₦airaland Forum

Daum:
Greybog and AreaFada are two Edo's who I like because they are always here defending our history as a people. I know one thing for sure, we will never know everything, even till date people still doubt if Jesus even really walked this earth.

As for Oronmiyan being the first Oba, I think he was crowned king even though he never sat on the throne, it is on this premise that the Present Oba made such declaration.

We can't say Oronmiyan never existed in Benin history, one thing the Edo's do since they had no writing skills then, they preserved history through art and immortalizing person or things.

The first moats dug around the city I think should be around siluko road. The siluko axis down to Udo have been a very old part of Benin.
That's the axis where you have the Oliha palace, that the axis you have the Usama palace. The whole Uzama quarters is in that axis. Along that axis you have a place called Oronmiyan quarters. Down that axis you have Useh where Eweka played that game and got his name. Along that axis you have Egor village and down that axis you have Udo. So all these places are there for us to see.


Am learning from you both sha.

Oba GHA to kpere

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained


Follow this thread from beginning to the end so many information on this thread.....
After reading the thread you beging doing your personal research

I use to tell the stories of oromiyan in benin not anymore when i know the truth....

If your are patient enough to go through thie thread you will get why am attacking areafada

On benin - ife relationship


https://www.jstor.org/journal/historyafrica

TAO11:
(1) Yes, his old works as they continue to be regarded as classics, even by world-renowned scholars such as Dr. R. E. Bradbury.

(2) Search the following: "Contemporary Scholarship on the Ife-Benin relationship", you should see their list. Don't make me think you're too daft to do this simple search.

(3) Like I have come to same conclusion on this thread. You can also start reading contemporary academic works on the subject to find out.

(4) Why do you keep signing your nickname (i.e. "Mumuboy") as a complementary close for your dvmbest comments ??

Image 1
Shows my search contemporary relationship on the Ife-Benin relationship

Image 2

On the article. traditional documents and the ife benin relationship written by John K. Thornton
Shows the screen shot of the concluding article
Were he mentioned benin had manipulated its original history to favour the yorubas

3,4 pages that disagree on benin-ife relationships


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/3171867&ved=2ahUKEwion4Tij-voAhUmxIUKHRiXAC4QFjAAegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw3sZ6toyaxtOO2-EHiXQsGB&cshid=1586978344633



AGAIN yufi wasnt recognized as ife, i fear una oo all in a bid to twist history to make sure benin history come under ife you guys will go to such length to take other people's glory


Samuk

Davidnazee

TerraCotta:
Thanks for your insightful contribution. I see that you joined this site in 2016 so you probably have not read the other lengthy discussions Physics/Silver Sniper and I have had on these topics in past years. Please go and read those and the works mentioned in them if you’re interested in the topic; otherwise, I’ll be ignoring your future posts as it’s clear you and I have very little in common when it comes to this material.

Share me the link


So people had even doubted the benin and ife connection before now Interesting

Please share the link

TerraCotta:
[s]
My views on this issue haven’t changed dramatically over the years and I’ve expressed them in the many fruitful discussions we’ve had about the issue in past years. I’m at home and close enough to my library to be able to reference both older and more recent scholarship that can help illuminate this issue of the identity of the Ogane/Oghene, and the idea of a common origin of the current Ife-Benin monarchic traditions and their connection to the area of central Nigeria where the Niger and Benue rivers meet.

While Ryder should get some credit for his hypothesis on this issue, the idea that the Niger-Benue confluence area is key to southern Nigerian cultural history has been widely-accepted since at least the 1970s, more due to the work of historical linguistics isolating that area as the source of Kwa-languages, i.e. “The implications of modern linguistic research both fit in with and supplement those of archaeological research. They suggest that Yoruba, Edo, Igala, Idoma, Igbo, Nupe, Emirates and Gabri form a cluster of languages within the larger Kwa group, centered roughly on the area of the Niger-Benue Confluence,” (Ade Obayemi in “The Yoruba and Edo-speaking peoples and their neighbors before 1600”, History of West Africa, Vol. 1, Longman Publishers, 1971).

What is important to note for this discussion is that neither Pacheco Pierrera or Joao de Avieros (de Barros in some transcriptions) introduced the concept of the Ogane/Houganee as a pre-eminent governmental or religious power in our area. That idea dates back to the 1375 map of global kingdoms called the Atlas, made by Europe’s leading cartographer of that period, Abraham Cresques: https://www.earthlymission.com/catalan-atlas-medieval-world-map/.

That 1375 map identifies a mysterious figure called the Rey de Organa (i.e. “King of Organa”), which appears to reference the Ogane/Oghene title under discussion. The Rey de Organa is portrayed as leading the most important trade point/monarchic area east of Mansa Musa’s Mali, and this is notable because Mansa Musa’s unimaginable wealth from gold mining had recently been unveiled to the world in spectacular fashion following his pilgrimage to Mecca, where his entourage caused a global devolution in gold prices with the amount of gold they spent during the trip.

It’s also good to note that the Catalan Atlas was so accurate because its maker (Cresques) was a member of a Jewish trading family in Spain with extensive contacts throughout northern (and presumably western) Africa, and as these families traded in the exotic luxury goods produced in these areas (likely including glass jewelry but almost certainly ivory and rare birds and feathers, which is an important point as we shall see later), they had strong motivations to understand the politics and polities in this region.

