₦airaland Forum

Sarassin: I take your point but I do not agree fully.
The verses you have quoted do bear you out and I agree God alone can rightly be called the creator.
In my view it is the Apostle Paul who ascribes to Jesus the power of divine creator, a doctrine fleshed out in the Book of John.
The Book of Genesis and the statements of Isaiah are absolute and unequivocal without ambiguity.

We agree to disagree...

@bold how can you relate those Isaiah verses with John chapter 1?

-

Sarassin: Again, it's all a play on word

When it suits you ....it's Jesus, when it doesn't suit you it's the audible voice of God or a perishable seed. Where is the consistency ? The substitution of word for Jesus is sufficiently eclectic, afterall it could be argued that in 1 kings 12:22 it was in fact Jesus who came unto Shemaiah, it would make sense since according to the Book of John, Jesus pre-existed and would therefore presumably be active, the point is who is the arbiter ? Your interpretations are entirely subjective, it is also a microcosm of the folly of the assumptions of generic usage of terms to fit a pre-conceived worldview.

The challenge was to deduce the doctrine of the Trinity from a stand-alone verse within the Bible without the use of 1 John 5:7-8, so far, it is a failure.

Alright, I wonder how you intepret your own Bible. The verse that I quoted above 1peter 1:23 did it call Jesus the word of God or not? I never made a point without Biblical quote.

Now the verse you mention 1king 12:22 see it.
"AMP:But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

ESV:But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God:

KJV:But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

NASB:But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

NIV:But this word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God:

AMP, KJV & NASB both end the verse with a word "SAYING", whereas the rest still wrote it as the former phrase "the word of God came"

Did Shemiah hear the word or not?

Now let me ask you this, Who is word became flesh in John 1:?14?

I have explained how God put His word into action (which is not speaking to anybody) in creation's time...

You said apostle Paul copy John did Peter & Isaiah also copy each other?

JMAN05: I dont think so. Please check the word in the dictionary. it means a set of three people. it is not tri-in-unity. unless you are propounding another theory base on your understanding. however, the word trinity may not accomodate the present understanding you have.

Is it not obvious that the bible doesnt accomodate this teaching?

why simple English is so hard for you to conceived? I wrote Tri(three)-in-unity is it animals' that belong to that group?

Trinity was derived from that break down....

Tri-in-unity, and Tri means Three simple fact.
Or three things as One.

Sarassin: @ Emusan, You say;

"No contradiction their only when you can recognize that Jesus is the Word of God.
"

This is nothing more than a play on the word, word if you can excuse my pun.
Are we to assume that every occasion the term word of God occurs in the Bible it is a reference to Jesus ? Please clarify

Instances;

1 kings 12:22 But this the word of God came unto Shemaiah
1 Chronicles 17:3 But that night the word of God came to Nathan
Joel 1:1 The word of the Lord that came to Joel son of Pethuel
Jeremiah 2:1 The word of the Lord came to me....

It goes on ad infinitio

My points are very clear in above only for you to digest them that left.

"The word of God came to me" this phrase should tell you that God is speaking to people in a clear audible voice. WHICH IS totally different from when God put HIS own WORD INTO ACTION like in creation time Isaiah 48:13, 45:12, and when He made the same WORD became FLESH John 1:14

Though some cases are in the Bible where Christ is being called the literal word of God but in a distinct ways I.e
1Peter 1:23 " AMP:You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.

ESV:since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

KJV:Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

NIV:For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Here where the "word of God" appeared you can simply replace it with Jesus Christ.

Shalom!

Sarassin: The contradictions remain. The creation story monologue of Genesis 1 bears this out, a litany of thirty odd verses and not a hint of delegation, not a reference to a pre-existing Son who might have helped with creation. Your assertion that it is no contradiction 'cos he gave power and direction to Jesus whom he used...... is your opinion, if it were so, it would have been stated in Genesis in the beginning, or do we propose that the good Lord forgot and simply instructed John and the Apostle Paul to remind us all ? I doubt that

Even if I concede your argument, which I do not, It still remains a huge leap of faith to conclusively attest provenance of a trinity.

