₦airaland Forum

hopefulLandlord:
Apostle Thomas. Guy asked for proof and Jesus gave it to him but when I ask for proof I'm told to trust it's true and act like it's true that I should put full trust in a book written by man and had been written, rewritten , revised, rewritten , translated , retranslated, reretranslated, translated again , had some words removed, had some words added, revised again, then a council decided the parts that are worthy and those that aren't, then revised again , retranslated, reretranslated, handed over to my ancestors by their pink skinned slavemasters, translated again, retranslated again and finally passed on to me.

lmao u want to compare yourself with Thomas? Did God call you like He did Thomas, that He should prove Himself to you?

When last did you see with your own eyes a miracle occur either to you or to someone else. I don't mean when last you read or heard about a miracle. Please do share, even add how you felt when it occurred or why you feel it occured.

For those who don't understand the meaning of a miracle, it is something that occurs beyond the natural, it goes beyond healing or any natural possible occurrence simply put it is humanly impossible for such to occur.

fman:
did u type all this?
Or you copied it

typed it, why?

Jesus said let our yes be yes and our no be no, Matthew 5:37, for whatever is more than these comes of evil.

At times we need to guard on how often we speak, for when we speak too much, secrets, lies, gossip and hurtful things may be spoken. Ecclesiastes 5:7
Prov.10.19 When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise.

We also need to guard our hearts and our thoughts, so evil doesn't present itself.
Prov.4.23-24 Keep your heart with all diligence, For out of it spring the issues of life. Put away from you a deceitful mouth, And put perverse lips far from you.

Phil.4.7-8; And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

When our thoughts towards others are good to bring them to a good end, we preach the gospel but when we harbour any form ill thoughts or feelings we speak to bring them down.

When we speak what people say, when it's not true, it's gossip, but when we say what God says then it's the gospel. Jesus asked the disciples who do people say I am, but he only commended what Peter answered, as what could not be revealed by flesh or by blood. When we speak to others do we tell them what other says or what God says? When we think bad of others do we shut it up, when others bring false accusations do we encourage them or shut it down by verifying the truth?

When we open our mouths to speak, do we speak as children of God or as children of serpents, do we speak the good news, the gospel, or do we accuse falsely, lie and gossip?

When people falsely accuse you or spread lies against you, report them to God, rebuke those who do so they repent or they end up like the devil cast down, overcome them by the word and truth of your testimony of God.

At times we have heard people say they didn't think before they speak, what they said may not have come from their thought but it definitely came from a defiled heart filled with unclean spirits. When our words destroy(what is good) than give life, we are not children of God but those of vipers, for Jesus said in John 6:63 his words are Spirit and life. So do what we say bring life to others, or death to them, their progress, their relationships.

God doesn't like gossipers, they are like grasshoppers and crickets, hooping around and making noise disturbing peace.

Proverbs 6:16-19; These six things the Lord hates, indeed, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look [the spirit that makes one overestimate himself and underestimate others], a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that manufactures wicked thoughts and plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

This scripture shows that God hates those who look down on others to lie, make up stories and are quick to swear falsely against others and sow discord. No gossiper aims for peace but division.

What we say can either bring us judgement or favor, blessing or curse, either to ourselves or to others. That's why while we guard what we say, we must also guard against those who speak to us. What if Eve never listened to the serpent?

We live in a communication age where numerous rumours and gossips spread, filling people with hate or fear, how we handle what our ears hear affects even our faith, for faith comes by hearing Romans 10:17. If we are not careful to discern what we hear about God or others in the present world, we may be led astray without knowing it.

God wants us to be so careful about what we say that there is a command against false accusation, Exodus 20:16; 23:1 you shall not raise a false report nor bear false witness. If you are not sure about something keep quiet about it, even if others speak about it.

Words are powerful and scripture states that the fall of man began with the words of a serpent which brought death to the human race when those lies were believed.

A lot of times we tend to easily believe what we hear, probably because it agrees with what's in our hearts or because we are persuaded to easily believe something that sounds so sweet or interesting, without verifying if it's true.