At any rate, the Catalan Atlas became a central inspiration for the Portuguese court’s sponsorship of exploration into West Africa and establishes this Organa (Ogane/Oghene) as a leading political/religious figure about 100 years before Joao de Aveiros refers to the leader with a similar title who is responsible for consecrating the leader of Benin’s royal symbols etc. This is detailed further on page 6 of Suzanne Preston Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power and Identity c. 1300,” Cambridge University Press, 2015.

The similarity between the titles of Organa/Ogane/Oghene and Ooni are plain enough to readers, but there are other historical, linguistic and glottochronological reasons that satisfactorily suggest a connection. First is the unpublished Ikedu oral history tradition in Ife collected by Professor IA Akinjogbin and cited by Professor Blier in her book. This citation (similar to the oriki poetic traditions that most Yoruba families will be familiar with) provides a list of rulers and details of reigns before the arrival of “Oduduwa” and establishment of his dynasty. The title of the ancient Ife line of kings is rendered as “Ogane” in this oral history, according to Akinjogbin and Blier. Unfortunately, Akinjogbin’s records on the poems (which Blier has read and cites in her book) has not been published and remain in his field notes.

Blier does provide the name of the first Ogane of Ife as “Awire”, and dates his reign to around 700 CE (or AD if you prefer) based on an average reign length of 13 years (the accepted method used by African oral historians). She notes that this makes Ife one of the three earliest-founded surviving dynasties in the world (Japan and Rajasthan in northern India date from roughly that period of 660-750 CE as well).

The other linguistic evidence is a little bit of supposition by me but makes perfect sense for those familiar with linguistic shifts etc. Yoruba is a language that is particularly rich in ellision and contraction. You will see “Oduduwa” frequently rendered as “Odua” or “Oodua”, just as certain proper names are the result of ellision (“Adekunle” being “Ade kun ninu ile” etc. I think it’s a good bet that the modern form “Ooni” is a contraction of an older term similar to “Ogane/Oghene/Organa”, and this is indicated by the “double-O” in the written form, which almost always signifies that the term is the contracted form of a word featuring two vowels (as in “Oduduwa” becoming “Oodua”).

Even more interesting is the central linchpin that I think even Professor Blier may have missed, although I’d have to look through the book again to be sure. The terms “Ogane/Organa/Oghene” are themselves close European renderings of a very familiar Yoruba term denoting the central political organization in the Yoruba-speaking area, one that still exists to this day and means quite clearly an aged and respected political and religious leader. What is the term?

“Ogboni”.

In precolonial times, this was the regional version of a senator, someone who sat as part of a judicial and governmental association (with strong ties to trade and economic development, as Blier notes). A variant of the word is “Ogbeni” in modern Yoruba, which denotes a gentleman or someone of upright social standing. The older variant of the term and its explicit ties to government and religious observance fits the record quite neatly for me, however.

There is also the fascinating issue of Ile-Ife’s direct connection to the Niger-Benue confluence region, which as I’ve mentioned in past posts is the key to the commonwealth of cultural history shared by Nigerian groups connected to the area. I believe I’ve posted this before, but in the very first references we have to Ife’s role as the place of creation, it’s foundation is clearly linked to a “great river” and the idea of crossing that river and establishing new settlements along its banks and tributaries.

Reverend Ajayi Crowther says in his “Vocabulary of the Yoruba Language” (1852 edition, which expands on his earlier 1843 work) that “It is said by the Yorubans that fifteen persons were sent from a certain region, and that a sixteenth, whose name was Okambi (an only child), and who was afterwards made King of Yoruba, volunteered to accompany them ... on opening the gate of this unknown region, they observed a large expanse of water...” The passage is long but available to read in full here (in the “Introductory Remarks”: https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Grammar_of_the_Yoruba_Language/9yBKAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Samuel%20Crowther&pg=PR2&printsec=frontcover&bsq=Samuel%20Crowther

The long and the short of it is that this earliest written description of the founding of Ife describes it as an island of sorts on the shore of a great river. TJ Bowen records a similar tradition in the 1850s and concludes that Ife was likely founded further north and that the current town may not be the original location. What is relatively certain is that the confluence region of Jebba Island, where Ife-style naturalistic bronze and brass works like the Tada figure have been found, was as recently as the 19th-century a Yoruba-speaking border region with Nupe people. In fact, the Gbede/Gbedegi sub-group of the Nupe found in that region today are known to be originally Yoruba-speakers who “became” Nupe through contact with the legendary Tsoede (who is dated to post-15th century wars of expansion and therefore later than the 13th-14th century dates we are discussing for the Ogane/Oghene/Organa (and I would add) Ogboni.

One last point of interest here that we are again indebted to Professor Blier for—she discusses the importance of the pure-copper and Ife-style “Tada figure” found in this area, the nearly life-size sculpture of a seated man that is considered one of the most technically-accomplished artworks of its kind in the world: https://www.chron.com/entertainment/article/MFAH-exhibit-shows-a-side-of-African-art-few-know-1706619.php

This figure is importantly linked to Ife by art historians because of the similarities in proportion, naturalism and material usage (pure copper being also used for the naturalistic Obalufon mask in Ife) but Blier points out that the missing limbs, which have broken off over the years, suggest another important clue—they appear to have been arranged with the left thumb encircled by the right fist, which was and is a disctinctive ritual greeting gesture of none other than ... the Ogboni association.

Much more than I meant to type but hope it was interesting reading! I had more thoughts to add about Ibn-Battuta’s reference to the kingdom of Yufi and why contemporary scholars like Obayemi and Blier believe it to be another early reference to Ife (or as the locals would insist on it being called in eastern Yoruba dialects, “Ufe”) but I know that TAO has capably discussed that in one of her earlier posts so I’ll leave it there.

