₦airaland Forum

MightySparrow:
What is your point?

lol his point is simple and obvious there cannot be two first angels, there is only one first angel before the rest of them

MightySparrow:
One of the Archangels.


I once in your publications decades ago. I can't really remember which now. It was said that Michael is interpreted as ' One like God or who God is ' but the scriptures show us many people bearing Michael.


Num.13.13 - Of the tribe of Asher, Sethur the son of Michael.

1Chr.5.13 - And their brethren of the house of their fathers were, Michael, and Meshullam, and Sheba, and Jorai, and Jachan, and Zia, and Heber, seven.

1Chr.5.14 - These are the children of Abihail the son of Huri, the son of Jaroah, the son of Gilead, the son of Michael, the son of Jeshishai, the son of Jahdo, the son of Buz;

1Chr.6.40 - The son of Michael, the son of Baaseiah, the son of Malchiah,
1Chr.7.3 - And the sons of Uzzi; Izrahiah: and the sons of Izrahiah; Michael, and Obadiah, and Joel, Ishiah, five: all of them chief men.

1Chr.12.20 - As he went to Ziklag, there fell to him of Manasseh, Adnah, and Jozabad, and Jediael, and Michael, and Jozabad, and Elihu, and Zilthai, captains of the thousands that were of Manasseh.

1Chr.27.18 - Of Judah, Elihu, one of the brethren of David: of Issachar, Omri the son of Michael:

2Chr.21.2 - And he had brethren the sons of Jehoshaphat, Azariah, and Jehiel, and Zechariah, and Azariah, and Michael, and Shephatiah: all these were the sons of Jehoshaphat king of Israel.

Ezra.8.8 - And of the sons of Shephatiah; Zebadiah the son of Michael, and with him fourscore males.

Dan.10.13 - But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Dan.12.1 - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

S
The name Michael was in use far before Daniel to mean, ' who is like God or El' No one like God.

I will like you to enlighten us how you make Jesus this Archangel. Just to learn o. No fight.

wait was no one bearing Jesus before Jesus or after Jesus?

You want to believe that God is Jesus but please don't refuse to read what scripture records which Jesus said testifies of him.

As believers we shouldn't hate the government nor the president Tinubu, even if anyone believes they are wicked and cruel. What God expects from us is to love them and pray for them.

It may sound crazy to say love Tinubu and you may think I am his supporter, but I am not. It's when you understand that to love a person also means to correct them and desire their good, that to love also means to hate wickedness and evil. We are expected to love our enemies while we hate the world and the things of the world. If you ask, what then is there to love about your enemies the only answer I can give you, is their soul, is for us to care that they would perish if they continue in their wickedness.

You can love President Tinubu and pray for him and his government without actually liking him nor favoring what he does. There is always prayer for repentance and mercy, and for God's will to be done. But our attitude towards those who don't like us or to those whom we don't like may affect how we think and how we treat them.

The hardship in Nigeria isn't worth disobeying Jesus for, no matter how we feel towards those who hurt and cause us pain, we are expected to do what is right and good. That doesn't discredit the pain you feel but how we handle it may discredit us before God.


Insulting President Tinubu isn't the way, Jesus doesn't expect us to insult those who hate and hurt us. In the new testament we are expected to pray for our leaders so that we may serve God in peace. So that there may be peace in Nigeria for the righteous. You may think insulting them is the only way to hurt them, but do you actually think they feel hurt by such? Well if they do, maybe they do still have some heart but instead of insults why not just speak the truth in love. Well this isn't about them but about us.

God doesn't expect us to prophecy in favor of the wicked and workers of Iniquity, even if you do, there is no peace for the wicked and if we believe God judges there's really no reason to take matters into our own hands but believe in God's judgement and do what is right.


You may say this is keeping quiet against wickedness, no it is not, if you love, you correct, you rebuke, you call to repentance and not insulting nor been rebellious against good laws.

I know some are tired of praying for Nigeria but I want you to know that you are actually praying for God's children and those children who will come through you. If you bless a person or speak peace to a place and it doesn't accept it, it will return to you. If Nigeria doesn't accept you, where will accept you will receive you and you will receive a just reward.

So let's not waste our time hating the government nor the president because of the state of the country, such hatred doesn't help you nor anyone.


P.S I still do not like the current state of affairs nor the corrupt leaders, but I pray they change and I pray that righteousness excels and exalts this nation. While I pray, I tell you all this, God will judge and destroy all those who refuse to repent and stop their wicked ways.

