₦airaland Forum

TV01:
I grasp the concept of a "gospel of sinlessness", but how does agreeing with it prove if someone is anointed, a worker of divine miracles etc as posed by my questions?

good to know we have a meeting point
so let me explain

1. How are you certain he's anointed? And more specifically anointed by God?

I only believe he is. just like I believe that TB Joshua is, and believe that I am.
Those are just my beliefs/perception based on what I have processed and think i understand

2. Even if we don't question his dedication, which "gospel" is he dedicated to? Especially when you yourself question his gospel of sinlessness

By his fruits, he sure spreads the gospel of sinlessness. i do not question this nor the type of gospel itself. what I question is follow follow throughout most of ones lifetime without grounding, like a guy that came here parroting what he was taught. I also kinda question the subtle encouragement of people to do what they wont otherwise do to bring in money. This is an ethical thing to me.

3. How are you sure? Miracles - or seeming miracles - can be worked outside God

yep, i would think that miracls can be worked outside God, but pls refer to my conclusion

5. Even if you assume he started with genuine fervour, and in Gods will. Do you believe he is still in/doing it at this point?

also refer to my conclusion

CONCLUSION
interestingly the gospel of sinlessness if true (I believe it is)
means that you can indeed tap into God independent of your character whether good or considered evil. it essentially says that its not your character that matters to tap into what is already available to you
it also means someone who tries to live by the typical xtian values is able to achieve same result as someone who discards the typical xtian values

based on this gospel of sinlessnes
so after the 'born again' point, how do you tap into Gods goodies whether you're good or evil
Chris suggests that it is mainly through money
some say its through prayers and fasting
some say it is through keeping quiet when pastor messes up
some say it is by follow follow
some say it is by pursuing what God has laid in your heart to do
the list goes on and on

TV01:
1. How are you certain he's anointed? And more specifically anointed by God?
2. Even if we don't question his dedication, which "gospel" is he dedicated to? Especially when you yourself question his gospel of sinlessness
3. How are you sure? Miracles - or seeming miracles - can be worked outside God
4. I appreciate that to understand is not to endorse, but how do yo umake your claims 1-3 above - with any certainty - if you don't.
Wild card;
5. Even if you assume he started with genuine fervour, and in Gods will. Do you believe he is still in/doing it at this point?b
TV

The target audience for this write up was folks who share some similar beliefs to mine -the once saved always saved crew
and those that many times agree with the man but find it difficult to understand why some of his (or his ministries) actions or utterances seem at variance with what they consider cherished christian values

And finally it was my little way of empathizing with the woman in the center of the whole brouhaha

..it might be difficult for someone outside this circle to understand it except they understand (even if they not accept) the gospel of sinlessness.

liliangmail:
save a soul oooo! i need to learn **Advanced Filtering** And ** Conditional formatting**

Do you have a particular use for it so i can tailor my teaching towards your project or you just need generic knowledge?

Conclusion

Little wonder that the gatemen in boarding houses always tend to check Garri for smuggled goods
If a dad wants to hand his daughter a grenade without being caught, all he needs to do is to come on visiting day and hand it to her
..simplez

And i'll tell you something else
If you go into all boarding houses right now and search the children of all Force personals
thoroughly especially those that leave in the barracks
you might see the missing gadgets that our soldiers are complaining that they are yet to receive

bottom line is this: I'm sure this entire event has nothing to do with Boko haram or Christian GEJ sponsoring terrorists

What students do what I'm sure you're aware of

In my secondary school and early university days we had a habit of bringing artefacts from home
It was a way of bonding and a kind of right of belonging to bring awesome status symbols from home.