Good to be back to add what I can while I have some free time. There is also some interesting material on Kwararafa and the Apa polity (unclear if it was organized as a “kingdom”, “empire” etc) and its connection to geomancy (Ifa/Afa/ominigbon etc) but I’ll save that for some future post as well.

I’ve edited to add a few useful links to some material that’s’ available online, although most of the citations are from books that are only available In print unfortunately. I can add more information for those interested[/s].

They were all out off point


You falsely tried to connect yoruba and nupe which you failed

Tried to connect ogane to ife which you failed too

You failed in all round...

Try to use this your energy to connect it to the benins instead of a much more wider yorubas that you know little on.......

geosegun:
Well, I appreciate your summary. The Yorubas generally see Benin as ther younger brother by blood. Hence our grandparents will always say, 'okan naa ni wa' meaning we are the same. Hence, some of the reasons the generality of Yorubas will never fig8or engage the Benins in a duel.
Eko in Lagos state is an example. How can the Father fights the son? Hence the continuous growth of Benin Kingdom and was never violently controlled in some of the western axis.
We know they, especially the Benin rulers house, are our long but not lost brothers. The Oyo empire, despite all her powers never engaged Benin as we see it as a taboo.

But you know what, pride has not allow those of recent generations to accept this. They know it's the truth but pride and inferiority complex will not allow them to accept realities and move on. One of the reasons they destroyed the only legacy the had left in 1898. Stubbornness and arrogance are worst than some diseases.

FACT is Benin Kingdom is an extension of Yoruba civilisation and of course they are our brothers. This has been proven over and over again.

@MelesZenawi; thank you for an independent summary.

I rest my case.

I keep telling you stop saying what you can prove

We can prove we bleeped your women and killed your men and install our men to rule you

The ife story is cook and bull story told for political gain

What is it with the yorubas always attaching themselves to greatness or power, see the present yorubas today in nigeria they would lick the ass of the northerners to stick to power and
They will twist thier history and attach edo to it

They cant tell thier stories without including benin


Benin history they sweet sha, unlike the yoruba history that makes one sleep whie reading

Who said benin never engaged oyo are you sleeping in this thread? when davidnazee and samuk posted a documented history by the Portuguese, of benin engaging oyo against ekiti invasion

TAO11:
No archaeologist (not even one) ever said Benin is older than Ife.

samuk once told this lie and he apologised for it.

Paul Ozanne's report of an archaeological survey of Ife establishes that many settlements have been established in Ife by at least the 4th century BC.

There is nothing even remotely close to that from Benin.

Thank you for lying thereby giving me the opportunity to whip you and make the truth popular.

Moreover the page I attached --- which states that the use of the word "Oba" by the Binis is from the Yorubas --- is not from Egharevba's work (I think you see Egharevba in your dreams ).

It's from D. M. Bondarenko who is perhaps the leading authority on Benin Kingdom today.

Another liar just got killed in public.

Samuk

TAO11:
Lol. Those are suggestions of old. The debate have been settled in present times.

Lol, and you keep citing egharevba old works


Am still waiting for the scholars who settled it,
And how did they come to thier conclusions


Mumuboy...

TAO11:
No archaeologist (not even one) ever said Benin is older than Ife.

samuk once told this lie and he apologised for it.

Paul Ozanne's report of an archaeological survey of Ife establishes that many settlements have been established in Ife by at least the 4th century BC.

There is nothing even remotely close to that from Benin.

Thank you for lying thereby giving me the opportunity to whip you and make the truth popular.

Moreover the page I attached --- which states that the use of the word "Oba" by the Binis is from the Yorubas --- is not from Egharevba's work (I think you see Egharevba in your dreams ).

It's from D. M. Bondarenko who is perhaps the leading authority on Benin Kingdom today.

Another liar just got killed in public.

Ok can we get the evidence....

Yea the link youre going to share must ascertain why they believe ife is as old as 4th century if it's just mere claims you know i will push it aside

SilverSniper:
The historian Elizabeth Isichei is one scholar that did suggest (in A history of Nigeria), when discussing the Beni Nupe confederacy, that Ryder drifted away from his 1965 suggestion in his 1969 book:

"If there was a real dynastic link with Nupe this seems doubtful. It seems more probable that statements about a common heritage rest on the accidental verbal similarity between Benin and Beni. It is noteworthy that Ryder, who questioned the Ife connection and argued the case for linkages with a northern kingdom, abandoned the line of argument in his later book, Benin and the Europeans" - Elizabeth Isichei, A history of Nigeria, Volume 2, p. 137

However after re-reading his 1969 book I found that he does not actually do so at all. On page 7 of the 1969 book, Ryder cites his 1965 article, where his position was that the reference to east should perhaps be interpreted as the correct, and literal direction (although allowing for other possibilities about its meaning) that the Benin informants intended to indicate to the Portuguese about where the "Oghene" lived, (Oghene is a word meaning "great lord" in Edo (Bini), but which is used to refer to God in some other Edoid languages in modern times; of course God in Edo (Bini) is Osa, Osanobua, Osanobua Noghodua (God almighty), etc.) without changing his position.

In his 1969 book when discussing the origins of the dynasty of the Obas of Benin, Ryder cites his 1965 article on p. 7 and he does not indicate that his position had changed:

"1. cf. A.F.C. Ryder, 'A reconsideration of the Ife-Benin relationship'. Journal of African History, vol. VI, i (1965). This article examines the evidence for and against the tradition which identifies the Oghene with the Yoruba Oni of Ife, and suggests that many conflicts could be resolved by ascribing a more northerly origin to the dynasty. It is further argued that the origin of the name Benin might be sought in this direction."

