₦airaland Forum

Wilgrea7:
Thanks for the recommendation. I must admit that I don't have the time to go through the entire book. But I have been going through the summary of each chapter on Litchart (I'm still at chapter 5). And while I appreciate the book, it doesn't really seem to answer my questions.

Now, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. In the beginning chapters, C.S Lewis argues for the existence of a God, from morality. He says regardless of where we are born, and our society, all humans have an innate knowledge of what good and bad are, and the moral law imbibed in our nature, is just as real as any natural law, like the law of gravity.

The issue with the argument for morality, is that it is so skewed, it is difficult to build a specific case on it. Sure, I agree that humans all throughout history have had concepts of right and wrong, even though they disagree on what things are right and wrong sometimes.

But the fact that people disagree fundamentally on things like that, only shows that if morality is indeed a natural law, it is not a well defined law. To say that right and wrong exists, while simultaneously doing nothing to explicitly define what things should be right, and what should be wrong, is not a really strong point in my opinion.

It seems similar to saying that there are objects that are black, and there are objects that are white, except in this case, people consistently disagree on what things are black, and what things are white. And the objective standard for determining these things is not in any way clear.

Secondly, I still don't see how those arguments address the fact that the creator of the universe could have its own creators, or how we can't have multiple creators, or why the creator/creators, if they exist, have to be personal in the way I defined.

For example, in the case of multiple creators, all they need, to create a moral law, just like any other natural law (which C.S lewis claims) is to simply agree on what it should be, before creation. I'll use the analogy of a car. All it takes for a car to have certain dimensions, is for the engineers working on it, to agree on those dimensions.

I'm not explicitly saying it has to be multiple. It could as well be single, as C.S lewis claims, but his analogy works perfectly well if they are multiple as well.

I'll keep reading through, and I'll mention any other issues I find as i progress in the book. Thanks

People can argue away their conscience when they have personal motive or desires to gain things that contradict that very nature.

People argue the moral rights of homosexuals, while denying the act required for procreation, why? Personal desire.

Now why we can't have multiple creators, is because creation is a mind thing and has to have a goal. The universe functions in unison shows it seems to have a goal which may be obvious to some or too grand for others to see. Everything has to have a source, a Genesis.. just the way we don't start counting from 2 but from one.

MITCHELL96:
Precisely, it's when you try to know who the actual creator is and how and when it was created, that's when you get more confused.

It's better we just believe God exists, as time goes, more things will Unfold.

To be honest with you, they're sometimes I even pray that God should kill me and bring me back to life again, sounds funny, just to see what life after death looks like, with this I'll really know if all those things I learnt while growing were true, like heaven and hell and stuffs like that and also to see and experience what the bare eyes can't see.

lol but not everyone who has died saw God. I doubt God lives where death is

Wilgrea7:
I also agree that there's something behind the existence of anything rather than nothing. But figuring out what that thing is, is where things get a lot more complicated.

I'm happy your friend came back to life. But one issue i have with alleged visions of the afterlife like this, is that they're often based on what someone already had an idea of.

If you check most people with near death experiences like this, it's often with someone who has either heard of, or believed in the existence of something like that.

Stories like this exists among all religions, so it really makes you wonder.

True our dreams are based off real life experiences, like sentence based off letters we know. But what better way for the spirit realm to communicate other than using what we can relate with.

Is it possible for the blind to dream of lights or the deaf of sounds.

But again how possible is it for us to use what we have to feed ourselves a specific dream. How much control has a human over their minds and brains not to speak of when they are asleep, do they define what they see.

I bet you not everyone who has heard Christ's crucifixion as had a dream about it, and yet someone who heard it once a long time ago, has multiple dreams about it.

Our minds are something, people dream of spaces years before ever thinking how vast it may be. They named stars, planets probably without knowing so much about them.

Have u ever dreamt of something that hasnt happened and it did happen, question is what made you dream of it?

