₦airaland Forum

kodded:





what about the FOI bill

It is one step at a time. You should expect him to frog jump na

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Credits to http://androidxda.com/replace-kinguser-with-supersu

I cant wait to kick Mimiko from that seat. Could you imagine that there is no light in almost 4 local government for more than a year in Ondo state. There is no lga councik where our complains can be lodged. There is only the state government which is not showing any sign of concern.

Mimiko has become Igi buruku and must be pull down

9jacrip:
Ela was the god that brough writing to Ife. Has nothing to do with Jesus.

What was Yoruba writing like in the ancient days?

macof:
Folykaze I thought we had agreed on a compromise
Anyway. .. am very familiar with the Odu about Sango and like I told you Ifa speaks history and Spirituality even in the same Ese Ifa
It is left for you to understand and identity them
It's not easy really. ..this has even caused the famous "Oduduwa coming from the sky" controversy


I remember that thread and I stil agree with the message. .. The Imole are present in the natural world... their Ase are visible as things like Metal, rivers etc but restricting them to Scientific elements(which was the case) is not advisable. ..they go beyond what you can see, feel or capture in a cylinder

There's nothing wrong with calling Iron Ogun(Iron is filled with Ogun's Ase afterall...and to reach the spirit you go through its Ase in the physical) but not when you restrict Ogun to a mere physical element by saying Ogun is Iron... maybe I made a statement that it's wrong to call Iron Ogun bt that was just due to the tension of arguement and debate


I hope you understand what I'm saying now

Hey Bro.

I know there are more to Orisha than the scientific or naturalistic essence I choose to hold on to. I know my boundary which makes me limit my discussion on this particular essence. I know how versed you and 9jacrip is when it comes to historical essence of Orisha. And maybe one day, we will have someone that can 'ki odu Orisha ni ko kan'.

Cheers man

wiegraf:
Yes, my good genius. And the whole point of the post, in case you missed it, was to demonstrate why it is very much in order to ask which god.

Wiegraf will always prove he is omni-foolish.

The Op base on his believe that weah96 is an atheist, he asked him why he thinks God does not exist.

However, atheism have been defined countless time as the disbelieve in the existence of God. God in this context is not defined which implies that it be could anything and everything God mean.

Christians can claim they believe in God but when we probe further, we know what they mean by God and that is Jehovah.

Do atheists tend to define what they mean by God? No.

Therefore we have to assume they disbelieve in anything or definitions that made up what we call God.

Immediately weah96 asked if the OP meant Jehovah or Allah, this is a missed target that reveal that atheists believe some other God do exist. The evidence is there and already proven. You can eat that.

wiegraf:
Of course, the point is well lost on you. I'd have better luck trying to explain this to a gibbon.

Unless, of course, you're purposely being dense just so you could inject your nonsensical "atheist" spirituality into this convo

That would be giving you too much credit tho

that doesnt stop plaetton from believing Ra is worthy of worship.

Weah96 is not excluded from this insanity of believing in pantheistic God.

wiegraf:
You don't even know the basics....

the·ism
ˈTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: theism

belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

Theism

belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

Theism

Holy me!!!!

I think you just run like a mad dog to these websites looking for definition of theism while you left your brain in the kennel.

The flaws in this definition of yours are;

- Not all theistic religion hold believe in creator God. Jainism

- Not all God in theistic religion sustain relationship with their creature. Aborisa do not have any relationship with Eledumare.

- The wiki rejection of the narrower sense of theism is the greatest fallacy of the century. This hold that theism as depicted there is monotheism and not theism in the general sense.


That is why I said you need to understand the ABC of each word.

THEISM 101

To put it simply, theism is a belief in the existence of at least one god - nothing more, nothing less. Theism does not depend upon how many gods one believes in. Theism does not depend upon how the term 'god' is defined. Theism does not depend upon how one arrives at their belief. Theism does not depend upon how one defends their belief.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blrel_theism_what.htm

Now look at the statement in red and tell me how polytheism rejects narrower sense of theism.

It is the same dictionary that defines atheism as wickedness and a belief that God do not exist. That you are too stupiid does not mean others dont scrutinize each definition from your so called dictionaries.

And again, do you notice the word 'especially' and specifically'? The two words are used to single out one person or thing over all others. Monotheism is single out and you stupiidly took that to mean theism.

My position holds and I remain firm that since theism depend not on how a God is defined, atheism simply mean rejection of all form God without considering how the God is defined or the form it takes and the type of theism it falls in

wiegraf:
Please, replace the vacum in your head with something capable of digesting knowledge, and note the difference.

Theism is effectively the belief in a personal god(s) of some sort

Deism is the belief in a god(s) that essentially doesn't give a f.uck (indeed, it need not even have supernatural attributes)

Pantheism is even sometimes described as some sort of souped up atheism. 'Nuff said.

Hopefully you didnt know how blind you are to deny divinity of God among those forms of theism.

There is no God either in monotheism, polythiesm, pantheism, deism and panentheism that is not divine or lacks lack divinity attributes. God is not about been personal or impersonal but Divinity.