The rich had no issue with this.
They would bring dollars and plenty of naira notes that they pilfered (we called in bombed) from their dads
Some in boarding houses would bring cars and park it in the house of their guardian teachers who they regularly tipped

Well, those that were not from well to do homes, but always wanted to belong
had to think of creative things to bring to school.
-If your mum was a jeweller, you would pack her gold chains and hope she does not find out
-If your dad na native doctor, you might be the go-to guy
for taking away the jazz from that chicken that unfortunately strolled into the premises

-iF your dad was in the police force or armed forces and had not been collecting enough egunje
you would be left with bringing in gears such as bullet proof vests, boots, camouflage items and service pistols
Some sold off these items. Some returned them home at the end of school term

How did they get many of these items into the school premises?

...you guessed right.
It was smuggled in that flavoured gold dust called gari

Before the koko of my story

With regards to information, I sometimes regard humans as being grouped into 3 categories
1) Knowledgeable
2) Catastrophic or stupid
3) Ignorant or gullible
Categories change based on the type of information that is being processed.

-The knowledgeable have a good idea of an issue but do not tend to be vocal
-The stupid are extremely vocal, they think they know,
but are primed full with emotions when reviewing issues
-The Ignorant do not know. They wait for information to be fed to them, then run with it.

So its like this ...
the knowledgeable walks past a crowd curiously gathered around a goat which they've never seen before.
He casually says "that na goat na" , before walking away.

The stupid, looks at the animal and says "na dragon be dis ooo. see im horn" .
When someone tells him that many harmless animals have horns
he says "but see the way this one they say 'mehn, mehn.'... na winch wen turn to animal be that na".

The ignorant just consumes the most emotionally appealing information from the catastrophic fella
and picks up tires to burn the goat.

..I dey come

FortresOfChrist:
I have been studying the doctrine of Justification for some time and I must say it's a deep doctrine that beats the human mind of what the Lord our fortress did for us. How can a just God declare a sinner righteous even with their sins because they are in Christ Lord our fortress and some still say they have sin in their lives? Another issue is how can a sinner be declared guiltless without works? This doctrine of justification and righteousness by faith is really the Lord our fortress doing. So my question is is one who is justified and declared righteous still a sinner? Does the bible teaches that one can be righteous, justified and at the same time be sinner after being declared justified? I need my brethren in this discussion please.

Una don turn me to pastor kwo?

Ok, I could say many stuff, but I'll approach it this way
Why are we plus you usually bothered about sin?
There are 2 or 3 main reasons?
1) Punishment in the afterlife
2) Punishment in this life
3) Lack of blessings in this life

Now we were told wether na allegory or algorithm or na film trick
that Adam ate a simple fruit which was placed temptingly close to him
and then (2) and (3) became the birth right of his descendants plus death. Many add (1) to the mix with a lot of arguments like what happens to dead children etc.
This is despite you being a good guy which some argue might only bring a small measure of relief in this life.

If this is true, then it is also possible for one person that is your dad like Adam can also reverse this I should think
irrespective of your good or bad actions

Let's imagine that the person cannot solely guarantee you Point (1) except you join am work out your salvation with trembling
The person should at least be able to provide (2) and (3) without your efforts
But we are told to do stuff like sow for the blessings
and then some have even gone as far as saying tithing takes away the punishment of unprotected sex
aside from that we are pretty sure that if we cross our hands, we wont see fruits dangling from around us to pluck from

So what is the new Adam solely responsible for that does not need your input?
You know how crazy it sounds that God allowed the entire humanity to slip into catastrophe by living a fruit worse than atomic bomb in his garden.
If God did this, like it is said, then the antithesis of this should also be as crazy too


Now, let's rewrite the Genesis again
God tells Adam the day you eat of this fruit, you shall live
Adam eats the fruit and realises that he is now clothed in Glory
God looks for him, and he jumps out happily saying "surprise, surprise"
God smiles and say "ah ..in happiness shall you work the ground, and you shall reap bountifully"
this same blessing is passed on to all the seeds of the new Adam no matter what.

Yeah, ... I am talking yaga yaga
But whatever sin means, at the minimum the fellowship of Jesus should afford one the courage to stand boldly before God first and foremost
and call him daddy.
It doesn't me you should go about wronging people, if you do, they should catch you and beat the day life out of you.