The Gospel is true but some men love lies

2Cor.4.2 We reject all shameful and underhanded methods. We do not try to trick anyone, and we do not distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know that.

sonmvayina:
At least he should understand what I am saying, if he wants to point out what he is not comfortable with, he is free to do so. Not ask a question on what is not even captured in my post..

I understood what you wrote and I pointed it out clearly where you missed the Tanakh but you can keep deceiving yourself

sonmvayina:
Messiah means anointed king/ priest
Anointed with a special oil kept inside the arc of the covenant as part of their coronation.
Jesus was never a priest or a king. So he is not a Messiah.
God and read Isaiah 53,you will see it is not about the Messiah.
The Messiah is not coming to die...he is coming to rule as king in an era of world peace. We're men will hammer their swords into ploughshares. That has not happened.is it?
The Messiah is not coming to die for sins. God already gave the Jews the solution to the problem of sin.
Comprende??

you are a shameless liar

The Jews don't believe that they are the Messiah

They are looking for the coming Messiah who not according to your nonsense coming in an era of peace, but to come deliver them from their enemies and bring peace to them.

Guy you are shaming Judaism, to them the Messiah is a warrior who will make Israel great again

Jesus was not a king yet they crucified for being king of the Jews

sonmvayina:
It is common in Tanach [Jewish Scriptures] to refer to the nation of Israel as a single individual. For example, it says, “And the people gathered as one man” (Nehemiah 8:1). In a revealing passage, “You are My witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen” (Isaiah 43:10), the subject Israel is referred to first in the plural and then in the singular.

So, about whom and what is Isaiah 53 speaking?

Starting in Isaiah 52, the prophet describes the reaction of the nations of the world when they witness[2] the future and ultimate messianic redemption of the Jewish people.

Since the nations viewed the Jewish people scornfully and considered them rejected by God and deserving of Divine suffering, they will be shocked and dumbfounded[3] when they witness God’s unexpected and glorious redemption of the Jewish people.

At this point, the nations and their leaders will be left wondering and conclude that the Jewish people did not suffer because God rejected them, as the nations mistakenly thought; instead, it was because they persecuted the Jewish people beyond what they may have deserved.[4]

This is the meaning of the passage, “he [Israel] was wounded from our [the nations] transgression and bruised from our [the nations’] iniquities” (Isaiah 53:5). Israel suffered from the mistreatment of the nations.

In English translations of this chapter, Christians mistranslate the prefix [מ] as “for” rather than “from.” This manipulates the text to sound as if the servant will suffer for the sins of the Jewish people. Fortunately, some Christian translations, such as the New Oxford Annotated Bible, have acknowledged and corrected this mistake.

The idea that the Jewish people suffered from or because of the nations’ misdeeds is substantiated in the passage, “For the transgress of my [the nation’s] people they [למו–lamow, i.e., the Jewish people] were stricken” (Isaiah 53:cool. The word [למו] is biblical Hebrew and is a plural word as in, “a statute that He gave [למו] to them” (Psalms 99:7). Missionaries incorrectly translated this word as “he” in Isaiah 53:7 to make it sound as if “he was stricken” and therefore speaking about a single individual, i.e., Jesus.

Furthermore, Christian missionaries incorrectly change the role of the messiah from a physical human redeemer from oppression and exile to a spiritual [divine] savior from sin.

Although all Jewish commentators believe that the straightforward identification of the servant in Isaiah 53 is Israel,[5] some, on an allegorical level, identify the servant as the messiah. They do so because, as a member of the Jewish people, the messiah can bear the responsibility to alleviate a portion of the punishment on behalf of the rest of the nation.[6]

A similar example of this concept is found in Numbers 4:19-20, where the children of Kehat bear the responsibility of carrying the Ark, at considerable risk to themselves, on behalf of the rest of the nation, so no one else would die. Amazingly, just before Isaiah 53, Israel is referred to as “bearers of the vessels of the Lord” (Isaiah 52:11).

In contrast to Christian belief, no Jewish commentary claims that the messiah will die for our sins or that we need to believe in, or even know about him, to benefit from his suffering. Even without our knowledge, the messiah’s suffering, as well as the suffering of other righteous Jews, can alleviate some portion of the nation’s suffering.

It is also noteworthy that under the influence of paganism, the early Christians also transformed the messiah into a deity. The Christian beliefs that the messiah dies for our sins and is divine are foreign to Judaism and not based on the Tanach.