I believe Isichei simply misread or did not accurately recall what Ryder's position was in his 1969 book. John Thornton's 1988 article about the Ife-Benin issue, where he cites Ryder's work repeatedly, does not make any note of Ryder changing his position at any point. I think Isichei was simply mistaken about this point.

I found out later on that the idea that the "Oghene" was indeed literally to the east of Benin, as stated twice in two different primary sources - first by Duarte Pacheco Pereira (in Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis) and later by João de Barros (in Décadas da Ásia, First Decade, Book III), was not exclusive to Ryder or Thornton. Decades before either Ryder or Thornton put forward their theories, Charles K. Meek had suggested (in his 1931 book A Sudanese Kingdom: An Ethnographical Study of the Jukun-speaking Peoples of Nigeria) that the "Ogane"/"Hooguanee" mentioned by Pereira and then by de Barros was possibly the ruler of the ancient Kwararafa state, based on the fact that the distance given in the original account (two hundred and fifty leagues east of Benin in de Barros' account) and the direction (east) line up with the location of the ancient Kwararafa state relative to Benin.

Of further interest is that the ancient Kwararafa state was a brass/bronze casting center (exquisite ancient brass or bronze artifacts have been found from there, Leo Frobenius's assistant made some drawings of some of these during one of Frobenius's expeditions to Nigeria in the early 20th century). The Kwararafa "empire" or "confederacy" was supposedly also ruled by a divine "priest king" in the past, according to what both P.A. Talbot and Meek found during their research in the early 20th century, and it had numerous surrounding groups under its authority or influence. Of course there is also supposed to be some sort of significant historical connection between Kwararafa and Igala, or at least Jukun and Igala, according to the thinking of most researchers on precolonial Nigerian history. Also, in his 1965 article, on p. 35, Ryder also proposes a possible Kwararafa connection to Benin as Meek did decades earlier.

Meek also made one surprising comment in his book on the Jukun. He mentions (on p. 50) a certain name and states that "among the Jukun at the present time it is the title of the official who supervises the burial rites of the kings of Wukari". What was surprising - or rather, peculiar - to me is that Meek claims that that name was also found at Benin. I would include the full quote but I do not have the book on me right now.

An interesting article along this line of thought, with regard to the ancient Kwararafa state, before its defeat and destruction by the Bornu empire, is R. Gray - "Christian Traces and a Franciscan Mission in the Central Sudan, 1700–1711" Journal of African History 7 (1967): 383-393. That article might be relevant, if some of the details stated there about crosses are more than just coincidental.

Edit: Upon re-reading Ryder's 1965 article I made a correction above to my original post about his stance on the direction indicated in the sources.

Please we need more of this article


Do you mean the crosses were still found in that area


Again were did the dwarfs in benin the Portuguese recorded go to, did they go into extinction because of ritual use.....


Please we need full article on this, so much info on one single writeup....

After so many years of tagging our history with yorubas the truth is finally coming out
Thanks to TAO11 and ghostwon i owe so much to you guys for bringing our real history into lime light

If only our oba will sponsor the research on those areas to ascertain the real existence of our history and stop dwelling around fairytale

In present times were the north has been stereotype to thier religion, this may hinder further research, most people forget islam just came to the north less than 300yrs ago and even the fulanis who brought it, were once pagan too


Pls help if you can give a full detail writeup on this details

MelesZenawi:
I think at this point, you guys should call it a quit but few points has been established..

1. The history of Bini is not complete without the mention of Yorubas

2. The history of Yorubas aren't complete without the mention of of Binis.

3. Both without further argument has both ancestry more reason the argument draws longer and also points to one thing always

4. Both without bias are just brothers , same people just with different names.

5. Both are just one people , one blood and that's why it is hard to argue the matter.

Finally....Yoruba and binis are just blood brothers with different names due to age long movement.


Let the argument end as these facts has been established.

cc


gregyboy
TAO11
Samuk
geosegun
Hbrid99
davidnazee
AreaFada2
SilverSniper

We were never brothers to this weakling who hide behind false history to attach benin grestness to itself


If you have been following the thread you will know Oduduwa never existed it was a political stage myth


Because britsh conquered nigeria and nigeria inturn practice british culture does that equate nigeria and Britain as brothers


Why would you be supporting nonsense, if you want to mediate then go back to the beginning of thread and readto the last dont just come and say rubbish because you want to make peace


You as an igbo you will be the first to insult benins if we say onistcha people come from benin

TAO11:
Oranmiyan of course, why are you afraid??

See attachment below. Make sure you digest it, because I will ask you questions about it.

No i dont get do you expect to buy this rubbish


Did you forget that archeologists found out oyo is older than benin and benin is older than ife


Egharevba works you and your kinsmen keep citing were one of his old works which he later corrected
But TAO11 keep citing him

But if he sees ryder work he will call old against adam knobler works which was made in 2016


TAO11, if were are to look blindly in assumption
The story says oromiyan didnt get to benin he stayed at ughoton were he got angry and left after impregnating the chiefs daughter,
Lets assume he left some of of his entourage that later crowned him oba What was thier names....

Of you cant tell me then quit circulating that fucking made up history

TAO11:
You're asking about when Benin stopped using Ogiso??

Is that what you're asking??