But if me as a little innocent kid could be a child of death and its attribute because of papa Adam no matter what
I'd be happy to argue the case of life for me and its attribute because of Jesus no matter what

After all, there is a judgement before our final abode. Na there we go tok the matter.

vooks:
Here is what I have observed
1. Unnecessary splitting of messages into several DVDS to make a 'series'. A 2 hour sermon that can comfortably sit on a dvd is split into 40 minutes bits,a set of 3 DVDS sold of course at the price of 3.

I think a pastor once said something about god giving you the ability to sell even sand
The splitting of the message is simply to make more money
its a normal business model like Star wars and Harry Porter franchise

2. Most of the DVDS are bought by people who watched the pastor live. These are the same members who support ministry and as such there is no need to profit from them

you've got a point about the sermons being bought by folks who already support the ministry so why profit from them
But capitalists dont think that way.
Unlike the Lagos State gove that gave free bus rides during the festive season
a capitalist would rather hike the price during that period

3. Charging for DVDS is one step away from charging for Live sermons

I hear it is already being done on new years day in some churches
I am not a tither although I do tithe sometimes, but the model I use in giving to my church most times is paying for my seat and another persons seat at cinema rate
We might soon come to this. I also hear some jewish synagogues do this

4. Selling merchandise is always restrictive;fewer benefit. Don't tell me that 'mature' believers know the value of the message exceeds the cost

We all need to understand that the gospel of wealth would require people to pay for it. Its no shakabum spell from God
its simply the ability of one to take money from another, and in some instances, selling sand as something pricey

From my own chritian perspective, i hold no grudge against pastoral capitalists
as long as they can act like a typical woman ..who marries for love, children, security and money at the same time
but at least strongly believe that it is all and only for love

Personally, I favor the open source approach like Linux. I can download at. My expense a Hirens Boot CD and burn it but ordering a CD costs me. In short, free resources but believers pay the small cost of distribution.

when david was hungry he ate priests bread
if a congregant is hungry for the word but thinks the pastor is a greedy bloke
then probably pirate the work but no sell am o
if dem catch u, you are on ya own

ihedinobi2:
Interesting approach, esere826. There are some questions though? What quality does God as you have defined him here would be responsible for the fact of creation? That is, why does this being that is everything and nothing, that contains good and evil, male and female and so on bother to create?

Secondly, how exactly would you say that the Word was with God?

Based on this theory
this being could have made a choice to create a system and made a choice to make that system have an order and made the choice to respect that order

Probably, the point in timelessness were this decision was taken was what what the writer of John considered as the beginning
and that decision was the word itself
so in the beginning, the Word was with God

still within my rough likely wrong sketch
if we try to juxtapose that concept against the theological christian beliefs about christ it could be any or both of these:
the word was the authority name that was bestowed upon the human christ
that he became the human merged with all the esence of the Word and became God

or that the Word was the spirit that was breathed in baby Jesus
so Jesus carried all the Word and its/he's powers plus the blueprints of the universal rules which had been established in the beginning of tangibility

uhmmm... this sound like those funny messages now

plaetton:
Ever heard of " Simony" ?

Pls Google it and tell us what it means , what it means to you in light of the immoral nonsense you and your type are peddling.

I did read it
I can see your point but i think its blurred
simon himself requested to buy power not a tape, but was rebuked

for the institution of simony in an ecclesiastel body
If the leadership of a body says something is wrong,
then it can be said to be wrong within that institution only (lets not worry about the external environment here)

If the body choses to sell its product
the externals to this transaction 'MIGHT' only be worried if what is offered is not what is got
and they want to protect the buyer

Sjones:
What exactly do u intend to achieve with this nonesense write up ?

Pastor Anita never accused her husband of adultery.Cablnews.ng that first came up with d news smuggled in that word"adultery" to deceive d whole world especially those of u that love lies and enjoy feasting on things like this.