I have attempted to present a brief overview of Isaiah 53 and how missionaries distort the original text to fit Jesus into the picture.[7] This overview also demonstrates the danger of reading passages or a chapter out of context.[8]

As King Solomon wisely stated, “The first to present his argument sounds correct, until someone cross-examines him” (Proverbs 18:17)

yes indeed when you have been cross-examined and you have shown yor lack of knowledge of the Tanakh which resulted in your nonsensical argument where you thought by a few words you sounded right to yourself. You keep avoiding cross-examination and answering simple questions, because you are wise in your own eyes.

Just look at you, first cross-examination "to refer to the nation of Israel as a single individual. For example, it says, “And the people gathered as one man” (Nehemiah 8:1)."

Infact those who know the Tanakh know there are far way more better examples where God refers to the nations as a single entity but your nonsensical use of scriptures misguided you into using Neh.8.1 where they gather as one, so if people gather as one it means they are referred to as one person?

In Isaiah 43:10 God was referring to his witnesses and his servant, two different terms, while his servant has the verb following after is singular and muscular. His witnesses are God's people and His servant is whom God has chosen to lead His people.


Infact most times God refers to Israel or Jerusalem as it or she, as to his bride but Isaiah 52:13 is a single masculine noun for a single male servant and that's why Isaiah 49 recorded this servant purpose is to restore Israel.

Using the very Tanakh to cross examine your nonsense shows that your arrogance is only due to their ignorance

Isa.49.5 "And now the LORD says, Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, So that Israel is gathered to Him (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, And My God shall be My strength),...

sonmvayina:
So it wasn't a sacrifice then?
He was executed for blasphemy and possibly treason.

So how did somebody just woke and tell you he died for your sins and you believed

Why?

so now you can actually see Jesus didn't commit an abomination before God.

You need to wake up and read and study your scriptures, was there a promise of a new covenant? Even the Isaiah 49 or which one, God promised to give this seed, this servant as a covenant.

I think it's pathetic that you think when God promised Abraham that his seed would be a blessing to the nations, you thought it was Israel the very nations God divided and left only Judah (+Benjamin) and the Jews were not any blessing to any other nation not to speak of nations. 🤣 so it's the Jews that would bring the gentiles into God's house.

When I said you lack understanding of the Tanakh it wasn't a jest

sonmvayina:
Nah...you are a dummy.
Whaaaaaat?

please close your mouth before the flies and Beelzebub have another feast from it

sonmvayina:


Ok..now we are getting somewhere...

God never ordered it

He just offered himself as a sacrifice and God accepted it. Somebody who yold you that human sacrifice is an abomination will accept it.
You are being deceived, and you don't know it..

if you can't understand the simple words I am writing how do you even claim to understand the Tanakh. Are you now denying your own explanation of human sacrifice.

Or are you saying that those who offered themselves as living sacrifices unto God, not loving this world nor their selves but loving God even at the cost of their own lives were all an abomination in the eyes of God.

If you are accusing Jesus of human ritual, why not clearly state how he performed this ritual which is an abomination. So we can be enlightened by your understanding of what is written

sonmvayina:
Blasphemy and insubordination....and maybe treason.... according to the new testament.

🤣 blasphemy to who?
Insubordination to who?

Maybe yet you claim according to, guy do you know or you don't know? Your assumptions are not helping you in anyway

sonmvayina:
You are dummy..hahahahahha

How Jacob died?

He is talking about the Jews/Jacob/ Israel and his children....the entire Jewish nation...

so Jacob died without an offspring?

sonmvayina:
You have not showed me where God planned the Jesus idea in the Tanakh. All these are just your opinion.

I have you are just obviously been too blind to admit it.

From the seed of the woman, to the promise from Moses, to the naming of Joshua and the appointing of Elisha by the other witness, Elijah, who stands before the anointed of God, all prophetically bearing the same name.

You call them my opinion when you refuse to read and even when you do, you convince yourself that it is a lie. Like God told Isaiah, that is looking they will not see, nor can you even hear the truth, read at plainly for you

sonmvayina:
So what did you make of this portion. Is it talking about Jesus.
Did the person die and have children too...

