Its called brainwashing

pink was initially a male color, and blue a female colour
somewhere along the line, businesses changed the color preferences

with female becoming pink

vooks:
I have always wondered why pastas resist embracing technology such as Youtube and they disseminate sermons freely.
DVDs too. I buy the blanks at around ten to the USD. Throw in the burning and the label usually done by volunteers and church equipments. A DVD costs far less than USD 0.5. Why then do we have DVDs, messages especially series going for up to USD 50?

Are they not guilty of presenting the gospel 'with charge'?

1 Corinthians 9:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

They present the gospel with charge alright. it does not make them guilty of anything
That they apostle who wrote the verse decided tor forgo his potential reward does not mean others should do too
those apostles were super humans, ours in this generation have lots of carnal needs

knowledge does not come cheap
and in fact, if you make it cheap, it would be scorned

Like it is in the camp of the Jonathanians

Yep, some of the core conservative Northern leadership promised bloodshed
they couldn't penetrate down south
and instead set in motion a cause that initially spilled the blood of christians and Southerners up North
but soon turned against almost everyone of their own in the North

Jonathn's men felt that "dem dey fight themselves"
and instead concentrated on playing grammatical games with our treasury


.....now likewise there is a great indignation against Jonathan after these guys sacrificed themselves to expose the soft underbelly of Jonathan

Just like in the bible

Ever read this story in the bible? It starts and ends in 2Kings 3.
3 kings for Israel, Judah and Edom went to wage war against the King of Moab
the 3 kings paid a visit to prophet Elisha who assured them they would win the battle

As these 3 kings massacred the army of the king of Moab
the king of Moab decided to concentrate on getting only one of the 3 kings
he understood that when you are weak, concentrate on attacking just a few things with all your might
he went in with some 700 expert men to try attacking the king of Edom, but couldn't break through

In desperation, he took his first born son
killed and burned him in the prescence of all the armies as a sacrifice unto god or gods

immediately this happened, there was anger everywhere
but it wasn't against the King of Moab
it was against the invading army. And so the invading army turned back home.

Frosbel and shdemidemi

nice topic about the concept of "save"
in your arguments can you guys also consider and discuss
what the various groups in those days (not now a-days ooooo, when we think "save" means to escape hell and land in heaven)
perceived that "save" meant

for example would an Apostle go to Turkey, and finding them not having any knowledge about a place called hell
introduce it to them, then tell them that he's got someone that would save them from it?
much like a pharmaceutical company introducing a disease, then introducing a cure

Frosbel et al

Thought to chip it in that although public wikis are a great source of information
they are not highly regarded in the academic community
one of the reasons is because it can be easily edited my multiple users who might desire to propagate mischief

for example, if you look at the top right corner of the wiki page that you provided
you'd see the edit tab there

Wikis are however great in providing introductory and readily available ideas/info which could them be thoroughly researched using more rigorous means

....battle on guys. make i grab my new year pop corn

i dont believe this story
except the girl and her family her extremely naive ati gullible

the man is not melchizedek with no history naw
which kain wedding una do for the same town wen the mans wife's family no get wind off

haba
anyways maybe Lagos is like the West were everyone minds his business

and if this whole thing is true,
then the matter should be picked up by her familly and the man's family
no be she suppose dey do voltron

honourhim:
When you people refer to eternal punishment as instigating fear I just wonder whether annhilliation is palatable and doesn't instigate fear too. C'mmon bro...both of them project fear and terror. If you truly want to preach a gospel that will be free of fear then lake of fire punishment, either eternal or temporary, should not come in at all.
Secondly you can't conclude that eternal torment is a lie. Both sides have strong cases for their positions. And if at the end of the day it turns out that total annhilliation is a lie what will you do then? Kill God?(Lol).
The whole thing is like reading this statement- GODISNOWHERE.
An unbeliever will read it thus- GOD IS NO WHERE while a believer will read it thus- GOD IS NOW HERE. Each person believes his own is the truth while the other is a lie but it doesn't change anything. Everybody will face the truth at the end of the day. All these argument doesn't change the reality.
For me I'm more convinced about eternal punishment but wish that it will be total annhilliation for them.

great to find another person that shares my type of thoughts on such issues though my conclusion is different
but just siddon by my side and watch these guys do battle ..quite interesting
na them know Jesus pass.
you would find those that are smart seekers, and those that are simply doctrinal parrots
but them no they ever change their view ooo
if they come into battle saying the world is flat, the leave saying the world is flat from any angle when viewed by the naked eye

vooks:
Get off the fence and I will make time and engage you

fence?