Am brought the word oba to benin....?


Dont give me d crap of oromiyan or ife

Benin conquests into yorubas areas started 15c

Assuming yorubas owned the world then tell me who brought it

TAO11:
I am actually out to convince sane people and make this truth popular on the internet.

What have you been thinking?

And regarding your question of what the Binis "introduced to" some Yorubas (not to the Yorubas):

First, I will modify your use of the phrase "introduced to" and modify it what some Yorubas "borrow from" --- this is the more academic term than the former you've used which has specific connotations for which there is very weak or no evidence at all.

To answer this question, I will quote directly from Professor S. Adebanji Akintoye's "A History of the Yoruba People" where he writes:

"The Owo, Akoko, and most Ekiti kingdoms borrowed liberally from this Edo tradition [tradition of adorning the king with super-abundance of beads], as well as from Benin royal festivals, chieftaincy titles, styles of palace buildings. For much of their history after the rise of the Benin kingdom, in fact, the Owo, Akoko and southern Ekiti peoples of this area looked as much east-wards towards Benin as they did westwards towards the main centers of Yoruba civilization." p.212.

I know you must be very happy now!

Lol,

How did the oba word get into benin lexicon because benin conquest started during ewuares reign as far back 15c

And benin on the other hand had already started using the word oba

Dont tell the bullshit of ife, please don't

TAO11:
It's not what I thought the word "Oba" meant in Edo language, it's about the fact that the word "Oba" does not exist at all in the Edo lexicon from an etymological analysis.

The closest sounding words are the ones I have brought up in the etymological analysis (which both you and gregyboy) have also brought up and agreed to their respective meanings.

Etymological analysis shows that those Edo words are a different words from the word "Oba" both in meaning and in strict pronunciation (or spelling).

Edos use the word "Oba" to be mean "King" such that when you say "Oba Gha to Kpe E" what you mean is "King Ghato kpe E" and not "Shine or Red Gha To Kpe E. Lol

The Edo root "Baa", and the Edo nouns Noba and N'Oba have absolutely nothing to do etymologically with "Oba". All the similarity between them and this begins and ends in the quite similar sounds.

Again, my reference to the use of the word "Oba" in an 1897 work was not to demonstrate anything, but to disgrace you for lying that the word "Oba" begins to be used by the Yorubas in the 1900s.

So, that's the beginning and end of the use of that reference. No where did I say that was the Yoruba's earliest use of the word. Stop committing strawman fallacy.

My actual argument is here:

The evidence that the word "Oba" (for "King" is an indigenous Yoruba word lies in the fact that its relevant etymology is found in the Yoruba lexicon.

In contrast, the evidence that the word "Oba" is alien to (but loaned into) the Edo lexicon lies in the absolute absense of same word (and its meaning) from the Edo lexicon.

Q. E. D.


And this exchange has continued up to this point for only one of only two possible reasons, namely:

(1) You have no clue what etymological analysis is and how it works.

(2) You're pretending to be clueless about it while you see the issue.

There is no 3rd alternative.

I understand how you feel about all these. It's quite difficult to let go of what you've been indoctrinated over a long period to beleive is fact sometimes even in the face of incontrovertible contrary evidence.

Still not convinced

We edos introduced to the yorubas through the conquest of the eastern yorubas

Lemme ask? what did the benins introduce to the yorubas, lets not say conquest before you deviate my attention, lets say through interaction between both party

Am still waiting for the link

samuk:
I will like to explore and align myself with the suggestion by Ryder that most people that now occupied southern Nigeria would have once lived in the Niger Benue confluence, that is if they had not always been in their respective domains from the beginning of time.

Yea, the benin obas used to own horses and dwarfs, were did the dwarfs go, did they get extinct or were they used for rituals....

The benue people local dish is pounded yam and thier soup

Horses are not found in rainforest regions so how did the oba ride in horses were did they get them from...

I think the Oghene is an igala man it took the effort of both the Portuguese and benin to defeat
Them

I believe benin is an offspring of igala people

Check this artwork

I belive this artwork relate to a northern person than igbo or yoruba

TAO11:
Moreover, I told you before that if you dont know anything. It's simple just shut up.

The problem I see here is that you've veen lied to so much. You've read too much of "edoworld", "edoblog," "edo-nation" websites.

If I ask you for evidence now to back up your lie that the Yorubas' use is less than 100 years ago. You will start scratching head.

I showed you hlw the etymology of "Oba" is found in Yoruba labguage but not found in Edo language.

Yet you're still here talking about 100 years. I'm beginning to think you have no clue what etymology means.

It means that even if the word with (obviously with its relevant meaning) is found in your language 2000 years ago, and its etymological derivation is absent as I have shown, then this is proof that it is what linguists call loanword.

And I have shown that its etymology is found --- in a simple, direct, no gymnastic manner --- in the Yoruba language. Proving it to be part and parcel of the lexicon. Thus your less than 100 years assumption (without any evidence as usual) dies a natural death.


To cap it up, the attachment is page from a book completed in the year 1897. Reverend S. Johnson The History of the Yoruba People

It contains an account on the Great Oyo Empire and shows how the people at some point during the reign of Aole (or Awole) stopped swearing in the name of the deities but now in the name in the name of the much feared king himself, saying:

"Ida Oba ni yio jemi:" --- meaning: "May the Kings sword destroy me".

These words were written down in this page as you see it below more than 100 years ago, thus destroying your less than 100 years imagination.

Let me guess your spinning of this less than 100 years bungle ...