If u can write so well,use it to preach d gospel and u wil have a reward .

and who says i don't preach the gospel
ooops, i forget --ur only parroting what you were taught to say in response to critique

and what kind of reward should i seek?
probably not the type you seek for I have been rewarded with that already
The reward i seek is simply to make things plain to seekers,...this makes me happy

And what is wrong with throwing a harmless jab at a ministry once in a while
I see Apostles in the bible do it
I even see pastors in your ministry do it more often than others maybe not calling their names
i am sure you are aware of this

what is wrong if i talk about a controversial 'great' man situated within my economy.
I talk about GEJ, Buhari and Ibori..is this not a price to be paid for greatness?
after all, i am not talking about you, but you are talking about me, and i'm talking about your boss
see the heirarchy of things?

plaetton:
I am soooooo disappointed that you could utter such crap." Does knowledge come cheap"?

I actually thought you were the more moderate of these Christian retar.D's. I guess I was wrong again to assume that were intelligent and rational Christians.

If Jesus was actually alive to hear you utter such utterly st.up.Id and ridiculous statements, he wound cry so loud as to knock the earth out it's orbit .

I think we can now understand why the early Christians were persecuted in Rome for corrupting the moral underpinnings of society.

The sheer stupidity, greed and immorality that emanates from this toxic variant of a fraudulent religion is just overwhelming.
This is a shocking endorsement of fraud and all that is immoral about Pentecostal Christianity.

No need to be shocked my friend
it is what it is

If you want to become a christian and preach the gospel for free with your own resources
we would be happy about it

I do a lot of learning by browsing free stuff on the internet
I am thankful for 'those' like wikipedia and opensource who put up stuff for free
however, i do not get upset if Microsoft decides to ensure that users pay for their product
i simply switch to the next free product

Its called brainwashing

pink was initially a male color, and blue a female colour
somewhere along the line, businesses changed the color preferences

with female becoming pink

vooks:
I have always wondered why pastas resist embracing technology such as Youtube and they disseminate sermons freely.
DVDs too. I buy the blanks at around ten to the USD. Throw in the burning and the label usually done by volunteers and church equipments. A DVD costs far less than USD 0.5. Why then do we have DVDs, messages especially series going for up to USD 50?

Are they not guilty of presenting the gospel 'with charge'?

1 Corinthians 9:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

They present the gospel with charge alright. it does not make them guilty of anything
That they apostle who wrote the verse decided tor forgo his potential reward does not mean others should do too
those apostles were super humans, ours in this generation have lots of carnal needs

knowledge does not come cheap
and in fact, if you make it cheap, it would be scorned

Like it is in the camp of the Jonathanians

Yep, some of the core conservative Northern leadership promised bloodshed
they couldn't penetrate down south
and instead set in motion a cause that initially spilled the blood of christians and Southerners up North
but soon turned against almost everyone of their own in the North

Jonathn's men felt that "dem dey fight themselves"
and instead concentrated on playing grammatical games with our treasury


.....now likewise there is a great indignation against Jonathan after these guys sacrificed themselves to expose the soft underbelly of Jonathan

Just like in the bible

Ever read this story in the bible? It starts and ends in 2Kings 3.
3 kings for Israel, Judah and Edom went to wage war against the King of Moab
the 3 kings paid a visit to prophet Elisha who assured them they would win the battle

As these 3 kings massacred the army of the king of Moab
the king of Moab decided to concentrate on getting only one of the 3 kings
he understood that when you are weak, concentrate on attacking just a few things with all your might
he went in with some 700 expert men to try attacking the king of Edom, but couldn't break through

In desperation, he took his first born son
killed and burned him in the prescence of all the armies as a sacrifice unto god or gods

immediately this happened, there was anger everywhere
but it wasn't against the King of Moab
it was against the invading army. And so the invading army turned back home.

