₦airaland Forum

Caprigal:
Are men animals without self control?
Is it so hard for men to look in another direction when they see a scantily dressed woman instead of forcing her for sex?
If you want to blame scantily dressed women for rape then you are indirectly saying men have zero self control.

It's like saying a rich man should not dress nice or ride nice cars or live in a big house because he wants to avoid robbers.
If he gets robbed then it's his fault for attracting them by spending his money openly.
Let's condemn crime and criminals please, they are from our gender doesn't mean we should support them.

A rich man knows were to show off and not in alk places his show off will be honored
Even amingst his family it may lead to death trap

The rape cases is always one sided judgemet the lady will dress seductively, when she get raped by
a guy who couldn't control himself, all blames will be dumped on the guy and no blame on the ladies


Even the Europeans who brought this laws are reviewing them off lately if you aint aware....

Pusyiter:
I think we should be more scholastical in our approach rather than playing to the gallery of smear criticism
Your references are valid but am still trying to see the gap in literature viz-a-viz your findings?
Lets make more references pls.....

[

He is the only yoruba person here he want to rewrite yoruba history over night.... In so doing they always attach we benins to make it authentic,


TAO11, wants to also claim nupe historical record as ife......

His obsession, with rewriting yoruba history is something else that amazes even is fellow
yoruba people


Benin-ife never existed,we keep singing it to him he wont listen because, there is so much gain if they can link benin-to ife

History recorded no relationship with between benin and ife even when other yorubas states were documented by Europeans who came to visit benin, ife was omitted, they came up with orun oba ado cooked up story were the benins goes to bury the benin oba heads in ife, the Portuguese and other European saw so many oba demise but they never recorded that the oba heads were been taking to ife for burial......


The benin-ife relationships who only came up during the time benin were in the former western region, the Oduduwa myth was originated to unite the all western tribe to one ancestory benins thinking it will do them good accepted it, upon the acceptance we benin were still marginalize When we left the western region the benin historian had rewriting a counter story of Oduduwa to favour them, but that was the biggest mistake they made till today , instead of debunking the entire claims and that it was a made up stunt, through the years the lies have been made to cover up more lies instead of telling the truth there was never a connection btw both party

TAO11:
I insult you because you are willfully dvmb. You are simply too dvmb to be alive, as you deny what is blatantly obvious before your eyes.

You simply can't believe your eyes and your mind that your newly found slavemaster land (Nupe) was debunked, while your ancestral slavemaster land (Ife) was upheld.

The text clearly reads, Yufi "is normally taken to mean Nufe (Nupe) on the supposition of a mislection of Arabic n as y. But a more faithful reading would be Ufe (alternatively pronounced Ife). This is acceptable geographically and fits nicely the political and economic realities of that time."

Now to spoonfeed your kindergerten brain as you obviously can't read for yourself:

(1) "Supposition" :-- For the sake of your rusty brain, the simple equivalnece of this word is "assumption".

In other words, the widespread rendering of "Yufi" as "Nufe (Nupe)" is an assumption.

(2) "But" :-- For the purpose of your clogged brain, this word is a conjuction which shows a contrast between the Nufe (Nupe) assumption, and the Ufe (Ife) reading.

(3) The Ife reading is said clearly by the text, in black and white, to be "a more faithful reading" in contrast to "Nupe" which is based on a mere assumption. Note that the word "faithful" here signify "accurate" unlike "assumption".

(4) In addition to being "accurate", the Ife rendering of "Yufi" is said to match the "geography" as described by Ibn Battûta.

(5) In addition to being "accurate" and matching in "geography", the "Ife" rendering of "Yufi" is also said to match "the political and economic realities of that time" as described by Ibn Battûta.


This is how to catch self-imposed fools like gregyboy --- that is, by breaking it down to their clogged brain kindergaten level such that there is no where else for them to take cover.

Nigga so very pained when i quote him because i always burst is liars


Bigotry has blinded

TAO11


Dont quote me such work you know me i will pay no attention to it

Point 1 But more faithfully reading will be ufe pronunced as ife,this is acceptable geographical and its fit nicely the the political and economic realities at that time


Point 2: nupe lands remain important for this argument since there are artistic and linguistic clues that it serves as the link between ife and mali empire


The author didnt come to conclusions on both point.....

