₦airaland Forum

@ MostHigh,

We have discussed this issue in the past. I really do not want people to often MIS-understand me. When I say law, I mean the TORAH, law of Moses. Off course, we are not under the guidance of the law of Moses but under the law of Christ & of the Spirit of Life that now works by the power of the Holy Spirit. If it is the law of Moses, absolutely, none of us can keep all the law of Moses as it wasn't written to us in the first place. The law of Christ is LOVE and that LOVE fulfills the whole law of Moses. Simple put, maintain LOVE and you don't have to bother about the 613 laws of Moses because we are dead to the law (of Moses) but alive to the law of Christ.

obadiah777: *SMDH* GOSHEN DONE LED MORE PEOPLE INTO HELL FIRE THAN BEELZEBUB WITH THIS HIS DOCTRINE

Thou man of the law of Moses, never mind, you will be alright. You & I don't always agree on the law of Moses, okay. You will grasp the flow if you follow.

Chei, see Ihedinobi o. Unknown to you, perhaps, the body of Christ represent MANY things from scriptures. I will show you later on.

New International Version (©2011)
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

New Living Translation (©2007)
That is why, when Christ came into the world, he said to God, "You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings. But you have given me a body to offer.

Hebrews 10:5

Okay, I will help you out the more. When Christ 'represented' (in) his BODY by the 'bread' for communion, what do you think was going on then? Are you 'literally' eating the BODY of Christ or it is spiritually symbolic? When you answer this question, I will then follow up.

Ihedinobi: Let us see exactly what Galatians 4:24 says, shall we?

...an allegory: for these are two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage...

So, there is a covenant that comes from Sinai which produces, engenders, generates or births not the law but bondage.

So if the mother is the covenant of Sinai, the son is the bondage it produces not the law.

Thus, what is to be cast out is the covenant of Sinai with the bondage it produces.

Do you suppose that there is a difference between the covenant and the bondage and the law?

Lemme see if you can understand it well from this translation I love so much.

21 Some of you still want to be under the law. Tell me, do you know what the law says? 22 [ For] The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons. The mother of one son was a slave woman, and the mother of the other son was a free woman. 23 Abraham’s son from the slave woman was born ·in the normal human way [or through human effort/plan;  according to the flesh;  Ishmael; Gen. 16]. But the son from the free woman was born ·because of the promise God made to Abraham [ through the promise;  Isaac; Gen. 17; 21].

24 This story ·teaches something else [or may be read allegorically/figuratively/as an illustration]: The two women are ·like the two agreements between God and his people [ two covenants]. One is ·the law that God made on Mount Sinai [ from Mount Sinai;  the mountain in Arabia where God delivered his law to Israel through Moses; Ex. 19—31], ·and the people who are under this agreement are like slaves [bearing children for slavery]. ·The mother named Hagar is like that agreement [ This is Hagar].

25 She is like Mount Sinai in Arabia and ·is a picture of [corresponds to; represents] the ·earthly city of [ present] Jerusalem. This city and ·its people [ her children] are ·slaves to the law [ slaves].

26 But the ·heavenly Jerusalem, which is above [ Jerusalem above], is like the free woman. She is our mother.

27 [ For] It is written in the Scriptures:

“·Be happy [Rejoice], barren one [ Jerusalem].
You are like a woman who never gave birth to children.
·Start singing [Burst out] and ·shout for joy [cry out].
You never ·felt the pain of giving birth [or went into labor],
but you who are ·childless [ desolate; or deserted] will have more children
than the woman who has a husband [Is. 54:1].”

28 My brothers and sisters, you are ·God’s children because of his promise [ children of the promise], as Isaac was then.

29 [ For just as] The son who was born ·in the normal way [or through human effort/plan;  according to the flesh] treated the other son badly. It is the same today [ a reference to Jewish persecution of Christians].

30 But what does the Scripture say? “Throw out the slave woman and her son. The son of the slave woman will not share in the inheritance with the son of the free woman [Gen. 21:10].”

