frosbel:



provide historical proof that this event happened as described, i.e the sea parted on both sides just like in prince of egypt.

I have none
Neither do I have proof of the evolutionary journey of man.

But jokes aside.
You've watched Exodus the movie?
Somehow I like the narrative of how the sea parted
I am not saying that is what happened, but I like its logical approach of God being present, but yet being logically explained

Weah96:


The incredible part is that the Biblical account is NOT TRUE.

Ok

ooman:


Do you know how many times you mentioned "believe"? I could not even count.

@Bold - Since its all belief, you can argue anything...

But be advised that belief is not reality. You are therefore only wasting your time.

I said belief not FACT
This has no negative influence on me ...it probably has on others
If I want to cross the sea, I'd take a boat and not try walking
if I am in plane that is going to crash
and there is no scientific method available to stop the crash
what worse harm would it do me to believe that it can be averted by the mighty harm of God?

johnydon22:

...
And yes i know you are not an isrealite but their history and myths makes a whole more sense to u than urs.
you study their history more and ignore and neglect urs thats an utter shame.
When will africa wake up and seek its root

I didn't go in search of Jewish history
I am too lazy for that
it came down handed in a book to me
So did those of others

Now, if you write a popular Africa root book and make it available off the shelf
why should I DISDAIN FROM READING IT?

Weah96:


You were clearly referring to the exodus account of the bible. I wouldn't want to see you backtrack now. 600,000 people in one small desert for half a century and they left not one piece of evidence behind? Were they sleeping on the sand?

yes I was
but I couched it in a language of uncertainty because I am yet to read other accounts of the event
but I strongly believe that isrealites who had been a nation [collection of people) for a long time
could have been normadic and had an immigration path through or from Egypt which was once a world center

What is incredible about that?

frosbel:


I still hold the bible as a book with more truth than lies, however it is very difficult to believe all the doctrines and stories I have learnt without an intensive exercise of due diligence carried out on each of them.

Why ? Because when you lie to me once trust goes out of the window and I will from that point on have to examine and re-examine anything/everything you say to avoid falling into another doctrinal quagmire.

Common sense I think

You're perfectly in order
trust once broken is add to amend

I guess the question is who broke your trust?
Is it those that wrote the bible, who were probably not thinking about you when they wrote it?
Is it God? I am yet to hear of him saying the Bible is the complete truth of everything
Is it Jesus who did not bother writing a book?
Is it Paul who was writing his own narrative and sharing with his congregation?

Weah96:



No thinking person today believes that the exodus was an ACTUAL EVENT. Even RABBIS are finally telling the truth, that the thing was a fictional story. Better learn about African exodus from somewhere, and leave the Jewish myth alone.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2004/12/Did-The-Exodus-Really-Happen.aspx#

Neither agreeing nor disproving the narrative because I have not investigated it
In this instance, I purposely chose the word "immigration" over "Exodus"
for a reason such as this

ooman:


See self-delusion. Why do you people just enjoy to lie to yourself all in the name of belief?

By faith, you believe that a virgin was pregnant, and this is proof that a virgin was actually pregnant. SMH

What you've said is true alright
i.e that proof can not rest on mere belief

Although It was not me you were responding to, but considering that I can be reluctantly bunched into the 'superstitious' crew ...reluctant because even me dey tire for my co travellers
while you thankfully belong to the logical camp but on the other side
let me intervene a little to explain what you call our self delusion for the incredulous.


we (and I guess other religions) believe that the start of everything was initiated by a being
Lets call that initiation point, point O

We believe that this being created a logical process that drives from 0 through 10 all the way to infinity or the end.
We believe that that this being is able to and does intervene in points in the system journey after point 0.

Now, if we've believed the beings intervention in point 0, we are not swayed when you guys tell us that he did not or is not able to intervene in other points after point 0. We do have different narratives/views of how the being is able to intervene in the journey through time.

Since we believe he can intervene, we find it credible to believe stories we were told of his intervention even if we did not witness it. We call this miracles, signs and wonders.

Now, your goal on the other side should not be to concentrate on points after point 0 except you want to credibly show us how we are being deceived by men that say that they are able to cause the being to intervene. If you do show us this, it weakens our trust on these men, but we still seek the being.

What you should concentrate your efforts on is to prove to us that point 0 never occurred with the beings input in the first place. If the being did not do it, then he is powerless in the process thereafter.
For now, all we have from you guys is the big bang theory.
This just like the belief in God does not address the question "what was before this?"