Stop quoting such works here..... You dummy

Even if you want to let a nupe person be present to defend thier point

Your brothers know you are fooling yourself they have all left leaving you to fight your lies

TAO11:
I noticed you're slow. I already debunked you when I wrote the following on the other thread from where you copied and pasted thus here:

Scholars won't just do some kindagerton sh!t like you did above to come to the conclusion that Yufi is Ife.

They won't write several pages of articles and tons of publications simply repeatedly writting yufi = ufi.

No they don't think with their anvs like you.

The scholarly article debunks your newly found slave-master land, "Nupe", as the referent of "Yufi", while affirming "Ife".

I advice that you read the article. Oh, my bad --- you can't read. I forgot.



Crawl back into your hole and let your Oga talk to me. You're presenting the Benin sides of this discussion as dvmb folks. They won't openly tell you this.

In my writeup i didnt even mention one insult

But, everything you wrote was 40% insult and 60% nonsense



The article didnt come to a conclusion on both side but mumuboy already concluding is ife

Your brothers have all left....
I will advise you to do thesame because you're speaking like you're drunk

TAO11:
Yes, Ife has been documented into writings by the most travelled explorer of all time --- the Arab Ibn Battuta --- at least a century before Benin will ever get noticed by some Europeans who were seeking a route to Asia through West Africa.

Ibn Battuta in the early and mid1300s documented on "Yufi" just like the Portuguese in the late 1400s documented on "Benin"

The difference is that we did not timidly accept the brown man's mis-rendering of "Ufe/Ife" as "Yufi", unlike the Edo people who timidly accepted the white man's misrendering of "Ubini/Ibini" as "Benin".

Moreover, it is not skin tone which dictates our history. I am not sure the Binis can say the same considering how they sheepishly accepted the mis-rendering "Benin".

However, I know of a "white" missionary, David Hinderer documenting on Ife, et al. in the 1850s. Leo Frobenius in 1910.

[These are just by the way though since y'all want to see a "white man" in the picture. Hence, debunking samuk's myth of "1930/40"]

See the attachment below for the scholarly identification of Ibn Battuta's Yufi:


Reference:
J. E. G. Sutton: "Ibn Battuta's Yufi - Bronze and Gold in Mid-Iron-Age Africa", Transafrican Journal of History, Vol. 10, No. 1/2 (1981), p.160.

The nupe people are not here to claim what is theirs but the yorubas are quick to claim it for them....

Nupe which is more closer to mali have not raises a voice but tao11 is raising the voice for the yorubas claiming yufi is ife

The writer didnt come to conclusions but you TAO11 already did, debunking the fact it could also be nupe


You shouldn't even cite an article like this, even if you want to atleast both a yoruba man and a nupe man should be present at the debate.....

But no tao11 will remain unrest

All other yorubas have left with shame and saw no need to patch up thier history any longer but tao11 would remain

Pusyiter
Samuk

TAO11 if we are going to accept this article fod citation a nupe man must be present atleast one
The author didnt conclude it was ife so you shouldn't cite it


I know you will hate me more with this


Ife never had any relationship with benin

When Portuguese asked about the benin sovereignty if there was ife, Oduduwa, oromiyan
The wouldn't have omitted it

TAO11:
Quote it out (where the author said or implied "pRoBaBiLiSm" ) was the simple request.

Rather, you went on a ranting spree with a large ocean of tears.

Anyways, your "Nupe" identification for Ibn Battuta's "Yufi" has been debunked and trashed.

While the "Ife" identification for Ibn Battuta's "Yufi" have been upheld.

Thank God scholars don't make conclusions from their anus as you obviously do from your comment here and your other comments.

The name yufi =ufi, is what makes ife considered by authors all other element support nupe

Is painful the nupenians are not here to argue for themselves, yorubas are here stealing thier history

samuk:
You are right. But don't forget that having so many of us outside the country have also contributed to some of our youths becoming lazy due to the monthly remittances.

I agree that those that have better Ideas on how to improve the social economy situation of our people should contribute their bits.

The population of Edo in diaspora is more than enough to turn things around for the better if the political class and rulers knows how to tap this valuable human resources.

I have few ideas of how to tap this human resources I am developing, I intend to send them to the governor when completed, hopefully he will see the benefits in them.

The truth is our oba is not helping out particularly the new one, he feels so very comfortable with edo been like this, i know he is working on Gelegele before the completion of the project edo people would have lost hope
After the completion of the sea port it will be another political struggle to get approval to get clarification of goods at the seapirt

I want him to call all the wealthy men in benin to see how to invest in edo state and see how to raise the standard of life of the benin people


As big as edo no industries all we see are storey buildings built by edos oversee....