Frosbel and shdemidemi

nice topic about the concept of "save"
in your arguments can you guys also consider and discuss
what the various groups in those days (not now a-days ooooo, when we think "save" means to escape hell and land in heaven)
perceived that "save" meant

for example would an Apostle go to Turkey, and finding them not having any knowledge about a place called hell
introduce it to them, then tell them that he's got someone that would save them from it?
much like a pharmaceutical company introducing a disease, then introducing a cure

Frosbel et al

Thought to chip it in that although public wikis are a great source of information
they are not highly regarded in the academic community
one of the reasons is because it can be easily edited my multiple users who might desire to propagate mischief

for example, if you look at the top right corner of the wiki page that you provided
you'd see the edit tab there

Wikis are however great in providing introductory and readily available ideas/info which could them be thoroughly researched using more rigorous means

....battle on guys. make i grab my new year pop corn

i dont believe this story
except the girl and her family her extremely naive ati gullible

the man is not melchizedek with no history naw
which kain wedding una do for the same town wen the mans wife's family no get wind off

haba
anyways maybe Lagos is like the West were everyone minds his business

and if this whole thing is true,
then the matter should be picked up by her familly and the man's family
no be she suppose dey do voltron

honourhim:
When you people refer to eternal punishment as instigating fear I just wonder whether annhilliation is palatable and doesn't instigate fear too. C'mmon bro...both of them project fear and terror. If you truly want to preach a gospel that will be free of fear then lake of fire punishment, either eternal or temporary, should not come in at all.
Secondly you can't conclude that eternal torment is a lie. Both sides have strong cases for their positions. And if at the end of the day it turns out that total annhilliation is a lie what will you do then? Kill God?(Lol).
The whole thing is like reading this statement- GODISNOWHERE.
An unbeliever will read it thus- GOD IS NO WHERE while a believer will read it thus- GOD IS NOW HERE. Each person believes his own is the truth while the other is a lie but it doesn't change anything. Everybody will face the truth at the end of the day. All these argument doesn't change the reality.
For me I'm more convinced about eternal punishment but wish that it will be total annhilliation for them.

great to find another person that shares my type of thoughts on such issues though my conclusion is different
but just siddon by my side and watch these guys do battle ..quite interesting
na them know Jesus pass.
you would find those that are smart seekers, and those that are simply doctrinal parrots
but them no they ever change their view ooo
if they come into battle saying the world is flat, the leave saying the world is flat from any angle when viewed by the naked eye

vooks:
Get off the fence and I will make time and engage you

fence?

incorrigible aren't you ?

vooks:
Except the lake of fire is SPECIFICALLY prepared for Satan and his angels. if they will be consumed, what's the point of the fire persisting beyond their annihilation into eternity?
Matthew 25:41King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Uhmm,.. I think I understand you better now

Well like I told the other chap
My view on hell is neither for nor against. Though to the untrained mind it looks like I'm against
My motive is different
It leans more to simply showing that the passages that are used in support of hell have gaps
and the logic when the verses are put together is inconsistent
And yes, I lean more (not totally) towards hell not being what we,ve been taught by the church so far

Perhaps it exists, perhaps it doesn't. But mehn..... So far, there have been holes everywhere
For example, in a previous post I tried to show that the lake of fire might be everlasting for only some specific beings
It doesn't mean that is my position
But it does mean that I can easily draw this out from the arguments so far proffered
And you know what?
I can puncture this verse you've put up there within the hell concept

vooks:
What will the fire be burning in eternity if all that's thrown there will be burned up in seconds?
Are you accusing your Creator of arson?
Wait, even arsonists have a purpose for lighting up fires. You just accused God of a meaningless exercise. But then again, may be the eternal fire looks cute

i would have preferred to ignore you because your post shows the attributes of a scoffer
However, I couldn't resist critiquing (not criticising) your logic here

I hear there are fiery stars in other universes and galaxies
Obviously created by god as you and I believe

But wait a minute, is their purpose to warm other creations in other planets?

