsement. I'm not qualified to judge Atwill's thesis. Just thought it might be worth a look."

Mr Atwill's theory is simply one of a number of what are known as Bible conspiracy theories.

These theories commonly include the suggestion that secret societies, mystery schools and other religions used the fictional story of Christ to unify the Roman Empire under one state religion.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/story-of-jesus-christ-was-fabricated-to-pacify-the-poor-claims-controversial-biblical-scholar-8870879.html[/quote]You have guilt to post this?
I said it Muslims are the most confused set of people.
You forgot that Allah said He's the one who sent Jesus. Now if Allah sent Jesus and the story of Jesus is a fabricated one that should tell you that Allah is a liar -though he was! sorry for that but you caused it.

Always think before you post anything against Christian because it'll always back fire on you.

Shalom!

Sarassin: And therein lies the entire problem with Christianity. The creation of another gospel to accommodate a doctrine that was conceived as a response to orthodoxy-defined heretics. Nowhere in the Bible has God proposed such a doctrine. 1 John 5:7-8 has been shown to be an insertion, no other verses in the NT or OT bears out the doctrine of the trinity. Actually there really is no problem in adherents creating their own beliefs, the problem is in trying to pass off the traditions of men as the work of God.

What does your respond has to do with my post or did I say you Op is wrong?

If that verse is inserted what happen to John 1:10
is better you leave copy and paste work from net, and sit down and read your Bible with clear understanding.

Shalom!

Sarassin: Thus says the Lord, King of Israel…..I am the first and I am the last. Besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6) In this simple elegant incontrovertible statement the primacy and uniqueness of the God of Israel is established. How has Christianity found itself with the doctrine of Trinity found in 1 John 5:7-8

Quite simply, the doctrine of trinity was the direct result of early church leaders confronting what was considered by them to be heretical beliefs by gnostic sects, and the need to explain the newly divine Jesus in the light of monotheism.

Jewish Christians, the Ebionites were adamant there was only One God and Jesus was not God, he was human, For Jesus to be God, it means there are two Gods.

The Marcionites took the opposite view. Jesus wasn’t human precisely because he was God, they didn’t subscribe to the belief that there were two Gods, but that the God of Israel was clearly different.

Then there was Sabellianism, named after Sabellius who was excommunicated for his views, it went something like this; God has different modes of existence, i.e, I am a son in relation to my father, a father in relationship to my son, and a husband in relationship to my wife. Not three people but one person defined by different relationships.

No matter, Tertullian declared all these viewpoints, heretical, saying ‘’ The father is one, and the son is one, and the spirit is one, they are distinct from one another…..’’ Tertullian asserts that even though the three personages in the Godhead are distinct, they are not different in substance, all are God, he propounds ‘’the unity of the trinity’’

The problem that Anti-deity of Jesus have is asking themselves simple question (s ).

When we are talking about Trinity, did we claim that Father is a God, Son is a God and Holyspirit is also a God? No! They simply mean Father who has revealed Himself to His own creations through His own word in a person of Jesus Christ and continue to relate with them through His own Spirit. Very simple.

Both Jesus and Holy spirit are part of God in which nothing can seperate them. Whenever they (Jesus & Holy spirit) are in operations they put God into action without God leaving His throne.

God created the universe through His own word, cursed the whole creations through His own Word, and redeemed and reconcilled them to Himself through His own Word again. In these three phases of work the Holyspirit took a special role too.

Now if you think Trinity means Jesus can do anything on His own it's a lie likewise Holy spirit.

Shalom!

ooman: and from what did this intelligent being come?

You never cease in asking this childish question. Can you once think outside creation?

God created you with an eyes to see but limits your vision to only physical things.

Do you think your limited brain can fully understand this God? In a thread "scientist talks about their faith" you're trying to say those born atheist later converted to Christian are deluded. Now if some atheist born scientist converted to christianity and some christian born person/a pastor later missed the road, why can't you ask yourself this simple and very deep heart searching question. Why is it so or what is the missing link? Think about it Bro.