But that's actually by the way, the etymological analysis says it all.

Post the link of the book


Lets examine the date date

Are you saying benins borrowed from oyo or from the imaginary ife

You and your colleagues always say yoruba use to be spoken in the plalace untill recently

I just laff when i read all those nonsense claims filled with desperation

samuk:
I don't really see where we disagree on the issue or meaning of Oba.

Oba means much more than a king in Benin, I never told you it means a king.

It may mean king in Yoruba but until the 1900s there was no such king in Yoruba land that goes by the title Oba but Benin have been using it for almost 1000 years.

Was there such thing as a common Yoruba language 1000 years ago, no there wasn't.

So which dialects of the various Yoruba tribes did the word originates from.

Everyone who now called themselves Yoruba were previously of different tribes speaking different dialects.

Ekiti dialects can't be understood by Ijebu, same with various other Yoruba tribes before the Oyo dialect was standardised as the common Yoruba language for all.

Even at that, there are still various dialects being spoken by people of eastern Yoruba that Lagos Yoruba will not understand.

How can Benin that have been using the word/title for almost a thousand years be the one that copied it from Yoruba that started using it for their kings in less than 100 years ago.

If it means the one that presides on modern day Yoruba, then the Yorubas must have copied it from the Benin/Edo language which is much older than modern Yoruba.

There is no documentation that they used the word oba as a collective noun before the advent of the white.......

Instead of them to shut up since they cant prove it, they still sticking thier mouth out in defense

If the benin-ife can be proven it truly existed then there will be a debate for the ownership of oba title

I cant imagine benin cutting off relationship agsinst ife people who happened to help them restore thier monarch


Samuk what do you think about the origin of the benin people

babtoundey:
So you too are waiting for the response of the guy that said the Benin came from Nupe/Igala... Then we all must be waiting for Godot

I was the one who said it, am literally telling areafada to defend agsinst my claim so i told him i was waiting for his defense agsinst my claims

AreaFada2:
Oba Ewuare at his coronation in 2016 recognised Omonoyan/Oramiyan as the first Oba of the current dynasty. Previously because he wasn't really widely accepted as the King and because he left after some years, he wasn't considered the real founder of the dynasty but his his son Weeks I who was born and bred in Benin land and only left the throne when upon his demise.
I am not going to disagree with what the Oba has decreed.

Current Oba is a very thorough technocrat by training and prepared for the throne since birth.

Historically the belief is that Oramiyan left Benin to found Oyo Kingdom. That for a long time made the Oba of Benin consider the Alaafin as a brother. Disagreements between both were quite rare. Though of course rivalry existed especially later as Oyo expanded to become an empire.

Lol, you still living in tales

Those were lies coined politically by the oba of benin and the alafin of oyo to dethrone the ooni they were eyeing the positions of chairman in the console of traditional rulers in the old western region

Yes our oba indulged in such degradation this is the raw truth ekaladeran story had no relationship with oromiyan or any yorubas at all
Egharevba was the one that rewrote the fairytale for oba,

Guy go and follow the other thread fron beginning to the end likewise this one toi

All the explanations will be at your feet


But also read this

Reconsideration of benin-ife relationships

Benin archeology

Ife archeology

Nupe-owo art

Read the ife, igala, nupe and benin artwork
THE MILITARY SYSTEM OF BENIN KINGDOM,
c.1440 - 1897
THESIS
in the Department of Philosophy and History submitted in partial fulfilment of
the requirements for the award of the Degree of Doctor of Philosophy of the
University of Hamburg, Germany
By
OSARHIEME BENSON OSADOLOR, M. A.
from
Benin City, Nigeria
Hamburg, 23 July, 2001


After reading all this you can later come and edit what you type

You are also free to calk our oba a liar


And stop listening to what the oba says and what egharevba wrote, egharevba published 33 books on benin history and all of them were saying different things

And yes even egharevba wrote about the mass migration from igala nupe areas to benin in tracing benin origin, did you forget thess nupenians and igalas used to be traditionalist before the advent of islam

Guy just go and read books

Biko

babtoundey:
Which war did anyone win to foist Oranmiyan on Benin? After winning a war against Benin, Oranmiyan still could not enter Benin City but resided in a village (Egor) outside Benin throughout? And it took three Obas later to get into center of Benin to erect the current palace?

So there was Oranmiyan? Your Benin brother said there was never Oranmiyan in Benin history. Your account that he made it to a village in Benin contradicts his.

"How can Benin originate from Nupe or Igala? On what cultural, royal tradition, philological or historical basis? Do you know that relationship between peoples are studied by experts?"

I didn't say Benin Originate from Igala/Nupe, your brother said so. I was even questioning the claim. If you want clarification on how Benin came from Igala/Nupe, ask your brother. I'm sure he will be bold enough to educate you on that.

It's one thing to be foul-mouthed on a anonymous forum. Making sense is another.

It is funny and ludicrous you noticed I used uncouth words for this first time and took it to heart. But you have been indifferent each time your brother uses opprobrious words.

We are waiting for the said benin guy for his reply


Unlike the yorubas who are tribalistic we benins are not if our brothers matches the line we will tell him bluntly

Since you guys cant defend benin-ife lets see our edo brother do it

AreaFada2:
.

So all that education and sophistication you guys speak of is just the art of foul language and insult? How uncouth.

Which war did anyone win to foist Oranmiyan on Benin? After winning a war against Benin, Oranmiyan still could not enter Benin City but resided in a village (Egor) outside Benin throughout? And it took three Obas later to get into center of Benin to erect the current palace?

