₦airaland Forum

gbrookes02: All that mean is that God in His God nature can't die, but you still have not explain why can't God enter into His creation take on mortal human flesh in addition to His God nature have His human nature to die but His God nature not to die which will not in anyway violate Numbers 23:19 because as far as where His God nature is concern He never died? Why can't it happened? What prevents Him from doing such?

gbrookes02: If the Holy Spirit is God, why didn't he know the time of Christ's return?


Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32
1."But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone," (Matt. 24:36).
2."But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone," (Mark 13:32).

There are two possible answers here. First, Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9) and during His ministry in Jerusalem, He was cooperating with the limitations of being a man. As a man, Jesus walked and talked. As God He was worshipped (Matt. 14:33; 28:9; Heb. 1:6), prayed to (Zech. 13:9; 1 Cor. 1:2), etc. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

Since he was operating as a man, under the law (Gal. 4:4), it might very well be that Jesus was referencing the Father as the proper sovereign as only as a good Jew would have done.

Second, cultural context is very important. This passage is about Jesus' return which included getting the bride, the church and then the wedding feast would occur.


"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready,8 And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 And he *said to me, "Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb," (Rev. 19:7-9).

If we were to look at the cultural context, we can get a much better understanding of what was Jesus may have been alluding to when he said that only the Father knows.

In that historical and cultural context when a man was going to marry a woman, it was usually prearranged. The bridegroom would be living with his family and he would begin to build an addition onto his father's house where he and his future wife would live. It was the custom for the father of the home to be the one who designated when the addition was finished. This meant that only the father knew when the son would be told to go get the bride. But, does this mean that the son would not know when he had to go to get the bride? Not necessarily, and this is why.

A wedding was a community affair where many many people would be invited. This required advance notice so that people could allot the necessary time to attend the wedding and wedding feast. This means that some would have to put their animals away for the day, not work in the field that day, not have business dealings that day, et cetera. In a culture where there is no Internet, phone, or radio, things were done well in advance so that people could plan ahead.

Furthermore, a wedding feast also meant that large amounts of food would have to be prepared in order for all the guests to have something to eat. These kinds of arrangements were not done on the spur of the moment. The arrangements were done weeks, sometimes months in advance. Therefore, to alleviate anyone missing the wedding feast due to a spontaneous invitation that they could not attend, arrangements were made well in advance.

But, in order to maintain the respect and dignity of the father's place in the home, it would naturally be said "that only the father knows" when it would be time for the son to go get the bride. This did not necessitate that the son did not know because the community would have to know within a reasonable degree of accuracy when the wedding would occur. Therefore, Jesus may have been alluding to the phraseology housed in the wedding and wedding feast culture that did not necessarily mean he did not know or the Holy Spirit did not know the time of his return.

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/if-holy-spirit-god-why-didnt-he-know-time-christs-return


Does Jesus now know when he is coming back? Or is this still only God's knowledge as stated in Matt. 24:36 and Mark 13:32?


Thanks for your question. I think it’s a good one, and a very important one to answer correctly, especially in the light of some current false teaching, which claims that even God doesn't know all things in the future.

The critical issue, I think, is this: If Jesus is fully God as well as fully human, then how is it that He can be ignorant of anything, since God is omniscient or all-knowing? One might conclude that Jesus did not know all at the time of His birth, and during His childhood. I find the translation of Luke 2:40 in the NET Bible insightful, for it reads:


40 And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom, and the favor of God was upon him.


Later on in Luke chapter 2 we read,

Luke 2:46-47


46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Jesus were astonished at his understanding and his answers.


This translation avoids the suggestion that Jesus was not all-knowing. The question you have raised is a bit different: "Are there things that God the Father knows, but of which the Son is ignorant?" I found this answer from the Bible Knowledge Commentary (on Matthew 24:36) less than satisfactory:


"The precise moment of the Lord’s return cannot be calculated by anyone. When the Lord spoke these words, that information was said to be known by only the Father. Christ was obviously speaking from the vantage of His human knowledge (cf. Luke 2:52), not from the standpoint of His divine omniscience." [Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.]


The same explanation is given for Mark 13:32:


"This openly expressed limitation on Jesus' knowledge affirms His humanity. In His Incarnation Jesus voluntarily accepted human limitations, including this one (cf. Acts 1:7), in submission to the Father’s will (cf. John 4:34)."[Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.]


If you find this explanation satisfactory, then you need not look further. I find the explanation somewhat less than compelling. It suggests that Jesus is somehow a divided person, with a human side and with a divine side. In the New Testament I see Him as one person, both divine and human. How, then, can we say that Jesus knew the day and hour on his divine side, but not on his human side? Too many times in the New Testament we read of Jesus "knowing" things that only God could know (See John 6:64; Matthew 12:25; Luke 6:8; 11:17).

