₦airaland Forum

Zikkyy: The apostles were too busy to consider such celebrations. You want to compare them to modern day pimping pastors? The early Christians could have been worse if given the opportunity. You forgot they were getting drunk anytime they come together to eat (some were eating alone self). If the apostles had allowed them to celebrate (xmas style), those guys would have gone gaga. If not for the hard work of the apostles, Christianity would not have gone beyond the first century. Those guys try sha, they built a good foundation.



am not sure it's everything found in saturlania. You can say the celebration been corrupted, yes that's true but xmas is not completely bad there is something good about it. The idea of a feast is not bad, because peeps must chop. God's people have been feasting for a long time. The idea of sharing and giving is not bad either. That would be pleasing to Jesus. Maybe it can still be salvaged but don't think that will happen.



I disagree with the bold i need the holiday jor. Thank God we don't have people like you in Government

Hahahahahahahahaha........

U too like enjoyment....lol.....

But I'll love if u use google to search out saturlania and christmas in general...

You could use wikipedea too....


Try to really know what you are engaging in....

Christmas its not worth it......

bermuda1: Ave Totorepairer

Hahahahahahahah....

What is this??....

Nairaland oooo....

italo: what is the Christian way of handling marriage?

And how are Christians following the world's way of doing it?

Na my mouth u wan hear am??

You don marry??or u wan marry??.....lol

italo: You LIE!

Where did you get that definition of El Gibbohr from? Did you just formulate it or did you get it from another person who just formulated it? Give us your source or proof.

El Gibbohr means Mighty God, as all the Bible translators agree. Simple as that.

How I go take formulate that kin thing na??

Don't u do research??

Go and read a hebrew and greek bible....

Besides is ""mighty "" and ""almighty "" one and the same thing??

My bro you need to be doing more of bible research and stop bowing down to mary....(Just being sarcastic)....:-)...

Lol....

italo: Yes. God commanded the israelites to make "IDOLS" as you have been calling them all along.

Hahahahaha.....

They aint idols because God himself gave them the commandment...

Now that's what you should have known.....

Besides that ark was always kept in the holy holies........

Now my question for you....

Who commanded you and your colleagues to make an image of mary and bow down to it...

Please I need your answers.....

Where is the verdict in the bible that we should make an image of mary and pray through it??

Goshen360: You guys are going round in circle......Is Jesus called Mighty God or NOT? If Yes, then who is Frosbel to say he is NOT God. Of course Jesus said, The Father is greater than him and the head of Christ is God. This doesn't take away the fact of him being God. That Father is greater than him as it relates to office and works. When people like Frosbel make statement such as Jesus is NOT God and when people like Ijawkid says he was created, then we need to read HOW AND WHEN he was created.

He is the 1st born of all creation......

He is also the image of the invincible Yahweh.....

Those terms apply to one who had a beginning....

Ok let us analyze christ being the "lst born"". Of all creation....

Explain what 1st born means....except 1st born has another explanation....

Zikkyy: Finally! If you had adopted this approach we won't be arguing. I like the bolded, and that's why i don't see anything wrong with the concept of anniversary (based on biblical teachings). The idea was hijacked and the actual practice did not align with biblical teachings; the reason i agree with you that xmas as practiced by the Saturn worshipers (including participating Christians) was of pagan nature.



@bolded, I agree.



Was hoping you will ignore this bit. na wa for you you are asking for confidential info i will tell you this much (afterall na me look for trouble );

Well...its nothing special. there is nothing like Christmas rice or chicken (i do that as a routine), no santa claus (being resident in Nigeria, it will be at your peril to have Santa sneak into your house), or any of those stuff you mentioned (not sure have seen any of them before, except the Christmas tree). Because i receive cards, i sometimes have them on display. I don't reject hampers either (that one is rare event these days thanks to the harsh economic condition ). I like Christmas holidays because it provides the opportunity for a quite time with my family (same with any other national holiday). a vacation is not a bad idea if i can get extended time out. I hope with this am off your list of saturnalia celebrants



Well.... he was the boss at the time. I still don't have issues with the concept; it just sad that it was hijacked.

Hahahahaha....u really funny my bro....

Thank you for telling me how u celebrate xmas.....I no go tell anybody..na just between me and u...:-).....

The real issue here is pleasing Jesus ahead of our own pleasure....

You could ask yourself:::

What would the apostles have done??how would the 1st century christians have viewed xmas??
Ofcus they didn't celebrate xmas...

Infact those christians who were Jews left all the jewish celebrations that went away with the death of Jesus....

