₦airaland Forum

omg!

Good game from Mancienne.

Are you guys sure about this substitution?

We need to score again before we get tired

Liverpool are losing. 2nd place is ours!

debosky:
Is the tribal colouration of the disputes your problem or disputes themselves? What is the difference on the ground between an Igbo/Ibibio clash and an Ijaw vs Ijaw clash?

As I said earlier:

Ibime:
I am more than confident in our ability to solve intra-tribal conflict as we have had those machinations in place for centuries. I am more confident in our ability to solve intra-tribal conflict than intra-state conflict.

In addition, I must add that intra-tribal disputes are solved more easily by external arbitrators who have no stake in the outcome, not the one where Odili is sponsoring Tuboniju against Koniju so he can 'deliver Okrika' for the PDP.

debosky:
Does it still not cause the same problems? As long as there is a Federal Government with oversight over everything, there will always be potential for 'state-engineered' or 'federal-engineered' attacks.

Power will be devolved from the centre. There will be no reason to engineer anything.

Elections will not have much at stake if we have a systematic derivation formula, devoid of personal influence.

debosky:
In essence, tribal administration is unworkable - there are too many tribal entities to be delineated and structured.

I had hoped that the UK council example would prove that the 'numerous no of tribes' is not an insurmountable challenge, if nothing else.

It is simple Mathematics. We have internationally recognised systems of derivation. We can slice the pie into 250 pieces and each piece will accrue revenues unto itself according to internationally recognised formulas.

Of course, before we talk about creating 250 devolved local Govts, we must settle all land disputes.

naijaking1:
Another problem with tribal grouping is that international boundries would affected in many instances: Yorubas extend into Benin Republic, Hause into Niger/Chad, etc, and Ijaws are said to be scattered all along the coast from Gabon to Sierra Leon. So how are you going to bring them into one state?

Good point. I never thought of that.

dangermous:
@ibime

the uk is prolly a poor example to use to support your cause. Yes, the councils do have some revenue raising powers but a substantial part of their income still comes from Westminster. And how does Westminster make all this money. Well, one is the City of London and the other North Sea Brent crude from Scottish waters. Input Bonny light for North Sea Brent and Niger Delta for Scotland and you practically have the Naija situation

Like I said:

Ibime:
The only difference between this system and a federation of tribes system is the organisation of the tax-structure.

Of course, by tax-structure, I mean derivation to Federal Government.

naijaking1:
Inter-state disputes are childs' play compared to inter-tribal disputes, because people identify with their tribes very religiously.
Imagine a dispute between Imo and Akwa Ibom states vs. a dispute between Igbo and Ibibio people, the later--you definitely don't want to do, otherwise the conflict could spread to other states with Igbo and Ibibio populations.

There would be no inter-tribal disputes, just as there are presently no inter-states disputes. There would be intra-tribal disputes, eg Igbos amonst themselves - but not Igbos against Ibibios because they would be governed from different centres.

When I have some time later, I shall provide evidence of how the state system provokes inter-tribal conflict using the state-engineered attack on the Ogoni by Ndoki, Okrika and Andoni people as an example.

Fayahsoul, abeg comot that snake for your posts. You be juju man?

The idea that devolving power to 250+ 'states' is unworkable is a stale idea.

In the UK, we have hundreds of councils who all administer themselves, with National Government as the only umbrella form of Government. Local councils are audited by National Govt.

These councils organise their own council taxes, economic development plans, education, environment, social services etc under guidelines from the National Govt.

The only difference between this system and a federation of tribes system is the organisation of the tax-structure.

Even in remote areas of Britain, we have councils comprising just a few thousand people.

Police, Ambulance services etc are organised on a regional level.

Where we have different councils sharing common interests and boundaries, they form a city council or district council (eg London council), represented by councillors from each of the different councils, to handle matters of regional interest. However, administration powers remain with local councils.

This system is workable in Nigeria!

The only fear that people have is that this system will shift the focus to intra-tribal conflicts eg Ijebu vs Ijesha, Okrika vs Kalabari, Imo vs Anambra etc.

Well, I am more than confident in our ability to solve intra-tribal conflict as we have had those machinations in place for centuries. I am more confident in our ability to solve intra-tribal conflict than intra-state conflict.

If you look at all the tribal conflicts in Nigeria, they are mostly linked to jostle for power within the 'state' system. eg: Ijaw-Itsekiri, Ogoni-Ijaw, Ikwerre-Okrika, Beron-Hausa, Ogoni-Ndoki etc etc etc.