And stop been silly and dumb.

Theism: Believe in at least one God/god. There is nothing more to this.

Pantheism : It is a belief in god and divinity. Therefore it is samething as theism.

Deism: another belief in god. There is even a believe in creator God here

Both are subset of Theism. Pantheism and deism is a branch and form of theism. Theism in the broadest sense just means the belief in a or multiple god/s, so you could think of deism and pantheism as a form of theism.

Therefore atheism is opposition of theism (believe in God/gods and every form like pantheism and deism attached to it)

wiegraf:
You say this thread isn't about jehova or yahweh? Oya, abeg, which god

Another dumbness from wiegraf. Are you asking me which God because you believe in some God? I might say I hate America. It is fooliahness like you are displaying here to ask me which part of America.

Theism is about believe in God without minding how it is defined or the form it takes and in numbers it come.

Atheist are expected to disbelieve in all forms of God. Not only just Jehovah and Allah.

wiegraf:
What is wrong with you?

And you have the gall to claim someone asking for clarification is wrong and irrelevant??

Theism do not care about how God is defined and what God mean. Everyone could believe in any form or concept of God they chose. It is understandable that there is different meaning and viewpoint to these Gods but all is still under the umbrella of God.

Atheism which oppose theism means all all forms and concept of God should be rejected. And not just Jehovah and Allah.

Weah96:
No. But the human brain is like a special transponder, designed to convert signals at different depths of neural stimulations. This is my personal opinion after years of psychedelic inquiry. The brain itself, being composed of matter, is a product of consciousness. There is no matter without an observer.

Our ego and super ego may rely on brain matter, but the ID is brain independent.

I create a thread on this topic last year https://www.nairaland.com/1460798/universe-conscious . Yoruba people believe that everything that exist is alive (not in the biological sence but something like active) and conscious. The universe and everything thing therein is conscious.

Make I dey watch from sideline

DeepSight:
^^^ Did you watch the video?

Macof pls I reserve a seat for you bro.

Holy me.

I hope I am not too late?

Weah96:
Escape? From where, Guantanamo? You guys are going too deep with the animism and symbolism for me to coherently follow.

lol

Which tribe are you from?

Erm, i seem not to understand this atheism brouhaha. Pantheism is a wing of theism. Some of atheists I engaged accept and approve pantheistic God but still shout around that they reject of theistic God. Isnt this a kind of confusion to you?

I know and understand how much you reject Monotheistic deity but why cant your stance be definitive? If it is about theism, pantheism which God exist would raise flaws in atheism.


I was surfing the politics section when some called Buhari his personal God. https://www.nairaland.com/2238317/apc-members-reffering-buhari-messiah#32370851 Buhari called personal god and he exist. If by Tomorrow these people dedicate a shrine for him, will you still disbelieve in him?

wiegraf:
Surely others have already pointed this out, but....what a silly post

Even you, "atheist" that believes in god(s), cannot define god properly. Today it's lightning, tomorrow it's rivers. You cannot even provide a straight answer as to whether this your god is natural or not. In fact, seems you opened a thread just to clear up your confusion..

The type of vegetarian could very well be an issue. For instance, one could not have a problem with vanilla vegetarians as he could understand their respect for animal life, but could well have a problem with vegans as he finds the notion of abstaining from products like milk and honey - which aren't in any form life - ridiculous.

Same way an atheist may not really have issues with deists, even if he personally disbelieves in the notion, but have a hell of a lot of issues with theists. Especially those that argue there's a skydaddy somewhere that disapproves of your having sex doggystyle. And unless you have cement in your skull instead of grey matter, it should be quite clear that most of us atheists/anti-theists on these boards have an issue with theists of this sort.

The 'god' in question is quite relevant, implying otherwise is silly and disingenuous.

TL:DR; sharrap!!

The question Op asked is why do you think God does not exist? Did he specify any God concept or religion? So why would anyone bring in Jehovah??

And to your silly rants, pantheism or deism is a subset of theism. Only fools which you are claims he disagree theism God but approve deism or pantheism.

The thread is not about Jehovah and Allah but general God/gods. If you cannot deal with that, you can simply move to another thread

@ Macof.

Good morning chief. I think we need to clarify somethings. Some years back, you were supporting the Motion that a deity is the samething as what it represent. It is two years ago now when you created a thread explaining in details the scientific and naturalistic essense of Orisha whereby you pointed out that they are one. There is even a debate raised by Reginus a year ago where you opening agreed thaat Sango is an electical energy. This debate was borne out of the heated argument between atheists who see Deity as the guyhiding behing the wind and the deity I tried to explain it pure energy. You were there and supported the motion that these Gods are natural elements which buttress the understanding of the universe and natural world by our ancestors. They express themselves through metaphor though I will agree there is more to it. But what I seem not to understand is how you changed this view overtime. What makes you change view? Are you in essence saying you were wrong then and right now? Why do you think your stance then is wrong? Do you see more to natural elements these deities represent? Why dont you share it? Yes I agree there is more to it because I view those Gods from NaturalistiC/Scientific Pantheism angle. To Pagan9ja and you, I believe there is more to it. But I dont need this because I believe there is a naturalistic explanation to all these. This is what I stand for. All the same, I still have interest to know the reason why you changed position.