Now let me also scoff
You don't need to answer me
Go ask your pastor then get back to me

..db

ayoku777:
First the argument was that "everlasting fire" doesn't mean anyone will burn there forever.
Then it became 'only Satan and the beast will be tormented forever' not humans.
Now, it is Satan, the beast and "the beast fellowship".
How many different categories of people, with separate hell fire fate and experience do we have now?
Do you just make up stuff as you go? Don't do that, don't make up doctrine as you go. It will not lead you to the truth.
There is nowhere in scripture that the cessation of existence in the lake of fire is implied or portrayed.

now calm down
i spend my time exchanging with you because you have some semblance of logical reasoning

I am Esere826 and not Frosbel or Lastmessanger
as i stated earlier we dont all share same and exact point of view though we might be closer in our views
its like RCCG and Winners being similar but yet distinct
I have stated my views on Hell severally here

In a manner of speaking,
its good exercise if your brain can differentiate between a crying woman and that of her crying baby
you just cant say to the woman: "you disturb me by crying from morning to night"
true you are being disturbed all day, false that she does all the crying

yes, you're seeing/tackling multiple anti-hell arguments
No, they're not flowing from a single doctrine/approach/person

now if you are not capable of distinguishing this simple matter
how do i trust that you are able to discern something as spiritually complex as Revelation

@ ayoku777


yes, u got the post i was referring to
and no, i am not implying/ concluding anything. just suggesting that there could be a different interpretation as valid or more valid as the traditional one,and seeking to explore it.
back to the topic...

this is another great scripture that point to the traditional doctrine of hell
however, it seems to mention a distinct category of people -the beast fellowship as suffering same fate as the beast

it even goes further:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation,

^^ this verse seems to suggest that that there is a cup of indignation which can be mixed, ..perhaps diluted
however the beast fellowship shall drink the concentrated wine of wrath
Consequently, there is room for some argument wriggle here

...happy new year

shdemidemi:
Nothing suggest that hell will be evacuated so I won't infer, will you?

maybe not the right words
but since we can do away with these little nuances in words
there seems to be a suggestion in revelation that hell will be evacuated form its present location an cast into the lake of fire
there is also a suggestion in revelation that "hell" would give up its dead prior to this happening

@ayoku777

I've trashed your bit earlier
check the 2nd or 3rd page i think

if you cant find it, inform me so i repost it

vooks:
What will the fire be burning in eternity if all that's thrown there will be burned up in seconds?
Are you accusing your Creator of arson?
Wait, even arsonists have a purpose for lighting up fires. You just accused God of a meaningless exercise. But then again, may be the eternal fire looks cute

I think i just accused him of being Hitler.

You happy now?

shdemidemi:
As one who knows exactly what awaits the wicked, Jesus told the story of a rich man who was tormented in hell:

And the rich man cried out and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.”

But Abraham said, “Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.” (Luke 16:24-26)

From this graphic interpretation of hell, does it seem like it is a one time destruction or a continuous torture of the wicked?

yes, this looks close to the widely held view of hell all right. I'm almost inclined to agree with you
but let me push a little further

I thought that there is a teaching that suggests that abraham's side of the divide was evacuated with the resurection of the lord
is there no possibility that the fiery part would also be evacuated and and its inhabitants permanently deleted?

shdemidemi:
Bro .. why do we give names to things in the first place?

behemah is called beast in the english language, I see no problem with the name. do we really have to overstretch the issue of names, is it pertinent to the discourse in any way?

I agree
no need to overstretch it
but for the sake of knowledge, it is generally useful for you and others to understand these word/name nuances
pls correct me if i am wrong

For example if you say someone was called Adam because he was taken from the earth, then you are technically correct
but if you say someone is called Man because he was taken from the earth,... then you are not correct
although the hebrew word Adam roughly translates to man in english, but their etymology is different

shdemidemi:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels

that a fire is everlasting doesn't' necessarily mean that folks burn in it continuously
after all and so to speak, if you put paper into an everlasting fire, the paper will burn off, while the fire continues unabated