31 So, my brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Ihedinobi: Er, I'm not entirely sure that I get what you are saying. Which is the Jesus of the law that died and the Christ of the New Testament that resurrected? If you could, just quote the Scripture and mark them somehow to stand out separately, perhaps by inserting the phrase "Jesus of the law" and the phrase "Christ of the new testament" where applicable.

Okay, always at your service,

4So, my brothers and sisters, you also DIED to the law THROUGH the BODY of Christ (This is the Christ that represented the law in his BODY or FLESH), that you might belong to ANOTHER (Another One, not the One that died in his BODY being representative of the law), TO HIM WHO WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD (The One who is not after the body of the One that died to the law in his body, this is, the resurrected One and not the same as the one represented in the law because that One is already DEAD), in order that we might bear fruit for God. Romans 7

Parallel is,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. John 12:24

I wan begin dey write my own translation o

Ihedinobi: 2. Actually, under the Law of Moses, a Gentile could be saved if he bound himself to Israel's God by circumcision.

3. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. -2 Timothy 3:16-17.

2. But were they saved?....if they 'could' be saved? That was the very thing that the Apostles had do say to the Jews who held Judaism as the religion of the law - to do works required by the law to be saved. That is not of the New Covenant my brother. Grace through faith is the key.

3. Yes, all scriptures is given is not a dispute. But not all scriptures applies to Christians. The law of Moses doesn't apply to Christians else, we can start quoting some terrible laws now and see if it applies to you, Ihedinobi.

@ Ihedinobi,

The whole works of Paul, the Apostle to the Galatians was NEVER to return to the law of Moses and its requirements. The two woman = Hagar and Sarah = two covenant and their sons, one is the law, son of the bondwoman (Ishmael) which is also Sinai, where the law was given to the typology (the bondwoman) and the other, Zion which functions of Spirit of Grace and represented in Isaac, son of the promise and heir of the Spirit, born by the power of the Spirit (of God and of Grace)....not of Abraham's works, in which Abraham works produced Ishmael but the promise of God produced Isaac.

When it says get rid of or cast out the slave\bond woman and her son. That is, the covenant and the law. The bondwoman = covenant and the son is the law that was produced on Sinai (Galatians 4:24). It didn't say 'modify' or 'balance' the two covenants, it says, CAST OUT because they cannot share same inheritance vs 30, Galatians 4.

As per...."Romans 7 talks about the Jesus of the law and Christ of the New Testament, the resurrected one"

1Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4So, my brothers and sisters, you also DIED to the law THROUGH the BODY of Christ, that you might belong to ANOTHER, TO HIM WHO WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 7

You see, when someone is dead, he\she is completely insensitive to the natural life. It means metaphorically, to be destroyed, to render extinct and by death, to be liberated from the bond of anything, literally to be made dead in relation to (something). So is he\we that are dead to THE LAW THROUGH the BODY of Christ. When Christ, by his BODY DIED on the Cross, we also DIED to the law. We become insensitive and completely unaware of the law. Now, the BODY of Christ died on the Cross to fulfill that law, it is ANOTHER, the One who was raised from the dead that we are NOW MARRIED TO, otherwise, the Church when we still having affairs with the law as the Bride of Christ (the One who was raised from the dead), is still called adulterer or adulteress...a spiritual one though.

shdemidemi: Whether you agree or not does not change anything. Under the law of Moses the Gentiles can never be saved.
You just don't open any part of the scripture for doctrine or for practice.

And it is by the blood of the New Covenant that the blessings was extended to the Gentiles. Jesus, in his body bore the curse on the cross and initiated a New Covenant that brought in the Gentiles and we should have a new life to the ONE who is raise from the dead, not to the one that died to the law of Moses. The revelation of the dimension of Christ is important - The Christ that represented the law was of the BODY while the Christ that was raise from the dead is of the Spirit. The Spirit and the law are always at war.