I promised to add some Ese Ifa right?

Here is that of Orunmila been equated to Palm tree:

Obara Meji

Orunmila, Ifa, mo ni o di oniran iran;
Iraan wa ni i sawo,
A dia fun Ope
Ti yoo maa la taara bi oba ereke.
Igbago, enii mi ni ose;
Imo Ope, eni mi ni o se.
Orunmila, Ifa l'o fun mi lowo gbale;
Ifa l'o fun mi lepo mu jesu;
Orunmila l'o fun mi ni adi bu soju,
Ifa, ji ki o waa fomuu re bo mi lenu
Bi oniponponpon ba tan inaa tie,
Ori Omoo re ni gbe e e le.
Erigi Alo, wa ki o waa sola
Sile emi Folykaze
Babaa mi, Erigi Alo
Wa dandan ki o waa sola
S'ile Macof.

Lol Ashe wa.

My phone cannot 'to ami ohun' in my words. So I will translate only the bold.

Translate:

Palm frond, it is Mat
Orunmila, Ifa, gives me broom to sweep
Ifa gives me palm oil to eat yam
Ifa gives me oil I cream my face with
Ifa, come and put your breast in my mouth.

In these verse, Ifa is said to produce broom, palm oil and cream. Ifa is even regarded to as woman with breast. The breast here is Emu ope (Palm wine).

We all know these are produces of Palm tree. Hence, Ifa is Ope is Orunmila.

Another pointer is in Oturuupon meji;

E waa wo'fa awo ki,
B'o ti n se.
Ifa de, alase
Ebora, abise;
Ope, abise wara

Ifa here is Ebora and also Ope (Palm tree)

Ifa is sometimes called Ela and Agbonmiregun. I wont argue that these two has anything to do with Ope (palm tree). But in essense, Ifa, Ope abise is the samething as saying Ifa is palm tree.


Now let me move to Arira ti n se Sango omo Oranyan.

Ifa tell us something about it in Okanran Meji;

Patambole okitibiti.
A dia fun Arira gagaaga
Eyi ti i s'omo Oraanyan l'Oko.
Nigba ti Sango n be laarin Osiiri,
Ti Olubanbi n be laarin Ota
N'je kin l'Arira fi sete?
Igba Ota (edun ara).
Igba Ota l'Arira fi sete
Igba Ota (two hundred thunder stone).

Notice the bold. Arira is the son of Oraayan in Oko village. Arira is Sango who goes with the name Olubanbi. Monamona is the common name for lightning but Ifa call it Arira. Arira gagaaga is simply Lightning strike or flash.

Here is it [img]www.giangrandi.ch/electronics/lightning/lightning-picture-1.jpg[/img]


This is what I got from the Oyeku Efun FB page:

Elemona lawo inu igbo
Elemona lawo odan
Dia fun Orunmila
Ifa nbe laarin ota
Ifa nfi ojoojumo kominu ogun
Ebo ni won ni ko waa se
O gb’ebo, o ru’bo
Orunmila lo di Arira-gaga
Ni Arira-gaga
Arira-gagaaga, Sango surewa o wa gba mi lowo ajogun
Arira-gagaaga


Translation

Elemona is the awo of the forest
Elemona of the plain
Ifa’s message for Orunmila
When he was in the midst of enemies
And was contemplating the problem of crises everyday
He was advised to offer ebo
He complied
Orunmila declared that it is a matter of thunder strike
And I respond that it is a matter of thunder strike
Thunder strike Sango please rush here to protect me of enemies

The bold shows that Arira is lightning strike or flash and it is Sango.

In Okanran meji;

Ifa kilo fun Sango,
Ifa kilo fun Arira pe
Ko gbodo ba awon omo oun ja.
O ya enu koto,
Orin awo ni n ko.
O dowoo re, Arira
Ile awo dowoo re, Sango
Afi eke o,
Afi Odale;
Bi Sango ba pawo,
Ile l'o da.
Afeke o
Afodale,
Arira o gbo do pawo.

This verse indicates that Arira is Sango. This implies that Sango is the samething as lightning flash.

I remember my friend dad who happens to be Babalawo asked me to bring aweda. I was looking around for Aweda without knowing that it is Ewe lapalapa. In the spiritual circle, this leaf is called ewe Iyalode. Anyway I am Ogberi so i am not expected to know.

That lightning is called monamona does not mean it can not be called Arira


We need to bring it down to Ogun lakaye Osinmole and why I think Ogun is a metalic element.