Many even left the sabbath observance..

Circumcision also they forfeited.....

Christians can do better by abandoning anything that has nothing to do with Jesus...

We are followers of Christ,not followers of our pleasure or some religious leaders who pick out pagan rites all in the name of pleasing God.....

Now the truth is it will be great if you take your time to find out about the christmas tree,santa claus,the exchange of gifts etc that is associated with the xmas....you'll be surprised @ what you'll find.....

All the yeye pagan things that was found in saturlania is still the same things found in xmas.......

Asians love to celebrate xmas,but they don't even believe in Jesus....xmas has now turned out to be a secular holiday for many.....

The intent of the xmas has been watered down because in the 1st place Christ had no part in it...

So my bro you can avoid xmas......

But its up to you......

italo: What about the part of the verse that refers to Jesus as "Mighty God?"

The hebrew word translated mighty God is "" EL Gibbohr""

Meaning Jesus is a powerful spirit being who has being entrusted with rulership by The Father......

Besides Jesus wasn't reffered to in isaiah 9:6 as ""EL. Shaddai"" which means ""almighty God""

That title is reserved for Yahweh alone who is the God and Father over all....

Goshen360: Get Bible dictionary to define deity please. Of course we know there are false deity and True deity - The living God.

Deity doesn't just mean the living God alone......

The angels are deity's.....

Don't restrict the word deity ......

That word even from the bible does not have only one meaning...

Besides its an english word.....

Goshen360: Do you mind to show us WHERE and HOW Jesus was created. I/We will love to read such scriptures please.

He is the 1st born of all creation and also an image of God.....

All those are image of Yahweh are creations of Yahweh....

English Standard Version (©2001)
He is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn of all creation.


What do you understand from the word ""1st born of all creation""

Lets analyze that word......1st born.....

Who is a 1st born??

Remember Jesus is the 1st born in so many ways....

Goshen360: Can't you read all over the thread Frosbel saying Jesus isn't God



You know am biblically to twist scriptures. Show me the scriptures I have twisted and you can as well help us as the world is reading to better understand any scripture I used to refute Frosbel if am actually twisting scriptures.



Deity You can think of Eternal being. You can think and talk of one who all-knowing (omniscient). You can talk one the being who is all-powerful (omnipotent). Talk of the one who is has eternal existence. Talk of the one who is the is the Creator. Talk of the one who is Worshiped as the Living God, not as crafted image. Do you want more

Goshen see the definitions of deity...

de·i·ty
[dee-i-tee]

-n.,
1. a god or goddess.
2. divine character or nature, esp. that of the Supreme Being; divinity.
3. the estate or rank of a god: The king attained deity after his death.
4. a person or thing revered as a god or goddess: a society in which money is the only deity.
5. God; Supreme Being.


In terms of omiscience and omnipotence hope you know Jesus isn't either of them.....

I know you know.....

Only The Father is all powerful and all-knowing.....

You agree??

italo: Joshua 7:

6 Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the Lord, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads.

The isrealites having the ark of Yahweh in the 1st place,wasn't it Yahwehs command??

Let us start from there...

Did Yahweh command the isrealites to make the ark??

Goshen360: Yahweh CREATED Christ So Yahweh could not just create all thing unless Yahweh had to first create Jesus Christ. You will need this scriptures to explain Jesus being created......"Isaiah 9:6-"For unto us a child is born,...and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father...." Mighty God created Everlasting created

When Jesus in that isaiah is called everlasting Father you should know what it means........

It sure means Jesus is the last adam.....what adam should have become if he hadn't disobeyed Yahweh is what Jesus is now.....

Adam should have been our everlasting Father,but since he couldn't,Jesus who is the greater adam is now.....

Besides you should also know Jesus has a Father who is God over Him and over all........

So don't misunderstand the expression ""everlasting Father"" mentioned there in isaiah to be that Jesus never had a beginning...

Yahweh created Jesus...Jesus is the 1st of Yahwehs creative works and then Jesus became the agent through which Yahweh created all other things....

That's why we are brothers with Jesus....we all originated from 1 source...

And who is that??

YAHWEH the Father and God of all....

italo: @ Ijawkid,

So how are christians following the world's way of handling marriage?

And what is the Christian way of handling marriage?

U go soon begin pay me to answer question o......lol.......

Just try to observe those who are wedding around u....be observant..........

italo: Incase you didn't notice, the first question only needs a YES or NO. You can then go on to explain afterwards. From your answer, I cannot know exactly where you stand on the question. E.g was everything made for Jesus?