No contradiction their only when you can recognize that Jesus is the Word of God.

@JMAN
you tried only that you miss it when you said God first created the Son then created everything through Him.

Those Isaiah verses and Genesis make it clear that God didn't create the universe after created The Son.
The question is how did God create the universe through Jesus?

Heb 11:2 says "through faith we believed that the whole worlds was framed by the word of God..." and Gen 1 confirmed this statement when we read "....and God says let there be..."
Isaiah 48:13 make it more clearer "AMP:Yes, My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together [to execute My decrees].

ESV:My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

KJV:Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

NASB:“Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

NIV:My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.
Any verse(s) that say God the world are correct likewise the ones which through Jesus Christ like Heb 1:2, Ephe 3:9. That is why John said in John 1:3 AMP:All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

ESV:All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

KJV:All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

NASB:All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

NIV:Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The word and God cannot be seperated. John 1:1
and the word is God; this word was only given a name after it became flesh.
God made It(the word) to be self existing John 5:26 "AMP:For even as the Father has life in Himself and is self-existent, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself and be self-existent.

ESV:For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

KJV:For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

NASB:For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

NIV:For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
AMP explain it better.
The next verse then says The (Father) then gave Him[Son] the authority to execute judgement.
NB: He possesses all the ATTRIBUTES of God, He share names with God Isaiah 9:6 [b]"
AMP:For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.

ESV:For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

KJV:For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

NASB:For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

NIV:For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
That is why whenever Jesus is in operations He is also called God.[/b] which God never allows even Angel to be called.

With all these you will know who Jesus really is.

In any operations of Jesus He was also called God Titus 2:13 AMP:Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

ESV:waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

KJV:Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

NASB:looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

NIV:while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

So its left for you to decide who Jesus really Is.

Shalom!

JMAN05: then you are no longer talking about trinity cos the father is greater than them. You cant be equal h the person who is greater than you.

again as you said, you cant act without his instruction, as such you are subject to Him. For the fact that the Father can act without your instruction shows that He is not your equal. in fact "equality" and "greater than" are two contradictory words to use for persons.

I cant be equal to you and as well greater than you. how do you see that? research again.

Remember The word TRINITY simply means Tri(three)-in - Unity. It is explanation that brought in the major confusion i.e equal in person. But Trinity should be like this God who has revealed Himself to mankind by His own word and continue to dwell with us through His own Spirit.

JMAN05: I dont really get ur position cosit seem to be different from others.

Are you in effect stating that Jesus and Holy Spirit are part of God but not equal to the almighty. just like a hand, a nose is part of you but not equal to you?

explain.

My point about Trinity maybe different/the same to anyone's view/point but I didnt claim it is universer, is how I understand it from my Bible so far.

God; the Father......is the only God.
The Son.....is the word of the Father whose Father made It to become flesh and sent to what the word created & polluted to purified them in other to reconcile any of the creations who believes in Him to Himself.
The Holyspirit......Is the spirit of the Father.

Both of them have equality in power, action, omnipresent, e.t.c with Father because they reveal true Father in any of their oppration and always with God which make them God too but the Father is greater than them because without instruction from the Father both can't act.

Remember I said what I've understood so far in Bible

Shalom!

Sarassn: No, again it's a fudge. Through the mouth of the prophet Isaiah we have the words of God saying ...I am the first and the last Isaiah 44:24 is a continuation of this theme as is Gen 1:1. John 1:10 is an expression of the author of John, lofty and laudable though it is, it does not amount to provenance of a trinity. If anything at all, he contradicts the words of the prophet Isaiah.

Did you get my point at? I'm taking my point from who created the universe and you're there making another point. If John 1:10 is an expression, was it written for fun or about the WORD that became flesh?

The reason I said you should read those verses was that, if those verses claim that God created the universe alone and some said He ccreated by/through Jesus. How did God create it through Jesus?

Sarassin: I am not what you are getting at as I fail to see how John 1:10 advances the cause of the Trinity.
I am very clear that I consider the doctrine of Trinity or any derivative thereof, superfluous
I hope that is clear understanding enough for you.