Excerpt of Oriki Ogun;

Meje ni ire,
Meje Loogun
Ogun Alara ni je Aja
Ogun oni gbajamo, irun ori ni je,
Ogun gbenagbena amu eje
Ogun Elemona, Oje igi ni mu
Ogun onikola, aje igbin
Ogun korakora ni je ekuru funfun,
ogun onire, agba Agbo,
Bi e ba gunyan nile, efi toogun sile,
Bi e ba rooka nile, efi toogun sile,
Nitori ogun lo roko,
Ogun lo pa ajuba

Notice how Ogun is described in seven ways.

1. Ogun is eats dog. Here like mu mum do lash me then for eating too much. She used to say I eat like Ogun. Here she explained that Ogun is the knife she holds. She implies that knife eats everything it cuts. Therefore the cutting of Dog with Ogun here symbolize it is metal.

2. Ogun eat hair. Ogun gbajamo mean barber. Those who barb do their job with Ogun. The process of Ogun cutting hair is the samething as eating hair. Here again Ogun is metal.

3. Ogun drinks sap. This Ogun is described with craft work. Agbegilere is the samething as gbenagbena which mean craft men. They do their job by using Ogun to cut wood and finetune it into a know shape. In this process, the sap thay comes out of it is what Ogun drinks. The Ogun here is their metalic tools. It is proven again that Ogun is metal.

4. 5. 6 and 7 all proofs another essence but which ever way, there is a pointer in the other three description that indicate that Ogun is Metal.


I wont deny that there are more to this Orisha than the scientific esense I choose to hold onto. However, in there natural essense, they are what they represent.

Orun mean lot of things. The womb is Orun. Also the sky is Orun. What the Yoruba people call Orun is non physical plain. Iron can be physical and at the sametime become non physical.

You done make Weah96 escape.

macof:
Well Folykaze good luck. I have learnt how to not make assumptions regarding Isese
My advice for u is to do likewise... modern science is far behind Isese in the knowledge of the Energies surrounding the earth so there's no need to be fixated on using mordern scientific theories to validate Isese

Btw Arira is not lightening, Monamona is

And another thing, Imole are said to come from Orun where they dwell, they come do what they have to and go back. Metal doesn't do that but Ogun does

Oga goodnight. Tomorrow abeg.

macof:
You once spoke of Gaia. .trying to force her on someone earlier on this thread. . U also spoke of Ra

You just started with Ogun.

Wait! Let's take this step by step.
1st You should know that Spirituality is deep, nd even more with yoruba that make reference to historical characters as they speak of Spirits
Sometimes historical events make up the myths surrounding these Spirits such that produces a Deity. Take Sango who is the myth surrounding Arira (the spirit of lightning), or Osun surrounding Olomitutu(spirit of fresh water), or Obatala for Olu-iwaye , Oduduwa for Olofin Otete

2nd, lemme leave out Greeks now. ..
Elemental/Natural Spirits/Energy are Imole
Deity is Orisa.
But the logic behind the word "orisa" is different from that of "deity"...understandably due to their different cultural background.
Orisa refers to an entity (including humans, objects) that is considered special/unique/important. .hence you have "Ko si Orisa bi Iya" no deity like mothers, Great ancestors like Obatala, Ogun, Sango, Esu, Oduduwa, Orunmila are Orisa
These people are remembered for their contributions to life and celebrated during festivals. The mouth we use in eating is an Orisa. Opele that Awo use to divine is an Orisha. In today's world Phone is an orisa. The face/eyes is an Orisha. Money is Orisa
These things are all venerated ...hence A bo orisa
Veneration of Orisa

I've already explained the logic behind the word "deity" earlier. However the ancient Europeans treat a deity the same way Yoruba treat orisa..and that is with veneration




Imole are spirits, Energy. ..not exactly energy talked about in physics...that's "Ase" . . People misunderstand what "Spirit" really is.
Spirits/Imole are incorporeal entities that develop the Natural world, they are the actors behind Reality.
They are pure and free energy

3rd, All material objects have their Ase, this Ase is the integral part of the object. Metallic objects have their Ase...This Ase belongs to Ogun and all Ase in Iron is part of Ogun. Ogun constructed Iron but Iron is not Ogun.
when yoruba call Iron by the word "Irin" we are not mad.. we know exactly what we are doing. It's not madness or confusion that drove yoruba to call river "odo" yet the one who constructed the river is known by another name

Yoruba say that Olodumare(who is also an Imole) gave his Ase to other Imoles, it's the Ase that makes the Imole active(infact that makes them exist at all) .. its the Ase that the Imole like Ogun use to put the natural world(Iwarun) into shape
How then can you reach the Imole if not through their Ase in the material objects?

Ogun is not calcium, calcium is just one of the many important things Ogun gives to the world

Just like Sango is not lightning but the source of source of it

I so much appreciate your detailed reply. Reading through it got me having a loud laugh. This post contains facts but not very absolute. The first page, second and fairly on the thirs contain some truth while the whole remaining rest is falacy and wrong. All the way, kudos bro.