We on our side can even better argue that God being spiritually infinite, was always.
The same cannot be said of matter which produced the big bang

So we do have a logic to our madness for now
So strike the root and only then will our edifice crumble

johnydon22:


So guy narrating all the events concerning the jewish myth in a holy book. all the jewish history and myths and legends are all god breathed.. na u know

Dude there are some aspects of the bible that even the most scientific of persons way smarter than you would consider as credible.
For example, the Israelites immigrating from Egypt or being taken captive
Others they would dismiss as myth for example Moses stretching out his staff to the sea and parting it

So why would you call everything a myth?
Does that come across as sound reasoning even to the most unbelieving

plaetton:

Spoken like a politician.
Being a private citizen, why does Frosbel need to be politically correct in his soul searching?

If you walk into a park and see you girlfriend in a tight embrace with a hunk
You could either shout "cheating beaitch" or "what's happening here?"

If as an aggressive person you say the first, the tendency is that you knock out her teeth immediately
and the hunk knocks you out completely

If on the other hand, you say the second, there is a chance that she would say "na my long lost cousin oo"
and you and the hunk would be chilling over some cold beer in some hours from then

Your words affect your thinking and doing process and so does your thinking process affect the words you speak

plaetton:


......You, just like the fraudster Paul, are saying that as long as mogs are doing useful work for your imaginary god, we should all give them a break, look the way ....

.

uhnnn
u read my write up and arrived at this.
Clearly, we're on different wavelengths in both spiritual and secular dimensions

cheers

@ frosbel

And finally by brethren

Its because of this my belief that I am unperturbed by our modern day men of God. both the good and bad
If the bible is written by imperfect men but is God breathed
I believe that despite some of the shenanigans and inconsistencies of our MOG's as long as they are God-breathed on
they do serve at least some useful purpose for God

..continued

@ Frosbel


I like you also question how folks arrived at selecting some books and discarding others to form the bible
I also imagine if the selection process was to have taken place now, how men like Chris, Oyedepo, TD jakes, idahosa, Benny Hinn, The Pope etc
would have influenced the selection according to their own views

I read with amusement when to quiet curios folks, the bible guardians refer the the book of Timothy which says that "All scripture is God-breathed"
It is amusing because the writer was not referring to the bible as we now know it.

But interestingly that is the same scripture on which i stand on when reconciling biblical inconsistencies
albeit in a uniquely different way

This is how I have by God's grace I have made my peace with the inconsistencies

Paraphrased for impact, Genesis says that in the begining God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form and void,
and darkness was upon the surface of the deep,
but despite this inconsistency of creation vs gloom the wind/Spirit of God moved over the waters

Also, Genesis tells us how God puts clay together and breathes into it for man to emerge


So when the writer of Timothy says that all scripture is God breathed and profitable for different uses, what all these verses together minister to me is that:
yes, men may have written the scriptures based on their understanding of events and bias.
Even God speaking directly to some of them does not change the tendency for them to narrate it based on their bias and understanding.
Even those who translate the original would carry on with their own bias

But despite all of this, as long as God breathes on the imperfection, you would find its narratives extremely useful for success in your everyday life.

So even if you find it hard to believe (and reasonably so) that a donkey talked in the bible.
The story when it is God -breathed would teach you that all things both none-living and living will work together to ensure that no curse rests upon you

@Frosbel

With regards to Bible inconsistencies. I agree with you, and believe that all christians who read the bible do see it.
Unbelievers try to point out these inconsistencies to us as gaps that show the bible is fraud.

We christians approach it a different way.
Some of us simply try reconciling using various tools such as original texts for it to fit with our denominational view.
So someone reads where the bible says an evil spirit from God. The person then interprets it as God allowed an evil spirit

Some others just like the israelites who could not bear to hear God speak or see Moses face simply put a veil over it and forbid others from also going near

Some use these inconsistencies to chart new denominational leadership courses where they are the ones that are sole interpreters of the bible

Some take a look at these inconsistencies, attempt to reconcile them and are rebuffed by others who have formed temples around the bible. They soon fall away from christianity.

Some say that the bible is the word of God. And in so doing cannot find faults in it. The inconsistencies are simply waived away saying stuff like "you cannot question God"


I on my own believe that all questions have an answer. I believe that if God be true, he would sort out queris
This believe is not set in stone and can change with time.

frosbel:
wrong.

The Jews reject this as an outright lie, there is nowhere in their scripture that a virgin birth was mentioned, at least they should know, it is their book we borrowed.

read my post again
What I said or implied was that a virgin birth would be more significant to the jews.
I didn't say that they were expecting it.
and the reason it would be significant to them was because of the genesis narrative

Genesis of the Torah says that one man directly from God brought death
it only makes arguable sense to scholars of the Jewish tradition that one man
directly from God will also bring life
this is a point that can be argued to those who believe in the Torah
Just like Paul did

..but wait a minute
the next question becomes, where the Jews even thinking of a Messiah that would reverse the Genesis curse?

the answer is No
The whole concept of Jesus must have hit them with a surprise
the Messiah they were expecting was one in the mould of david, and maybe mini moses
someone that would make them a great earthly kingdom free from colonialists such as the Roman Empire

Hiswordxray:

Stop arguing. I get your point but you don't need to be arguing with your fellow Christian but instead let help our beloved brother who is falling away.