In context of Matthew's gospel, the Lord's disciples were taken with the splendor of the temple (24:1), but Jesus told them, in effect, not to get too attached to them, because they would all be destroyed (24:2). The disciples then asked Jesus to tell them when these things would happen, and when the end of the age would come (24:3). Jesus did not shrug His shoulders and say, "I don’t know." Instead, Jesus gave many details concerning the last times (24:4ff.). Jesus did not want His disciples to be ignorant of the last times, either, lest they be deceived. While Jesus did not reveal the precise time of His return to His disciples, He did make it clear (not just here, but elsewhere in the gospels and Acts 1) that the end would not come immediately. He described many of the signs that would precede His return to the earth. If the disciples of our Lord listened carefully to the words of the Master, they would know the "season" of His coming. My point in all of this is that if Jesus was ignorant (in the dark) about the end times, how could He be so specific in giving so many details? The point of His teaching in Matthew 24 was to "be ready." Because they did not to know the precise time of the Lord's return they were to be watchful and attentive.

The specific day of His return was not made known to the apostles, nor to the angels. The wise servant is the one who is watching for the Master's return, and who is working for his Master when He returns.

In what sense, then, does the Son not "know" about the "hour" of the Lord's return? In the Gospel of John, Jesus repeatedly states that He will not act independently of the Father. As in His temptation, Jesus refuses to act independently of the Father. This is a part of His submission to the Father (see, for example, John 8:28; 12:49-50; 14:31). Jesus speaks and acts only as the Father has directed and instructed Him.

Now let us consider the term rendered "know" in Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32. In the Septuagint -- the Greek translation of the Old Testament -- the same Greek word oida is used to translate the Hebrew word for "know" in Genesis 18:19:

Genesis 18:19


19 "I have chosen [literally "known"] him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just. Then the Lord will give to Abraham what he promised him."


In Jeremiah 1:5 God's choice of Jeremiah while still in the womb is described by the same Hebrew word for "know," although the Greek word used in the Septuagint is different than oida.

One may also wish to consider the use of oida in Matthew 25:12:

Matthew 25:12


12 But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I do not know you!' The NET Bible


Surely this means something more like, "You are not one of my guests" (i.e. you are not one of my chosen guests), rather than, "I don't have any idea who you are, I've never seen or heard of you before."

It is my opinion that Jesus is using this word "to know" in two different ways in Matthew and Mark. Jesus is saying, on the one hand, that His disciples cannot, should not, and will not "know" the precise day or hour of His coming. On the other hand, Jesus is using the same word (to know) with reference to His submission to the Father in regard to the timing of His return. He is saying, I believe, "It is not my place as the Son to determine or to announce the time of my coming " that is an aspect of My Father's role in the Trinity, as the Father." The bottom line is that the disciples have a fixation on knowing the exact time of our Lord's return. Jesus is saying, in effect, "It is none of your business, and in a sense it is not mine to tell you, either. I will come when it is the Father's time for Me to come. For me to announce the time of my coming in advance is to steal the Father's thunder." It is not that He does not know, or cannot know this day, but that this is not consistent with His role as the Son.

I am sure that some may differ with me on this explanation, but I find it within the boundaries of the use of the term, and within the boundaries of biblical theology.

I think that it is dangerous to conclude that God knows something that the Son does not, when both are God, and both are omniscient.

http://bible.org/question/does-jesus-now-know-when-he-coming-back-or-still-only-gods-knowledge-stated-matt-2436-and-m

gbrookes02: Upon further research of Zechariah 12:10 I must say that you are correct, and I am wrong.

HumbledbYGrace: I don't really care his birthdate I will celebrate it weneva it pleases me.

Sha I asked u if we would hv been saved if christ was never born stop acting like a child.The topic is bwt Christmas not Death.

*as I continue to climb mount EVEREST alone*

gbrookes02: A father and his son are equal as touching their human nature but the son is subordinate to his father in authority and role where the family is concern.
The Holy Spirit as God knows everything Jesus said only The Father knows because in the context of the discussion the conversation it was about Him and The Father only so in context of the discussion about Him and The Father only, in relation to Jesus only, as far as where His human nature is concern, only The Father who is God knows. You have to go with the context of the discussion. He did not forgot The Spirit, The Spirit was not apart of the discussion so there was no need to mention The Spirit plain and simple. Context, Context, Context.

gbrookes02: A better translation of the hebrew of Isaiah 9:6 is (Young's Literal Translation) "For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace." Jesus is call "Father of Eternity" which is a hebrew idiom for saying that Jesus is eternal.

In Zechariah 12:1 Yahweh is speaking and Yahweh say concerning His scond coming in verse 10 "They will look on me, the one they have pierced", Revelation 1:7 (New International Version) "Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen."
If Yahweh here is not Jesus then explain how that is not so.