On this thread, alot have been discussed. Nothing can be said about pantheism which is one of those things we discussed without mentioning Gaia and Mother Nature. These two are pantheistic Gods though many religion, especially Hinduism and some African religions have employ it. Since the thread is about God without a definite concept, I have no other option than to bring pantheistic Gods when needed to support my argument. In all fairness, this is not relating to forcing those Gods on anyone. Ra as paganistic and Astrolaristic it is having the nature of Pantheistic God. Weah96 admitted Mother earth is God and Plaetton too admitted Ra is a god that should be revered. In Pantheism, God is a metaphor or poetic synonyms for the laws of the universe. Gaia or Ra is just another name for Earth and Sun

On the case of Ogun which I brought in in your case, I always put Yoruba spiritualism into the nets of Naturalistic Pantheism. Nevertheless, we can understand ourselves better with that.


1. I understand that Yoruba spirituality has a lot of essense emboldened in it. I will like to inform you that this essense is more than History. There are lots of Moral, Cosmological, Romantic, Poetry, legendary essense that made up every stories of an Orisha. Like I explained on this link https://www.nairaland.com/1447731/renounce-atheism-agnosticism/5#18327019, the Human named after Orisha were vessels which the orisha manifest itself. On Sango the human and energy I said "Sango the man is a vessel allowing the ase (energy) of sango to manifest as sango allowed. Using lightening to do so..... sango the man did greater things using/manifesting sango ase and when he dies, he rejoins his source and becomes a form of sango". The Gods are wise.

2. Irunmole the primodial energies. Everything that exist according to the Yorubas is alive and very conscious. Consciousness to us is Ori while those we collectively or individually venerate is Orisha. Ori is an individual deity meaning every entity has Ori and are Gods. Orisha simply mean selected consiousness. I think I explain it here https://www.nairaland.com/1815402/all-aborisha#24732743 an Orisha is a selected consciousness within the great consciousness which makes infinite possibilities known as ELEDUMARE. In Yoruba spirituality, everything in the universe is alive and conscious. This means there are many ORI including that of ours and much recognition is given to some SHA (selected ones), therefore engagement with Orisha practise can stand. As it is known, the ancient tends to view natural forces, elements and the consciousness as a person or Gods which give rises to Personification of water, human, trees, and every other entities around us as God or person.

Personalized entity is the samething as that which is personalized. In this sense, Ra in the pantheism is a metaphoric or poetic meaning of refering to Sun out of respect. Gaia is the name given to a respected earth. This is the metaphor which directs no where but to that entity which it represent.

3. Everything has it Ashe. True that. This is where fact ends in your reply. Irin is a common word for Iron but it is Ogun in the spiritual circle. The same way Ekuro is the common word for Palm kernel but it is Ikin in the spiritual sense. That a palm tree is Ope to you is Ifa to Babalawo. That Arira is Flashing lightning to you is Sango to Awo. The gods are the samething as what they represent.

Tell me who Ifa is here pls:

Ifa lo fun mi lowo gbale. Ifa lo fu mi lepo ti mo mu jesu. Ohun Ifa se fun mi mo me ni gbagbe.

(I will post the complete verse when I get my hand on Oju Odu at work tomorrow)

Ifa there is the same Orumila. Ifa in that verse is Ope (palm tree). Now tell me Orunmila the deity is not Palm tree a natural tree.

And again, your Ori is a deity judging from the saying Ori eni ni Orisha eni. What is your Ori if it is not the natural you? Macof you are a mere man to some people but a Deity to those who understand the concept of Ori. Ori the deity is the samething as the natural you.

Sango is Arira. Arira is light and fire that flashes in the sky. This is basically lightning flash and stroke. This is lightning. This is Arira. This is Sango.

In my Odu Merindinlogun of Wande Abimbola, there is a verse there that said arira ki n pa igi ise, Arira ti se jakuta be larin ota. We both know that Jakuta is Sango. Jakuta is Arira and Arira is Lightning which mean Sango the deity is lightning.

I dont even need to break down Jakuta here. No human throws the thunderstone except Thunder which is still Sango.



I will advise you to stop taking too much ogogoro. It makez you eat your own vomit. It is more than a year so maybe you have simply forgotten that you said these thing:

as Folykaze has explained before, Sango is the potential Electric charges which are convert to form Electricity, lightening, thunder etc.

https://www.nairaland.com/1556154/sango-electrical-energy.a-debate-btw/1#20238134


Igbagbe lo n se e

[b]Hydrogen (H) Is the lightest element and the primordial source of water(H2O), it is the most abundant element force in the universe. Yoruba spirituality personified this as Yemoja.

2. Helium (He) is the 2nd most abundant element force in the universe, existing mainly as gas(except in extreme conditions). Helium is rare in the Earth's atmosphere with traces of it trapped in other noble gases. (I am still trying to understand this element but for now I see this to be Aganju)

3. Lithium (Li) a soft, silver-like metallic substance, it is the lightest metal element and the primordial source of Iron material. it is present in all organism as Lithium ion. Traces of it is said to have been present during the big bang. Yoruba personified this as Ogun. (Yoruba creation story attributes Ogun to be the forger of the silver chain)

4. Solar wind is a term for the elements of nobel gases captured within the Sun's atmosphere. These elements can be free from the Sun's gravity with time and consists of Oxygen and Carbon. (this Yoruba spirituality personified as Orungan)[/b]

https://www.nairaland.com/1577497/god-science#20628009

I dont want tobgo foreign but pls let me bring in Venus here. Venus is a roman god and also a planet. Both of this identity indicates Venus is a morning star. Therefore Venus the planet is the Venus the Deity. This is simple.