Words can be so effective and powerful, that during the time of Jesus, false accusations had to be raised so he could be killed, and till date the devil keeps accusing the brethren, spreading lies and attacking the body of Christ with various forms of rumours and gossip. The sad part is when believers no longer seek the truth, stand firm in faith nor speak the gospel but partake in the chain of spreading gossip and hate, against those whom we should love and even those who fellowship with us. Jesus speaking in Matthew 12 said;

You children of serpents, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Why refer to people as children of serpents? It is because they spoke just as the serpent spoke and their words brought nothing good. As humans we can decide to be children of God or children of the devil, the serpent, based on what comes out of our mouths.

Even as the Holy Spirit can give God's children utterance, demonic spirits can as well, if we are not aware of what influences us when we speak we may not be aware when we have become vessels to serpents or play devil's role in the lives of others and bring nothing but division, discouragement and death. And when we are not aware of what is in us, we may also easily believe lies when they are said. Discerning of spirits is an important gift all believers need, especially when we have dreams which may or may not come from God (1 John 4:1).

What is in us determines whom uses us, the devil or Christ, or if what comes out of us is good or evil. Because what comes out from us can affect our lives as much as those who hear it, either positively or negatively. Matt.15.18 But whatever comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and this is what makes a man unclean and defiles [him].

Kobojunkie:
Only a one who is either ignorant of the Truth of Jesus Christ or intentionally blind, or even deceitful, would be able to ignore the contradicting ideas offered in Paul's letters.

would you like a new thread so you could share with me and open our eyes to these contradictory ideas

Kobojunkie:
Indeed much of what is contained in those letters directly conflict with the teachings of Jesus Christ, while there are numerous attempts to add to God's LA as given by Jesus Christ, which is what the Gospel really is.

care to share all those things contained that are direct conflicts with the teachings of Jesus Christ

KnownUnknown:
After all the nonsense you wrote we are back to square one. Of course your will continue to celebrate “those who die for what is right” just like your abrahamic cousins. She died “for what is right” from your perspective and she was killed “for what is right” from the killer’s perspective.

what rubbish is this one saying

Kobojunkie:
1. You are not making any sense at all. Jesus Christ declared God's New Covenant/Law ratified and finished when His blood was shed on the cross. There was not part of it that remained unfinished after that.

2. You dey comprehend at all?

No man has authority to add or change or remove from that which God has decreed. Jesus Christ is God's New Covenant Law and Gospel and that Gospel is eternal meaning it will never change - God will never change His Law in any way, not by Himself or through any man..

3. And the Word of God refers only to that which comes from the Mouth of God Himself aka Jesus Christ.

Who said anything about changing anything, and oh the fact the world still exists thousands of years after means God is not done yet. Like is that hard for you to understand, read your revelations.

No the word of God is what comes from God Himself, and Jesus is the word that comes from God and Christ dwells in us, for the Spirit will give us what to say.

You have limited yourself, if Abraham stopped listening to God he may killed Isaac.

Since this simple words don't make any sense to you, you either learn or remain stubborn. And stubbornness is idotary and iniquity, you misrepresent God by lack of knowledge that you insist not to gain from Him.

Even Jesus after he rose taught them. Even the things they couldn't understand the Spirit led them. The commands we must obey are those given from Christ Jesus but he gave no table of stones but he gave us his spirit and the offices as gifts to the body of Christ, men like Peter, John, Stephen, Phillip, Timothy and Jude

Wilgrea7:
I'm curious. On what basis did you arrive at the conclusion that 2 bears can injure 40 men while all of them try to run away. No matter how i try to think of it, it doesn't seem possible. 5, sure. 10, maybe. 40? I highly doubt it.

Also, what gives you the impression that the "youths" were "driven away", and not killed?

And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.

42 of them, not of all.. meaning they were probably so many, a lot, could number up to 100 but the one counted where the ones injured.


Na why una supposed calm down dey read scripture

Wilgrea7:
I don't understand. The claim of omnipresence is not one of multiple gods being spread out across the earth or universe. It's one god, being everywhere, all at once. So the Elohim analogy doesn't really contribute to the situation.

so which do you believe, does a being that is Omnipresent have need for more creators?

aren't you the one telling yourself Elohim has to be in a particular way?