incorrigible aren't you ?

vooks:
Except the lake of fire is SPECIFICALLY prepared for Satan and his angels. if they will be consumed, what's the point of the fire persisting beyond their annihilation into eternity?
Matthew 25:41King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Uhmm,.. I think I understand you better now

Well like I told the other chap
My view on hell is neither for nor against. Though to the untrained mind it looks like I'm against
My motive is different
It leans more to simply showing that the passages that are used in support of hell have gaps
and the logic when the verses are put together is inconsistent
And yes, I lean more (not totally) towards hell not being what we,ve been taught by the church so far

Perhaps it exists, perhaps it doesn't. But mehn..... So far, there have been holes everywhere
For example, in a previous post I tried to show that the lake of fire might be everlasting for only some specific beings
It doesn't mean that is my position
But it does mean that I can easily draw this out from the arguments so far proffered
And you know what?
I can puncture this verse you've put up there within the hell concept

vooks:
What will the fire be burning in eternity if all that's thrown there will be burned up in seconds?
Are you accusing your Creator of arson?
Wait, even arsonists have a purpose for lighting up fires. You just accused God of a meaningless exercise. But then again, may be the eternal fire looks cute

i would have preferred to ignore you because your post shows the attributes of a scoffer
However, I couldn't resist critiquing (not criticising) your logic here

I hear there are fiery stars in other universes and galaxies
Obviously created by god as you and I believe

But wait a minute, is their purpose to warm other creations in other planets?

Now let me also scoff
You don't need to answer me
Go ask your pastor then get back to me

..db

ayoku777:

First the argument was that "everlasting fire" doesn't mean anyone will burn there forever.
Then it became 'only Satan and the beast will be tormented forever' not humans.
Now, it is Satan, the beast and "the beast fellowship".
How many different categories of people, with separate hell fire fate and experience do we have now?
Do you just make up stuff as you go? Don't do that, don't make up doctrine as you go. It will not lead you to the truth.
There is nowhere in scripture that the cessation of existence in the lake of fire is implied or portrayed.

now calm down
i spend my time exchanging with you because you have some semblance of logical reasoning

I am Esere826 and not Frosbel or Lastmessanger
as i stated earlier we dont all share same and exact point of view though we might be closer in our views
its like RCCG and Winners being similar but yet distinct
I have stated my views on Hell severally here

In a manner of speaking,
its good exercise if your brain can differentiate between a crying woman and that of her crying baby
you just cant say to the woman: "you disturb me by crying from morning to night"
true you are being disturbed all day, false that she does all the crying

yes, you're seeing/tackling multiple anti-hell arguments
No, they're not flowing from a single doctrine/approach/person

now if you are not capable of distinguishing this simple matter
how do i trust that you are able to discern something as spiritually complex as Revelation

@ ayoku777


yes, u got the post i was referring to
and no, i am not implying/ concluding anything. just suggesting that there could be a different interpretation as valid or more valid as the traditional one,and seeking to explore it.
back to the topic...

this is another great scripture that point to the traditional doctrine of hell
however, it seems to mention a distinct category of people -the beast fellowship as suffering same fate as the beast

it even goes further:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation,

^^ this verse seems to suggest that that there is a cup of indignation which can be mixed, ..perhaps diluted
however the beast fellowship shall drink the concentrated wine of wrath
Consequently, there is room for some argument wriggle here

...happy new year

shdemidemi:

Nothing suggest that hell will be evacuated so I won't infer, will you?

maybe not the right words
but since we can do away with these little nuances in words
there seems to be a suggestion in revelation that hell will be evacuated form its present location an cast into the lake of fire
there is also a suggestion in revelation that "hell" would give up its dead prior to this happening

@ayoku777

I've trashed your bit earlier
check the 2nd or 3rd page i think

if you cant find it, inform me so i repost it

vooks:
What will the fire be burning in eternity if all that's thrown there will be burned up in seconds?
Are you accusing your Creator of arson?
Wait, even arsonists have a purpose for lighting up fires. You just accused God of a meaningless exercise. But then again, may be the eternal fire looks cute

I think i just accused him of being Hitler.

You happy now?

shdemidemi:

As one who knows exactly what awaits the wicked, Jesus told the story of a rich man who was tormented in hell:

And the rich man cried out and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.”