A brother you are to me. We have learnt alot of things from each other and, I respect you so much. What I pointed out above has been my stance for a very long time. I am not confused as you think but just that Folykaze is a guy that doesnt mix things for pleasing some guys.

Conclusively, there is nothing like God in existence expect that which is called God. Anything can be called God. Any essense can be metaphorised as God. This God might have all human attribute. All the same, the God is still the entity which is deifed.

gatiano:
Jesus might be Eshu.
Somewhere in the bible, Jesus said people would make him up has the devil and refer to him as the devil.
Aramiac name of Jesus is Yeshua. Y... ESHU....A. white people just corrupted it.... From Yemitom, A confirm Yoruba person.

What do most Yoruba christian and moderm muslim refer to as the devil? and call zeus (jezeus) god unknowingly to them?

Emusan is not confused at all.

And who becomes Elegbara in christianity?

Jozzy4:
Dont mind him , He is a confuse person .

He is brainwashed

Emusan:
And what will happen if I do?




As far as I know the understanding of two different people on ONE POINT/OBJECT varies.

How a Yoruba man understood Moon is different from how an English man does, yet there's only one Moon.

Maybe Jesus is Eshu huh?

Eledumare is not Jehovah. Jehovah is Orisha Oke. . .the one worship in Abeokuta

macof:
I don't the name but there's one in India. ..now a dump but due to its history of being venerated people still keep with that tradition

Veneration doesn't necessarily have to be about deriving anything extra. ..its appreciation, respect, nurturing for what you ordinarily derive something from.
One's mother will first show her importance before you begin to venerate her not the other way round. .at least that's the normal thing

I am not talking about prayer here or sacrifice...this is a different issue that demands a different approach
You talk of what makes something God. ..not the importance of sacrifice which is a different thing

Oga saying veneration is not necessary for a deity is completely wrong. Deity is just another rendition for "deus"... it has no special meaning to what "God" is ... Deity/Deus/Theos all mean God and they all used to mean "Concept" or something close to "Theory" ....

Iroko in Yorubaland is a tree that is considered King of trees like Leopard is considered King of animals. ..the sacredness of a thing is determined by the importance perceived by the people around it. ..what you should do is to find out the importance of Iroko tree, what it stands for to west africans
I don't know the importance of Iroko but that's no reason to declare people just wake up to venerate any random thing...

I still dont understand how you arrive at this importance of a natural entity that brought them to a divine status. Actually I have asked around what makes some local God, a God but all I could get is not factual and tangible enough to accept. So it seems majority of people worship a deity even without knowing the reason why and what makes they deity worthy of their worship.

I know what a deity is and understand that veneration can be directed to high valued entity. Veneration has to do with appreciation, respect and be in awe for something. This mean veneration is not necessarily meant for a deity. People venerate their natural environment without thinking of it as God. Those who venerate do it to appreciate while those that worship and pray do it for a favor. I did not say in any of my post that people venerate for a favor. What I said is that people venerate for appreciation while people pray for favor.

True Iroko is the king of the trees. You should also know also know that Peacock (Okin) is the king of the birds but no one makes sacrifice, prayer and regard them to as sacred entity. Okin is very common among the Elewe-omo who put on display it egg, fried head, foot, feather and heart for sales. Leopard heart and skin is in the Market. Hunters kill it at sight. No one among the Yoruba has ever worship or put those animals in high regard. Igunnugun slef dey attract more respect than those so called kings.

I do not know the importance of Iroko which other trees do not serve. Iroko tree receive more than ten sacrifices a day. There is no purpose Iroko serve which other trees do not meet but the question of what makes it sacred or a deity that receive deity or sacred is the ish. This indicates that there is more to it than just purpose. And maybe you can just tell us what purpose those deified natural entities you know serve which other type of them do not.

macof:
Then those who venerate it should tell u why they do so. It's madness to venerate something that you cannot identify it's importance
The case here maybe the river has a history of being venerated or the river itself is a shrine housing something you don't know


I believe all these questions are you joking around cus you know what pagan priests do

Can you pls tell us the historical reason why a particular river you know about is been worship and prayed to?

You should understand that I am not saying veneration. Everyone can venerate their natural environment without much importance derived from what they do. This is quite different from praying to or making sacrifice to something. Those who venerate appreciate nature while those who worship and pray do it for a favor.

Veneation is not necessary for a deity but worship and prayers to a river or tree indicates these entities are deity.

So tell us sir what makes them a deity.

Why Iroko is perceived as sacred while the bamboo is not?

While do people go into the thick forest to pray to Iroko and place sacrifice on it foot while Mahogany tree which is more important for construction is not revered.