You our people are lazy, they want fast money if we can make job available to them, i think the lazinesd will wear off

TAO11:
I have made this clear enough (and I think it can not be clearer) that:

(1) On the Yoruba side, the Ife account makes it clear that the Benin's Oba dynasty is descended from Ife.

(2) On the Benin side, this same account (just as it is spelt out in the Ife's) is accepted from the earliest indigenous Benin writtings.

It is admitted by Oba Eweka II (1920s) from the evidence of the surviving written account of H. L. Ward-Price that goes back to Oba Eweka II (1920s).

It is also admitted by Oba Akenzua II (1930s) from the evidence of the surviving written account of at least two "Conferences of Yoruba Chiefs" --- a group which he is proudly a number 3 member of.

It is not until during Erediauwa I's (1970s) emergence that all the olden and classical accounts and narratives attempted to be turned over their heads with the introduction of the "Izoduwa" narrative.

Today we now know why this idea was invented in the 1970s, as historians have since trashed the
"Izoduwa" narrative as an apocryphal, pseudohistorical, deliberately unauthentic, over-ambitious joke.

In sum, the narrative that the Oba dynasty of Benin is from Ife stands tall just as it is always been believed by the Ifes, and as it is always been believed by the Bini royalties prior to the 1970s.

And I'm glad that everyone can now understand why there was a revision by the Binis in the 1970s in a newly independent Nigeria.

So, for all those who care for the truth:

(1) Both Ife and Benin royal dynasties are the same with the latter (i.e. Benin Kingdom) being a descendant of the former (i.e. Ife)

(2) Well, the Benin royal house always insisted its Benin Oba dynasty was originally from Ife, until a few years after independent Nigeria when a modern (1970s) Benin Oba attempted to overturn what his Benin ancestors have always held on to, by introducing a supposedly banished prince narrative which has anyways been debunked by historians.

(3) Ife beleive that Oduduwa is an indigenous Ife-Yoruba man.

The idea that heavenly personages descended from the sky predates Oduduwa himself. Such idea is not held by any common Yoruba person as historical, neither do historians treat it as such.

It is simply similar to the idea among the Binis that the first Ogisos of Igodomigodo actually sky-dived into Benin City from heaven.

Or the idea among the Binis that it was God Almighty (the Supreme Being) himself who gave birth to the first Oba of Benin as his last born son.

For the umpteenth time, the idea that Oduduwa was from Mecca is alien to the Yorubas as it originates from Nothern Nigeria.

It is simply an Hausa man's opinon of Oduduwa's origin which Reverend Johnson merely collected through Hugh Clapperton's records.

So whether or not I agree with you on who your father is should not make a difference to your children, especially if historians agree with you, right? So, maintain the same energy for Oduduwa.

The very statement which you keep yapping on that ("for the first four hundred years of Benin history, nothing was recorded or said about Benin having any relationship with Ife" ) is debunked and refuted in the very attachement of the comment you replied to. How ironic?

It reads: "Historically, ethnographic sources and European writings of the early and mid-sixteenth century [i.e. early/mid 1500s] (based on relations from Benin of the late fifteenth century) and of the early seventeenth century, also testify to the Second Benin Dynasty's links with Ife."

Reference:
Dmitri M. Bondarenko; "Advent of the Second (Oba) Dynasty: Another Assessment of a Benin History Key Point", History in Africa, Vol. 30, Cambridge University Press, (2003), p.71.


And lastly regarding the Ogane (not Ogavna as you've deliberately misspelt it considering your consistency) of the Portuguese account, I have shown three important things, namely:

(A) That the Portuguese account clearly shows that "some twenty moons' journey" information was indeed collected from the Binis.

And interestingly the "traditional" time duration it takes to go from Benin to Ife (based on the data from Okojie cited by Ryder) comes after a detailed Math to just over 19 moons.

I have shown the Maths over and over. Will you then attribute this astonishing matching numbers to mere coincidence??

(B) That the Portuguese account clearly shows that the 250 leagues (i.e. ~ "900 miles" ) information was not gotten from the Binis.

Rather, it is clear from the account itself that the 250 leagues (i..e ~ "900 miles" ) was d'Aveiros' own personal guess of what the distance "would be" based on the actual information he got --- i.e. the informatiom of "some twenty moons' journey".