The state system remains the largest hindrance to our development. Loosen the strings at the centre and watch Nigeria flourish.

Awo was a visionary.

Zik was a romantic who believed too much in the goodness of all men.

Forget all these Igbo-Ijaw yarns. We are all local politicians and local champions and we can yarn about Ijaw-Igbo history till the cock crows.

The problem with Nigeria (and the cause of inter-ethnic rivalry) lies in the constitution of Nigeria.

By declaring Nigeria to be a federation of states (formerly a federation of regions), the right to self-determination has been denied to all but the Yoruba and Hausa. Igbos, Efiks, Berons and Ijaws also have the right to self determination in some states but have significant populations trapped behind 'enemy lines' in other states.

Any ethnic minority trapped in a state controlled by another ethnic tribe is bound to suffer from a clash of cultures and will find itself regressing.

This is the case with the Igbo-speaking groups of Rivers State from 1970-1996, the Anioma-Igbos in Delta State, the Ijaws in Delta State, the Ijaws in Ondo, the Ijaws in the former Eastern Republic and the Ijaws in present day Rivers State - as well as many other tribes all over Nigeria (Igala, Nupe, Ogoni etc etc etc).

As long as we continue this unjust system, we will always have tribal conflict with each other, whether we are talking about Igbo-dominance of the former Eastern Region, Ijaw dominance of the former Rivers State or Igboid dominance of present day Rivers State.

If we accrue to all tribes of Nigeria the right to self determination, then all this nonsense yarns will end immediately.

Nigeria is a federation of tribes, not a federation of States.

Every tribe within the federation should have the right to administer itself and not have to suffer maladministration from another tribe.

We shall all administer ourselves and pay taxes to central Government.

By adopting this model, we will end tribal conflict in Nigeria IMMEDIATELY!

Then we will not have to talk about Biafra, MEND, OPC, MOSSOP, abandoned property, betrayal, lazy drunks etc.

This is the system of government Obafemi Awolowo proposed in 1947 and remains the most viable system of government till this day.

We keep talking about creating more states - in essence, all we are trying to do by creating new states is devolve power to tribes - a tacit admission that a federation of tribes is the only viable system of government for Nigeria.

Guys, did you see that idiot Kalou in the newspaper today saying that he wants to play for Arsenal?



lol. Even houseboy dey make yanga for im master house.

I am assuming it is time for contract renegotiation.

If Kalou wants to pack his bags, I shall personally drive to Cobham and pick him up (with Malouda in the boot). Although, Kalou has been playing well the last two games sha.

@ Ow11,

You yarn am as e be.

Nothing more!

Operation Obama in action!

What does this debate have to do with abandoned property? Even here in London, homeless squatters move into abandoned properties and it can take years to legally move them out. There is no war situation where people will abandon property where others will not move in. With all the bombing going on in PH those days, Housing was in short supply and any 'new' property on the market would be quickly occupied.

My family also abandoned property in Asaba. Did we get it back? Abeg, if you have an abandoned property, seek legal recourse to reclaim your land, not using it as an excuse to propagate division. You can call the 'abandoned property' syndrome a symbol of 'long throat' or you can call it a retribution or a revolution against the oppressive classes. Pick one, it doesn't really matter to me.

Have you guys gone to ask for your abandoned property in the North?

[quote author=~Sauron~ link=topic=237534.msg3522894#msg3522894 date=1235734652]I raised this issue and some SE savages nearly took ma head off.[/quote]Savages indeed! 

Lets face it- those South Westerners in London are NEVER coming home! They will live and die in Peckham for the next 100 generations. They are no more Nigerian than Sade or Seal. A lot of them are even involved in knife and gun crime nowadays

dangermous:
Ibime and Osisi. what unity between Igbos and Ijaws. lol Its overwhelming

My friend sharrap! When brothers are arguing, outsiders must keep away.

The only reason I brought up the Ndoki and Ahoada people was not to dispute their 'igboness', but to highlight that many of these tribes have varied histories and should be allowed the right to self-determination, regardless of what language they speak. If Ndoki people are Igbos, no one really cares as long as THEY CHOOSE to identify themselves as Igbos. If Ikwerre people CHOOSE NOT to identify themselves as Igbos, what makes them different from Okrika people who also speak Igbo widely, but are Ijaws? or Opobo people or Bonny people? We have Calabar people in Andoni and Opobo area but we do not force them to accept Ijaw nationality.


