₦airaland Forum

frosbel: But you omitted the beginning of this chapter when it was clearly stated that an angel of Yahweh was sent to John.

The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”

then in v7 he continues

“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

Then it concludes in v12

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


Then v16 starts with Jesus Christ himself now speaking, before that from v1 to 12 it was GOD. Surely this is plain, no.

Also Jesus is referred to as the offspring of David, I never knew Yahweh was an offspring of David , calm down and think for a moment.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Twist and turn you are only confusing yourself and going on a merry go round that has no chance of stopping as long as you stubbornly hold on to your catholic falsehoods.

Ubenedictus: i'm doing great man!
u are trying to divert the discussion again. U have decided to bring in d pope. Face d discussion at hand.
did Jesus ask for the honor given to mediator? No! He asked for the honor due to the fada. He said he who doesnt give him that honor has also refused to honor the fada. He didnt ask to be honored as a mediator, he asked to be honored as his fada is. And d honor due to his fada is latria.

u still havent told me why Jesus christ ask to be honored even as the fada? The honor given to d fada is latria, worship. How come Jesus is asking for d honor given to his fada? And u are telling me Jesus doesnt deserve it?
I said it before and im saying again, he has equal dignity with his fada. He posseses d same fulnes of d Godhood state as his fada and he asks for d same honor and respect as his fada.
Peace

frosbel: The Trinity is an attack on the first commandment of GOD.

When asked about the most important commandment, here's what Jesus said.

New International Version (©1984)
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important? Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD." - Mark 12:28-29

This is akin to 'thou shall have no other gods before me'.


If we were to apply the Trinitarian principle , we have :

New International Version (©1984)
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important? Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is three persons and three Lords but ONE GOD."- Mark 12:28-29

If this concept is not of the anti Christ I really do not know what else is.

Boomark: Hmm...it seems its only rev 22 that is remaining.
Enigmatic, its better we start from the beginning ie rev 1:1-2 to understand the rest of revelations better.
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ,
which God gave him to show his
servants what must soon take
place. He made it known by
sending his angel to his servant
John, 2 who testifies to everything
he saw—that is, the word of God
and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

God gave Christ every thing we read about in the revelation and Chris brought the message from God to us. And Christ made it known to us by means of His angels.
Its like when GEJ sends a minister to represent him and read an address. The minister will read it this way "I, the president, commander in chief of the armed forces. I here by give all of you free electricity..." You know? Some thing like that. I will come to verse 22 letter. Please any one that has some thing to add should please do so. Except Ifedinobi.

Ubenedictus: u wish to dodge again abi? oh boy u are seriously outgunned. Or are u also going to tell me that John5 means another thing? What does ur bible say?

Ubenedictus: u wish to dodge again abi? oh boy u are seriously outgunned. Or are u also going to tell me that John5 means another thing? What does ur bible say?

frosbel: Talk about contradiction , this statement will make a very good class room example.

Jesus Christ who is GOD and therefore could not die , died !!

Sorry but the bible says that God is immortal and he cannot die, how come this changed and he died, and if he died who was ruling the universe.

You really are something else.

If this is not evidence to prove that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and 100% Man , which is why he was able to die, then we better go for brain surgery.



Blasphemy !!!

God did not incarnate into Christ , this is not at all mentioned or even implied in scripture.

God begat a Son with his HOLY Spirit through Mary. The only difference between Christ and a normal man was that he did not have a natural father hence his title Son of GOD.

Before Jesus started his ministry he had to be baptised and annointed, surely if he was God, why would he require annointing.




Wrong. This is not once mentioned in the bible , stop preaching error all over the place.

God sent his Son, mark the word Sent. God cannot send himself, you really are making no sense at all, it's horrifying to even imagine what you will say next to support this nonsense about GOD dying.

k2039: [color=#FF0099]
I will watch frome the sidelines
[/color]

Image123: If we sin everyday, it either means that Jesus failed miserably in His purpose of coming OR that we fail miserably in obtaining what Jesus came to give us.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jesus came to save us from our sins, that was His primary purpose. Anybody still living a defeated life under sin everyday is missing out big time, maybe because he is looking at something else.