I have told you a thousand times, Isaiah 53 is about Israel. Israel is God's servant. Isaiah told you 8 times prior to chapter 53. See chapter 45:3-7

3 And I will give you treasures of darkness, and riches hidden in secret places, in order that you know that I am the Lord Who calls [you] by your name-the Holy One of Israel.
4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God: I will strengthen you although you have not known Me.
6 In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other.
7 Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.


See the verse I bolded, Isaiah would have thought you would have read chapter 45 before 53. You see who God says is his servant? Not somebody in the future. Read it in context and find out why Isaiah wrote it.

I should explain to you what you refuse to believe that through the death of Jesus, many become children of God through him, both Jesus and us have eternal life

Why not tell us how Jacob died then came back to life and had numerous children?

You are obviously incapable of understanding the Tanakh even if it is spelt right before you. Isn't Isaiah 45 about Cryus?

Oya look for another nonsense to respond to me with

sonmvayina:
Well explained here

https://www.nairaland.com/6612275/isaiah-53-why-suffering-servant

😂🤣 even when I read writes up in search for what is true, this is one of the most unintelligent and stupid write-ups i have read in a while.

You avoided many key points in the text you are quoting while adding your own porious view, and then attempted to patch another portion of Isaiah to chapter 53 without connecting them in anyway. That's poor, just plain horrible.

You actually called that "well explained" are you indirectly insulting my intelligence. You didn't even show without a doubt that it wasn't Jesus, your half baked statements only showed doubts while ignoring a whole lot of other texts.

What was one solid point you mentioned, you were just being a criminal to sensible reasoning. Didn't Jesus call himself their brethren, isn't he one of God's servants.

sonmvayina:
You are the one pressurising God to accept a human who was executed for crimes as a human sacrifice....

You see why Christianity is a big insult against God. Run from it my friend.

and what was his crime?

sonmvayina:
Ok, did Jesus qualify as a sin sacrifice.
Was he sacrificed in that temple.
Did Jesus ever give the job of sacrificing in his temple to the Romans?

Did God ever ask for a human sacrifice. That was my question.

I am waiting.

like you defined your human sacrifice is when others lay a human upon an altar, kill them offering their death to their idols.

God never asked for such nor would he ever accept such.

You ask did Jesus qualify as a sin sacrifice? Do you know the requirements for a sin offering? Or what it was meant for? Do you think under the old testament murders could give an offering and they would be forgiven? If adulterers were caught, they were stoned.

Now do you want what sin atonement was for, as mentioned in Exodus 29. It was for purifying things and not the people, even the priests who partook of it, were to do it regularly.

Now I asked you what sin does a young bull commit? Or what is the offense of a Lamb?

Yet there's a blood more pure and precious than that, not offered by others but offered by the one who has it. Not offered to God for the blood of animals were never given to God so also the blood of Jesus was for our purification.

For no offering was given for such in the Torah, to purify a man from his sons. Or can you tell me of one?

You asked if Jesus was sacrificed in the temple? Was the passover lamb sacrificed in the temple? Are you not ignorant of what is actually written.

Jesus gave his own life, and said so himself. For what reason did they kill him, because he is the king of the Jews?

The Romans killed him because it is how it was prophecied and written
His bones were not broken because it was have it was prophecied and written.

If only you would wait on God and have him open your understanding to the scriptures, then maybe you won't ask another silly question that you can easily read from the Tanakh you claim to believe in

sonmvayina:
Ok. Amen sorry. The Jews were using animals as sacrifices....
Now show me where God ordered a human sacrifice for sin of the whole world

I am waiting.

based on your definition and understanding of what you have been asking, from which you wrote

"Like the one yahoo plus people do

Kill a human being for riches.... usually sacrificed to moloch. He was the only one that was accepting human sacrifice....
Not God...who created life itself."


God NEVER ordered such and Jesus never did such.

Nobody used Jesus for sacrifice, he offered himself to God and God accepted him as recorded in the scriptures.

sonmvayina:
Like the one yahoo plus people do

Kill a human being for riches.... usually sacrificed to moloch. He was the only one that was accepting human sacrifice....
Not God...who created life itself.

so was Jesus killed in that way?

sonmvayina:
You are deviating from your beliefs..

Was Jesus a human sacrifice for sin ? You said yes...
I asked you to tell me when God planned it from the Tanakh. I am waiting.
It should be simple to you...

what is my belief that I have told you, and how did that post deviate from it?

At least show you are capable of saying the truth before you speak from the Tanakh.