Wilgrea7:
1) A SINGULAR GOD

Why exactly does the creator need to be a singular entity? All attributes we can observe, like conscious or intelligent design, can exist perfectly fine if there are 2, 3, 10 or even 100 creators. Why does the concept of a creator need to be singular?

People often say if there were multiple creators, they would run into conflict. Why exactly do multiple higher entities have to fall into conflict with each other? The fact that humans and other life forms on earth do it doesn't mean they (the alleged creators) need to do it.

And even if they do, how do we know it's not something that's bound to happen in the future, and we just don't know yet?


2) AN ETERNAL GOD

Why exactly does our creator, if it exists, need to be eternal. From our current observation, the universe began about 14 billion years ago. What law is stopping our creator from having another creator? What stops our creators from being 30 billion years old, or even 300 billion years old?

A common objection is the infinite regress fallacy. Which is to say that if you say a creator needs a creator, then you go back infinitely needing creators, which is illogical.

Except of course we don't necessarily need 1 generation of a creator. We could have 3, 4, or even 100 generations of creators. Of course there's no way to prove it. So why do we come to the conclusion that any creator we have, happens to be eternal and timeless?


3) A PERSONAL GOD

People often assume that if we were created, whoever created us MUST care for us, or be kind, and loving and whatnot. But what exactly stops the alleged creator/creators of the universe from being evil, sadistic, or simply, not caring.

We could be created just for the sake of spectatorship, where the creator/creators just want to watch the universe and see what happens. We could have creators who derive joy in seeing civilizations from different planets develop and fight each other, like in an arcade game. Or simply creators that just don't care very much. What rule is there that said a creator needs to be good, caring, loving and so on?


4) AN OMNIPOTENT / INFINITELY POWERFUL GOD

Certainly, whatever made our current universe needed to have been powerful enough to create it. But that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be infinitely powerful. You can get a universe from an infinitely powerful cause. You can also get a universe from a cause just powerful enough to create 2 universes, and not more.

On what basis do we grant omnipotence or infinite power?


I have a couple more, but I'll leave it at this for now. Please note if you're proving any point, you need to back it up with some verifiable evidence. Quoting scriptures does not equate to evidence.

Over to you guys

In Genesis it writes let us create
The term for God in Hebrew is Elohim, a plural term. The fact they write the Lord thy God is one, attributes to unity not singularity. Can something singular be everywhere? Especially if your measure of singularity is physical.

The concept of eternity is hard to accept when faced with death daily, but when we understand that even the basic state of matter and energy cannot be destroyed but can be transferred from one form to another, we see a never ending cycle of things, then we understand that the end for one maybe the beginning for another. An eternal God shows that continuity in existence. Meaning as long as existence exists, it's creator exists, not just to create it but to maintain it.

Nothing created is self sufficient, that's why it needs a creator to maintain it and for that it has to have a creator that cares enough. Now personality is something attributed to a living being, and since what we know if that the highest form of existence is alive then that which is higher must have something higher than life and even having a personality is obviously possible. Just has all things have characteristics but not personality. Secondly a desire to communicate, if the creator has no personality how would he or we communicate.

Power is a measure of what is done or can be done, when we can't easily even calculate the amount of power needed to keep a planet alive or the sun shining, how much more a vast sea of stars. Infinite simply is something beyond human capability to calculate. Like something is negligible not because it doesn't exist but because it's too small, like comparing the square root of quarter to a cubic trillion.

The basis of such labelling is to easy the understanding of the simple to grasp the difference in magnitude.

Simply put defining God is hard, maybe when we become like him it gets easier.

Wilgrea7:
I heard this story as a Christian.. but i never found it weird until i really thought about it.

So 42 children are standing there mocking a prophet.. a bear comes out.. and they don't run?

Like.. a bear can only focus on a handful of kids at a time. 2 bears are really not that much compared to 42 children.

And for some reason.. the children just decided to stand there and wait for their turn instead of running?