If you say you are educated, let it at least show in your manners.

How can Benin originate from Nupe or Igala? On what cultural, royal tradition, philological or historical basis? Do you know that relationship between peoples are studied by experts? That for example The Fins are closely related to Hungarians and not their Nordic neighbours like the Danes and Swedes?

Tribal hubris doesn't make anyone look smart these days. Knowledge is out there for those who truly seek it. Yes, it takes decades to do but worth it.

It's one thing to be foul-mouthed on a anonymous forum. Making sense is another.

You have to prove to us that there was oromiyan

To all yoruba people there is no story for you all again as am concerned there was never ife benin

Before you argue benin and ife tell me the history of your clan

Tell me were the yoruba people originated from

TAO11:
Sane readers who have integrity, please see attachments below for a historical reference to the c.1480 Portuguese account of the suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin kingdom:

Thanks gregyboy for helping me to make the truths I've been repeating (with evidence) become a popular internet search result which (as you also have once testified) is becoming accessible to a wide vareity of readers all over the world. 

I am grateful.

Cheers! 

I told you to mention any of the scholar who adam knobler attested to agreed that ogane was ooni of ife and how did the scholar arrived at it... Instead you insulted me

You that believe that ogane is ooni how did you arrive at it


Block head.....

TAO11:
(1) Tell me the etymology of "Oba" as meaning "King" in Edo language!

(2) Also tell me the broken down meaning of "Orunmila" in Edo language!

(3) Quote from your Cambridge and reference in full. ;

Hahaha

O ba ( shining)


The Portuguese have known the word oba for king in benin since 14c

We already know the fact that there was no benin - ife connection

Lemme lay my emphasis before you start telling myth

The eastern yorubas were influenced by edos, the western yorubas were influenced by oyo
This two part of yoruba came together to form a general language, the eastern part of the yorubas had brought the word oba to the western yorubas. Instead of serving as a title it became a general word for king.....

Abi you forget there was a mixture of language between the two yorubas


Or would we say because kwara bears the world emir then the world emir came from yorubas to the north

Ooh i see if the title emir is not worldly recognized as an islamist name you guys would have been debating the hausas for it too

geosegun:
I likened their (davidnazee, greyboy, and samuk) case to those of people asking for their rights by taken your own rights away from you. They don't want to be checked, even when they are clearly wrong and they knew it. I just chose to ignore them. We never hated anyone, I've got Benin/edos, as friends, neighbours even channel partners in business. So I don't know what their issues are, regarding historical facts about Benin Kingship and civilization, if not inferiority complex?

Yoruba (Ife) named their city Ibinu now (Benin) - Facts; Yoruba (Ife) gave Benin her Obaship -Fact, Yoruba assisted Benin greatly with civilization and hence her booming economy (Beads and Artistic/Bronze Engraving) - Fact!!! If they don't like it, is not our business, they can go ask their ancestors why?

Sorry they can't change history and destiny. You should know they are naturally stubborn; That's why they lost woefully to the British during the punitive expedition in 1898 and their legacies destroyed shamelessly. We (Yoruba Ife) warned them via our (Knowledge of the Oracle -Ifa) but they never listened. Look at the relics of a once great Kingdom, an offshoot of Yoruba Ife. They almost destroyed some of our ancestors legacies due to their stubbornness, so I am not surprise if their descendants is showing that stubborn attributes as we are witnessing here on NL in recent times. Its in their DNA, Lol!

Prove that there was a benin - ife connection all you are saying is not based on research but on false oral account...


You guys no the politics behind the myth but you guys keep the info to yourselves and use it against us....
The yorubas keep saying our obas cooked the info of ekaladeran in the 30s, we binis didnt really know what they meant
And one of your brothers was trying to tell it but you guys again silenced him

But you know what, we ain't buying that myth anymore, after my research am going to write an article addressing this myth
And i will publish it, so our new generation wont suffer arguing on cook up myth anymore that energy will be used to research were we originates from

And that is a goal

samuk:
Tell me about it.

Did you notice how she sneaked behind to request for a link to Ryder's book.

The way she was carrying on discrediting the book, I thought she has even read the entire book, not knowing that she haven't even seen it.

Why didn't she made the request public for everyone to have access to it.

She has now ruined Geosegun little Benin/Ife project and Metaphysical Oduduwa Mecca origin.

These guys have now all gone into hiding.

Lol


For the elite there will be no ife benin discussion again


There will b no arguments again on who own the title oba since there were no actual connections
It means oba was always indigenous to benin
And it got into yoruba lexicon through benin conquest over those areas


Orumila and other shared gods with the yorubas were always indigenous to benins



I have 7mb pdf file from Cambridge analyzing benin military warfare in the pdf they reevaluated the benin ife connection and thier final conclusions was that it was a political stagnation

The oba needs not to use benin history to play politics

Even if the oba insist,
How can we connect uhe-as ife
How did they know that 1000 yrs ago the place they visited was ife and they cant remeber were they came from but remember ife
If not for the Portuguese our dating and our history would have brought difficulties assembling for us, because all account that will be told by the royals will be looking like fairytale

TAO11:
Well, the only conspiracy here are the above lies from you which I'm busting right now.

I will stop exposing your lies (such as the above) only when you stop peddling them.

I KNOW you must be frustrated now.


Anyways:
Sane readers with integrity, please see attachments below for historical reference to the c.1480 Portuguese account of the suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin kingdom:

Thanks samuk for helping to make the truths I've been repeating (with evidence) become a popular internet search result, accessible to a wide vareity of readers all over the world.