Moreover, the ancient Binis (just like every other ancient people in this part of the world) do not measure distances in "leagues", but rather using natural phenomena such as days, moons, etc. Moreover, d'Aveiro did not commit to the trip to ascertain his guess.


Lastly, I have demonstrated that Ife was believed in ancient times (and in present times --- at least among the Yorubas) to be the place from where the sun rises.

I have cited David Hinderer's "Diaries" (1850s) to corroborate this fact. I have also alluded to Oba Eweka II's repeated daily connection of the rising sun to Ife to buttress this point.

For us today, the phrase "the place from where the sun rises" on one hand, and the word "east" on another hand, both apparently describe the same direction. And that's whole point of the "east" in d'Aveiro's account.

The Binis clearly refered to Ile-Ife when they uttered the phrase "the place from where the su rises" because of this well known epithet of Ife.

The evidence shown from David Hinderer's "Diaries", Oba Eweka II's insistence, and the Yoruba's continous use of this phrase till date, for Ife can not over-emphasise this fact.

But on the overall, I can underatand why you get emotional. What I can't understand is your consistent dishonesty and pretense.

Cheers!

Only that ife is in the west and not in the east


Despirado.....

samuk:
No, I am not based in Nigeria.

Nice.... Our edo Brothers, benin don empty youth nor they town again ooh, you can hardly speak to on or two edo person who is a youth that have not left shores of nigeria....
But the issue here is they return empty with no investment or ideas to help edo


Edo is currently experiencing rapid depopulation of its youth and no advantage to it, more of the disadvantage of loosing our culture and our economic power


All am saying is that its nice to be out there, but when you are out there you guys should always think of how to help edo state,

Edo used to be the number one transport service center in nigeria nowadays they are left with ruins..... We need to return the knowledge over there back here to make edo great again

Am still schooling in uniben, and i hope to join you guys someday.....


If there is a charity bank were every edo in diaspora drop a dollar every months or weeks to help the less privileged edo people back home it will be nice.......

samuk:
If you most connect the Benin dynasty to the Ife dynasty, it's important that you make the connection properly by stating what both history of Benin and Ife/Yoruba says about the relationship.

When you select which of the story to tell, you are not giving your audience the full story and that is disingenuous.

After telling the audience about Oba Eweka 11, you should have also let the audience know that Oba Erediawa told Ooni that he is Ooni's father.

Please always present a balance narratives and allow the readers to have all the information to make an informed conclusion.

Next time you make reference to Benin/Ife connection, tell it properly and not one sided.

The Benin and Yoruba people don't agree to be one people.

The Benin royalty and Yoruba royalty don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa who they claim to be their father.

Anyway you look at it there are disagreements on all sides. Don't make it look like it's only the people that disagree and the royal fathers agree, that will be lie because the royal fathers themselves also don't agree.

This disagreements on all sides begs the question of whether there were any relationship in the first place.

It would've been best for everyone to stay on their lanes but the Yorubas are not letting go because that would continue to put their history at a disadvantage because Benin history is four hundred years ahead. The only way to close this gap is to link both royal household/institutions together.

For those that care:

1. Both Benin and Ife royal dynasty believe they are related

2. Benin royal dynasty believe they started the Ife royal dynasty through their banished prince who fled to Ife with his supporters and became Oduduwa/Ooni.

3. Ife/Yoruba believe that Oduduwa was from, mecca, from the sky, an indigine of Ife. Even the Yorubas themselves don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa.

From the above, the Benin and Ife Royal household/institutions don't agree on the identity of Oduduwa.

In addition to the aforementioned, are people, mostly Benin that don't believe any of the accounts of Oduduwa.

It's up to the readers to decide what they believe but what I have presented above is the true picture of things as they currently stand.

For those of us who question Oduduwa, we based our question on the simple fact that for the first four hundred years of Benin history, nothing was recorded or said about Benin having any relationship with Ife. Such connections and relationships is too important to be missing from Benin history. How could they have missed out the Ife relationship from Benin history for four hundred years if really it existed.

In the same period numerous accounts of Benin/Lagos, Benin/Akure, Benin/Ekiti, Benin/Oyo, were written but Benin/Ife is missing.

Benin/Ife only came into Benin history in the 1800s.

Every tribes Benin had relationship with in the first four hundred years were all recorded in Benin history. The Igalas/Idah, Ijaws, Anioma, Itsekiri, Urhobos and many more in south/middle belt were all recorded in Benin history but Ife is missing.