Sounds like something only a horror movie character would do

But it is very possible for 2 bears to wound 40 men even while they flew. The 2 bears purpose was probably to drive those youths away

gsegun43:
Are you saying it's a lie?

the very translation and scripture tells you so, u either believe it or believe your own imagination

gsegun43:
Hurt me by saying I have a bald head and/or I should fvck off should not warrant raining curses on them.



I know you will be among the first to condemn Deborah Samuel's killing for mocking other people's religion, and I am not only judging Elisha but also condemning your so called merciful and just god for responding in such manner.



So if your son comes home from school and report his classmates (or juniors) to you for mocking him, you will send assasins to them? And you will come here to condemn Muslims killing for their God oo. SMH.

I don't know much about the Deborah's story but going by what you said, I doubt God sent her to mock anybody much less a religion, but if she was speaking the truth and die because of it, she died a martyr, glory be to God.

You cannot understand the mockery to Elisha, in similar ways whites may not understood why black Americans find the N word offensive, for Elisha it wasn't the baldness it was the go on up, like his master Elijah. An act God did to glorify his master something many didn't believe, something he witness and spoke about, he was mocked on, his office as a prophet was built upon that incident. Men ain't women that get offended when insulted about their appearance but insult what they love or their career.

The basis of your words are that you do not understand the context of what occured. The same Elisha refused to kill enemy troops that came attacking that had chased them for long. If you think Elisha wasn't merciful its because you are either bias and judging a person you have never studied. He cursed the guilty, God decided the judgement, the youths (which are above teens) were wounded. If it was Elijah they may have been dead.

The one reason the wicked prevail in our society is because of how weak judgement is.

You spoke of kids, lol, when in boarding school we had a terrifying headmaster no kid was stupid enough to do something wrong, because they were afraid. The term he left and a weak man replaced him, all hell went loose.


So I ask you again, what those youths did was it right, to gang up on an old elderly man. Is what village would such happen and maybe your father or grandfather would bless them?

Or I am sure you support what they did or may be a party to such people. What about the angels who struck a city of men blind, they should have parted them on the back.


In Lagos a squad of officers shoot and harassed youths protesting peacefully, I don't see anyone commending what those officers did, and that was before death reports of toil gate came out.

It may be funny to you to mock elders and laugh that those who did may have killed, but when you experience such remember what you have said.

famozine1:
Like if a kid just love singing all d time his parents will say surely dis child will surely be a musician in future so if someone just loves like attending all church programs studying screaptures and so on willingly dose dat mean he his a pastor, apostle what do ever

Like today if some men of God tells u dere past dey may say dey are involve in dis dey fail in dat dey failed but dey find out dat it was God dat was calling dem.
Here is a life scenario why by my bro have been trying medicine for like 7 times with good jamb scores but not admitted but some pastor are saying it's God calling I just wanted to know how will I know God is calling me to do his work

A person's interests may be from God or be from worldly influence. And your brother may be heading in the wrong direction towards medicine and as a result is failing, but that doesn't mean he is called. Maybe he is destined to study pharmacy instead or something else, or maybe he isn't putting in the required work to succeed in medicine or certain things are stopping him from studying. All these cannot be based on assumptions but on prayers.

Now pastors saying he is called is one thing, if he himself doesn't put it in prayers, even if he is called he may still fail in that calling

famozine1:
Like wat are signs someone sees dat actually confirm he or she have genuine calling from God some people are just so devoted to things of God later dey said dey have been called some just do things when dey are unsuccessful dey come back and say dey are called my question is if we just love to do things of God or we try many things and failed is it an evidence we are called by God

failing in other things isn't always a sign a person is called, well, it is a sign for the stubborn and disobedient who wanna act like Jonah but God does force anyone to serve him, he may step in their way like he did baalam but it's still a person's choice to answer God's call.