I don't think he is falling
Jesus says that seeds grow only when they die.

He is shedding skin and dead weight
as long as his inner man is anchored on solid rock
the fire of revelations will only burn off confusion and leave someone that is sounder and more approved

The gospel to the gentiles was not largely centered around the Torah
They were not expected to buy copies of the Torah either
Paul rebuked Peter because he sought to introduce some Torah traditions to the gentile flock

The gospel was simply one of power and miraculous deed. This is the kind of thing that appealed to the gentiles and could pull them from their own beliefs.

shdemidemi:


The Virgin birth is the heart of Christianity. If Jesus happen to be like you and I in the sense that he is a direct progeny of the fallen Adam, He wouldn't have been fit to die for the sin of mankind.

Paul puts it this way-Rm 8v3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh

He was not sent as you and I but like you and I i.e without natural copulation between a man and a woman.

It is the heart of Christianity alright
but when the gospel was being preached to the gentiles, that was not what was being preached, because, not all gentiles had the narrative of the fall of man in the first place. The 'evidence' of the virgin birth was more useful to the Jewish tradition

What was being preached to the gentiles was that there was one true God who they should look up to.
And that this Yahweh God sent a man -Jesus who if they believed in him, they would have access to this one true God.
And so, instead of beseeching the other gods for favours, they should turn their attention to Yahweh through Jesus who will not only grant them these favours when asked right, but will also take them to a better place in the afterlife

frosbel:


Bible contradictions.

Since you are still studying and have not arrived at rigorous conclusions yet
you would do good to yourself for now not to use the word "contradiction"

Try using "inconsistencies" instead

Interestingly, one of the popular pastors from Eastern Nigeria.
I can't remember if it is Okonkwo, once said on TV, years ago
that he did not believe in the virgin birth for a long time even as a pastor.

I don't think that a believe or none-believe in many aspects of the Bible are prerequisites to eternal life
What I think is that they can only affects ones faith and direction on this earth either positively or negatively.

frosbel:


Kindly describe how a virgin birth ( without sex or IVF ) can occur from a purely biological standpoint.

thanks.

The likelihood is close to 0
but I think it is possible

Once again, let me walk through an uninformed theorethical narrative:

Women give birth because a sperm sticks to an egg. the fusion of both of this forms life.
The fusion starts dividing and dividing (called growth) which soon sticks to the womb.

Now imagine a fatal radioactive exposure allows the egg to mutate , change structure into the XY male genetics and start dividing.

After all, it is possible for one to clone creatures from a single cell.

Maybe that is why it is said that when Mary asked, "how can this be?" Gabriel the angel told Mary, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you"

So this could be where her egg was tampered with and mutated to form a male child

lastmessenger:
....... I am personally convinced that you don't need a bible to know God and Jesus Christ because during nascist regim in Romania men knew God even without reading bible .

Excellent observation

wirinet:


There is nothing like virgin birth. A virgin can never give birth. For a virgin to give birth would mean the resulting baby would have only 23 chromosones (a female egg has only 23 chromosomes. The funniest aspect is that the baby (jesus in this case) is a man. That means jesus has the XY chromosome, now where did Jesus get the Y chromosome, which is found only in male?

The virgin birth myth had been in existence from the dawn of history to signify great men, especially very power kings. Such men are attributed devine origin as to connote they are half god and half men. They are said to be a union between a diety or god and an earthly woman.

From my uninformed thinking....
A virgin can give birth whether you chose to view it scientifically or spiritually
After all, this whole complex universal system is scientifically said to have come about by the statistical improbability of a big bang.
It is possible but highly unlikely for X or Y chromosomes to mutate, one to the other, or to a new structure entirely
after all, don't some exist who can neither be properly defined as solely male or female.