Shalom!

joel lala: Thank you...But what do you do when you are in such situation were you are being forced to speak in tongues? do you just walk away or you pretend to speak? Am just thinking aloud

Well what I usually do is that I will try to allow the spirit of God to move in me. When It moves I will be connected but once It doesn't I will just cintinue to pray because I can't force myself to speak in tongues. No need to pretend.

Shalom!

Pastor Olu T: I will not use the compulsory or must for its a choice and ur freewill still remain as a Choice very imperative that every xtian Christian speak in tongue. First u have to understand what speaking in tongue really is!

Well said...,but let me chip in some points.
Speaking in tongues is a greater evidence that someone has received Holyghost baptis....it means you can't be baptized with Holyghost without speaking in tongues.

In that 1Corin 12&14 where Apostle Paul spoke about speaking in touguea.....people usually misinterpret that chapter.

In the chapters, Two(2) types of tongues were deacribed (1) Personal usage/benefit, (2) General usage/benefit.

The first can be seen in these two verses 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

These two verses clearly teach that anyone who speaks in tongues speak mystery because nobody understood him/her.

While Apostle Paul strickly emphasized on how using tongues to delivere a message(s) to the church....then by doing this you need interpretation either by you or another gifted person.

Fanally, 1 Corin 12:3 says "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
This is the major reason why Christian need to be baptized with Holy ghost and once you are being baptized with It you can speak anywhere as the Spirit gives auttrance NOT as you were taught or directed by anybody BUT only when you're being moved by the Spirit.

In a case when you're in a program and the coordinator ask you to begins speak in tongues just know within you that Spirit of God must first move before such can happen.

Shalom!

The truth sayr: Am sorry for saying this becoz i dnt knw if it may hurt some1. The real/correct bible was changed by ancient chriatian leaders, after changing it, they then hide the real bible of prophet ISAH(jesus{a.s}) so that we the end people will not see the truth about God and his Messengers. Beer with me, just think, have u ever seen where Qur'an verse was changed? or even a single alphabet was changed from the holy Qur'an?. I can remember this year(about last 4-5month) that was shown in many satelite chanel medias that 1 of the hidden real bible is in TURKEY, but the holders request for a great amout of money for each page of it for them to release it, but i dont knw why no1 cares about it again. Pls and please am sorry if it hurts u, thank u for beering with me.........

I can't just laughing at Muslim people
Sura 5:117 says Jesus died but by checking another version is another thing.

The version that I read says "....when you cause me to die" I'm still looking for the person who translated it.

Two versions maulana & ahadees says the same thing but some version has change the phrase "....cause me to die" to "...when you took me up"

A Muslim guy once said there is no verse in the quran which says so, when I show him the one I read he resolted to misinterpretation.. I was just laughing.

Shalom!

OLAADEGBU: Job stated,

"[God] made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder" (Job 28:26).

Centuries later, scientists began to discern the "decrees [rules] for the rain." Rainfall is part of a process called the "water cycle." The sun evaporates water from the ocean. The water vapour then rises and becomes clouds. This water in the clouds falls back to earth as rain, and collects in streams and rivers, then makes its way back to the ocean. That process repeats itself again and again. About 300 years ago, Galileo discovered this cycle. But amazingly the Scriptures described it centuries before. The prophet Amos (9:6) wrote that God "calls for the water of the sea, and pours them out upon the face of the earth." Scientists are just beginning to fully understand God’s "decrees for the rain."

[From, The Evidence Bible] -> http:///1bEnd2s

Even staying of water in atmosphere goes again the law of gravity. The vapour will be solidified before comes down as rain yet the ice won't fall down at once.

Job also provided us the answer in Job 26:8 "He boundeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them"

You're right op but how come on earth can someone claims to be a Christian for more than two years without experience God's manifestation?

Many verses in the Bible made it clear that God can reveal Himself to us, which keeps many in the faith till today.