Cheers!

Desperation

geosegun:
I was just reading your comments and laugh cant stop laughing... both you and an samuk are deceiving yourselves. You can not re-write history no matter how hard you try. Yoruba (Ife) gave you (Benin) your Kingship and and civilization. You cant help it, you cant change it and you cannot re-write history. All you need to do is accept the fact and move on. Even the Romans gave the great British their civilization, the current British royals have Germans bloodline, so what is wrong in the Oba of Benin having a Yoruba Bloodline? Why are you guys allowing inferiority complex to becloud our sense of judgement?

@TAO11; I'll advise you ignore henceforth. Since they are not ready to accept reality. You have given more than enough evidence. It up to them to face reality, accept it an move on or they continue to live in self deceit.

All this would have made sense if there was really a benin-ife relationship
Lets talk about how benin conquered the yoruba people instead of fairytale

samuk:
I noticed that too, which is a very big shame, she can hardly see anything without tribal colouration.

Imagine searching for Ryder's book in vain just to learn more about Benin just to twist, downplay and misrepresent what was said about Benin.

But thanks to her tenacity, other tribes are now learning more about ancient Benin.

People look at Benin now and find it had to understand how great it once was.

A city that was once comparable to even European cities of the same era.

The Benin people were by no means inferior to the Europeans.

Benin where were people did these with great thoughts and logic not the Nigeria we have today.

If not for her i wouldn't even have come across Ryder's work and the others thanks to her i would still be debating of benin-ife myth against the opinion of ghostwon, her bigotry pushed her to share a link that will change everything that she agreed on....

Like they day hate kills... And it consumes one who posses it in abundance


If only she put bigotry aside and embrace reality she could later be the famous writter that would put both ethnic history together in thier correct form....

But no she wants to rewrite the yoruba history it only end up making her foolish, because you dont rewrite history but create a new one
Despite edos are minorites in nigeria, you can here thier voice nearer to the three big tribe


TAO11, if only you know that history cant be rewritten, but only be created

You will end your tribal bigotry,
instead of fighting edo why not fight the north against your people

samuk:
When I said this lady is deeply in love with Benin history, she denied it.

Everyone can now see for themselves that the love is infectious.

She is a total convert to Benin history, who wouldn't be.

Thanks to her, aspects of Benin history that people do not even know about are being revealed.

Even TAO11 is learning and loving it.

Animosities aside.

Huge thanks to those of you that have made this thread very educative and informative.

I am glad that our audiences, both the Benin, Yoruba and other tribes are getting educated and learning new information about a Nigeria and an African independent civilisation that mesmerised the Europeans as far back as 600 years ago.

It was even stated that the mathematics that was used to construct the Benin wall was not even discovered by Europeans at that time, so they were initially confused by how it was done.

It was after they discovered the mathematics centuries later in Europe that the wall made sense to them.

The Nigeria of today can hardly mesmerised even blacks from Africa countries let alone Europeans.

Where did will get it wrong

She has read all benin articles than even an average benin historian
And she reads them with tribal bigotry
If she was arguing for the benins against yorubas
It wont take her seconds to rumble them off
But she finds it difficult against the benins because yorubas never even had history

TAO11:
I refuse to be dragged back! Read all the comments. So far!

And read up on Olfert Dapper's to verify what I said about his permanence in the Netherlands.

Have you asked yourself why didnt olfert Dapper's same thesame about ife or other yorubas

So you mean olfert Dapper's was a benin man so he wanted go elevate benin for his tribal bigotry and he had to say benin once had street light


Nigga get a life beyond benin history

Yorubas have all the upper hand over benins in this country but instead they wont make history for themselves they will be arguing with benins that is just 7 local govt for historical connections

This is how benins found you all in the past and they conqured you guys

If not for the minorites and igbos who are speaking in behalf of yorubas the fulanis would have conquered you all by now

TAO11:
Thanks for admitting that your attachment answers nothing of my questions

Furthermore, the Europeans' comparison (in whatever light), of their newly arrived tour destination, with their homeland from which they've just departed is about the most natural thing to do.

I am not only schocked that you think such comparison is what makes Benin great, I am also shocked that you that you assume such comparison is unique to Benin.

No, that's a trio of inferiority complex, delusions of grandeur, and pure ignorance there, davidnazee. You should do better than that.

Having said that, I assume you love to know if the "white man" has any "great" thing to say about Yorubaland in those early centuries.

I will provide you with some astonishing "white man's" (lol) eye-witness testimonies of great telltale about Yoruba land.

Telltales which will not only highlight Yorubas magnificence; which will not only compare scenes in Yorubaland with parts of Europe; but which will infact indicates to you how transcendent certain aspects of Yoruba socio-political organization is over and above what is obtainable anywhere in Africa, and anywhere in Europe at the time.

Remind me much later today to provide the quotes and references. I have to leave now, I'm way way past bed time.

Cheers!

We are waiting i guess the author said so in this present century to spice up his works so that yorubas like you will feel aroused when reading

Lol


Those are the quotes that makes yoruba lazy

You guys are the problem we have in this country
Always clingy to the north just to wipe thier ass so they won't be on thier bad side

"Yoruba people please man up the fulanis are coming"


Who made that quote....


That quote was said to palddle away the useless history your fathers made so as not to look inferior in the eyes of the benins that quote was emerged as a consoler

TAO11, i see the quote as irrelevant because it calls for mockery instead of your assumed praise