@ Ihedinobi,

The mistake you're still making is that, you are taking EVERYTHING in the Bible for New Testament Christians. That's wrong! The law is for the Jews and serves as their constitution. It doesn't apply to Christians today. Again, I maintain, there's no where in the New Testament where it says a Christian is cursed for not doing the things required of the law of Moses and neither are Christians blessings by following the requirements of Deuteronomy 28. God doesn't operate the New Testament that way - do this and I will do that for you, NO! It is DONE & FINISHED because of what Christ did, once and for all.

shdemidemi: I think I should add this little exposition about how God deals with man through dispensations. The only rule to this is not to inject any dispensation into another.
1) innocence with Adam and Eve
2) conscience. Cane and Abel
3)Human govt. Noah
4)promise. Abraham
5)law. Moses/Jesus falls under this dispensation too
6)grace. Paul only (Christians)
7)tribulation. Hebrew 1st and 2nd Peter Jude John revelation

shdemidemi: Anything we read from the Bible falls under 1 of these dispensations and it should not be carried or used in another dispensation practically.

^ I completely agree and especially with #4 & 5 as it relates to this thread but I agree with all completely. One of the problem with we have is, Grace will not find it root and function properly in Christianity until we stop mixing with the law dispensation. Romans 7 talks about the Jesus of the law and Christ of the New Testament, the resurrected one. Until we cast out the law, then Grace will be established.

^ Good ^ I will also add more, expanding on what you said. Thanks for teaching us.

Ihedinobi: Thus, evidence that such faith is lacking in some area of our lives is when we are found walking in the disobedience that Deuteronomy 28 speaks of. And in such an area, the curses of Deuteronomy 28 are brought to bear upon us.

The highlight is not true. The whole legal system of Moses called Sinai is null and void. No Christian is blessed through Christ and cursed as the same time. Why? Christ bore the curse(s) of THE LAW and hereby leaving us with blessings. You can't be under a shower and at the same time be dry, you've got to be wet! Blessings and cursing don't operated together or at the same time in the New Testament by the blood covenant of Christ.

Also, when I say believers, I meant, the New Testament Christians or believers. We are under a better covenant - Our blessings are not subject to or within the parameters of Deuteronomy 28 - we are blessed beyond measures in the spiritual realms and only faith is HIM who bears the blessing does release the blessing upon us. The one (Christ) who took away the CURSES OF THE LAW (Deuteronomy 28 from verse 15 down) and being MADE a curse for us, also the blessings was wrapped up in him so that when we receive him, we receive the completeness of the blessed one.

Again, NO CHRISTIAN IS CURSED FOR NOT DOING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW OF MOSES! That's a religion of the law of Moses or what some translations called Moses' teachings - the one who does such requirement must live by them. My brother, you're yet to CAST OUT the bondwoman and her son, it's persecuting the son of the Spirit. There's nowhere in the New Testament that says a Christians is cursed for not doing the requirements of the law, absolutely nowhere. You're still trying to 'balance' the law with Grace of Christ. They don't share the same 'inheritance' bro.

Faith in the finished work of the Cross of Christ is the Christian key to blessings in all aspects of life. Deuteronomy 28 listed blessings and curses for by being obedience or disobedience and says do this (obey) or do that (disobey) and God does this (bless) or that (curse) - that's the religion of the law of Moses. In the New Testament, God doesn't bless us because of what we do but because of our faith in Christ and His finished works. Our obedience is looking unto Jesus, and faith in his completed works. We are not blessed because we do this or that in the New Testament, we are blessed because Christ already took away the curse of the law and we are ONLY left with blessings.

Those who threaten Christians with curse or say Christians are still carrying curse after they have come to be a new creation do err in that they do not understand the finished works of the cross of Christ. On the cross, he bore our infirmities, took our sins, bore our curse and became a curse for us that THE BLESSINGS that was promised to Abraham might ALSO come on the Gentiles, that is NOT only for the Jews but for us, the non Jews also and apparently to the whole world who will believe in Christ. We are saved by Grace and continue to live by Grace through faith not returning to the requirements of the law of Moses.

First,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

1. What is the 'Gospel of Christ' referred to in this context?

2. The man saying this, Paul the Apostle is already saved and he believes, what 'salvation' is he still talking about?

---

Second,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. 2 Corinthians 6:10

1. How can one be in sorrow and yet ALWAYS rejoicing?

2. How can one be poor and yet making many rich? Can't one just use that means of enriching others to make himself rich rather than remain poor? Also, you can't make others\many rich if you yourself are not rich. What's going on in this context?