The concept of an eternal god i was discussing wasn't dealing with death. It was dealing with birth, or creation. Which is another way of saying, how do you know that your god, whichever one you believe in, wasn't created. Our universe has been shown to be about 13.8 billion years old.

lol you have no idea what eternal life or existence is, because everything around us has a time limit and dies. But if we understand that nothing truly dies, why would it be difficult to accept that there's a God with no end.

Who said God wasn't created , He is self created besides if you understood the Hebrew word for create, you may understand how God and the universe exist.

Is it impossible for a god, who created the universe, to have also been created, let's say 200 billion years ago. If no, then why not? If a god created this universe and everything in it, is it not possible for the same god, and whatever reality it exists in, to have also been created by another being?

an origin is an origin, just like 0 is a beginning, you can have a 0 and a 1, the moment you have another 1 it because 2. This is the very basis of maths and programming. Now the difference between universe having a beginning and God having one. Does God have a beginning?

Interesting point. However, I don't agree that all systems necessarily need to be maintained. We have examples of self-sustaining systems, like rain-forests. Also, What exactly do you mean by self-sufficient in this context? The universe seems pretty self-sufficient to me, or maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. And how does a creator in this situation, maintain creation?

you don't really need to agree, even a so called self sufficient system put in place may fall apart, maybe once it achieves its goal. Will it continue forever without errors?
He maintains it the very way he made it, with the principles he made it with. Please don't argue the principles, because if you want room for more "gods" there has to be a code of conduct and pattern and standard.

Don't you realise that we men studied nature and learnt from it, you think the way we behave is our own invention. If we have 3 suns and 7 moons and 42 hrs a day and trees grow into the ground, the way we behave, think,act and work would be based on how things are created

That wasn't what I was talking about there. I said a personal God, not a God with personality. A personal God, is one who would want to be involved with humans, or interfere with their relations and in a specific way too. One who could choose to favor one person over the other, or one group over the other.

you mentioned those personalities and those attributes yourself. Now you want to drift into something else, "a personal God". Fine. Do you have a problem with there being a "personal God"

You made reference to a desire to communicate. You'll agree with me that desires are things we choose to indulge in. So my question is, must a god choose to, or want to communicate with humans? Must it care? Is it possible for it not to care, or for it to care, but simply not interfere? If you think a god must care, or want to interfere, why so?

because life is designed that way and He himself is life, eternal life and life cannot die. Even though we are dying the moments we do feel alive, we care, we love, we give and do you think to yourself that a being who is purely love and life would lack these very things we experience sparsely? Does that make anysense to you, that God who is good, shouldn't be good, or a God who is love shouldn't love. Does it make sense to you to have a father that is white and bald but you are black and full of hair. Our inherent nature from our parents is selfish and self seeking but as we grow we learn, we listen, our inner conscience tells to different between right and wrong

So basically, a god who created the universe, would be infinitely powerful relative to us. That makes sense.



What evidence do you have that a god, if it exists, is male. And what proof do you have that we can somehow become like him? This statement denotes that godhood is somehow part of our development process, like a butterfly is to the caterpillar. If so, what proof do we have of such claims?

because the male part is the giving part, is the loving part.. we are the ones with the sex not God but we can only describe him with attributes we can relate to, but God is neither man nor woman but he is both Father and Mother, simplest way of defining his attribute.

The one proof is how we choose to live our lives, do we what is right and good and become more of who he is, or do we succumb to base desires of survival even at the cost of hurting others all because we are afraid to suffer and die

Wilgrea7:
Of course, I've had dreams that seemed to later come true in reality. I've also had dreams that didn't. I've also had dreams that didn't make logical sense. Like opening the fridge and walking into a football field, with people holding a barbecue in the center.

The way the human consciousness works, is something that is still a deep mystery to us. But as far as i'm concerned, it doesn't really do anything to strengthen or weaken the arguments for a specific concept of God. That's why i made reference to things like this happening across all religions.



The universe functioning in unison doesn't negate the possibility of multiple creators. It just shows that if multiple creators did exist, that they simply had to agree on how to create it. We have products created by groups of people. These products were only possible because the people making them agreed on how to go about it.