@ Abagworo

How can Okrika (anglicised from Wakirike) be disputable Ijaw? You nor well! It behooves you to inquire from an Okrika man before making such inane comments.

No body is arguing that 60% of PH is not Ikwerre land (disputable igbo).

But I hope you know that Ikwerre land has no access to the sea.  

If Igbo's want a seaport, we can easily give them one, but it is not by gra-gra. Ijaws are historically know for giving land to persecuted tribes who need it. The Ogoni's provide just such an example. Half of Okrika is land given to fleeing tribes.

Please, it is not by gra-gra and forced annexation. We can be diplomatic about these things.

The Igbo's need to learn the art of diplomacy. They should learn how to give power in order to keep power. The Fulani people should provide a good example of this. The Fulani are a seperate people from the Hausa, yet they live as one of them, speak their language, whilst still controlling the power-structure of Hausa society. This is diplomacy at it's finest. The Fulanis have conquered lands throughout West Africa and up to present day Sudan and have experience in these matters. The Igbo's are not ready to lead an Empire at this stage with their gra-gra ways. If Igbo's present a valid, diplomatic and organised front, within 100 years, the whole of Southern Nigeria will acquiesce to Igbo rule.

Another mindless quote from Osisi:


BTW why are you talking of PH?
Ijaws should be talking of Bonny not PH
You folks are now a minority in Rivers state,most of you folks are in Bayelsa so you don't have any more claim to PH than an Owerri man.
It's not his state,neither is it yours.


I thought you also said Bonny was an Igbo land?

Don't worry, we will soon jump into the sea for you.

Anofia!

Quote from Osisi:

Older Igbo men  said that the picture of a typical Ijaw man and the riverine Igbos before the war was that a lazy labourer who drank kai kai from morning till night.
They were afraid of real work
Igbos did not take their jobs, they were simply allergic to work.
No wonder the thought of stolen goods from their more affluent,more hardworking cousins was to enticing to pass up.

So Ibime,Igbos did not take your jobs,the same things your youths are doing today,wanting to be paid for doing no work didn't start today.It started with your fathers back then.
You have to get your hands dirty to eat.
Your fore fathers may have traded in perm kennels and slaves but their offsprings sat around bearing funny names and waiting for handouts.
Who in their right minds will name a Child Goodhead and Blue Jaja?


More imperialist claptrap. Igbos implemented a public works scheme in PH, brought their Igbo brothers to work it, then claim the locals are lazy. Historically, Ijaws are known as stalwarts of trade. It is funny that as soon as the Eastern Region shifted to Enugu's hands, we suddenly became 'lazy' - a convenient excuse often used against marginalised people.

Ijaws have been going to school before the Igbo's. For them to stigmatise us as 'lazy' is laughable. For them to promote their less qualified brothers over us in our own city is criminal.

They almost completed the Igbolisation of PH but they did not succeed. PH is now firmly out of Igbo hands, not thanks to Federal Government, but this is the decision of PH indigenes.

Hehehehe. . . . tory don burst. . . . I will leave you guys to discuss my points amongst yourselves and catch you guys tomorrow. . . .

Igbos need to learn the history of Rivers State before coming to claim any and everything that sounds Igbo.

Michael Okpara was the worst thing that ever happened to Eastern Region. If only the Premiership of Eastern region had gone to a Calabar man like one of the Ita's, Eastern Nigeria would be united today.

This problem started from Enugu. They renamed everything in PH with Igbo names. A well known relative of mine founded the Rivers State College of Technology or whatever its called now. He invited a Mr Mbonu to be a director of the school. When the papers went to Enugu for them to classify the name of the road, they chose to rename the road Mbonu Street instead of my relative's name. Mbonu Street is in present day D-Line.

This is a scene that was replicated ALL OVER PH. The same goes for the whole Rumu/Umu debate.

You cannot ask why Rivers State people are wary of Igbo people with behaviour like this. The stealing of Igbo lands after the war is not justified, but some would call it a retribution of sorts.

Igbos love to claim everything in Rivers State. Do the Igbo's know the history of the Oba and Ekpeya people of Ahoada? They are people who migrated from Benin after falling out with the Oba. Today they have merged the language of trade (Igbo) with their native language and the Igbo lay claim to them. If you see an Ahoada man, ask him about his history. Ahoada today lies between core Igbo lands and Etche and Ikwerre lands. Any presumption that lands further South than Ahoada must have Igbo ancestry should be put in perspective when we consider the Ahoada example.