Now being devoted is a good thing, every child of God should be devoted to do good in whatever area they find themselves. And as children of God we are all called from darkness into light. so every child of God should love God and the things of God, but there is something called burden for ministry, where your love leads you to serve and sacrifice more in an area than other would. A grace is given to do so, and the person because a gift to the body of Christ.

There are signs for different callings and offices, signs for the evangelists, signs for the prophets, signs for the bishops

famozine1:
Okay when ur pastor tells u dat u have a genuine calling from God or u dreamt about dat is dat enough evidence u re genuinely called bcoz dis days many shouting am anoitted but u will be somehow suprise if u re devoted to things of God too those dat mean God called u bcoz to me I think people dat are truly called significantly different

you're right God calls people "differently" some directly (like a dream) and some through others–his servants, (like pastor u mentioned).

Then the question is that enough evidence, not really. A calling comes with confirmations, which are different for different people, Paul had his own, Gideon had his. So a person may have a personal encounter and still receive confirmation from others, and the other is what happens after they have obeyed God's call.

And lol shouting "am anointed" is not needed, anointing is something announces the anointed as a messenger of God and confirms the message.

I believe a genuine call as to do with motive and mission a person has or has received for going into ministry. A person with the motive of making money isn't called into ministry, or a person with a mission to be popular or wants to rebel, most times isn't called by God but by their desires and lusts

famozine1:
Please how do I know I have genuine calling from God bcoz dis days u will see different people claiming God called them though some are True while some are not though we are all called but some have genuine calling how can someone know he or she is called by God genuinely thanks

LOL, how exactly does someone with a genuine call from God come online to ask, how to know if they have a genuine call from God

You didn't go to your pastor or man of God to verify the vision, calling or voice you heard?

God who called you did not direct you?

Or is your question, how can anyone not you know they have a genuine call from God.

Well one thing is that they won't seek the opinion of strangers or men but obey God's voice

An example of workers of iniquity those who claim to proclaim God but their character and attitude deviate from Him and His word. By their fruit you shall know them. Do they have love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, humility, faith, self-control

Or do they possess works of the flesh, immorality, impurity, indecency, Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies), envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Dtruthspeaker:
You need scriptural references to tell you that workers of iniquity include deceit as perpetrated by the serpent in Genesis 3 or disobedience as perpetrated by Adam in Genesis 3:11/12 or murder as perpetrated by Cain in Genesis 4:7-8?

To not know this clear proves that you are less than normal!

so to you anyone who doesn't know what you know is "less than normal"?

And you are the benchmark for what normal should be?

Isn't your pride blinding you from actually benefiting from the post

Mystery9:
Power piece. Truly God is not unfair. There are many things we don't fathom know. But we will get to know it later.

thank you

Kobojunkie:
Go back through and reread your own post, or at least the bit I responded to in order to gain clear understanding of what you are being asked here.... this before you come back arguing.
1. So what you, OP, are insinuating here is that when Jesus Christ healed the sick, He only healed some and not all those who came to Him for healing?

2. What has the ways of men to do with God's Way of dealing with men?

3. Did Jesus Christ teach you anywhere in His Gospel that this idea of "favor" you cling to exists in what is the Kingdom of God of which He gave you His Law and Gospel to abide by?

4. You would have to ask her what God she believed she was serving.... the god of the doctrines and traditions of men or Jesus Christ who instead came to save her from the curse that is laboring for the things the treasures of this world?

who is arguing with you? You haven't even started clearly what your view is, and I asked some questions for clarification.

You started with assumptions, asking what I am insinuating. How does that insinuate whatever you wrote? Of which I have answered you already

How does a question of ways of men and ways of God have anything to do with the example of Cain and Abel or Esau and Jacob. I asked you to explain what you're asking or what you want to know? Did I bring up a subject of comparing the ways of men to the ways of God. How did you read that out?

I asked you which one is favor I cling to?

So a making 1 reference of favor in the right direction, is what brought about you writing "favor you cling to"... You clearly lack understanding of what you read or you don't like what I wrote.

