₦airaland Forum

debosky: So Jesus is just another saviour that God 'appointed'? Really?

In short Jesus is no different from Moses, Joshua or all the prophets?

Comparing Jesus to Ehud? Did Ehud take away the sin of his own family or even the tribe of Benjamin?

See until u remove the trinity veil from your eyes u'll never understand plain truths....

U asked if Jesus was like moses??

If u had forgotten,Yahweh once said he'll raise up a prophet like moses....and that prophet came to be Jesus....

And in many ways Jesus is like we humans who are serving God...why??

Because we share the same Father and God with Jesus...

That is why Jesus is called Yahwehs servant....

SERVANT.....have u analyzed that word??

SERVANTTTTTTTTT........

I am a servant of Yahweh,you(debosky) are a servant of God,ihedinobi is a servant of Yahweh ,moses was a servant of Yahweh and Jesus too........


I'll tell u this again my dear bro.....

Remove the veil of trinity and u'll see clearly.....

Moses freed and carried d isrealites away from egyptian bondage.....

Exactly the same thing Jesus is doing,but on a grander scale......

debosky: Did God save Jesus from death? Did Jesus not die? How did God 'save' Jesus here? If God 'saved' Jesus from death, how would Jesus have become the saviour of mankind without dying?

This is a clear reference to the prayers in the Garden of Gethsemane before the crucifixion, and so again, I ask, where did he save?

There cannot be two saviours - God said he is THE Saviour, Jesus is THE Saviour, the Redeemer - you have failed to explain this.

To clarify, this is the definition of Saviour: a person who rescues another person or a thing from danger or harm

Note it's not someone who 'can save/can rescue' but who actually saves! There is ONLY ONE SAVIOUR!

I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.

Now let me ask u this question.:::::

Jesus saved us from sin and death....abi??

But why are we still dying and sinning??

If u answer this question then u've answered the question you asked me....

If u can't see scriptural points clearly then I don't know what else to do.....

For the fact Yahweh ressurected Jesus isn't that enough to show Yahweh was Jesus's saviour??

Jesus cried to the one who could save Him,and indeed he was saved.....

Jehovah is the one who always provides a saviour for his people,so as to get the glory...

He has done that many times b4 Jesus came.....

I started with moses.....moses was a saviour..

I again quoted judges 3:15 to show you another saviour that Yahweh erected(Ehud).....

Moses and ehud being saviours does not negate Yahweh from being the only saviour.....

Yahweh uses agents to save or redeem his people......

Can't u just understand that??

Debosky why u dey fall my hand??......

frosbel: You are seriously clutching at straws here.

I suggest you do some reading and research.

He really needs to.....

I just showed him series of Saviours that God appointed including Jesus through out the history of mankind and Gods people....

But debosky has chosen not to see it....

Living_Saint: I believe in the Trinity, and I believe in only one God.

Confusion @ its peak....

@haibe.....

So u mean to say Yahweh was seen physically here on earth but made it rain fire and sulphur from heaven??
Abi??

I'll leave you to be arguing with Jesus who said no one has seen God....

haibe: Afterward Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of
Mam′re, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about
the heat of the day. When he raised his eyes, then he looked
and there three men were standing some distance from him.
When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them
from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to
the earth. Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor
in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant. Let a little
water be taken, please, and YOU must have YOUR feet
washed. Then recline under the tree. And let me get a piece
of bread, and refresh YOUR hearts. Following that, YOU can
pass on, because that is why YOU have passed this way to
YOUR servant.” At this they said: “All right. You may do
just as you have spoken.”


No matter how you try to mis-interprete the bible, it is clear that abraham saw Jehovah.

Now the two angels arrived at Sod′om by evening, and Lot
was sitting in the gate of Sod′om. When Lot caught sight of
them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his
face to the earth.

IT is clear that only two angels were there with Jehovah, thus Jehovah and 2 angels appeared to abraham, dont forget jehovah waited behind with abraham leaving the two angels to go to sodom and gommorrah

Jehovah later goes to join the 2 angels.

The sun had gone forth over the land when Lot arrived at
Zo′ar. Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from
Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod′om and upon Go‧mor
′rah. "

It is very clear that jehovah was among the 3 men abraham saw or why will the 2 angels be separated from jehovah when addresing them.
No matter how you try to mis-interprete this verses, it is very clear Abraham saw jehovah.