So frosbel, you now believe in more than one god, The Father is a god and The Son is a god, Since The Father called Jesus God does that mean Jesus is truly God? Satan is a false god.

gbrookes02: Jesus didn't receive revelation from The Father because He didn't know everthing. He received it to give to His servants showing that in The Trinity He subordinate as The Son to The Father read the passage properly.

gbrookes02: You still have not explained why can't The Almighty enter into His creation, and take on a human nature, and become a man or be made a man, and die as far as where His human nature is concerned? Why? why? Why? What prevents the Almighty from do just that?

Jesus as far as where His human nature is concern did not know everything including the time of His return. But in His God nature as God He knew everything including the time of His return

gbrookes02: Go to page 9 at 4:05pm On Oct 10, and you will see where I address the meaning of one flesh. Adam was before Eve, and in authority he was greater than Eve.

HumbledbYGrace: would there be death if birth was never there?

gbrookes02: If everything that was created and made were all created and made by Jesus then how could Jesus have being created unless He created Himself which is nonsense, Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3?

If Jesus is not God then what is the name that Matthew 28:19 speak of, and how do you explain 2 Peter 1:1 (New International Version) "Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours", and Titus 2:13 (New International Version) "while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"?

Why can't The Almighty enter into His creation and take on a human nature, and become a man or be made a man? Why? why? Why?

Jesus as far as where His human nature is concern did not know everything including the time of His return. But in His God nature as God He knew everything including the time of His return.

gbrookes02: ADAM + EVE = 1 flesh.

Why something so simple is so hard for you all antitrinitarians to understand.

gbrookes02: When you check out the greek it doesn't say Jesus was begotten. And remember as a human being He was begotten, and in the image of God. But as for His God nature He was, and is God.

OLAADEGBU: See objection 7 addressed above.

Goshen360: No beef brother. You and I are cool even when we disagree. Okay. Let me shed most assignment at hand. We will enter a debate and start a thread in coming week. Let's leave this thread to be focus on his discourse, okay. Thank you.

Goshen360: You guys think it's because I believe in the Trinity teaching that is why I made such statement? You hatred for Trinity teaching is making you accuse someone wrongly. The next step we will go into is a debate of "Jesus being created by God" which is the basis of what I attacked and made my statement. In order not to get involved in two many things at a time, I will start a thread and invite you all to the debate if Jesus was created or exist eternally with the Father since you guys are probably not getting the point am addressing.

TroGunn: I'm only just pointing out the lack of coherence in the pagan-derived Trinity teaching. I don't believe it because it doesn't make sense.

Goshen360: This thread, simply put is to address who Jesus is. Is he just an ordinary man or is he God or is he God that became man and hence makes him both God and man? Let me begin by calling witnesses to the court room.

Here are the witnesses in/from the scriptures:

The Father. By the Father, I meant God the Father. The Father himself calls Jesus who is the Son God and it witnessed from Hebrews 1:8,

New International Version (©1984)
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.


Okay. The Father who is God calls the Son God right. This is the first witness. To do justice, the Son also calls the Father God. and says the Father is greater than him. Let's hear from the witness of the Son,

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17.

Okay. The Father calls the Son God and the Son calls the Father God or "my God". Does that mean the son is NO God? Certain not! If we are fighting Trinity, let's be straight forward to fight Trinity and if we are attacking the deity of Christ as God, let simply do that. Now, in the face of these TWO witnesses (The Father himself and The Son), Can we say Jesus is God and the Father is also God?

@ Ijawkid, Frosbel and Truthislight,

Do you agree (or believe) that Jesus is God. By "Jesus is God", I meant Jesus NOT the Father but still God according to the scriptures. I will like each of you (Ijawkid, Frosbel and Truthislight) to answer same question personally on your separate response. Thank you.

TroGunn: Not according to your creed : "The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord".

From you creed, your Trinity is 1Person/God/Lord/unlimited/Almighty/etc + 1Person/God/Lord/unlimited/Almighty/etc + 1Person/God/Lord/unlimited/Almighty/etc = 1God/Lord/unlimited/Almighty/etc.

italo: Firstly, I am done with this argument since you have already agreed that Jesus is God.

The only other thing I will do is to play the music for you to do your circular dance and logical acrobatics for our entertainment.

What is the difference between "God" (as it is used in the Bible), "god" (as it is used in the Bible) and "A God" (which I have never seen in the Bible, you formulated that).

And which of the three is Jesus Christ. God, god or "A God?"

Where did the Bible ever refer to Angels as "Gods" (with a capital 'G')?

italo: Firstly, I am done with this argument since you have already agreed that Jesus is God.

The only other thing I will do is to play the music for you to do your circular dance and logical acrobatics for our entertainment.

What is the difference between "God" (as it is used in the Bible), "god" (as it is used in the Bible) and "A God" (which I have never seen in the Bible, you formulated that).