And number 4 I didn't have issues with it, but it seems you have personal issues with the post, you've not answered me not clearly stated your point.

Fine your number 4 addresses materialism and their expectations from God, and likely what they have been taught, but that's an example to how or why some feel God is unfair. Did you miss the point of writing those examples down

MaxInDHouse:
You have touched many points but you should know that most people (especially Africans) hate READING so you should have summarized this in two or three sentences.

INIQUITY means deviation from what is right, gross injustice or wickedness.

So someone who is WORKING OUT INIQUITY connotes a
"DELIBERATE deviation from what is right"

Jesus taught so many things and because he's a perfect son of God he was able to practice exactly what he taught but imperfect humans can't do that so we will stumble many times.
Therefore when we stumble and someone called our attention to remind us of what we're supposed to do, we will keep our virtue as true disciples of Christ when we yield to correction but when we try to justify ourself even though such justification can't produce the FRUIT expected of Christ's followers then we have become WORKERS of INIQUITY!

That's why Jesus said this after explaining what fruit is expected of Christ's true disciples! Matthew 7:15-23

May you have PEACE!

summaries is what the same people perishing from lack of knowledge have everywhere and they still perish. If the summaries they desire haven't helped them why keep giving it to them or encourage stupidity with the excuse that they can be better.

Honestly reading only a part could change a person's life, but if someone is discourage to even start because something is long then it was probably never meant for them.

Dtruthspeaker:
"A half-truth is even more dangerous than a lie.

A lie, you can detect at some stage, but half a truth is sure to mislead you for long." Anurag Shourie

Half a truth is often a great lie.
— Benjamin Franklin,

didn't ask you for philosophy, I asked you for scriptural references concerning what you wrote.

At this point who cares if you feel what was written is a complete lie or a half lie.

You brought upon yourself an accusation and you are still yet to verify if the Spirit of God led you or the devil, I doubt if it's the later you would be humble enough to apologize

MaxInDHouse:
That's because Satan has blurred the minds of many so that they can't perceive the glory in the WORKS of FAITH that Jesus' disciples are doing globally. 2Corinthians 4:4
Satan so much blindfold them to the point where they can only perceive that a group's teaching uniquely stands tall above all others {Matthew 5:14-16} despite the fact that this group is small in number when compared to others {Luke 12:32} yet they've swept across the globe with their teaching {Act 1:8} and from all the nations of the earth they've gathered a people who are like subjects for an invisible King, this subjects have formed one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers globally! Isaiah 2:2-4

So we don't blame them it's just that they've not been careful and diligent enough with their study of God's word! Matthew 7:24-27

true or maybe the light is not bright enough for some of them to see

gohf:
Moses records in the book of Exodus that God revealed himself to the people of Israel, God had revealed himself to people in the old testament even from the book of Genesis.

Then what John writes in John 1:18 states that the God who men and women don't see, the only begotten divine son who come from the Father reveals Him.


There seemed to be an understanding that no man had seen God's face, but his appearance or image is what they saw, I believe John was drawing a comparison between the revelation gotten from Moses and that gotten from Jesus. Even as God said, Moses a man who spoke to God face to face, scripture records even he did not see God's face. At the rock Moses face was covered when God's glory passed and he only saw his back.

"Seeing God" may mean different things to different people, but the clarity by which Jesus revealed the father showed that he has seen me not from a distance but from his side, in a way that he saw his face like no other person existing has

Seems the aim of this thread is to attack and not to learn

TMTR:
The last time I checked, the people that brought Christianity to Africa were responsible for the slave trade, killed a lot of leaders who opposed them, raped our resources and women but I am supposed to be the bad one without morals for not believing in their religion

Please make it make sense

"the people"? Tell us who these people are since you "checked"

AntiChristian:
We believed Abraham circumcised himself when he was around 80 yrs! And this is compulsory especially for males in Islam.

okay

Tell me why do u call yourself antichristian?

gsegun43:
It shows from your 'trying to not make it look like grusome murder'

gruesome murder or peaceful murder, does it matter to you.