He said:
“Men, brothers and fathers, hear. The God of glory appeared
to our forefather Abraham while he was in Mes‧o‧po‧ta′mi‧a,
before he took up residence in Ha′ran,

The God of glory appeared not Angel of the God of glory.
It amazes me how ijawkid try to twist scriptures to suit himself.

Well for your information the Jesus did not contradict himself saying no one has seen the father at any time, its true that no man has seen the father but the son has been seen anh he was the one who appeared to our fore fathers abraham" but because you want to try to suit yourself, you deny that it was an angel that abraham saw, yes 2 angels were there but Jehovah was there also, to say the Jehovah in that passage above refer to angels, i guess you have to re-write the whole bible becos you put yourself in a dilemma.

PS your write-up about who appeared to abraham doesnt make any sense, you contradict the scriptures

U seem to have a problem reasoning from the scriptures....

Please with your present stance try corroborating it with the apostle Johns words @ john 1:18 and 1 john 4:12....

You barely understand that scriptures must be alligned.....

You fail to understand that scriptures explain scriptures....that has been your problem....

Yahwehs representatives were the ones that were seen and touched and felt,not Yahweh...

You sound like I'm the writer of the book of John.....

I repeat..:::::No man has seen God(Yahweh @ anytime)...that is a fact....

You can go wallow in your ignorance.....


You are the one delusioned here not me....

You fail to interprete verses with verses.....

That I did and you are sticking to that same verse u've been quoting,but failed to consider Johns words and even Jesus own words...


Let me quote Jesus words....
John 6:46...
.......
New International Version (©1984)
No one has seen the Father except the one
who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
........
New Living Translation (©2007)
(Not that anyone has ever seen the Father;
only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.)
.....
English Standard Version (©2001)
not that anyone has seen the Father except he
who is from God; he has seen the Father.
.....
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except
the One who is from God; He has seen the
Father.


I want u to corroborate your continous obstinate stance on the fact that persons(Man) saw Yahweh,with Johns testimony and that of Jesus whom the Father sent.....

Jesus confirmed that no one(including moses and abraham..etc) has seen God...
........

You are are just a stubborn person.......

You are rather suppose to humble yourself and really find out who or what abraham and the rest patriarchs saw....and I just did give you details on it............but you seem too hard hearted....

Your argument doesn't negate the Fact that Yahweh is greater than Jesus.......

deebrain: Op... u are just sick and pathetic. The guy u lifted this article from is a well known critic of Criss Angel just as many others (magicians etc)..If u want to preach to people concerning the coming of Jesus or to be born again-convince people of the love of christ rather than all these hell and anti-christ stories.And dont forget-Satan will not be as stupid as you think-to use a well known "Satanist" as the anti christ since many of the elect wont fall for it.

Exactly......

joe4christ: You aint got a clue what you're wishing for until it dawns on you.
Or u think we're joking here? Most of us have had a glimps of what lies ahead through grace we are allowed to share our experiences about the realities of this eternal destinations but u generation of vipers wont heed to our warnings, what a generation indeed.
God help you!

The book of revelations is enough....

Let's be content with scriptures.....

@HAIBE...

People saw Jesus's Face,touched Him,saw his full figure and even ate with him.....

But the bible times with out number says Yahweh can not be seen and has never been seen by humans.......

John re-confirmed those words both @ john 1:18 and 1 John 4:12

1 john 4:12:::
English Standard Version (©2001)
No one has ever seen God; if we love one
another, God abides in us and his love is
perfected in us.


John 1:18...

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the
one who is closest to the Father's heart, has
made him known.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
No man has seen God at any time; the only
begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the
Father, he has declared him.
........

That lengthy explanation I gave up there explains who all of Yahwehs servants saw through out bible history.....

But your stubbornness won't let you concede...

Be humble my bro and accept bible truths...it won't kill you...

I repeat::::NO MAN has seen God @ anytime(that includes moses,abraham, and all those who thougth they came in contact with God)

truthislight: may Yahweh and his son forgives you.

This is what satan does to people.

They loss the fear of God and his son.

"The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom".

Truthislight don't mind Him....na stubbornness dey worry am

Many times I've told this guy that moses didn't see God....

It seems he barely reads......

Let me spell it out again for Him...