In the periods between 1475 to 1897 there were frequent European visitors to Benin, the Portuguese, Dutch, French and Italian all wrote about Benin for the first four hundred years, nothing was written or said about Ife in their written records.

In the same period of 1475 to 1897, there were countless Europeans who were resident in Benin, sometimes for years and there is no account of any of them visiting Ife.

All other cities Benin had relationship with were visited, cities like Lagos 1603, etc. But the European didn't find it curious enough to visit Ife that some people are now shoving down our throats by fire by forces as the source of Benin greatness.

The European visited, resided in Benin repeatedly for four hundred years and didn't for once go to Ife that was supposed to have the closest relationship with Benin. If anyone doesn't smell a rat, they need to examine their noses.

Before I forget, it was claimed that about 1480, a Benin informant did mention one Ogavna to a Portuguese visitor. This Ogavna lived in a place that was 20 moons or 20 month or 1 year and 8 months journey from Benin city, this place was to the east of Benin and about 900 miles in distance.

You spoke well.....

I guess more threads should be created to tackle this myth

Are you in benin?

Would also want everyone one of us to visit the palace to get first hand information on benin history and thier ways of life in the past it will help in the location of ogene and were we binis migrated frim

TAO12:
Dvmb dvmb

He completely debunked out your Nupe slavemaster outrightly.

And he establishes Ife.

Where does he express "pRoBaBiLiSm", you dummy? Quote it out.

And no, he is not from Ife. Academics and scholars don't reason from the anvs like you do.

Mumuboy nor go read, i never said he was an ife person i said he could be an ife historian


Yufi =nufe
Yufi=ufe

Ife only came into the picture through the world y ufi, geographically nupe is closer to mali and the prospered through trade with arab merchants,

We know ife never had any military or economic prospects or or had any contact with mali, bringing ife into the picture by scholars is purely ignorance all fact still bends to nupe

But what concerns me,

The battle should be between yorubas and nupe people

Osagyefo98:
No time debating rubbish. We don't spare such time.@bolded.


Yorubas sees Edo as part of them always , it is only edos that always try to show distinct between both leading to loads of argument and unending articles...which. can only end in both accepting they.are same.

I guess you're seeing it, yorubas want to attach themselves to benin even when all documents prove otherwise,
They are lovers of greatness they will attach themselves to the north to get power as soon as the igbo retains the power they attach themselves to them too

If thier lies suceed in the nearest future, anything benin archieved over yoruba areas, will amount to nothing. all glories will be going to them while they marginalize us the benin because deep down they know truly we are not yorubas, just the way they did to us in former western region,

Lastly they will take the full pride to tournament the igbos and the hausas too because benin history is beyond nigeria alone

The oba of benin accepted the Oduduwa history in the former western region so as to reckon the benins as yoruba, even with his attempt we were still constantly marginalize, we had to pull out but awolowo the demon was willing to keep us back

TAO12:
Shut up, you dyslexiac! A dyslexiac who lies, what a horrible combination.

That's the summary page of the article where he debunked your new found slave master --- "Nupe" --- while establishing that "Yufi" is "Ife".

Point out where it says "pOsSiBiLiSm", block head. May be you sbould begin to learn to read instead of siting all day asking for pictures.

I know you're about to ask for Ibn Battuta's picture and Sutton's picture to see iF yUfI iS tRuLy IfE.

And Sutton is not an Ife man!

Dump boy....

I never mentioned he said or wrote out the word possibilism you slowpoke....

I used possibilism or probabilsm to describe what he said

And nupe happen to have more probabilsm, ife just came up because he really couldnt help it because he is an ife historians

TAO12:
Thank you for this comment.

The fraudulent gregyboy has tried this "Nupe" misidentification of "Yufi" with me on another thread where I made him regret it by give him thorough flogging which made him run away quiet as usual.

See the link to the reply here:

https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/36#88487170


Thornton(1988) himself which he relies on for his bigoted identification of "Yufi" as "Nupe" only alludes to it cursorily. It wasn't like that was specifically what the paper was out to identify and address.

Moreover, "Thornton specializes in West-Central African history (i.e. the Kongo-Angola polities) and their diasporas, and Nigerian history is a bit of a side-step from his main areas of focus." This is where is comparative strenght and interest lies --- that is, Central African military history.

I have given him a classic work whose primary focus is on the identification of Ibn Battuta's "Yufi". He ran away quietly after finding out the truth, only to escape down here to continue peddling what he escaped from elsewhere.