I should tell you when God planned it? Are you okay? I am observing God from the beginning of his existence or what? If you are asking where God spoke about Jesus dying

Here it is from the Tanakh

How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news(gospel), who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

See, my servant will prosper; he will be highly exalted. Many were amazed when they saw him--beaten and bloodied, so disfigured one would scarcely know he was a person. And he will again startle many nations. Kings will stand speechless in his presence. For they will see what they had not previously been told about; they will understand what they had not heard about. (Isa.52.7,13 - 15)



Isa.53

Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (NIV)

My servant grew up in the YHVH's presence like a tender green shoot, sprouting from a root in dry and sterile ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. He was despised and rejected--a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care.

Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed!

All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the guilt and sins of us all. He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth.

From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins--that he was suffering their punishment?

He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man's grave.

But it was the LORD's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD's plan will prosper in his hands.

When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. I will give him the honors of one who is mighty and great, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners.

sonmvayina:
Isaiah 53 is about Israel...

Show me where God planned that he would be needing a human/God sacrifice in other to forgive sins..

I am waiting.

which Israel is Isaiah 53 about? If you can please sanely explain how it is about Israel..

sonmvayina:
I want you to tell me that you are advising God to accept a human being as a sacrifice...
I want to hear it from you..

you want me to tell you? Are you okay? No offense but is everything okay with you? 😟

sonmvayina:
Give me one place from the Tanakh were God accepted human sacrifice.
I will wait..

God does not accept dead things, that's why those offered to God were dedicated to the temple/tabernacle, by being Nazarenes or something else like the daughter of that Judge that gave his daughter to God.

Even Abraham offered Isaac to God obeying God but he didn't kill Isaac. That's why Paul writes, offer your bodies as living sacrifice to God which is acceptable to God.

When you offer your heart to God, or cut your heart, circumcising it, it doesn't mean you put a knife inside your chest before God accepts you.

To offer yourself is to obey till death.

sonmvayina:
Show me where God planned it in the Tanakh.

have you never read Psalms nor Isaiah 53.

I told you you do not know the Tanakh

sonmvayina:
Is it the lamb that takes away the sin of the people or God?
Show me where God ordered a human sacrifice from the Tanakh.

I am still waiting.

you have not yet answered me, define what a human sacrifice is?

sonmvayina:
Ok...when did God order a human sacrifice?

you should first apologize for lying and suggesting that there were no animal sacrifices needed

sonmvayina:
It is God's requirement..

Are you insisting it is not enough?

God's requirement from that 2 Chronicles 7

Then one night the LORD appeared to Solomon and said, "I have heard your prayer and have chosen this Temple as the place for making sacrifices. At times I might shut up the heavens so that no rain falls, or I might command locusts to devour your crops, or I might send plagues among you. Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and heal their land. I will listen to every prayer made in this place, for I have chosen this Temple and set it apart to be my home forever. My eyes and my heart will always be here.



Look you don't need to lie against God, you can read it here that God mentioned the sacrifices before their prayers.

sonmvayina:
God's solution was confess and forsake your evil ways...I will hear from heaven and forgive and restore. Animal sacrifice was a traditional practice not a requirement from God.
A contrite hearth you will not spurn Psalm 51.

"I desire obedience and not sacrifice " says the Lord.

That is the position of God. Not animal or human sacrifice...

you are not obviously ignorant of your own Tanakh, you read they could not enter the temple to minister without shedding and you wrote this as your response.

I asked you is the animal not innocent? And here you lie against the very Tanakh and the Torah given by Moses which obligated the children of Israel to give such sacrifices as regards their uncleanliness.

How can you even know God's position when you don't even know God's word

sonmvayina:
So you are advising God to accept a human sacrifice?

it that what you understood from what I wrote? no wonder you have a poor understanding of the Tanakh.

sonmvayina:
You are mixing Judaism and Christianity..that's where your problem is.

God in the Tanakh echoed it very loud that he hates human sacrifice.
Jesus death has got nothing to do with God.

There is no curse of sin. Death is for everyone.
Man was never meant to stay here forever.

what exactly is human sacrifice?
Was Jesus sacrificed as a human sacrifice to God?
What do you mean Jesus death has nothing to do with God? Are you saying it was not God's will for him to die or that God did not kill him, or that God wasn't aware that he was going to die?
You keep shouting Tanakh when you don't even understand it.

What is the cause of death? What does the Tanakh reveal about why men die?

Are you saying that God didn't reveal the death of Jesus in the Tanakh?