Moses once expressed the desire to see God. At Exodus 33:18-20, we read: “‘Cause me [Moses] to see, please, your glory.’ But he [God] said: ‘I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Yahweh before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.’ And he added: ‘You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.’”
What God permitted Moses to see was His passing glory. Verses 21-23 state: “And GOD said further: ‘Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.’”
In harmony with what Yahweh told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses saw no materialization or material form of God. All that Moses saw was the afterglow of the divine presence passing by. Even then he had to be divinely protected. Obviously, it was not God himself that Moses saw.
When Moses spoke to God “face to face,” as stated at Exodus 33:11, he was not in visual contact with Yahweh. This expression indicates the manner in which Moses communicated with God, not what he saw. Speaking with God “face to face” indicates a two-way conversation. Similarly, an individual can carry on a two-way conversation by telephone without seeing the other person.
When Moses talked with God and received instructions from him, the communication was not through visions, as was often the case with other prophets. This is noted at Numbers 12:6-8, where we read: “He went on to say: ‘Hear my words, please. If there came to be a prophet of yours for Yahweh, it would be in a vision I would make myself known to him. In a dream I would speak to him. Not so my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Mouth to mouth I speak to him, thus showing him, and not by riddles; and the appearance of Yahweh is what he beholds.’” In what sense did Moses behold “the appearance of Yahweh”?
Moses beheld “the appearance of Yahweh” when he, Aaron, and certain other men were on Mount Sinai. At Exodus 24:10, it is written: “They got to see the God of Israel. And under his feet there was what seemed like a work of sapphire flagstones and like the very heavens for purity.” But how did Moses and the other men get to “see the God of Israel,” since God had told him, “No man may see me and yet live”? Verse 11 explains, for it says: “He did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel, but they got a vision of the true God and ate and drank.” So the appearance of God that Moses and the others saw was by means of a vision....

Enigma: Well, even if you don't answer the questions that have been put to you on this thread here, I am sure they will continue to abide with you.

Chiefly (from me aside debosky's), ask yourself if the person speaking in Rev 1:8 is different from the one speaking in Rev 1:17-20; and if "alpha and omega" in verse 8 is different from "first and last" in verses 17-20.

Good night.

Revelations 1:8 as u can read with ur eyes is reffered to Yahweh....who is the almighty God...

verses 1 -6 explains it all...

Verses 17-18 says Jesus dies and was raised,and now lives forever...

I have asked:::: Can the almighty die??

Can the almighty have a Father and God over Him??

Remove the trinity veil from your eyes and read revelations 1:1-8 and tell me who is the almighty God @ verse 8...

I had debunked Ola on this very verse.....

debosky: I'm sorry - the bible doesn't call God the saviour of all saviours - that is your own creation. Like I said, I am here to discuss biblical accounts and not opinions.

This is what Jesus said about his life, in John 10:18

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

So again I ask you, where in the bible is Yahweh called the 'saviour of all saviours'?

Hey sorry my bro....my internet bundle got exhausted @ mid night...there was nothing I could do...but I'm up this morning and this is a perfect reply to your question...

I said Yahweh is Jesus's saviour....which makes Him the saviour of all saviours.


would u deny that Yahweh isn't Jesus's saviour??

U wanna argue that??


Let me quote hebrew 5:4-10...

4 And no one takes this
honor on himself, but he receives it when
called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on
himself the glory of becoming a high priest.
But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”[a]
6 And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”[b]
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he
offered up prayers and petitions with fervent
cries and tears to the one who could "SAVE" him
from death, and he was heard because of his
reverent submission.

Did I just read ""to the one(Yahweh) who could"" save"" Him(Jesus) from death"".??....

That verse 7 tells who the saviour of Christ is.....

My bro that is d bible talking.....

Jesus died to save us,Yahweh saved Jesus....it was all Yahwehs plan...

That's why I said Yahweh is the saviour of all Saviours.....almighty Saviour
U get it??

Jesus's dying although was out of his own free will(that's why he said no man taketh it from me,but I lay it down myself),but @ d same time he came to do his Fathers will.....besides Jesus said no"" man"" taketh it from me..I might wanna ask you if that statement includes Yahweh,who ofcus isn't a man...you can go find the answers yourself..

Like an obedient Child Jesus carried out his Fathers wish and commands....

Let's read hebrews 10:7 $ 9

7..Then I (Jesus) said, Here I am to do your will,O God(Yahweh) just as it was written of me in the book of the law..
9..Then He(Jesus) said,""here I am.O God(Yahweh),to do your will..So God(Yahweh) does away with all the old sacrifices and puts the sacrifice of Christ in their place..