The work I cited clearly alludes to the popular misidentification of Ibn Battuta's "Yufi" as "Nupe" before then proceeding to clarify that "Yufi" (in West Africa) as documented by Ibn Battuta in the 1300s, is no other place than "Ufe" aka "Ife".

gregyboy is only mad that his Ubinu, or Ubini, or Ibini didn't get noticed historically until a century later --- which is even by coincidence.

See attachment:

Reference:
J. E. G. Sutton: "Ibn Battuta's Yufi - Bronze and Gold in Mid-Iron-Age Africa", Transafrican Journal of History, Vol. 10, No. 1/2.

You have reading problems,

From the writeup i can see he is an ife historian, he was trying to bring the possiblism of ife into the pictures, but still emphasize more on nupe as
The greater possiblism

Yorubas you guys are too desperate its so annoying

samuk:
No I haven't. I believe the Benin artworks need to be studied closely.

I plan to go to the palace soon to get information
More on benin particular on thier calendar and this 20moon walk how is calculated and several other information, i guess information like this will help us overcome somw obstacles over this issues....

If you are in benin you should do thesame too

TAO12:
You have NOT addressed a single thing in my comment.

You have only reacted emotionally and for obvious reasons. Lol.

At no point did I tell you that the 20 moons journey is a "mystical" or unreal journey. No it is real, in case you're implying the opposite.

[You are about to start again. And you know what I'm talking about].

(1) I made it clear that he did indeed receive the 20 moon journey information from the Binis as the account clearly shows.

And this fits perfectly into the calculation of the traditional walk duration I showed.

(2) I also made it clear that he indeed did not receive the 250 leagues information from the Binis as the account clearly shows.

I quoted the account to show this. He wrote clearly enough to show that the 250 leagues is how own personal interpretation of the 20 moons journey distance.

"... at twenty moons' journey --- which, ... would be about two hundred and fifty of our leagues --- ..."

I also added that the ancient Binis have no such unit (as leagues) of measuring distance.

In this part of the world, we simply use natural phenomenon such as days, moons, etc in measuring distance.

And that was precisely what the Bini did in giving him the distance information --- 20 moons journey.

And I did demostrate that Ife is believed in ancient times (and till date) to be the place from where the sun rises.

And I cited David Hinderer's, "Diaries" (1850s) to corroborate this.

I also alluded to Oba Eweka's II repeated connection of the rising sun to Ife even in as recent as the 1920s, to show that this local epithet of Ife was known in Benin too.


Nay, you ignored all the evidence and instead misrepresented me and replied completely to a strawman emotionally. Fair enough!

Lol.

Biafra call thier lands the rising sun mean ogene is at biafra

samuk:
Irrespective of whether it's going and coming, the evidences doesn't support Ife as being the location. I believe it's going only.

Definitely ogene is not ife by all documents and even the artwork

I guess oghene really existed as proven by ryder if it was a myth artworks wont depicit it,probably when the Portuguese ask the benins about oghene, oghene had lost is glories and major towns under it had become autonomous there was no need of visiting the areas by the Portuguese....

I guess that sculpture holding a cross with an helmet was depicting the benin oba holding the scared items and not necessarily a messager as we thought

If only we can gather information from the palace concerning this issue we can gather intel on how past benin society works and relate them to the other data

Have you read the works of

John K. Thornton
History in Africa


On the other hand can you relate this sculpture

samuk:
I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

The 20moon journey could it be going and coming

samuk:
I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

What i feel is we are mistaken both identity as one ragnum ogvene located around the arab regions and oghene told by the benins to the Portuguese

I guess there is a confusion between both identities i still go with Ryder's article

SilverSniper4:
Well no, that was not really what I meant to convey by citing that article. The "Ogane" ruler the Benin informants mentioned to the Portuguese most likely was situated in what is now Nigeria, or at least somewhere else in west Africa,. I am saying in that post that the view of historians (especially those who are specialists on medieval history) is that the "Organa" on 14th, 15th, and 16th century European maps is actually a reference to the North African city of Ouargla, in the Sahara desert, very far from Nigeria and nearer to the coasts of North Africa. In other words, the "Saracen" ruler designated "Rey de Organa" on the European maps is not a reference to the "Ogane/Hooguanee" ruler that the Benin informants later told the Portuguese about.

I was just noting that the evidence points to the "Ogane/Hooguanee/Oghene" ruler being someone else entirely different from the ruler described and depicted on the maps. Ouargla is a Berber or Arabic name, that was most likely corrupted into Organa on medieval European maps.