Oh wait, the more gruesome the more it would fit your narrative, even if it's a lie?

gsegun43:
Ok, so it's right to 'maul' those that mock you?
Well, I have been mocked and bullied before and I won't even thinking of physically hurting those that did so talk more of wishing they were 'mauled' my bears. Thanks.

that's good to know, it's good that you don't curse nor judge those who hurt you

But are you judging Elisha for what he did?
Or do you mock others and hope to get away with it?

For your question, if God kills or hurts all those who mock me, what's my business. If a father or a king does something to protect his children or warn others from hurting them, what is your business?

gsegun43:
You sef know deep inside you that what they did was not worth being mauled - either to death or not, and no matter how you try to justified it, we can still compare it with Deborah Samuel's killing.

how do you know what's deep inside anyone?

I asked you, and ask you again, as least you should know yourself, if you get mocked in the future by all your juniors or by street kids, would you do better than Elisha did?

If you believe mocking God by mocking what he has done or whom he chooses is not worth be mauled for, why not either experience it by being the mocker or the mocked

Dtruthspeaker:
It is not correct because you narrowed the whole of it to only one type of sin.

Whereas that statement encompasses all the faces and different ways sin can be implemented.

so it is not incorrect because it is not wrong, it is only incorrect because your idea of what I said should have been broader. How does that make you sound?

So because I did not write what you want I am wrong?

So kindly tell us how did Saul "manufacture sin"? Or how the word of God which is the real truth, shows what you are saying or are greater than God's word

Maynnmann:
Jesus chrestus is coming soon

Jesus Christ is coming soon

gsegun43:
What are you trying to say?
Do not be afraid to bring out your point pls.

it is written, Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

why assume they were killed?

My point is that they may have just be wounded, and what's your agenda if they were killed? Are you saying you are better than hurting those who mock you

Kobojunkie:
1. Did you read your own write up? According to you, God chooses whom to heal and whom not to heal.

2. I asked you a question since you seem to equate the ways men deal with their fellow men in that block with the way God deals with men.

3. Did you even read what you wrote or is this a copy an paste OP you have there?

according to me? Where did I write God chooses whom to heal and whom not to heal?

I do recall writing, God shows mercy to whom he chooses to. Is that wrong or a lie?

Besides even if you came to understand that God chooses whom to heal and whom not to heal, is that also a lie, is that wrong? Did God choose to heal Paul of his affirmity? Did God not choose to leave Mariam leprosy for a certain period of time? Does God not choose whom to deliver, are you saying God has no choice as all, or which God is referred to in scripture as the one who chooses and selects.

2. You asked, "since I seem" according to you... so I ask you, how did I seem that way?

3. You said I cling to an idea, am I supposed to assume what idea is in you mind as regards what I wrote or agree with something I have asked you clarify or speak clearly on?


Besides how do you even assume a person doesn't read what they wrote and posted... Please be straight forward

Maynnmann:
“how does not worshipping cartoon make you a better person” that’s how your question sounds.

You understand the ancient texts? Bwahahahah
Lol chrestian

who is chrestian? Sorry are you okay, confused or something?


Honestly, please who understands what he is saying

Maynnmann:
Typical chrestians, liars to promote their middle east deities.

ok so what is my business with "typical Christians, liars to promote their middle East deities"? What does that have to do with me?

Maynnmann:
Are you not a yahweh worshipper?

Send me the hebrew and arab classes video YOU have watched

Google them if you are interested

What does who I worship and respect have to do with you ? You have assumed already so why now ask me?

Maynnmann:
The torah which is just the first book of tanahk said it, you may not find it in the version you are using by Wwilliam tyndale.

Yahweh also had a mother which later became his wife, asheera.

so how does all this information help you be a better person?

Oh and that's good if this the person who defends middle East gods...

How do you claim to understand ancient texts or such writings if you don't seem to understand simple writings on nairaland?