2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savor of his knowledge by us in every place.

Zachariah the priest prophesying about Jesus had these to say;

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
God visited His people so that we can be delivered to serve Him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life, every day. It takes grace, and that grace has been given already.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
John 1 says "grace and truth came by Jesus Christ". Jesus brought us grace, that's what we get anytime we share the grace, its not just religious or routine. That grace teaches us to live righteously and godly. That grace helps us from perpetually sinning knowingly and unknowingly and making all kinds of mistakes. This is the very purpose for a new testament.

Ubenedictus: U are still trying to dodge my bible says Jesus was worship, heb say "let the angel worship him" were u blind wen that passage was read.

the bible says Jesus should be worshiped, it says "let the angels worship him" he deserves worship because he is true God. Jesus said the word should honor the son even as they honor the father. Jesus said he shuld be given d same honor as his father.
This is proof that Jesus is God by nature and posseses the "the fullness of the Godhood state" and thus deserve the dignity of worship and Godly honor that follow, dont try to dodge.
is the footnote part of d text? Did the writer of d book of heb write a footnote? That passage says "thy throne O God is forever and ever", it didnt say "thy throne is divine" as u claim.
Why shuld i read footnotes wen the text is there? Or is d footnote of gudnews part of d text?
the bible is clear the fada is father and God of our lord Jesus christ. That he has a fada doesnt make his nature any less Godly, it doesnt lower his Godhood state, because he posseses d fulness of it, not a half portion nor a measure of d fulness, he posseses the whole stuff, the fulness.
and yet the only begotter of father deserves worship, and the only begotten deserve to be honored even as the father is honored. Are u disputing that?

frosbel: Thank You , some people here are not Christians, but new agers that preach universalism , a type of doctrine that inculcates a combination of gnosticism, Hinduism mixed with Christianity, in fact someone here ( no names mentioned ) , has been told that his statements are akin to Hindu and Buddhist teachings.

When you stick to scripture, you can never fail.

You still owe me one sha about pre-existence , we shall discuss later this week

Please send me your mail again and I will reply you. Don't paste your mail or personal info here, not safe.

God bless.

Ihedinobi: You know, I've been frustrated and angry with you guys. Then, I was uncaring and amused by you guys. Now, I'm just saddened. But now also, I can wield all three groups of emotion depending on the situation.

Look at your arguments up there. The thing that used to baffle me about frosbel when I first tried to discuss with him was his seeming lack of appreciation for the fact that if one comes up with an understanding of certain verses in the Bible and another questions apparent disagreement between them and another or other verse or verses, one would be breaking the Scriptures by trying to either discount the troublesome passages or giving them meanings that obviously force them to yield to one's interpretations. And you guys are wont to do that.

It shows up in your arguments. When you get to difficult passages you choose the most absurd interpretations and when that just doesn't do, you question the translation. You never at any point realize that you're making excuses for rejecting the true meaning of the Scriptures that you're looking at.

Here you ask me if we're false gods. How about if I ask you if we're God at all? Do you think you have an answer other than to run right back and lift out of context a passage that says to human beings that they are gods? What if instead of lifting verses out of their context, you take account of their contextual meaning? Would the arguments of your opponents hold any merit then?

What if also you considered the position of your opponents that Jesus Christ is true Man and true God, forgetting for an instant how that can be possible? Would it make any sense at all? If Jesus is truly human, is it be too strange that He should say that He was sent by God? If He is truly God, is it strange that He should say that He and the Father are one? If God is a Trinity, is it too strange that He, the Word, could become a man and pray to Him, the Father in Heaven?