Oghene/Ogane/Hooguanee was most likely someone entirely different.

Yea, they had misplace the two different kingdom as one

What of the Arab account on yuffi most yorubas
Ascribe it to ife

samuk:
Bruv, I get your gist, but you most also accomodate the fact that even some Benin people may not have read as widely as others due to the fact that history is not currently being taught in our educational institutions.

Few Benin are very well acquainted with the history of Benin and the majority may find it difficult to be able to put things in their proper historical perspectives.

I doubt if anyone can really claim to be an eencyclopedia of the documented history of Benin spanning almost 600 years.

There are various aspects that different people will be acquainted with while there are probably still documents from various centuries that still haven't been examined or not in public domain.

Threads such as this, albeit being stated with the so purpose of Benin bashing has actually became a vehicle to showcase little known aspects of Benin history with majority of the silent readers getting educated.

Whilst some people may be put off by the general attitudes of some of the debaters, every now and then, they intervene with superior documented evidences to prevent the debate from derailing completely and help put some of the arguments in their true historcal contexts, thereby exposing those with malicious intent.

Simply writing off the Yorubas as having nothing credible to say without advancing superior evidence could be counter productive and it becomes who's shut is the loudest and the Yorubas may be saying nonsense but they have a collective voices that are very loud.

So, interventions in threads like this from those with superior knowledge and evidence of the topic being discussed are very welcome, it enhances the knowledge of all, both active participants and silent readers.

The issue am having with ghostwon he speaks on myth with no evidence to back them off and he is a tribalistic, if you ask him of prove he will wisk off....
I begged him to tell me his opinion why he felt ekaladeran and ogene are myth instead he gave me insult, this was what TAO11 was always referring to when he lost an argument with me

I try to always keep the thread inline, even putting
Off an igbo guy trying to derail the thread

I just want this thread to be a pure rational thread were we put in knowledge into debate and see truth comes out from myth

Saying benin conquered or migrated to ghana and other African countries with no prove are mere claims and i wont buy into it, not from the yorubas or my tribe benin either our sense of judgment shouldn't be overwhelmed by tribal bigotries
I myself would be happy if i see proves to them if i feel satisify with the proves given i will argue for it

ghostwon:
Shut your mouth, idiot.
You know you are a bastard and a fool pretending to be intelligent.
There was no Oduduwa, but that doesn't warrant all the insults you are levelling against our emperor and all the attacks you are levelling against the Edo.
Basically you are a fool and the earlier you shut your mouth, the better. For years you claim one thing, then suddenly a shitty article is written then you change your speech entirely ! Like a controlled robot. I have always said oduduwa is a fairytale with proof, but since I am not an article you never listened. I produced several documents showing the extent of Benin empire, but since I am not an article you wouldn't listen. One day you might want to reveal your true identity, because your level of stupidity looks imaginary. Bigger traitor than you, I have never seen. It seems you only live to troll while claiming different identities.

You see a fool,
i have read so many articles and if it doesnt add up i disgard it, i don base my judgment on tribalism or Racial bigotries
You and your fellow cohort had once called me a white south african because i created a thread aginst the identity of african food crops

Again

Oba will be given respect that he deserves from me, if he deserves non i give him non, regardless of all this he is still my oba but i wont put him first before truth.....

In life the people who says the truth are always regarded as the villains
Am always at the fore front on this forum fighting for the benins and this runawy boy
open is mouth to call me a traitor because am standing against what he believes

Untill you can prove to me benin extended to ghana or togo through conquest or migration then you havnt said nothing

I believe yorubas had migrated over those areas through slave raid and the yoruba civil war

ghostwon:
I said long ago that there is something wrong with gregyboy and nobody listened. He has a very low self-esteem. By the way I showed several precolonial maps showing the extent of Benin empire.

Talk with fact and tales


You have issues with me speak out, i dont agree with most of everything you say because you speak fairytales.....

I had ask you explain why you felt oghene never existed you dished out, you also claim ekaladeran never existed too i

You need to be checked


Am not a bigot like the rest of you am a humanist
I support the truth regardless were its coming from.....

If you wanna prove a point benin stretches over those areas prove it, instead of insulting me

AreaFada2:
Where was Orhogbua when news of his father's demise go to him? Which river in Africa was he at?
Lagos is far from Benin by those days standards. Why was it not planted by nearby Ijebu or Egba that planted their monarchy and organised Lagos?
Why will Ghana now be the one they reach first?