3. How can one have nothing and yet possessing all things?

Over to you, brothers & sisters.

MostHigh: I thing it would be better renders as follows:

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and PASTORS, you hypocrites! You are collecting tithes. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Let's do some word exchange for those who hold onto Matthew 23:23 and see how it reads,

First is Matthew 23:23 in its proper context,

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Now, those who say Christ was talking to the 'New Testament Church or Believers or Apostles', let's insert the aforementioned into the text and see how it reads,

Woe unto you, New Testament Church or Believers and You 12 Apostles, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

That reads good right?

@ Pastor Olu T,

Pastor Olu T: It is mostly said in the churches today that it is not compulsory that one speak in tongues when the Spirit comes upon a man, it is important to note that when the Holy Spirit comes upon a man it always comes with the manifestation of tongues. It is worthy of note that they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues when the Spirit first came at pentecost, Mary spoke in tongues as well as James and Peter, if all the member in the group that represent the early church spoke in tongues then why do we not see it as compulsory for us all to speak in tongues when we receive the Holy Spirit?

I disagree a little on the context of 'all' as per Acts 2:4. The 'all filled' in that context is limited to 'all those' present in the upper room at the time of the fulfillment. If we teach that all Christians are to or should speak in tongues, then that will contradict this text below,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not! 1 Corinthians 12:30

Again, we MUST not confuse Pentecost with 'spiritual gifts'. That's the problem we have that people don't believe in tongues - Pentecost is a fulfillment of prophesy; it is a SIGN tongue and it is different from GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT as listed in 1 Corinthians. What was spoken on Pentecost was a WELL UNDERSTOOD language of other men or every nation present there\then and those men or nations heard their LITERAL languages spoken by the Apostles WITHOUT learning the languages but 1 Corinthians 14:2 declares, NO MAN UNDERSTANDS THE LANGUAGE SPOKEN BECAUSE ONE IS SPEAKING TO GOD. There's too much confusion going in the church today and we must look critically into every subject very well; God is not the author of our confusion.

^ I did a teaching in recently that the 10 commandments were not given special preference than other laws of Moses. Everything given on Sinai is abolished including the 10 commandments. Some say we still suppose to keep the ten but NO, Jesus and the Apostles NEVER refer to them as 10 anymore that they are all fulfilled in ONE NEW COMMANDMENT, LOVE!

It's calling someone a 'servant' of God when Jesus said, "I no longer call you servant but brethren". The law of LOVE is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Also, there is nowhere in scriptures which I have challenged folks here to show us\me where the scriptures specified the 10 as moral and some as ceremonial etc. Absolutely, nowhere in scriptures. So, the ten is PART OF THE FIRST COVENANT that was abolished and done away with.

Now, does that mean, one should kill? Steal? bear false witness etc.....according to the ten commandment? Absolutely NO! These are fulfilled in the NEW COMMANDMENT, LOVE - When you LOVE God & your neighbour or fellow human beings, you will not kill, bear false witness, commit adultery etc etc. That is how the law of LOVE functions.

hisblud: to the highlighted, what is your observation of the above, should we mix them grace and law as per balance, would appreciate your view on that...

There's nothing like 'balancing' Grace with the law (of Moses). It was never taught by the Apostles that way, the law (of Moses) was said to be CAST out so Grace can find its root. Many are busy casting out demons out of Christians but failing to understand that the real thing to be cast out is the law being mixed with Grace.

Put it is a simple way, Grace and law DON'T MIX TOGETHER NEITHER DO THEY SHARE NOR BALANCE ONE ANOTHER. They're like water and oil that can never mix. You can't be saved by Grace through faith and be living by the ordinances of the law or some of it. Galatians 4:1-end will liberate you or the whole book of Galatians is so power. Study, not read; study it slowly and God will give you insight.

Okay, I'm here now to troubleshoot @ shdemidemi & truthislight,

You guys have been talking against (praying) tongues as a spiritual gifts but here is a questions for you yet, since none of you answered my former question, in 1 Corinthians 14:2, what tongues is it that Paul, the Apostle talked about that NO ONE CAN UNDERSTAND BUT TALKING TO GOD ONLY?