You didn't answer the second question, I wonder why. Let me ask again.

Were all things created in Jesus, through Jesus and for Jesus: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities.

Who is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end?

Yahweh is the ALPHA and OMEGA.......

U doubt??

and all things were created through Jesus....

Yahweh ofcus is not under the (all) things
......

I'll reiterate::::: Yahweh created Jesus while Jesus was used as Yahwehs agent to create all other things...

Got it??

Zikkyy: Okay.



Is this why you believe xmas is pagan? because the concept was poorly implemented? if the issue is with the implementation, i will agree with you.



which one be 'you guys' na? i gat this feeling that i have been added to your list of Saturn worshipers i don't know how you arrive at such conclusion without first finding out how i celebrate my xmas



Lol! okay. i agree with you.



I will tell you. you know i don't avoid questions

Yes it's possible i will still be celebrating Christmas. I don't need the pope to tell me what to or not to do. I can read the bible. Also consider this; what if i decide on my own to celebrate Christ birth on specific date every year by dedicating that day to giving thanks to God. You know, an all day event. would that be pagan? and if yes, why? please tell me...



It's not a trap. You guys came up with the theory that if a practice is not recorded in the bible, it's a sin (even when the bible itself did not say that). I just needed to understand your basis for classifying non-biblical practices. Even though i don't share your approach to determining what is pagan and what is of God, i believe there should be consistency in approach (no element of bias or sentiment). I believe you can answer my question now



what if the wedding was performed by a sango high priest? What if a born again saturn worshiper decides to celebrate his marriage the saturnalia way?



@bolded.....are you saying marriage irrespective of the form it is celebrated (whether performed at Okija shrine, muslim wedding, Hindu wedding e.t.c) is not pagan?

Oh and as regards marraige,why should I adopt or attend a maRraige that a sango priest is officiating??

Then I'll be mixing up with paganism......

A christian who's got good bible foundation ofcus won't adopt a marraige pattern that has got the saturlania spirit behind it.......

That's why I say one who is really a bible student should know how to make the right decisions as regards festivities and rites.......

And if u notice today many persons are even adopting the worlds pattern of handling marraige....christians should be meticulous so as not to be fashioned after the world....:-)...

And please tell me how u celebrate your christmas??

And for your info the pope was the one who stamped december 25th as the xmas date and that's what all professed christians catholics and non-catholics are commemorating till date....

How do u like that??

italo: Joshua 6:8:
And just as Joshua had commanded the people, the seven priests bearing the seven trumpets of rams' horns before the Lord went forward, blowing the trumpets, with the ark of the covenant of the Lord following them.

And what's your point my dear brother italo??

italo: @ Frosbel and Ijawkid. Let me ask you a few simple questions that pertain to what we are discussing:

Were all things created in Jesus, through Jesus and for Jesus: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities.

Who is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end?"

Jesus is the 1st of Yahwehs creative work....while Jesus became Yahwehs agent through which all other things and persons were created.....

U doubt??......

Zikkyy: Don't change the subject. You accused xmas celebrants of organizing a feast that appears to be a replica of saturlania, all i did was show that being a replica is not an issue. you avoided that and when on to prove that burnt offering was command (as if we are arguing that burnt offering is not a command) .

I still don't understand your case with xmas. You stated that it is not in the bible and therefore a sin (or pagan practice). If that's the case i requested for your thoughts on some other non-biblical practices like African traditional marriage rites, you fired blank You also stated that you have issues with the date being same day as some other pagan feast, which is fine. I have asked for what you consider a 'more' Christian date, you ignored that one as well. Am beginning to think you have personal issues with the chaps that came up with the idea of celebrating xmas

There isn't any christian date....

Leave the xmas alone....it doesn't add any thing to christianity rather it has brought shame and reproach upon Jesus........you guys have submerged Jesus into the saturnalia celebration....our master aint no pagan freak....

If the pope back then did not ratify dec 25th(snatched from pagans) as the birthday of Jesus and then instituted the festivity called christmas,would you be doing christmas today??please tell me......

and when you mean trado marraige what exactly are you trying to arrive at??


Is marraige a pagan celebration??

You this guy ehhh........

Let us face pagan festivities....marraige is not one of it....stay focused on the topic.....

obadiah777: I WAS ABOUT TO TILL I SAW THE ALUU4. I COME RECONSIDER. IF THE HUMANITY OF OUR PEOPLE DONE DEGENERATE TO THAT EXTENT, ITS BETTER I STAY HERE

Lmao......