John 1:10 says "He(Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by Him(Jesus), and the world knew Him(Jesus) not"

Gen 1:1 & Isaiah 44:24. In these verses God claims responsibilty of creating the universe Himself. Read those verses and compare it with John 1:10.

[quote author=ayenny02?]Story of Jesus Christ was 'fabricated to pacify the poor', claims controversial Biblical scholar


A controversial American biblical scholar is set to make his first appearance in London next week to present a discovery that he claims proves the story of Jesus Christ was invented as a system of mind control to enslave the poor.

Joseph Atwill, who is the author of a book entitled 'Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus', asserts that Christianity did not begin as a religion, but was actually a sophisticated government propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire.

At the 'Covert Messiah' conference, to be held at the Conway Hall in Holborn a week on Saturday, Mr Atwill will present his theory that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they entirely fabricated the story of Jesus Christ.

Outlining his ideas in a blog posting on his website Mr Atwill writes: "Christianity may be considered a religion, but it was actually developed and used as a system of mind control to produce slaves that believed God decreed their slavery."

Mr Atwill says that acts of insurrection by Jewish sects, who were awaiting the arrival of a so-called 'warrior Messiah' in Palestine, were a perpetual problem for the Roman Empire and that after the Empire had exhausted all traditional means of dealing with the problem they resorted to psychological warfare.

"They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system," Atwill told PRWeb.com

"That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented.

"Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

Mr Atwill continues: "Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history.

To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."

Elsewhere, Mr Atwill also writes: “In fact he [Jesus] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”

Atwill says he made his discovery when while studying the New Testament alongside the 'War of the Jews' by Josephus - the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea.

Mr Atwill claims that he began to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts.

"What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus," Atwill claims.

"This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern", he continues.

"The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar."

Richard Dawkins, the English evolutionary biologist and author, well known for his anti-religion views, yesterday tweeted a link to the press release advertising the event in London.

However, he later tweeted: "RT doesn't imply endorsement. I'm not qualified to judge Atwill's thesis. Just thought it might be worth a look."

Mr Atwill's theory is simply one of a number of what are known as Bible conspiracy theories.

These theories commonly include the suggestion that secret societies, mystery schools and other religions used the fictional story of Christ to unify the Roman Empire under one state religion.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/story-of-jesus-christ-was-fabricated-to-pacify-the-poor-claims-controversial-biblical-scholar-8870879.html[/quote]You have guilt to post this?
I said it Muslims are the most confused set of people.
You forgot that Allah said He's the one who sent Jesus. Now if Allah sent Jesus and the story of Jesus is a fabricated one that should tell you that Allah is a liar -though he was! sorry for that but you caused it.

Always think before you post anything against Christian because it'll always back fire on you.

Shalom!

Sarassin: And therein lies the entire problem with Christianity. The creation of another gospel to accommodate a doctrine that was conceived as a response to orthodoxy-defined heretics. Nowhere in the Bible has God proposed such a doctrine. 1 John 5:7-8 has been shown to be an insertion, no other verses in the NT or OT bears out the doctrine of the trinity. Actually there really is no problem in adherents creating their own beliefs, the problem is in trying to pass off the traditions of men as the work of God.

What does your respond has to do with my post or did I say you Op is wrong?

If that verse is inserted what happen to John 1:10
is better you leave copy and paste work from net, and sit down and read your Bible with clear understanding.

Shalom!

Sarassin: Thus says the Lord, King of Israel…..I am the first and I am the last. Besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6) In this simple elegant incontrovertible statement the primacy and uniqueness of the God of Israel is established. How has Christianity found itself with the doctrine of Trinity found in 1 John 5:7-8

Quite simply, the doctrine of trinity was the direct result of early church leaders confronting what was considered by them to be heretical beliefs by gnostic sects, and the need to explain the newly divine Jesus in the light of monotheism.

Jewish Christians, the Ebionites were adamant there was only One God and Jesus was not God, he was human, For Jesus to be God, it means there are two Gods.

The Marcionites took the opposite view. Jesus wasn’t human precisely because he was God, they didn’t subscribe to the belief that there were two Gods, but that the God of Israel was clearly different.