Pls note the word importance.

Those that cut wood from the forest barely cut Iroko tree. They either reject the contract or make serious ritual before cutting and another when hauling out. People often reject it for roofing. Yet you will see big and small Ebo surrounding the tree unlike "meelaina" that is very impotant.

I am not joking here. . . .I really want to know the qaulity which makes Iroko a sacred tree whle Mahogany is not

macof:
you just added Ogun to your last post. .it wasn't there when I first read it

Folykaze do you want to keep believing this bold parts or you are interested in expanding ur understanding?
Because I think we are going back and forth

Btw what is wrong with Greeks. ..they are among the earliest people to use God to explain Nature

Have you seen me talking about greek Gods once? I know very little about them so I choose to stick to only that which I know.

I just added Ogun to my last post ke?

Mr, Yoruba understand nature and explain it to their own understanding. You know my position and that I will always stand on it. The deities IS the samething as the essence it represent.

I guess an answer to my questions will provide better understanding to you.

How is Ogun the onija ole different from the sword drives into the heart of robbers victim?

How is the Ogun bone moulder different from Calcium?

How the Ogun the blood sucker different from the sharp metalic object that cuts the skin?

Let me add Sanponna, how can you separate it from chicken pox?

This is the third time I will be asking this question without an answer coming from you.

So Mr Macof, the line is draw. Fall in sir.

Weah96:
I'm unfamiliar with Yoruba spiritualism, but I'm well aware of the different parts of human consciousness from years of psychedelic drug use.

Ori and consciousness is God. You agree to this.

Weah96:
I couldn't imagine offering a sacrifice to MYSELF, but praying to oneself is not farfetched. It's akin to a sprinter who stretches before he runs. It doesn't guarantee a victory (there are other sprinters stretching too), but it allows him to generate his maximum performance at that point in time.

Does all prayers guarantee victory? Nope.

But in which ever way you choose to pray to yourself, I will like to know if you do pray to yourself.

Macof pls follow this Aborisha forming atheist

theunusualmoon:
Quoting weah69:

"Who said that the big bang was an accident? Does mother nature do things by accident or by her nature? It wasn't an accident. It was carefully arranged by the universe itself, not an alien or humanoid being with consciousness."



Do we conclude that you believe in god and in your opinion the universe is god?

You dey mind Macof and weah96?

I only dont understand what is wrong with my brother.

Weah96 is running from his shadow.

Loooolll

macof:
Dude all u are trying to do is force god on others
If my post is pointless to u even with the libido and Venus analogy then u are truly confused and quiet reflection is what you need
I don't have to address every word but the entire message in whole...

What nonsense is this?

Lol

I asked you what the difference between Ogun the deity and Metal is and all you could do is insult my person. Bro, I do not want to go down that path with you.

I am asking you to explain yourself. How is God different from the plain nature of God? I presented two local deities/sacred entity and all you could do is to jump at greek Gods. Like wtf?

Ogun is the God of Iron. How is it different from Metal?

How is Ogun that drink blood like the Yoruba believe different from Sword that cuts?

How is Ogun that eat plant sap different from the Cutlass we use to cut plant?

Do I need to source out where you said Ogun the deity is Iron? I wont do that but pls tell us the difference between Ogun the bone moulder and calcium.

How is Iroko the sacred tree different from the ones in sawmill?


I dont yet understand how I am forcing my perception of God on others. We have argued this on different occassions and I will always hold my position that a deity is the samething as the essense it represent.

Sango is eletrical energy, thunder, justice and lightening. Telling me you dont believe in Sango is the same thing as telling me you dont believe in Justice or everyother thing Sango represent.

When next you see a hunter praying that Ogun will not bath with his blood, note that he mean Ogun (metalic objects) will not struck into his body.

When driver says the same thing, he mean his vechile (metalic body) wont cause his sudden death.

In the real sense, Ogun is a metalic object.

So when you tell me that you dont believe Ogun drink, bath and eat blood, I will just look at you like you mad person.

I hold the ground that a deity is the same thing as the essense it holds.

Weah96:
I believe that I exist, dude. That I decide to call myself a God is inconsequential to the fundamental argument of atheism, this God doesn't influence reality in any magical ways.

Do you want me to bring up the analogy about vegetables again?

In Yoruba spiritualism, one higher self is a God. Prayers are made to it, sacrifice are made to it.

Is that the type of God you admit you believe?

macof:
Folykaze.

"God" doesn't draw from the term "divine" so it doesn't mean divine status. .. rather divine status draws from God

God in philosophy is simply a concept to what isn't ordinarily seen to be communicated with (to understand a phenomena in various measures)

In Rome, Venus is the God of Lust
The romans and Greeks knew well the difference between their concept of Lust (Venus) and the plain act of Lust itself

While many traditions saw lust as evil, they saw it as divine (from God). Know an atheist among the romans might reject the roman concept of Lust (which is Venus) but still believe that lust(libido) itself exist


You see "God" "divine" etc are just misunderstood in this era
Even the awesome Spartacus was said to not believe the Gods existed but he surely believed in War (without believing Ares the concept of war)


And is plaetton the jesus of atheism? Do all atheist strive to be like him?