By your logic some would say Benin were not seafaring people and could not have reached Lagos. But there is clear evidence Benin did.

Yoruba want us to believe Oduduwa came from Egypt or Mesopotamia or Israel yet Benin cannot reach Ghana? Really?

Benin had Ozigue (majorly Ijaw people) at it's disposal.

As for Benin reaching out to Ga and others, I won't reveal more details despite being goaded to. Because it seems many want to double-cross.

I heard of Ooni visit to claim Ga before. But I didn't believe it. I guess the clip upload here is probably it. I still have not watch it. I write in between a busy schedule.

Let everyone do their own reaching out. Let the truth win in the end.

I do not need a map. I have travelled that area: Ivory Coast, Ghana, Togo and Benin is like backyard to me.

I did not study geography. But by class 4 we knew the capitals of all American States, capital of all African states, and much of regional geography. Complete with maps.

Be it ship building in Japan, logging in New Foundland, sheep farming in New Zealand, etc.

So profound was our secondary geography that a geography graduate of nowadays will have to be careful challenging the level of then.

Let me stop not to come across as showing off.

No record was shown that benin ruled or had anyform of migration into those areas if benins were sold as slaves there might be a reconsideration of slaved ships dropping them off over those area

Abeg our oba should tells why he twisted the ekaladeran story with egharevba and try to attach ughoton to ife....

We dont even know were we migrated from but we already claiming another tribe from another country

Is that not hyper tribalism

As for this one, am supporting yorubas for it,

Thats how one other benin guy was claiming benin sold themselves to slavery just for his tribal bigotry

IDENNAA:
Nobody would insult you if you make an unfounded claim , such as Onicha has Bini ancestry, rather he would gladly ask you to show the tiniest proof. Of course , you have no proof , however, your only support is " they said" ....nothing more and you think you deserve respect.

The problem with you Bini people is that you dare try to over emphasize, over state and over hype your little village chiefdom , though you have little to prove your purported greatness and influence....your language is barely alive, nigga! Abeg , go bow to your Oba and leave us alone.

Mumu boy


Benin didnt rule igbos can you now take your 500 local govt area that is as big as the entire u. S. A
Out of this thread before you derail it


Bye bye....... Go off to igbo thread.....

Go and fight for your people who are been killed in South africa and dragged out in china

Igbo boy be looking for attention from a beni-yoruba thread

AreaFada2:
I made a simple submission. That we should let people define themselves.

I read a few first lines and I did not watch the video clip. I heard Ooni visited Ghana and gave some titles at one time? Is that the video clip? Is that true? I am way to busy to follow every thing everyone comes up with. 9 years of doing so is a long time.

But let people define themselves. That was my message to Meles.

I studied Geography the possibilities benins migrated into those areas is very slim, there is high probability that the yoruba people did the migration that will take place in benin would be within nigeria and not outside it

Dont see me as an hater of my own people because am saying the truth, i just love the truth than the lies


Yea you meant edo sounding names in other africa countries but we also have edo sounding names in Japan too can we now call them edo migrant
Yea, which africa countries wouldnt want to associate thier ethnic group, to a country that was named after a small tribe, i guess everyone would want to....

You can take a nigerian map and an african map and compare areas in nigeria which border other African countries you will see, they are more yorubas and the northern people, edo on the otherhand borders the ocean


I staged you on the fact of benin and ife relationship and i gave you books to read to see for yourself, benin-ife never had any relationship
Oduduwa was just a political staged stunt pulled by both oba of benin and alafin of oyo against ooni of ife, which later turned against oba of benin

Samuk
Davidnazee
Ghostwon

IDENNAA:
Nobody would insult you if you make an unfounded claim , such as Onicha has Bini ancestry, rather he would gladly ask you to show the tiniest proof. Of course , you have no proof , however, your only support is " they said" ....nothing more and you think you deserve respect.

The problem with you Bini people is that you dare try to over emphasize, over state and over hype your little village chiefdom , though you have little to prove your purported greatness and influence....your language is barely alive, nigga! Abeg , go bow to your Oba and leave us alone.

I see your agenda to turn this thread to a tribal war aint working........

We didnt conquer onitscha or even rule over them
But one little things is if you kings later mention they have any link to benins
You will run mad.... For helping them denial it

Inshort how can a small village with 7localgovt be saying they ruled igbos at a time is that not nsanity in its highest

Sorry o, benin never at one time ruled igbos it was a lie

Before you go change thread for our head