Then there was Sabellianism, named after Sabellius who was excommunicated for his views, it went something like this; God has different modes of existence, i.e, I am a son in relation to my father, a father in relationship to my son, and a husband in relationship to my wife. Not three people but one person defined by different relationships.

No matter, Tertullian declared all these viewpoints, heretical, saying ‘’ The father is one, and the son is one, and the spirit is one, they are distinct from one another…..’’ Tertullian asserts that even though the three personages in the Godhead are distinct, they are not different in substance, all are God, he propounds ‘’the unity of the trinity’’

The problem that Anti-deity of Jesus have is asking themselves simple question (s ).

When we are talking about Trinity, did we claim that Father is a God, Son is a God and Holyspirit is also a God? No! They simply mean Father who has revealed Himself to His own creations through His own word in a person of Jesus Christ and continue to relate with them through His own Spirit. Very simple.

Both Jesus and Holy spirit are part of God in which nothing can seperate them. Whenever they (Jesus & Holy spirit) are in operations they put God into action without God leaving His throne.

God created the universe through His own word, cursed the whole creations through His own Word, and redeemed and reconcilled them to Himself through His own Word again. In these three phases of work the Holyspirit took a special role too.

Now if you think Trinity means Jesus can do anything on His own it's a lie likewise Holy spirit.

Shalom!

ooman: and from what did this intelligent being come?

You never cease in asking this childish question. Can you once think outside creation?

God created you with an eyes to see but limits your vision to only physical things.

Do you think your limited brain can fully understand this God? In a thread "scientist talks about their faith" you're trying to say those born atheist later converted to Christian are deluded. Now if some atheist born scientist converted to christianity and some christian born person/a pastor later missed the road, why can't you ask yourself this simple and very deep heart searching question. Why is it so or what is the missing link? Think about it Bro.

Shalom!

joel lala: Thank you...But what do you do when you are in such situation were you are being forced to speak in tongues? do you just walk away or you pretend to speak? Am just thinking aloud

Well what I usually do is that I will try to allow the spirit of God to move in me. When It moves I will be connected but once It doesn't I will just cintinue to pray because I can't force myself to speak in tongues. No need to pretend.

Shalom!

Pastor Olu T: I will not use the compulsory or must for its a choice and ur freewill still remain as a Choice very imperative that every xtian Christian speak in tongue. First u have to understand what speaking in tongue really is!

Well said...,but let me chip in some points.
Speaking in tongues is a greater evidence that someone has received Holyghost baptis....it means you can't be baptized with Holyghost without speaking in tongues.

In that 1Corin 12&14 where Apostle Paul spoke about speaking in touguea.....people usually misinterpret that chapter.

In the chapters, Two(2) types of tongues were deacribed (1) Personal usage/benefit, (2) General usage/benefit.

The first can be seen in these two verses 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

These two verses clearly teach that anyone who speaks in tongues speak mystery because nobody understood him/her.

While Apostle Paul strickly emphasized on how using tongues to delivere a message(s) to the church....then by doing this you need interpretation either by you or another gifted person.

Fanally, 1 Corin 12:3 says "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
This is the major reason why Christian need to be baptized with Holy ghost and once you are being baptized with It you can speak anywhere as the Spirit gives auttrance NOT as you were taught or directed by anybody BUT only when you're being moved by the Spirit.

In a case when you're in a program and the coordinator ask you to begins speak in tongues just know within you that Spirit of God must first move before such can happen.

Shalom!

The truth sayr: Am sorry for saying this becoz i dnt knw if it may hurt some1. The real/correct bible was changed by ancient chriatian leaders, after changing it, they then hide the real bible of prophet ISAH(jesus{a.s}) so that we the end people will not see the truth about God and his Messengers. Beer with me, just think, have u ever seen where Qur'an verse was changed? or even a single alphabet was changed from the holy Qur'an?. I can remember this year(about last 4-5month) that was shown in many satelite chanel medias that 1 of the hidden real bible is in TURKEY, but the holders request for a great amout of money for each page of it for them to release it, but i dont knw why no1 cares about it again. Pls and please am sorry if it hurts u, thank u for beering with me.........