I agree that everything has a source. But that logic doesn't of course, apply to God. Most theists believe that God doesn't have a source. So if one can exist without a source, why can't 2? or 10?

that's why I said the Hebrew believe about God isn't that he is a singular entity, he might be a million in one, El shaddai, el elohe, el jireh, el Nissi, etc the same being. "Let us make". They speak one voice and complete agreement. We don't count it because there is unity and no division, oneness like I mentioned before. Be it 7 spirits of God, trinity, angels, etc.

Lighthouse50:
Sometimes our churches in africa are just comedy. Truly God do call people for service but out of 100, hardly will you see 4 who patiently waited to know the message they are to render. 96% just claim they receive call from God and starts a church. To make it simpler, imagine a company called someone for interview and he goes to the company to resume work, such will never get paid. We are called by GOD For different purposes but people dont wait to get tested and given a specific task before they build church. Some are called to assist an apostle, some are called to correct a church, snme are called for healing but they dont wait to get their task before starting. NOTE: WHEN GOD CALLS YOU, IT ONLY MEAN HE HAS CONSIDERED YOU FOR A TASK. Its a period you draw close to him to get the task. Before acting. DONT FORGET THAT MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN....

exactly

Kobojunkie:
1. It means God's New Covenant Law was finished and ratified on the cross when Jesus Christ declared it so and died on the cross. And so no man has authority to add, change or even remove from that which He decreed.

Even that which is supposedly stated to have been spoken of Jesus Christ in Revelations cannot change or conflict with that which is recorded as God's Law and New Covenant recorded of in the 4 Gospels.

2. Paul was just a man like you and like any other follower of Jesus Christ, not a god for you to worship or follow in any way or form.

His opinions are what are recorded in those 13 texts you see there and nothing more since they do not overrule in any way God's given Law, Jesus Christ.

a part was finished when he died, but he still rose, so the story and God's word is not over. The end of a day doesn't mean the end of God speaking, there were 5 more days before he rested.

Jesus wrote no books in the Bible, they were written by God's servants, of course no one has the authority to remove or add to God's word, but God still lives and still speaks and still gives the Spirit to those willing, the Spirit that brings words and instructions from God.

True there is no conflict in God's word, be is written by Moses or by Matthew or by Peter, John or Paul or those who live today who are children of God.

2. Isn't it stupid to think that because men follow the instructions and words of God's prophets and apostles, some should think they are gods or are treated as such. They were sent as lights as Jesus was sent to lead and direct God's People, and they receive whatever honor God deems due to them. Whether Paul, Samson, Malachi, Joshua, Jesus, Elijah or Jude were men like us, no wait they were even men like every other man because they had God's spirit with them, leading them and leading others through them.

Now I agree Paul writes his opinions at times not all he wrote were opinions, just as in the old testament men wrote their thoughts down as they also wrote God's word down in them. The important question is what inspires what is written, what is the purpose of it, does it agree with God's nature of love or does it yeild and lead to lust and wickedness.


So except you can show that all Paul wrote were opinions and none were teaching from scripture and those opinions were not stated to mislead, then you have no basis for your statements

KnownUnknown:
I have no bias in this situation and my last response was to a post that did not include the word “if”. All I showed was the similarity between you and your Islamic counterparts.

I’m the opposite of yourself and others who rush to assumptions and stone others to death based on nonsense because stoning others is not a behavior I’m even capable of. I’m not a savage like the abrahamic “law giver”.

if she was speaking the truth and die because of it, she died a martyr, glory be to God.

How would you see, how would you understand, when you have already made assumptions about a person you have just met, yet you justify yourself as being better.

Are you different from the self zealots who condemn and label others, while glorifying themselves. Are you different from those who feel they are above others and undermine those they have barely met or understood.

Did you take out time to read what you responded, or are you saying you are above mistake and better than the rest of us. You have such high opinion of yourself don't. You really do delude yourself by condemning others when you currently are presenting yourself as one of those you condemn.

It's funny I heard once those who say they will never kill may more likely kill and cover it up when put in a tough situation.

Your blindness is not just your bias, but your inability to see your own mistake even if it stares you in the face.

Hench forth avoid quoting me... I will celebrate those who die for what is right and speak the truth, keep your self justification and righteousness to yourself.

ochibuogwu5:
Masturbation IS A SIN ON ITS OWN.
It is not like drinking as a sin when done in excess.
It is a sin on its own whether done at-all or in excess,
whether done by married or unmarried persons.

it's a sin according to you, not according to the scripture nor the ones you tried to quote.