Please, answer the question. Thank you!

@ OP,

It will be very hard to find a 'church' in Nigeria that doesn't do this tithe thing. All I will advice is 'ignore' this tithe thing as a criteria. Just like Alexleo said, you 'might' miss out in other good teachings of a church even if they do err in tithe thing. Get a sound bible teaching 'church' and enjoy the sound teachings plus the Grace of Christ.

Let not your heart be "troubled", you believe in God, believe also in u....

^ You're a good and God man. I perfectly understand you from your initial post. It's easy for you to 'assume' but since he (the OP) did not 'explicitly' use that word 'bad' to brand him. I believe that's what's going on though not to support him. I perfectly understand you though.

^ I'm not referring to the Apostolic Church such as we have today, I mean the early Apostolic Church. And Read me very well, I said, the contributions they collect was for the poor saints MAINLY.

New International Version (©2011)
Now about the collection for the Lord's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2

Collection in the early (Apostolic) church was for the PEOPLE, mainly, the poor saints. That's the basis of my statement. I also said, today's church does not necessarily have to spend all collection on the poor saints BUT MOST of the collections should be used for the poor saints in the midst of each church.

zoelife: Maybe some preachers do threaten but mine doesn't. Rather, we are challenged to study for ourselves and do God's will with accurate understanding of the subject at hand. Therein lies the major problem of the church- Studying to know and understand. Most people want the easy way out. Gimme the quick buttons to press and get so and so result. It works but if we really want a true relationship with the Father, we must get to know the Word for ourselves. THe Lord is building His church. Amen!

Okay sweerie, lemme give it to you that your pastor had never threaten with curse or whatever, please be honest with this next question. When your pastor teach on tithe, does it quote Malachi 3:8-10 and Matthew 23:23 OR NOT? Be honest please, you know you are my Christian sister When you answer, I will give you the other side of the coin, buried in my former question.

^ Okay, I will bro. One love! I love to listen to people and understand them before I confront. Allow me do some research the more. Maybe till next time that we talk about this topic then. Thank you.

truthislight: Oga Gosh.

Ah! You dey here and you dey look my question anya anya(for eye for eye).

Abeg, use that spirit that causes speaking in tongues to explain the scriptures na?

Oga me, i dey wait o!

I salute o, bros. I have told you folks, there are two categories of tongues. If any tongues SHALL cease or if at all HAD CEASED, that will be the SIGN tongues. Praying tongues DO NOT CEASE. I have taught on the abuse of tongues in churches in one of my teachings in the past, check my profile bro. Paul, the Apostle NEVER told people to be speaking in tongues in church gathering or worship places BUT in private since no one understands the PRAYING tongues; when they speak or pray to GOD, it must be done in PRIVATE because it is not what anyone understands.

27No more than two or three should speak in tongues. They must speak one at a time, and someone must interpret what they say. 28But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately....39So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don’t forbid speaking in tongues. 40But be sure that everything is done properly and in order. << 1 Corinthians 14 >> New Living Translation

zoelife: @Goshen: Splendid. No, the tithe for the new creation is not a law, but one of the keys of the kingdom(as pertains God and money) just as prayer is a key, the avenue for communication between God and man.

The Christian who knows his God shouldn't have a problem with tithing, just as he shouldn't be obligated to pray!

Hahahahahahahaha. You rushed to answer me but you don't understand what I buried inside that question. Okay, lemme then make it plain, why then do preachers hide behind Abraham's tithe and make it A LAW (MONTHLY) BY QUOTING MALACHI AND MATTHEW 23:23 IN WHICH BOTH MALACHI & MATTHEW ARE TITHING ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF MOSES AND THEY, PREACHERS THREATEN CHRISTIANS WITH A CURSE FOR NOT TITHING?

^ Alex, He, the OP didn't brand Gbile as BAD because he is not against tithe or he is not against something he is against o. Don't read into his words please. I 'guess' he is only asking a question based on his new findings. I never read his (OP's) line where he branded Gbile as BAD 'because of tithe'.

@ truthislight,

Maybe you are the one that will answer the time frame of when that SHALL cease.