I can't just laughing at Muslim people
Sura 5:117 says Jesus died but by checking another version is another thing.

The version that I read says "....when you cause me to die" I'm still looking for the person who translated it.

Two versions maulana & ahadees says the same thing but some version has change the phrase "....cause me to die" to "...when you took me up"

A Muslim guy once said there is no verse in the quran which says so, when I show him the one I read he resolted to misinterpretation.. I was just laughing.

Shalom!

OLAADEGBU: Job stated,

"[God] made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder" (Job 28:26).

Centuries later, scientists began to discern the "decrees [rules] for the rain." Rainfall is part of a process called the "water cycle." The sun evaporates water from the ocean. The water vapour then rises and becomes clouds. This water in the clouds falls back to earth as rain, and collects in streams and rivers, then makes its way back to the ocean. That process repeats itself again and again. About 300 years ago, Galileo discovered this cycle. But amazingly the Scriptures described it centuries before. The prophet Amos (9:6) wrote that God "calls for the water of the sea, and pours them out upon the face of the earth." Scientists are just beginning to fully understand God’s "decrees for the rain."

[From, The Evidence Bible] -> http:///1bEnd2s

Even staying of water in atmosphere goes again the law of gravity. The vapour will be solidified before comes down as rain yet the ice won't fall down at once.

Job also provided us the answer in Job 26:8 "He boundeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them"

You're right op but how come on earth can someone claims to be a Christian for more than two years without experience God's manifestation?

Many verses in the Bible made it clear that God can reveal Himself to us, which keeps many in the faith till today.

I will just say christians should strive harder to experience this manifestation.

God exists but christian needs to know/find God beyond faith by experience Him.

Shalom!

Samboot: there's another thing common to the muslims, I don't know whether anyone else has noticed that, if U avn't, then start to take note frm today.. Wen U pple are talk'n abt trinnity the question they always ask is, ''TELL US WHERE JESUS SAID IN THE BIBLE THAT I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME'' have U noticed that too.. Wen I ask a muslim child in my area he told me that it was there alphas that taught them that weneva christains are talking abt trinity tthey should always ask us that question.. Can U all see that these pple are where am going, u muslim are jux being mis-guilded, have a turn arround and embrace christ!! Shalom#

On the point of Trinity it's a great mistake on Muhammad's part to say Christian worshipend three God. I read Qur'an and I saw it there. He even went further to say they worship Mary as God. Where he finally killed his message is when he said Jesus didn't die.

Anyway let's continue to pray for them rather than this comparison.

Shalom!

F00028: christianity:
death to followers of other religions -
(Exodus 22:20)

just one person worships another god?–
death TO ENTIRE TOWN (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

don't listen to priests? – death
(Deuteronomy 17:12)

gay? – death (Leviticus 20:13)

do a little astrology? – death (Leviticus
20:27)

fool around? – death (Leviticus 20:10)

priest’s daughter fool around? – death
(Leviticus 21:9)

KILL nonbelievers - : (2 Chronicles
15:12-13)

fake pastors? – death (Zechariah 13:3 )

not a virgin on your wedding night? –
death (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

blasphemy? – death (Leviticus 24:10-16)

disrespectful children – death (2 Kings
2:23-24)

and many, many, many more…

oh yeah, and Jesus says: "Think not that I
am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but
to FULFILL" . (Mathew 5:17)

SMH.....If Muhammad claims that the God who sent Abraham, Moses, Jesus and others Prophets is the one who sent him......don't you know you don't have right to speak against YHWH....about anything in the Bible?

I wonder why it is difficult for you people to say Christian & Muslim are serving the same God yet you people will continue to accused God's action in the Bible when it was confirmed in your book that what happened to past generations is from God.

@Op...you really tried but not by doing this that will make them to believe in Jesus as the savoir of the world rather by continue to put light on reason why Jesus came to this world because their book comfirms everything about Jesus......let them realise that.

Shalom!

ooman: what testimony?

The kind of Op one......

Still waiting for that day.........