Kobojunkie:
Paul, not Jesus Christ, is the one who supposedly authored the "titled" system of callings that are used in your churches today. Hence the confusion that is your churches since Jesus Christ never commanded such a thing. So, those of you who worship Paul's opinions, do so at the detriment of your relationship with Jesus Christ.

And if you think there are men who are exceptions to the rule, think again. All of your pastors and mogs have at one time or another transitioned from one title to another all in a big to claim more and more.

This would be like the third time you have written "Jesus never commanded" something that was actually written in the new testament by his followers.

Are you saying that only the gospels records Jesus commands and he stopped speaking? Meaning he didn't even speak in Revelations

Or are you saying you are one who knows all the commands and you are better than Paul that wrote 13 books of the new testament?

KnownUnknown:
You don’t know anything about her to determine a “life lived in honesty”. She was murdered by similar religious zealots as her. Killings or suicides influenced by religion means martyrdom to those of faith. To those without that bias it’s just murder or suicide, and there is no god to be praised for such misery.

ain't you bias as well, that you couldn't see an "if" in the post you previously quoted

What makes you different from those who rush into assumptions and stone others to death?

gsegun43:
Oga stop all this shalaye na, I was a Bible study teacher so all this won't do anything. The truth of everything is just that the Bible is a bundle of contradictions, lies and errors. Most stories in the Bible does not make sense.

so you are part of those who taught us nonsense when we were kids because you as well never knew the truth

KnownUnknown:
Two sides of the same counterfeit coin.

is it wrong to give glory to God for a life lived in honesty?

Judedwriter ochibuogwu5
If you both completely believe what you have written then masturbation is as much a sin as drinking, sleeping and eating, especially when done in excess.

ochibuogwu5, Jesus said anyone who looks at a woman, does that include her husband? Or was he saying something the Jews understood. In Hebrew women and wives mean the same thing, so anyman who looks lustfully at another man's wife as committed adultery in his heart.

Because adultery is when a man takes another man's wife for his pleasure.

Now masturbation is a different thing all together, but it's like sex, it can also be addictive and destructive. But there's no place God says self sex or pleasing yourself sexualy is a sin, well the very act brings uncleanness, be it sex or masturbation, and those involved need to wash their bodies with water.

LordReed:
And your point is?

"There doesn't appear to be any conscious drive in this order/stacking/reiteration nor does it appear to be intelligent, just repetitive."

You wanted to know why others believe the universe is intelligently designed. If you don't understand what I wrote, it explains why u believe the universe isn't intelligently designed.

Kayouzka:
5. Note, infinity consciousness can never be good or bad it at rest, it is our minds that creates that distinction, does a lion feel bad when it devour a zebra or does a zebra feel vengeful when it comrade is devoured, we only think of good and evil because of our limited minds.

how do we know what a lion or zebra feels?

Tb222:
God exists, there are many testimonies concerning that... First the bible proves it, two :
scientific investigations have also proven it, an organization known as the near death experience research foundation has proven the existence of an afterlife, mainly reported by people who at a point in their lives faced death and were certified dead, only to be resusicated , 75% of them reported seeing themselves traveling through a tunnel or dark void at incredible speed, they reported seeing a bright light a million times more glorious than the sun.
Although this light was so bright, they somehow could look at it, they reported being overwhelmed by an incredible sense of peace and wellbeing, the purest form of unconditional love that they felt at the presence of this light moved them to tears, they somehow could converse telepathically with this light or higher self as some reported.
Others reported seeing Jesus Christ, seeing large meadows with the greenest of green, flowers of incredible colors with millions of colors never seen on earth, crystal streams and rivers, "everything seemed to be alive" an experiencer claimed. They were often given or shown a review of their lives from when they were born to their present state. One reported "I saw everything i had ever done, the words i said, the help i rendered, i also saw the consequences and ripple effects of my actions, i felt the emotions of those i hurt like i was the one being abused, i felt so miserable, it was a hopeless feeling i never want to experience again, i decided there and then to change my ways and life for the better". Every single individual who experinced an nde( near death experience) came back a changed person with a quest and zeal to impact humanity selflessly and with love." God is love, he is the purest indescribable form of love you can ever imagine" an experiencer said.....
To listen to compelling nde stories you can go to the near death experience research foundation website: www. nderf. org or simply download spotify , go to the podcast section and search for nde stories, i bet you your perspective on life and what lies beyond life would be challenged.