Me I dey plan to even run sef....the country don craze finish......

What happened with those aluu guys has got me so worried for 9ja......

Zikkyy: Now you are accusing me of worshiping Saturn na wa o! just because i decided to celebrate on December 25th. So peeps born on December 25th are Saturnalia children abi? BTW what's this talk about replica? When the Jews were rendering burnt offering to the Almighty, some other peeps were also rendering their own burnt offering to Baal. Is that not a replica Hope you've not forgotten the challenge between Elijah and the prophets of Baal, did you observe any difference between the offerings or mode of preparation?



Okay, do you prefer we move it to mid-year when the sango worshipers celebrate or earlier to coincide with the feast for Ra, the sun god am sure there is a pagan party in-progress at any point in time. If you are not happy with my proposal, kindly suggest a 'Christian date'



Who told you?

When the isrealites offered up burnt offerings to Yahweh it was a straight instruction from Yahweh to them...

All the festivals and commemorations the isrealites did were lucid commands from Yahweh himself....

Sabbath
Festival of unfermented cakes
Passover celebration
Festival of pentecost...
Etc...

All were written down commands for the isrealites....

Don't u dare compare yourself with the Jews....the Jews never snatched any pagan holiday to please Yahweh with it...ofcus u know what happened whenever they did that..Yahwehs anger blazes on them....
Yahweh warned them not to near the baal worshippers talk less of snatching a date dedicated to baal,to worship Yahweh..

Now I want u to tell me how d christmas u do came about........is it biblical??is it a command from Jesus??or what??did the apostles do it??did 1st century christians ever celebrate xmas??

And I will tell you a million times that Jesus has no connection with christmas......absolutely no connection.....its all pagan...

OLAADEGBU: One more comment about Jesus. All cults deny that Jesus is God, the creator of the universe, in flesh. Various objections are raised saying that Jesus could not be God, otherwise, He would be praying to Himself, etc. Let's work with the analogy above, and continue with 'time' as our illustration.

Let's take 'present' and add to it human nature. Present, then, would have two natures: time and man. If 'present' were truly human then he would be able to communicate with us, tell us much, and we could see and touch him. But, because he is also 'time' by nature, he would be able to tell us both the past and the future as he manifested the 'time' nature within him. If 'present' then communicated with the past and the future, it would not mean he was communicating with himself, but with the distinctions known as the past and the future.

I know this is only an analogy, but I think it is a good, thorough, basic, illustration of God's nature as expressed in Trinitarian expression.

How is it possible that time knew his ""past"",knew his ""present"" but failed to know his ""future""??(Jesus doesn't know when the end will come[FUTURE])....

Ola stop mixing crazy science with scriptural truths...it only will land you in deep zhit......

obadiah777: THE SOONER YALL REALIZE YOU ARE IN HELL, THE MORE COMFORTABLE YOU WILL GET WITH YOUR SITUATION.

buzu boy come back to HELL.....come back Home.....lol....

leave oyibo people country come back to ya Father land...lol

plaetton: So all sunday worship christians are destined to hell?

The atheisst shall inherit the earth.!
Hurrah!

Lol.....I go die for laugh here.....

Make ona come carry me....lol...

italo: *rolling on the floor laughing*

Have you ever thought of going into comedy? Serious!

What did you say again?

Hehehehehe.....lol...

I be comedian o....

I thrill people with the scriptures......

Zikkyy: I don't understand the obsession with date here. It could have been any day. It could have been October 1, or May 29, and still will not change anything. I don't celebrate December 25th.



....and i have done my best to show you that the calender you rely on today is not from the apostles.



It's a national holiday. i guess i settled for the day every other person is having theirs. The more the merrier

the date is the issue because that date was adopted from pagans who celebrated the birthday of there God.....have u heard of the festivity called ""SATURNALIA""??

An exact replica of saturlania is the christmas you celebrate....

Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus...

Anything connected to our Lord must be written in the scriptures.....

You can do xmas,halloween and all the rest pagan holidays...you can even adopt the sallah days,but don't tag Jesus to it....

Jesus is not a pagan for crying out loud....

plappville: My dear look clearly at Ex 20:4 and also Ex 20:5. Images/Photos aren't idols. But images/photo or statues that you bow to and serve are idols, as seen in those pictures i posted.
Catholics bow to and revere the RCC statues and images. Catholics serve them by having processions and lighting candles to them.