The truth is that these things are just the facts that the Bible gives. That it does not make sense to you is of very little moment at all. It doesn't count that you do not understand it. If you demand that you understand it before you believe it, that's your problem. I couldn't be bothered. Nobody becomes part of the Family of God on anyone else's faith but that of the Lord Christ Himself.

Ihedinobi: Poor you. Smh in sorrow.

If you care, see my response to Frosbel.



Are "we" really? You really think "we", by which I think you include me with you guys, are getting anywhere? That's very puzzling.

I'll tell you the grandest statement about the Trinity in the Bible: HEAR O ISRAEL, THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD. Now that statement declares that there is only truly one God (or "one true God", if you prefer, thus rendering all other gods false). If this is so, you realize that making Jesus a God apart from Yahweh is making Him a false God. Either He is God or He is not. If He is God, the Trinity is justified. If He is not, the Trinity is a lie. It cannot be midway.

You do get my point, right?

Ubenedictus: i already told u that accding to nature they posses equal dignity, that is why Jesus deserve worship and d honor like dat of d fada.

yahweh, i have told u b4 comprise of 3 persons, so maybe it is time 4 u to start, reconstructing ur sentence.
are u kidding? The fact that im equal to my dad in dignity, doesnt make him any less my dad, he is still my dad. And d fact that d fada and son have d fulnes of d same nature makes dem equal in dignity, that doesnt mean d fada is nolonger fada. U are nw making silly arguements.

u may want to reconstruct.

Ubenedictus: did d fada say we should b worshiped?

u are arguing against urself, i didnt make any of d above claims so i dont have to defend them.


the Jw has decided to manipulate scriptures, im not suprised that u have an adulterated bible. Mine reads:
"your throne, O God is forever and ever"
go and change ur bible.
ijawkid, u have created a strawman. Did i say d fada calls d son my God? No i didnt, so i dont need to prove it.
U are claiming that humans are also gods, i want to ask u, do humans deserve worship? Do humans deserve to be honored like d fada? Or do angel deserve worship? Or d angel deserve to d honored as the fada?
Tell me how come Jesus wu u claim to b just a creature deserves worship and the honor due to d fada accding to scripture. Tell me how.

Ubenedictus: u have start twisting my words, since d bgining of d arguement i have stick to equal dignity accding to d same nature.

Ubenedictus: these sound like rhetorical questions.

by bgeting the son, the father gave him all.

no!

i remember i told u that i have a different understanding of "greater than".

and i already xplained, that d fada is greater than him accding to d human nature he took

Ubenedictus: i explained this before, the father doesnt call the son "my God" because d son doesnt have monachia or leadership over the father, instead it is the other way round. To beget it to cause to be from ur own substance.

Ubenedictus: u have jumped, we havent finished d dignity stuff and u are jumping to knowledge the father said to his son "ur throne O GOD is for ever", the father also calls the son "God".
Peace

Enigma: Bros, I agree with most of these except I think the last sentence should probably be tempered.

There are a number of senses in which the word "brother" could be used legitimately even in relation to non-Christians. Purely, as human beings it could be fair to refer to another as "brother"; compare also "my Naija brother", "my African brother", "my Igbo brother" or in the case of our West Indian friends "me bredren".

As I said, I agree with most of your post and I certainly agree that it is the spirit of anti-Christ that makes a person deny that Jesus IS God - no matter that the person may be well intended.

ApostlePat: Yours is an insightful and revelation such as the Apostle John. The Apostle called such people ANTICHRIST operating in the spirit of Antichrist of the end time. Apostle John wrote in II John 1 vs 7, in the New Living Translation, "I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist".

What in the world is this Apostle saying to our generation by revelation? The same Apostle wrote in John 1:1 and 14,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth".

The Apostle John is saying to our generation by revelation that the Word that is God and was with God became flesh or human and dwell among us. This Word is Christ in his pre-existence and this Jesus is God. Any Christian that says Jesus Christ is not God, though not the Father, such Christian is operating in the spirit of Antichrist of the last days.