thanks for sharing

Lighthouse50:
There are thousands nf gods, these gnds have their own people. Those gods too know who is the most powerful among them. Every land and tribe have a gnd(s). Sn not one. Each god tends to show their power through their people. Listen, science is a god on it own and has die hard follower who only listen to the voice of their prophets (scientist). The confusion on earth is everyone claim to be a follower of the most powerful.

because no one wants to feel inferior to another

Wilgrea7:
Another thing I wanted to talk about, was the rulership aspect. For example, the world we see today has rules. And according to your belief, those rules are set by a single entity. And if i'm understanding your argument well, if multiple entities existed, they would disagree over the rules of the universe, and hence, it is impossible. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

While I do accept the argument, I'm still proposing that laws, and rules, can still exist, even with the existence of multiple entities. Let's take a car door for example. It can have several dimensions. On the drawing board, the engineers in charge of making the car can put forward different ideas on how the car will look, or what dimensions it will have.

But in order for them to progress and actually make the car, they need to unanimously, or by majority, agree on a specific dimension or set of values. Your analogy is great, but it assumes that if multiple entities were involved in creation, they would not at least, have had a sort of drawing board to put ideas on, or a sort of voting process in order to agree on how the universe is eventually created.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

the existence of other creators doesn't mean a supreme creator doesn't exist, the rest just have to follow the will of the first

Wilgrea7:
I've answered. No. A thing cannot create itself.





Have you heard the phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". I'm honest enough to admit that the world we see could have come into existence through a number of different ways. There doesn't seem to be evidence for a particular way, like the one you guys believe in. And that's my point. I'm not against any particular belief system. I'm simply asking, why people believe in the specific one they do? I'm asking for the evidence that shows the world exists through a specific way, as opposed to the other ones.


As you see, there is no valid multiple scenario at all.

so basically you can understand the concept that what we own doesn't mean we created it nor did it create itself, meaning a land we own was created by someone or something but yet we own it by laying undesputed claim to it or paying the price required for it.

Now you ask for evidence, is your existence not enough evidence that creators exist? Did you create yourself?

We have never witnessed evolution or a simple jump of existence from a non living thing to a living thing, speak less of from nothing to something.

Wilgrea7:
I understand your analogy of the house and the landlord. And I don't disagree with it. But like I said earlier in our previous discussion, it's not about rulership. It's about creation. The act itself. We had a disagreement on what the different things equate to. How being the owner of a house, does not necessarily equate to being the builders (laborers, electricians, plumbers, painters etc).

This topic is about the existence of a "creator God", not an "owner God". Sure, we've agreed that they can be one and the same. But I've also pointed out that it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. And besides, I'm more focused on the aspects of creation, rather than ownership.

The reason I used the words "Creator God", is because most monotheistic beliefs attribute the universe to being the literal creation of a supreme being. Not a case of a supreme being telling angels or servants to create things on its behalf. No. Most talk about a supreme being, creating everything BY ITSELF. Which is synonymous to the landlord doing every single bit of work by himself. The painting, tiling, plumping, wiring, etc.

In addition to that, while I applaud your landlord and house analogy, it is not the only analogy through which a thing can be created.

For example, a baby needs 2 adults of the opposite gender to be able to create it. In this case, you can't argue for a single right to rulership.

A group of people, can for whatever reason, agree to work on a project. We're still dealing with multiple people, but right to rulership can be debated. It can also be disputed.

A single person can also gather tools for example, and create something like a box, or a watch.

I am not trying to argue that these cases HAVE to be true. I agree that any of the cases, including the one you believe in, may be true. My question is, with the existence of multiple scenarios and possibilities like this, through which a universe could exist, on what basis do people who hold specific beliefs, like the monotheist, or polytheist one, base their conclusions.

the point of ownership and creator being different would be based on who paid the creator for the job?