My father used to do missionary work in Ihugbogo in Ahoada land and I tell you, the poverty and backwardness there is complete! You will never find such depravity in any Igbo land. The same goes for Etche. The poverty I saw with my 2 eyes in these 2 places can only be compared to the poverty I saw in Ogoni land. If the Eastern Regional Government saw these people as their Igbo brothers, I assure you they would not overlook their miserable plight. Instead they are too busy trying to lay claim to Ikwerres in PH, neglecting all the Igbo groups that lie closer to the core Igbo lands.

We are not fooled.

Igbos need to investigate the history of all these Igboid peoples before claiming them. As I have said before, Igbo was the dominant language of trade and has made its way into the languages of many tribes. There is a tribe up the Imo River called the Ndoki. This tribe are widely presumed to be Igbos. They speak Igbo and have adopted Igbo customs. The truth is that they are Ijaws who travelled up the river looking for freshwater to farm as you cannot farm in saltwater land. When they found the place, they named it "Ndokiari" which means "this is what were looking for" in Ijaw language. Today these people live as Igbos, but if you question them deeply, they will tell you they are Ijaws.

The same holds for most of the Igbo tribes in Rivers State. Ikwerres do not have a recorded history, but they are ADAMANT that they are not Igbos, although they speak a dialect of the 'language of trade' and observe some Igbo customs.

The people of the South South are no fools and resent Igbo incursion into their lands, whether they be Ikwerre, Etche, Rebisi or Ijaw.

We were put together as the Eastern Region, but some from within us decided to pursue a tribalist agenda, renaming our towns and roads, using the Eastern bank ACB as a conduit for tribal 'projects' and claiming everything within sight in the hope that they would one day reach the sea. We had no such problems when we were administered from Calabar.

Me, I don talk my own. The stories that my elders told me are what you are hearing now. My elders are no illiterates, but a Royal family who were involved in governing PH and Rivers State. If you consider it a prejudice, then hopefully this prejudice would go some way to explaining why Rivers State was divided over the Biafra issue. If Igbos are interested in unity, then they must address these long-held grouses to do with their mismanagement of the former Eastern Region and their imperialistic attitude to their former trade-partners.

naijaking1:
All those Amechis, Nwaches or Wuches, Odilis are Igbos and they know it.

I am not concerned if Ikwerres are Igbos or not. However they resented Nnewi, Imo, Anambra people FLOODING to PH to take their jobs whilst they sit idly by, wallowing in unemployment. At that time, you did not have a need to remember their "igboness" did you? Now when you have no foothold in PH, you use them as proxies to stake claim of ownership, although they have no wish to be associated as Igbos.

BTW, since you must insist on this dismissive attitude toward Rivers State people, I must remind you that Odili is an Ndoni man and not an Ikwerre man. Osisi has already made that mistake earlier.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=239392.msg3515370#msg3515370 date=1235590107]Are we now to trump style over substance? Indeed Palin has got the style, but Jindall has got far more substance.[/quote]This is claptrap. Palin is an uneducated blithering buffoon with no style or poise. Jindal has more style in his left toe than Palin has in her whole body. If Jindal can wilt in the presence of Obama, I can only imagine that Palin would implode, just like she did in the presence of common Kathy Couric.

asha 80:
Was PH not in the former eastern region  

Osisi said she doesn't know what I call Igbolizing as if PH was not in the Eastern Region. Eastern is a Geographical expression and has nothing to do with "Igbolising". Should every Eastern city expect to be Igbolised?

I also wonder if Osisi would answer whether after Okpara built Trans-Amadi, Presidential etc (with Niger Delta oil money), did he staff all these fanciful places with indigenous Ikwerre and Ijaw people? This is what we can call economic annexation, a keynesian stimulus for Igbos, or even an artificial repopulation of PH which even the so-called Ikwerre-Igbos resisted. After shifting PH demographics to the point that PH starts to look like Onitsha, crowding out Indigenous money in the market place and increasing competition (and prices) for goods, property, jobs and services, would you not expect some resentment from the indigenes?

[quote author=**osisi link=topic=239065.msg3520299#msg3520299 date=1235680412]and I don't know what you call Igbolizing.
PH was in the Eastern region.
PH was an eastern town
Ijaws were easterners together with Igbos and efiks until yesterday.[/quote]This is more Igbo imperialistic attitude showing itself.