But Abraham said, “Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.” (Luke 16:24-26)

From this graphic interpretation of hell, does it seem like it is a one time destruction or a continuous torture of the wicked?

yes, this looks close to the widely held view of hell all right. I'm almost inclined to agree with you
but let me push a little further

I thought that there is a teaching that suggests that abraham's side of the divide was evacuated with the resurection of the lord
is there no possibility that the fiery part would also be evacuated and and its inhabitants permanently deleted?

shdemidemi:


Bro .. why do we give names to things in the first place?

behemah is called beast in the english language, I see no problem with the name. do we really have to overstretch the issue of names, is it pertinent to the discourse in any way?

I agree
no need to overstretch it
but for the sake of knowledge, it is generally useful for you and others to understand these word/name nuances
pls correct me if i am wrong

For example if you say someone was called Adam because he was taken from the earth, then you are technically correct
but if you say someone is called Man because he was taken from the earth,... then you are not correct
although the hebrew word Adam roughly translates to man in english, but their etymology is different

shdemidemi:


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels

that a fire is everlasting doesn't' necessarily mean that folks burn in it continuously
after all and so to speak, if you put paper into an everlasting fire, the paper will burn off, while the fire continues unabated

shdemidemi:


I don't think it has anything to do with english.. their Hebrew name behemah which is different from malak/angel.

u didn't get it. let me try again
etymologically speaking, the english word "beast" is not as a result of your assertion viz:
"They are not a living soul(inner man and outer man) like man and that is why they are referred to as beast."

i.e english word does not have any definition or ascription of a beast as a being which has no living soul like man

In order words, in the strictest sense of logical english language construction, your assertion is wrong

If for example, you say a cuckoo is called a cuckoo because that's the sound it makes, then you could be very right
but if you say a goat is called a goat because it bleats, this wont be an accurate reflection of the reason behind a goat being called the name goat.
English called that animal that bleats a goat. It could have called it any other name
So now you also call it goat when speaking english

..i could explain further

shdemidemi:


Yes they do have a spirit if interpreted as the element of life but they were not created in the image of God.

They are not a living soul(inner man and outer man) like man and that is why they are referred to as beast.

Nope....
thy are referred to as "beast" because that is the name they have been given in english
english could easily have called them angels and called us beasts, and we would know no better.

hope u get it

lastmessenger:

....
Bros park well.I know where you belong. When your pastor supported immorality you were busy all over internet defending him.When an idea is not coming from your pastor it won't make sense to you.

Ahhhha now I get it

you mean he is one of those that can only think what pastor is thinking
and will only accept what you say when im pastor suddenly introduces it as a doctrine


I once had a close friend just like that
if I tell am something,...im go argue tire with me

but immediately pastor receives new revelation and starts teaching what I had earlier shared with her
she go accept am without wincing
then carry the rhema come give me, even forgetting that I told her same thing earlier

This topic was posted in the business section not political section
Discussions should be sensible and not full of political sentiments.

Now, I'll offer my input

With such cheap market rates, we should start thinking of selling oil to ourselves and not to others
That means we swiftly turn our economy to a production one and not to a consumption one

The easiest way for us to do this is for the government to concentrate its support on some three or four Nigerian companies
by creating protectionist policies that provides an instant market for them
The government should also proactively shield these select companies from corruption by applying its judicial might on any one that that breaches the sanctity of the model.

Example
Lets say Innoson motors and ALSCON are two of such companies
The government creates a policy that forces at least 70% of any metal needs of a public project (state or federal) to be bought from ALSCON
The government also encourages Innoson to patronise ALSCON for at least 90% of its metal needs
The government (state and federal) creates a market for Innoson by purchasing all its vehicles hence forth from Innoson
Using its ambassadors to other African countries, it also creates markets for Innoson vehicles in any country the we provide with military support

Finally, the government creates a plan to untangle itself from these companies and allow them compete when the oil prices stabilize.
It does this with the companies, so that they are also not left with a glut when the economy bounces back.

With regards to corruption in these shielded sectors
the government goes into a frank talk with the judiciary for the need to be swift and decisive in these shielded sectors
If any of the managers or government officials such as police and tax men touch one kobo
they are immediately brought to justice without any godfather interference

@ lastmessanger

I like what you wrote
Its really sad this whole bondage of hell fear thing

And it seems the Abrahamic religious establishments probably apart from Judaism is benefiting from feasting on peoples fear of the great beyond.