I will just say christians should strive harder to experience this manifestation.

God exists but christian needs to know/find God beyond faith by experience Him.

Shalom!

Samboot: there's another thing common to the muslims, I don't know whether anyone else has noticed that, if U avn't, then start to take note frm today.. Wen U pple are talk'n abt trinnity the question they always ask is, ''TELL US WHERE JESUS SAID IN THE BIBLE THAT I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME'' have U noticed that too.. Wen I ask a muslim child in my area he told me that it was there alphas that taught them that weneva christains are talking abt trinity tthey should always ask us that question.. Can U all see that these pple are where am going, u muslim are jux being mis-guilded, have a turn arround and embrace christ!! Shalom#

On the point of Trinity it's a great mistake on Muhammad's part to say Christian worshipend three God. I read Qur'an and I saw it there. He even went further to say they worship Mary as God. Where he finally killed his message is when he said Jesus didn't die.

Anyway let's continue to pray for them rather than this comparison.

Shalom!

F00028: christianity:
death to followers of other religions -
(Exodus 22:20)

just one person worships another god?–
death TO ENTIRE TOWN (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

don't listen to priests? – death
(Deuteronomy 17:12)

gay? – death (Leviticus 20:13)

do a little astrology? – death (Leviticus
20:27)

fool around? – death (Leviticus 20:10)

priest’s daughter fool around? – death
(Leviticus 21:9)

KILL nonbelievers - : (2 Chronicles
15:12-13)

fake pastors? – death (Zechariah 13:3 )

not a virgin on your wedding night? –
death (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

blasphemy? – death (Leviticus 24:10-16)

disrespectful children – death (2 Kings
2:23-24)

and many, many, many more…

oh yeah, and Jesus says: "Think not that I
am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but
to FULFILL" . (Mathew 5:17)

SMH.....If Muhammad claims that the God who sent Abraham, Moses, Jesus and others Prophets is the one who sent him......don't you know you don't have right to speak against YHWH....about anything in the Bible?

I wonder why it is difficult for you people to say Christian & Muslim are serving the same God yet you people will continue to accused God's action in the Bible when it was confirmed in your book that what happened to past generations is from God.

@Op...you really tried but not by doing this that will make them to believe in Jesus as the savoir of the world rather by continue to put light on reason why Jesus came to this world because their book comfirms everything about Jesus......let them realise that.

Shalom!

ooman: what testimony?

The kind of Op one......

Still waiting for that day.........

ooman: Why callest thou onto me?

I am always here, and i look forward to the day god will be totally rid off the human community!

I callest thou just to know how you're feeling man

Just always remember me in your prayer when your testimony comes.

honeychild: How intelligent and enlightened.

So far we have seen people who hold Ph.ds in biochemistry, geology, theoretical physics, a kidney specialist, a quantum physicist and a professor of neurophysiology.

Ooman, when you have achieved even a fraction of their academic achievements, then you can feel free to comment on the state of their minds.

Haven't you noticed that the more intelligent atheists: mazaje, plaetton, your big brother and hero logicboy have left this thread alone?

Don't mind Ooman........jare he's a professor that's why!

ooman: and the evidence you have for that is some deluded scientists right?

its high time you started thinking about who designed the god who designed you.

Ooman Ooman where are thou?

Your testimony of such is on the way.......just remember me in your prayer when it fully comes.

JMAN05: Capitalization is the concept of the translator, not the original.

Jesus is God but not almighty God.

But to understand you. what is your definition of trinity?

Are you saying that Jesus was Godman, ie he was still God almighty while on earth?

@bold
If Jesus Christ is God but not Almighty God, how many God do you have then?
Even Isaiah says He is Almighty likewise Revelation
Your own logic worst pass Trinitarian.

The major misconceptions about God it's manifestation in three ways. God is one but He has manifested Himself in three ways.