The question is not if virgin births can occur. It is if it actually happened

Calculia

the title of your thread as little to do with its content
stop being rogue

neither do you provide a link to the context in which Soyinka spoke

yabatech is not burning
wrong use of english

its like saying lagos is burning because a building in yabatech which is located in lagos is burning
you then go further to say, Nigeria is burning, or Africa is burning

the correct expression is that a building in Yabatech is on fire

You guys force the news of your church men on us
to make their ministry grow
at first we are reluctant to pay them any attention
but when we start getting interested and scrutinizing them to pick the logs from their eyes
una pastor just like Chris go tok say we dey tok him matter because na great man when we dey jealous

una go come they attack us for criticizing una MOG
after they've strongly and purposely courted publicity

...una well done ooo

papa needs fresh milk

1stCitizen:
WikiLeaks
The Global Intelligence Files,
5543061
emails released so far


[Africa] Nigeria -- Jonathan can't control Patience, accusations of corruption
Released on 2013-06-16 00:00 GMT

Email-ID 2359276
Date 2011-09-07 16:23:51
From mark.schroeder@stratfor.com
To africa@stratfor.com
First Lady Patience Jonathan "runs her own show and the husband has
little or no control over her," a U.S, cable leaked by Wikileaks has
said, stressing that she has a more forceful personality than the husband.

Related, I've heard that both of them and their elite supporters are
always on the look out for business deals to get involved in.

https://search.wikileaks.org/gifiles/?viewemailid=2359276

You guys really, really need to be careful with the way you think though information

It's definitely not a top Western diplomat that made this comment.
Unlike us, they do not think in terms of men CONTROLING women

Also, wikileaks does not always equate to America or credibility
It's like Forbes carrying an article where I am quoted as saying "Jonathan is the richest man in Africa"
And then you carry your big head come here come say that "Forbe says Jonathan is the richest man in Africa"

koife:
I have noticed with a bit of pains that prayer works
on people and not me!

I have had the opportunity to pray and intercede for
people and it comes out positive, but one surprising
fact
is that I hardly get answers when I pray for
myself...

It all started during my degree years; I will teach and even help people during examination but often time their result comes out better than mine.

Fast forward to 2days ago. I prayed for someone who was
koboless, to have a surprise gift to the tune of
hundred
of thousands for a project she scrambled for. Less
than 56 hours later, she got it.

I personally dropped someone's CV to be considered for
bank job and less than 20hours letter the person
received a call for interview.

And today I prayed and
my kid sis was given a visa....where as I have tried
severally without succeeding.

This, amongst other
bizzare
experiences have become a cause for concern.

Matured advice only please!

If you pray for others and it works for them, but not yourself, then you probably have the gift of the prophet
So simply do what other prophets do
...ask those you you pray for to bring gifts to you

make I add scripture join

remember when Moses cried out for help
God asked him what was in his hands?

Charting new courses for success

Probably,
the curse unto the 4th generation of unbelievers na im dey make some new followers become extreme sheep
while the blessings unto the 4th generation of believers na im dey make scale fall for our eyes

So while those whose family tree have only just recently encountered Christ and Chritianity
and are easilly excited by anything proceeding from their MOG's
We smile, knowing full well that we could equally and easily be these MOG's if we feel motivated to be that
We know for sure that if we chose to take on this MOG toga, all the blessings accrued from our Christian generations before us
can easilly be appropriated to us and our children thereafter as they new believers bring in their harvests


But since we've not chosen such a path, we are content to follow a different religiuos path that forces the blessings down now
For example, investing our money for the future of our kids so that they do not have empty pockets when they lay their hands on our grand children to bless them

..shalom

Outsourcing blessings

As our parents retired from career and business due to their age
and as they sent us into the world with little or no money (because they had none to give)
they began to bless us with strange blessings

"My pikin, may God wipe away our tears of suffering and make your life better than ours"
"Amen" we said and set out into the world

We soon began to marry and give birth to kids ourselves
After a hard day's job we look at these kids just like our parents looked at us and then also outsource the blessings to them
"My pikin, may your life be better than ours. May God grant you wealth so that you do not go through horrible bosses like I have gone through"

The scale falls out of our eyes at different times in this life's journey
It is said that madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result
We the children of the religious have seen it all... we've paid our dues
What we've now got is a spirit of discernment
We might not know what works, but we know what doesn't work

Spot the difference?

Some of our 'giving' parents progressed financially with time
Antagonists would debunk this claim and argue that someone at end of his career should be better than what he was at the start of his career
We the children of the very religious (or as some would say -spiritual) noticed that although our parents progressed or retrogressed,
Papa Rashid, who never attended church and was a know womaniser was more financially bouyant

At first, when we asked pastor in Sunday school, he would argue that we were yet to see the end of papa rashids life compared to that of our parents
Soon pastor became bolder and declared that even if God has assured you of blessings, if you do not make financial sacrifices to that blessing, wrath could turn against you
You never can tell how much sacrifice papa Rashid had been making to his secret Chi


We bought into all of this, and just like our parents we gave and gave
Some of us manageably progressed alright, but so did Papa Rashids kids who were just like their dad
We closed our eyes to this.