Macof.

With all due resprect bro, you have not answered any of my questions in the other post. Allyou wrote is frankly pointless.

Go back and address my post.

Weah96:
Must a vegetarian tell you that he doesn't HATE meat from plants.

George Carlin prayed to the sun, claiming that his returns were 50/50. He also called himself an atheist.

He is a joke.

Atheism is disbelieve in the existence of God.

Weah96 who is an atheist believe a God exist.

Now lets put a stop to the joke

Weah96:
I worship my higher SELF. If that is a pagan deity, then I've been schooled. There are no books, no rituals, just quick moments of acknowledgment.

I only began doing that after realizing that my higher self is basically indestructible, kinda like the original Green Lantern.

evidence to this pls.

Atheist believing and worshipping non evident God. What a joke

macof:
You should read my last comment. It answers this
And to add to that: When people acknowledge the importance of a thing, they tend to honour it, respect it, nurture it.
Animists don't do worship, but veneration.
Hence My mother is venerated by me, the river is venerated by many due to its importance in their lives, some venerate their smartphone, cars etc

Some people actually honour rain water.
How Do You Know the water in GP tank isn't venerated By anybody? That shiit saves lives you know

The Omisebo in my street is not serving any importance other than accumulation of waste. People dont drink it, there is no farm close it, the fish there is not serve little kids who do not recognise it is God, and it chase people away and destroy properties when it rain heavily. So why is it worshipped when it is not serving any importance?

I think you understand what I mean when I said worshipped as God. There is a temple for worship, adherents/priest/priestess, there is a special sacrifice, prayers and rituals directed to this body of water which happens to be God. Why?

Weah96:
According to your village logic, the vegetarian would be wrong for making that statement because garden eggs and bananas have meat too.

You're so confused to the point where you don't understand your own confusion.

Which God are you talking? There are different Gods, just like meat can come from both animals and plants. The vegetarian is implying animal meat, and I'm talking about conventional theism. There are many different Gods within the arena of conventional theism, and my reasons for dismissing each one vary.

Tell us basically you are not atheist to non-conventional Gods. The pagan Gods

macof:
To be honest Folykaze you seem confused.
You are a brother but I think you need to get certain things straight here.

Atheist don't believe in the divinity of whatever. ..doesn't mean the plain face nature of that thing is non existent

Lol. This makes me laugh.

God to you mean a divine status. But how do you define a divinity?

I will call on you on my new thread but before then can you tell us the difference between God and the plain true nature of God.

How is Ogun the deity different from metals and Iron? Is the Ogun that drinks blood diferent from the razor blade, cutlass and knife that cuts through the blood?

Is Iroko the sacred deity different from Iroko ordnary tree? Tell us this difference pls

macof:
Using Ra/Sun logic doesnt apply to any atheist because he would rather let go of the divinity of the sun which is Ra and retain the Sun in its plain and obvious form

Another joke.

Plaeton is an atheist who admitted Sun/Ra is God and should be worship.

There is a popular atheist who proclaimed the sun and not the son should be worship.

These are athiests who see God in an entity without divinity but importance like you said on my thread.

macof:
Even atheist disagree with Pantheistic notion of divinity of the universe

Many people don't know that the original meaning of the word "God" from its numerous evolution through different dialects and languages is actually "Concept"

Not knowing the meaning of God is not atheism. Atheists rejected the notion of God because they had the knowledge of what some people said it is.

God in pantheism is neither supernatural nor divine (in the sense of theist). This is why Darwin said in his book that "Deists differ from pantheists in that the deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence, rather than the pantheist's metaphoric or poetic synonym for the laws of the universe. Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism.

Pantheism is simply redefining god to be something that exist. Any atheist claiming he/she disbelieves in pantheists God is insane because we know those Gods exist

macof:
As I said in the other thread, God is a concept, a notion based on the understanding and imagination of Man. ..hence man made God in his image. .not the other way round

God existing independently as a concept, entity or Idea is one thing, making it appear in our own image (anthropomorphizion) is another thing. We all know that something was perrsonailized and raised to divinity statues. So the question is what makes that deified object worthy of people's worship?

What makes Olokun, Yemoja, Osun, Yemowo and Oba Gods? Why are they worshipped, prayed to while the body of water in swimming pool or in Geepee tank does not attract such reverence?

Why is rain water wasteful but the little water that flows through my street have dedicated shrine?

PastorAIO:
There are holy wells too.

What authority does a river have? It can have the authority to heal diseases. It can have the authority to confer children. But it must be approached in the right way. same with the Tree.

Authority is the same as dominion.

Cure disease and confer children? This is funny and hillarious. How pls?

Is disease cured by the River and Tree by praying and making sacrifice to it or by devising a method of using it for curing? If it is by the former, how is it possible? If it is by the later, well I dont think the so called Gods should be revered because we applied our own wisdom.