Now I personally do not have any stand on whether Hell exists or not, although its obvious that most of the verses quoted to support the concept of eternal torture cannot be said to be conclusive pointers to its existence or eternal attributes

An interesting paradox is that many of those who dangle the concept of hell, offer you an olive branch out of it that is based on their concepts of righteousness, they then gleefully seem to wish everyone who does not agree with their view should be thrown in to the place.

I remember how my friend and I in our tender youth were chilling in my parked car cuddling our girls
and then came this woman looking haggard and walking past us
Not looking directly at us, she shouted condemnations at us for sinning.
After her conviction, she summarily sentenced us to hell

.....uhmmm

tosag:
For a long time now, I've been praying to God for a job. I've fasted, prayed and even gone for deliverance at MFM twice, all to no avail. The bible says in the book of psalms that God is love and that His mercies endureth forever. If God is indeed merciful as the bible claims why hasn't He heard my cry for help? Even me, an earthly father will not sit and watch my own biological son, whom I brought into this world to suffer for something I know I can provide him. My question is " Is there anything I can do to make God see the seriousness of my situation and for Him to come to my help?". My fellow nairalanders pls I need ur candid advice and suggestions.

My initial reaction was to question why you are praying for a job from God, why are you fasting, and why are you going for deliverance
but then I recall the scripture saying that a drowning man clings even to straws

I do understand the desperation. I've been there, and still go through such straw clutching moments sometimes
without the fasting and deliverance sha
all I get back is a deafening silence

But so far, I've noticed something
As long as I just keep on pushing for what I want
being confident that God is not like the proverbial native doctor that says
"ah, why did you eat egg in the morning? ahh,..why did you not wake up at 12 midnight on the dot to recite so and so incantations?"

ideas begin to sip in gradually
I begin to act on them, ,...and soon I get results.
Probably not exactly what I want, but its likeness
Like TD Jakes would say, "success does not look like success when you are there"

Meanwhile during the process of 'waiting'
I noticed that I do have some form of sustenance. If not materially, then a kind of strong fortress within me that stands tall against the storms.

I am pretty sure that you have friends and family that are presently standing behind you
that itself is a gift which you should be thankful for and learn from, for now
for soon, whether God be for you or not (...I believe that he is for you)
You'll be the one supporting others

..cheers

tbaba1234

Your post title is dubious and you should know this

but mehn

..una dey use harsh words on una sef ooooooo
dishonesty, confusion, liar etc

can't folks just argue for the simple reason of seeking to understand better and to develop some rigour in presentation and question answering.
None of us sabi it all, and are all susceptible to some error at least

All we do is just touch the elephant in different places and tell what we think, we see, or feel, ..God no vex.... afterall, even people wen write Bible add their own tche thcere join ... women must cover hair etc

...although some kolo folks go touch the elephant tok say na tree of life dem touch and that you wen say na lie are not spiritual

Bidam:
As for man he is a spirit that has a soul the body is just a house for the man. The body dies, the spirit lives on after death.

Who told you this?
And who says the soul does not return from where it came from if the body returns to its own chemical origins?

shdemidemi:


Atleast you admit there is such a place, isn't that a step better... god frosbel on the other hand does not believe there is a place as such.

We don't need to believe the same things
even two similar scriptures do not tell the same story.

In the days of Jesus, everyman go waka go front of temple tok him own tori from wetin im read from Torah

but wait a minute
why would we read the bible that talks about several things in several ways, and chose to emphasise the worst ones?

Like I would say, Jesus who was the Son of God and indeed God as we would argue came to earth
he branched Israel where he walked on water
he apparently could fly too by faith, but didnt

Instead he preached to a narrow audience and left the others to face judgement in a hell that would last forever
Ok, he appeared again to Saul, but probably avoided selecting and appearing to folks from the hinterlands of Africa to preach the news that would have saved them from eternal punishment


.....habaaaaa!!!

pause.... rewind and think again
there is something we are not getting right about the concept of Jesus, God and the fiery judgement vs bountiful reward.

It took one man, Martin Luther to challenge the established orthodoxy of his days from whence we hear that saintly miracles where even wroth.

......go Frosbel ...goooo

even if I no participate, I go clap well, well

Bidam:
The conclusion of the matter is that Revelation 20:10 never said Satan and the false prophets would be annihilated and destroyed thus becoming extint. It said their torment will be day and night for ever and ever. It is simple to read and comprehend really. Why are you forcing your opinion into God's word. You can ask God if you see Him why He should torment d devil and his disciples day and night abi?

this is a better argument for hell
However it says little or nothing about humans burning forever and ever, whereas it distinctively points to Satan, the beast et al suffering such a fate