If a creator makes a thing out of his own expense then he owns it. Now it comes down to who brought about all that exists because we were born without the food we needed but we meet the food, meaning someone provided it. So the question of what is above will always be there, because there will be needs and demands for supply, either from the universe or from the maker of the universe, just as children make demands from ther parents who spun them

LordReed:
My own observations don't lead me to accept that conclusion. My understanding of the physical laws of the universe around us shows that what we call order is the effects of these laws stacking up on themselves, one could almost say the universe is reiterative with reiterations producing sometimes novel effects. There doesn't appear to be any conscious drive in this order/stacking/reiteration nor does it appear to be intelligent, just repetitive. I would like to know why your own observations leads you to accept such a conclusion.

nothing begins without a force starting it, and nothing ends without a force influencing it. Whether there is order or chaos there is a cause. Now if the universe is self sufficient then it is "God" and it defines all that occurs in it, the fact that order exists means there is something that gives that order. Chaos exists where there is confusion, and where there is no need for order or a cause for it.

Wilgrea7:
There was another example which he gave, that really got me thinking. It was about witch burning in the medieval times. And he said something along the lines of "If we knew someone conspiring with the devil, we'd want to burn them too". And that got me thinking.

And this is my own perspective. In the absence of the god factor we're trying to prove, we term something good, if we think it is good, and bad, if we think it is evil. Now, I know that sounds cliche, but hear me out for a minute.

When we think of the devil, we think of the most evil being imaginable, and we think of evil, we think of things that reduce happiness, or the human condition. Theft, hunger, Pain, suffering, etc. If we saw something as evil, we would feel justified to destroy it. The witch burnings happened because the people thought they were expunging evil from their society, even though technically, "thou shall not kill" was supposed to be part of the golden commandments.

The wars of israel in the bible are often justified by christian apologists, by saying they were fighting against evil people, and sinners. But when we look deeply at what this evil is supposed to be, it turns out to be things we don't like, or in other cases things that worsen the human condition.

For example, if i asked you, if you would shoot a random person walking on the street, you would probably say no, and say that it's a bad thing to do. But if I asked you if you would shoot someone in self defense, to protect yourself and your family, I'm guessing you would say yes.

As another example, most people wouldn't steal from the poor woman hawking tomatoes down the street. But if given the opportunity, they would still from a politician they believe to be dubious, to give the woman selling tomatoes. Because they believe the politician to be a bad person, who probably steals from people in the first place. They would do something considered bad (stealing) in order to combat something else (a lying, stealing politician) and still feel justified by it. Even though we can all agree that we don't like it when our things get stolen.

I'd like to say this is me just thinking out loud, and nothing more. As time goes on, and as I read more, my views may change. But i do think it's something to think about.

Some of these acts we consider bad, like murder, become justifiable when we do them against things we consider bad.

you're right but to clarify something
The commandments says do not murder.. and to murder means do not kill the innocent

What defines the innocent, those who have God's goodness in them. That's why we can kill animals and criminals but not those who bear God's image.

Reason being those who have God's image have received fr God the right to live as long as God wills.

Now I say you're right because what we see as good or evil depends alot on what affects us, but that shouldn't be so. It is so because theres an evil in us called selfishness that places us not good, as priority. It tells us whatever we desire is good and whatever we don't desire is bad, that mindset that makes us think that is what a god should be or that we are such gods.

But interesting God defines good not by desire but by observation, he observes if a thing benefits others and then defines it as good but it it doesn't he defines it as bad. We fell from the state and became too carnal and emotional, clinging to things even when they are destructive

Wilgrea7:
I don't think you understood my point. I'm not arguing about why things are created the way they are. I agree that in a controlled scenario, things get created the way the creator/creators intend.

What I'm asking is why the attributes of the creator theists believe in, are that way. Based on our observation of the world, the attributes of the creator can be many different ways, and not just the ones most monotheists believe in. So how exactly did they arrive at the conclusion that a God, if it exists, HAS to be that specific way

because we believe we are created and we look within us seeing what we are given to identify who gave it to us.

Same way kids try to identify their parents but there own attributes or how close they are to them.

It's natural for a man who has an innate driving skill to feel his parent of generation had such skill, were racers either of cars or horses. It's because there's inheritance that why we can trace the source, even of trees and rivers