Again, yours is a kingdom statement filled with the knowledge of the word of God. All New Testament writers agree that Jesus is God that came to us in human form. Apostle Paul confess same eternal truth. In I Timothy 3 vs 16 in the GOD'S WORD® Translation says "The mystery that gives us our reverence for God is acknowledged to be great: He appeared in his human nature, was approved by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was announced throughout the nations, was believed in the world, and was taken to heaven in glory".

The "He" therein is God. Who on earth is this God that appeared in human nature? It was Jesus Christ, not the Father and in this verse Jesus Christ is God. BELOVED, BEWARE OF THE ANTICHRIST SPIRITS AND DECEIVERS IN THE LAST DAYS!

Ihedinobi: The Lord bless you, bro/sis. May His Grace be multiplied to you.

Ayomivic: Is it sin to believe in trinity?



How will you explain John 10:30 where Jesus said "I and my father are one"?



this above statement was kind of statements what made Jews disagreed with Jesus because they counted his statements to be blasphemy. That was the reason i said before that we today Christians are not different to Jews in Jesus time.If you don't believe in trinity, you will not believe about many things in Bible.You will not believe Jesus to be Son of God. You will not believe the existence of Holy Spirit e t c.


Let See what happened between Jesus and Jews here.



". . . . But Jesus answered them my father worketh hitherto,and i work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him because he not only had broken the sabbath but said also that God was his father making himself equal with God.Then answer Jesus and said unto them verily,verily i say unto you, the son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the father do:for what thing soever he doeth,these also doeth the son likewise.For the father loveth the son and sheweth him all things himself doeth and he will shew him greater works than these that ye may marvel John 5:17"

Plese read further there are lots to learn there.In verse 23 of that chapter he says


" that all men should honour the son, even as they honour the father.He that honoureth not the son honoureth not the father which has sent him"


Reading these veses, does it not sound as if Jesus was making himself equal to God ?



Ubenidictus was speaking confusive words like Jesus and you are speaking like Jews that did not want to tolerate nonsence. (iam just using this as illustration) But let see what Paul says about this.


". . . .For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but unto us it is the power of God.For it is written i will destroy the wisdom of the wise and i will bring to nothing the understanding of prudent.Where is the wise?Where is the scribe?Where is the disputer of this world?Hath not God made the foolish the wisdom of this world.For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, IT PLEASE GOD BY THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING TO SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE.1 Corinth 1:18-21. Please read futher in your Bible.



Iam not written this to say God and Jesus are equal but to say that there are mysteries in the world of God and that was how God designs it to be.And that was what make some people not to accept the gosple of Jesus because they want to use canal to tell whom God is. The stone that the builder rejected has become the corner stone.




You should accept the word trinity because Bible says that three bear record in heaven, the father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Ubenidictus should accept that God the father is greater than Jesus because Jesus said My father is greater than me.
And all Christians should know that our God is one in the real sense for Jesus himself call him his God.

Ayomivic: I believed that Yahweh is greater than Jesus and i believed that some trinitarians aslo do but before i do what you asked me to do, i will like to ask you questions

1 Do you believe that Jesus is God even though he is not equal to Yahweh?

2 Why did you want us to stop the using of trinity?

Ubenedictus: it means he fully possessed the Godhnod state.

so u think Jesus and angels are equal abi? Tell me why has d fada neva said of any angel "i begot u" and y are d angels to worship Jesus if u claim they are equal?
Answer...

Ubenedictus: he was eternally begotten, there is nothing 'before' wen we talk of eternity.

d fada also calls his son God heb 1

where did u hear this.

Jesus is all knowing, were did u get this?

they are equal in dignity

they arent begotten

and im also a son of God, but neither man nor angel is d begotten son of God christ is

we havent resolved d dignity stuff, i dont want to jump.