And which of the three is Jesus Christ. God, god or "A God?"

Where did the Bible ever refer to Angels as "Gods" (with a capital 'G')?

frosbel: I suggest that to support our position, we should qualify GOD as Almighty GOD , Yahweh or Jehovah, otherwise these chaps will keep playing with words while making no valid point.

italo: Trinitarians say that The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE God.

So-called Unitarians say that The Son is "a God" (The Mighty God); and The Father is another God (The Almighty God). That makes 2 Gods. Then they turn around and say The Lord is ONE. *Hello, but you say there are 2 Gods - The Mighty God and The Almighty God*.

On seeing their inconsistency, they shamelessly accuse Trinitarians of believing in 3 Gods - even though Trinitarians say There are three persons in ONE GOD. They do this just to throw up confusion.

Ihedinobi: Point of correction, sis, this thread is not particularly focused on the Trinity. However, you have made a point I want to address. There is a heterodoxy that is fine. For instance, I don't care to go to church on Sundays, I meet with fellow believers and powwow maybe on Wednesdays or Fridays. (I don't mean me o, I do the Sunday routine more often than not.) There is no antiChristianity in that. It may be that the nature of my job does not allow meeting on Sundays or that the political atmosphere makes Sunday meetings impossible. Whatever it may be, the day of the week on which I break bread with my family is a matter of personal, say, convenience.

But there is another heterodoxy that is heresy and antiChrist. That which attacks the nature or foundation of Christianity itself is what I mean. Strictly speaking then, if the Trinity is the foundation of Christianity, then it is impossible either to accept it and be an unbeliever or reject it and be a believer. Neither of this means that the believer or unbeliever necessarily understands it to be either.

This is Christianity: Jesus is Lord, by which we mean, Jesus is God. That immediately lands anyone who believes it in the Trinity whether they understand it or not. If anyone rejects it, they reject the Trinity.

Why bother pursuing a discussion such as this then? It is because our growth in the Faith is growth in mental or intellectual appreciation of God, Who and What He is. A lot of us who do not fully appreciate Him intellectually are rendered very ineffective in many areas of our lives for God. So those who do, must help prod these ones on to greater understanding. Which is what they do engaging those who attack the doctrine. Also, it is for those who attack the doctrine because they may actually be true Christians who are reaching for greater understanding. How they react to what they are told proves whether or not there is really Christ in them. Increasing hardness of heart and stubborn refusal to learn is evidenced by deteriorating arguments. At a certain point, it becomes a "believe or die" situation and if the person is utterly under the influence of the spirit of antichrist, they start to break Scriptures. At that point, no further argument is useful to him. But since this is a public domain, further argument can serve to warn others of what happens when they claim Christianity and reject the Lordship or Godhood of its Christ.

Thus, it is not a "to your tents, O Israel" matter.

Edited

Enigma: You know, I've just remembered another thing!

Since God The Father Himself referred to Jesus as "O God" ----- will we say that god The Father Himself is also guilty of apostasy?

Enigma: Well Jesus is called all these things in the book of Revelation: "The Almighty"; "The Alpha and Omega"; "The First and Last"; "The Beginning and The End".

frosbel: Yesterday I went to see my sister , She and her SON were so so happy to hear the truth.

He told me he was almost totally confused with the 3 god theology and could not make any sense of it, sounded more like nonsense, my sister who was once a trinitarian and a lawyer by the way, saw the logic and reasoning behind the one God theology based on scripture after 1 hour of discussion.

If a little boy can hear the scriptures , analyse them and agree with Jesus that GOD is ONE , then I am fine, who cares about old men who are hardended in their deceit.

My mission is to spread this far and wide to all and sundry both here in the UK and Nigeria.

God is ONE.

The time is at hand for the deceivers , to expose them and their deceitful works.

Enigma: You see why I don't waste time with you?

Well, I will let this one go but I have warned you that if you direct certain insults at me i will send you to people in your family much older than you.

In any event; yes Yahweh is translated as Lord. It was even translated as Lord over 2000 years ago in The Septuagint.

Enigma: Sorry, I'm not interested.

Whenever I make a post, if you have a counter argument then table it.

The different viewpoints will be there for all to see

frosbel: As we expect of Liars they have no shame.

God is ONE , is a fundamental principle of scripture.

That the apostles thought Jesus was GOD is absolutely untrue and borders on deceit.

But then again , what is new, for many deceivers are gone out into the world

Enigma: The fact that Jesus shares several "titles" with The Father is enough to tell us that He Jesus also is God.

Just take a few examples of Jesus' titles: "The Almighty"; "Alpha and Omega"; "The First and Last"; "The Beginning and The End"; "Mighty God"; "Everlasting Father".

Y'all will have to indulge me but these just remind me of words from a favourite hymn

.