I thought you guys claimed Ikwerres were Igbos. Why then would they feel the need to steal Igbo properties?

naijaking1:
You're so ignorant of Eastern Nigeria counties and the re-drawing of the maps to "weaken the Igbos" as Umaru Dikko called it. I have told you that anypart could have been carved out of Igboland by the Justice Nasir commission. The Igbos in Rivers in 1960 saw themselves as no different from the Igbos in Aba or Owerri, so when you say that the Igboid tribes in Rivers rejected Biafran effort--- I say there you go again with another big fat lie

Can you then explain why the Ikwerres did not support the war effort?

Until you address this question, there is no need pointing fingers at Ijaws.


If there's anything you should take from this thread, it should be this:


(1.) Ijaws and the tribes of Rivers State are sympathetic to the Biafran cause, but any secession movement must be done in consultation and agreement.

(2.) There can only be consultation and agreement when Igbo's drop their imperialistic and dismissive tendencies. This includes:

(a.) Claiming Opobo as Igbo land (the most laughable of all)

(b.) Claiming the whole of Igwe Ocha (PH) as Igbo land when half of it belongs to the Okrikas

(c.) Not respecting the rights of the Ikwerre's to determine their own identity

(d.) Igbolising the whole of PH during the Eastern Regional Government to the chagrin and resentment of PH indigenes (including the Igbo speaking ones)

(e.) And many more ([size=5pt]including inability to differentiate between Ogonis and Ijaws[/size]).

ow11:
They still have that demeaning behaviour when they try to prove that everything east of R. Niger is Igbo. Until they realise we are all equal partners, any alliance will end up like the Biafran saga.

True talk!

naijaking1:
For someone talking about unity, refusing to explain why the Ijaw people made untainable demand on other eastern Nigerians on the verge of the civil war; because "I was just too young" your sarcasm about Ijaws/Biafra/Igbos just doesn't help.

Lighten up brother. . . . the mistake Biafra made in trying to annexe the Midwest is the same mistake they made in the South-South. They ASSUMED that we wanted a war, even without consultation. Diplomacy in Igbo land has a long way to go. You keep asking why Ijaws betrayed their brothers - what betrayal, if we didn't agree to go to to war together in the first place?

Before asking Ijaws why they betrayed you, you should ask your FELLOW IGBOIDS why they didn't go to war with you - Ikwerres, Etches, Ahoadas, Ndonis. If you cannot get your own brothers on your side, that means Ijaws can be apportioned no blame. And if PH was against you, why was PH one of the last cities to fall? Surely, if the people were on Nigerias side, PH would have fallen before Onitsha and Awka. The truth is, the people were just civilians, not interested in fighting a war for either side.

That your fellow Igbo-speaking tribes in Rivers State did not back the war PROVES that the problem was not a betrayal by the Ijaw, but a lack of tact and diplomacy by the Igbo's. You fail to take into account the resentment felt in Rivers State toward the Igbo from their time as leaders of the South-East region. This was the sole reason why the WHOLE of Rivers State, including Igboids did not support the war. Maybe they already had a taste of Igbo rule and didn't like it.

Before any nation goes to war, it must consult its allies and make sure they are on-side. Simple!

bawomolo:
Did the secession plan include taking over the Midwestern region?

Haven't you heard that the Midwest is part of Biafra? Ijaws live there so they are compelled to want to join their brothers in war, even without consultation.

[quote author=~Sauron~ link=topic=239065.msg3519978#msg3519978 date=1235675143]Go and learn your geography, abeg.[/quote]Geography will not help you draw distinction between Ogoni's and Ijaws.

The Ogoni's land is ensconced within Ijaw land.

About 130 years ago, a people (Ogoni's) travelled up the Atlantic coast fleeing persecution from Ghana (as is widely assumed). The benevolent ( ) people of Opobo allowed them to settle in virgin bush between Opobo and Okrika. Till today, the Ogoni people remain the only non-Ijaws living in traditional Ijaw land. They are often classed as Ijaws, as they are surrounded on all sides by Ijaws, but they have a seperate language, culture and identity, not found anywhere else in Nigeria.

[quote author=St.Funmi link=topic=239065.msg3519949#msg3519949 date=1235674559]I'm confused. Are ogonis not Ijaws? [/quote]How can Ogoni's be Ijaws?

Becomrrich:
like I said, we were careful with bayelsa state till we got an email from an ijaw group requesting to be part of Benin republic. And we are willing to allow the United nation to conduct a poll in ijaw land to see if the Ijaw people would want to remain in Nigeria or join the republic of benin.

[size=14pt]ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!![/size]

This is the funniest shit I heard in years!