God.....is the Father Himself
Son......the spoken WORD of Father whom the Father sent into the world in the person of Jesus (that's why Jesus posesses all the attributes of the Father)
HolySpirit......is the Spirit of the Father Himself.

God has power to change His own word into being and exalted Him, likewise He has the power to put His own Spirit into action/sent forth His own spirit unlike human being

This can be illustrated to a man whose his loved one wanted to travel and the man said "I will go with you in spirit" what will happen is that he(man) will only keep the person in mind simply because he didn't have the power to send his own spirit to monitor the person. But God can do both at the same time.

Note: this is what I have understood about Trinity....I'm not argue or make you subscribe to my own point but if you people can read Bible without copy and paste work on net then you will know Trinity exist.

Shalom!

Empiree: My early pos was meant to show you that islam define the mystery easily. . However, we believe that Angels are spirits. According to Quran, each human being has spirits by their right and left sides. The one on the right writes down our good deeds. While left spirit writes down bad deeds. They are by our sides since we were born. And they will depart when we die. But this are not the spirit christians are referring to. These left and right side spirits can not be seen and they are not God. God created them. I hope you understand islamic perspective here.

@bold to be in line with intent of Op,
Is God;
*a spirit
*a being
*a force...?

Or for simplicity, what is God as per Islam?

A passenger has made an emergency landing
at Humberside Airport after the plane's pilot
became ill.
During the flight, the pilot made a distress call
when he became so sick he was unable to
continuing flying the light aircraft.
Two flight instructors were called in to talk to
the passenger from the ground while he took
control of the plane, an airport spokesman
said.
The man had very limited flying experience and
had never landed an aircraft before.
Despite this, he managed to successfully land
at the North Lincolnshire airport just after
7.30pm.
"The passenger flew over the airport a couple
of times and then was talked down by two
flight instructors and the emergency services
were waiting for them when he landed safely,"
the airport spokesman said.
Details of the pilot's condition are not known
at this stage, police said.
The light aircraft took off from Sandtoft
Airfield, near Doncaster, for training with one
passenger.

Source: skynews

ifeness: You are dull because you refuse to think.

Like you better than some people here.......

How can you worship a god you cannot prove its existence?

Who told you God cannot be proved?

you are sick!

From a Rational mind.


Have you ever ask yourself, what makes people change overtime?

Many Christian have changed to atheism and other religions, like many atheist have become Christian........

Then, what is the missing link?

Ohibenemma: I strongly disagree with RoyPCAIN; Jesus is alive, TODAY, as clearly shown in the bible and as is evident in our lives today.

I join this thread bcod of this statement, no Muslims can prove this wrong even Jesus' deity.

Shalom!

Empiree: @ Emusan, No, sir. the son of mary doesn't have such Attributes. God can not, will not and is not equal to His creation.

I now understand the area you're talking from. Sorry those attributes are not in your book.
Try to read Bible yourself.

Shalom!

Empiree: You guys seem confused. I think you really need to define "God" first. His functions etc. I can help you guys. God is a Supreme Being that created the whole universe including man and jinn and angel. God is He who created seen and unseen. And this God is One. God is not restricted to certain location and God can not be seen at all on this earth. God Has no limit. Hes everywhere (by His Knowledge). God is close to us than our jagular vein. God does not have a God or anyone to command Him. He alone commands. "He" (God) does not sleep nor slumber. He is Eternal and Absolute and Self Sufficient. God can not be in His creation. He is above seven Heaven. God can not be tempted. God is not born and He doesn't begets either. Jesus on the other hand is a full human being. Born of virgin Mary. Completely separate from his Creator, God. In another word, Jesus was a prophet of God. Spirits are Angels. Therefore, they too, are God's creation. This is islam definition of God from His creation. I hope this clear the air. Pls forgive me for jumping into your discussion. I thought it was necessary. Thank you

Brother you're too foward. Try to understand Op point of view. Does Jesus not also posess the above attributes?

Shalom!

fckmn24seg: march 28, forever Aries

Too far ...