We know that the coin that Jesus would have most likely used would have had the face of emperor Tiberius on it, who did rule during the time of Jesus' ministry.
The Jews used this coin still, They didnt disobey God because the coin contains the image. They would have if they had worshiped, bowed or sarved it llike the Catholics do today.

I do not bow or worship pictures. The European coin/cents carries images as well, using it to buy is different from worshiping it.

Good point......italo still cannot get your point....

He is so submerged in the mary image worship.......

italo: Let me get all of you right. Are you saying that anything that is not commanded in the Bible should not be done?

Please less stories. Just YES or NO.

Can smoking and the sniffing of cocaine be under the umbrella of the question you just asked??

E be like too much bowing down to mary don dey worry you.....

italo: Romans 9:5: Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is GOD over all, forever praised! Amen.

Frosbel:  Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is NOT God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Who do you believe in? The Holy Spirit or Frosbel the Evil Spirit?

Go to the other thread and see the exegesis on romans 9:5 before u start running around the place with a cherry picked verse.....

Oya,,,........

The messiah has a God over Him...

Did u forget that??

italo: Before I answer you, how far with that comedy business I told you about? You already started well, Mr Jehovah's Witness. In trying to twist scripture to your 19th century heresy, where you people claim Jesus is not God, when I told you that Thomas said "my Lord and my God," you said it was an exclamation just like we say "Chineke!" Or "oh my God!" Even though we both know that no Jew would disrespect God that way. Here's what you said:



Then I brought you this verse where Jesus is called God and you since dissapeared from that thread:



I miss you on that thread. Since you dissapeared there, no one has made me laugh with your kind of logical acrobatics. Please say something. I know you have something in your bag of tricks.

Or are you looking for an eclamation mark there too. Look harder! You just might find one.

Hey this verse has been explained over and over again by your same trinitarians....

Read this nigga...

"Theirs the patriarchs, and from them,
according to the flesh, is the Messiah.
God who is over all be blessed forever.
Amen." (NAB)
.......
"to them belong the patriarchs, and of
their race, according to the flesh, is
the Christ. God who is over all be
blessed for ever. Amen." (RSV)..

............

5 they are descended from the
famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a
human being, belongs to their race. May God,
who rules over all, be praised forever![b]
Amen....(Good News Translation) (GNT)
.......

I don't need exclamÀtion man.....

If u were an apostle back then this is how you would have rendered that verse....

How could you blindly think Jesus is God over all when Jesus himself has a God over Him...??

Except you if you aint biased by the trinity knows that Yahweh is excluded,and that Jesus is a subordinate to Yahweh...

Open that your bible and read from romans 15:5-6....

English Standard Version (ESV)
5 May the God of endurance and
encouragement grant you to live in such
harmony with one another, in accord with
Christ Jesus,
6 that together you may with
one voice glorify the ""God and Father"" of our
Lord Jesus Christ.


Hope you dey open your eye dey read??

Jesus has a God over him who is greater than him....
When you run into conclusion that the messiah is God over all you need to sit back and do some research.....

Also read ephesians 4:6......that says thÉ Father
is the God over Jesus,the angels,and all humans.....

Read the bible completely you cherry picker.....

italo: And I don't bow to the images...I just use it to draw my heart and mind to the one who was depicted by the image and ultimately to God who is the one that takes the glory for that person's piety. E.g When you see me in front of St. Peter's statue, I could be talking to St. Peter himself who is in heaven and can hear me. I could be saying: "St. Peter, pray for me that just as you gain strength through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, I also may become a tireless preacher and defender of the Gospel of our Lord. I could then go on to say other prayers to God himself directly and/or through other Saints. Ultimately, all my prayers are to God and any kneeling, standing or bowing is directly for God and/or the position of honour that God has put that Saint.

But an ijawt, sorry idiot, looking with hatred from afar or at pictures on nairaland, who doesn't know what is transpiring in my heart and cannot even hear my words will say: he's worshipping Mary.

I've seen that lil shrine in the homes of my catholic freinds and family members....

You guys literally bow down to mary's image and recite words of devotion...

Italo its wrong......

If you can't see this as wrong then I don't know what else is wrong from the bibles view point....

italo: Are you not a Jehovah's witness anymore? I have seen you people praying with a Bible in your hand and even raising the Bible up.

That means you are worshipping the Bible, doesn't it?

Hahahahaha.....

You don kill me with laugh tire.....

We raise up the bible and do what with it??bow down to it ??

Italo you funny o.......

Explain how we pray with the bible??

What can the bible do for us other than the fact that we read from it.....

Is the bÍble a or our mediator between man and God??