Its the same with us....we willingly out of free will choose to serve Yahweh..the same free will Jesus had...but having made that pledge to do Yahwehs will ,just as Jesus did,we make sure we carry out Gods commands to the end...when we agree to Yahwehs terms and conditions,we carry out his will...that is why Jesus could say"" let not my wiLl ,but yours(Yahweh) take place""..Jesus wasn't on some shekpe when he said that..

The plan for mankind to be redeemed was instigated by the Father(the almighty),not Jesus...hope u know that??

Incase u've forgotten let's read the most popular scripture all Christians memorize..

John 3:16:
Goodnews bible::

16..For God(Yahweh,ofcus not Jesus) loved the world the world so much that he gave his only(begotten) Son,so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life..
.
Jesus his(Yahwehs) only begotten son became the agent through which Yahweh used to save mankind and reconcile them to Himself(Yahweh)...so isaiah is so right when it says Yahweh is our savior...The title saviour that was attached to Jesus doesn't negate the fact that Yahweh is the all saving God..the savior of all saviours..He is everything..he Is Father.Lord and God over Jesus...

Through out bible history,Yahweh has always saved his people through his agents..

Moses was an agent(a saviour),Joshua(a saviour),all the prophets of old(were saviours) and they were all agents Yahweh used to redeem his people...

Let's check out this scripture too
Judges 3:15

American Standard Version
But when the children of Israel cried unto
Jehovah, Jehovah raised them up a ""SAVIOUR"",
Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjamite, a man
left-handed. And the children of Israel sent
tribute by him unto Eglon the king of Moab.

I can't come out here to say because EHUD was appointed saviour over the house of benjamin and isreal.therefore Yahweh stops being the Saviour of all...never!!!!....

Just as EHUD and all other men were appointed to save Yahwehs people @ there time,so also Yahweh appointed Jesus his Son as Saviour...

Let me finally read 1 john 4:13 $ 14..NIV..
13 This is how we know that we live in him and
he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And
we have seen and testify that the Father has
sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Yahweh appointed his son to be Saviour..Jesus didn't assume that role..he was given the priviledge and responsibility..

And when that happens all glory goes to Yahweh who indeed is the provider of everything,including the provision of His son..

So ISAIAH wasn't making any mistake.....

All your attempts to equate Jesus with his Father won't work because the bible doesn't support it.....

And where is that haibe of a boy/man...

@haibe..I just spotted the scripture...1 john 4:12..NIV..
12"" No one has ever seen God""; but if
we love one another, God lives in us and his
love is made complete in us.


Its just a reminder for you to see clearly that no one has ever seen God...

NO MAN can see God and yet live...

Enigma: Because I anticipate how some of Frosbel's friends will interprete that Revelation 1:8, I say to frosbel and also to others following in good faith, why not read a little further in that same Revelation 1?

Then you will see the following

Why didn't u read from verses 1.....??


Besides after Jesus said I am the 1st and the last ,he explained what he meant....he said he was the 1st from the dead......

Revelations 1:8 is directed to Yahweh who from verse 1 and 5 $ 6 was and is Jesus's God and Father....

Didn't u read that??

Open ya eyes and read it well....

Jesus said he was dead,but he is now alive...

Does God die??

Can God die??

We've been asking this question but no answer from you and your supporters......

Revelation 1:8 is directed to Yahweh......

debosky: If we accept Jesus is 'Mighty' not 'Almighty' (I assume this is what you are saying) what does the name Mighty God mean to you?



You didn't answer the question - is Jesus The Saviour or not? I am not talking about 'initiating a plan' here. Let's keep it strictly biblical. If Jesus is The Saviour, how do we reconcile that with Jehovah's statement in Isaiah?



Nothing wrong with references bro, but I want to have a discussion with you, not the author of some other article. Articles often lead to diversion from the matter at hand.

How is Jesus a 'god in his own right'? What do you mean by this and how many other 'gods' are there?

Tutoring u guys is kinda hard...

Ok let me make it simple...

Jesus(saviour) was used by Jah to reconcile us to God(Jah).......

But Yahweh is the saviour of Christ....

Which ever way u wanna look @ it,Yahweh is the supreme saviour....

Yahweh was the one who made the provision for Jesus to come die a sacrificial death...

Even though Jesus did die and become our saviour,Yahweh becomes the saviour of all saviours for the fact that he provided the ransom and also he(Yahweh) is Jesus's saviour....

If not for Yahweh,Jesus would have remained in the grave......Jesus's saviour is Yahweh....

And so Yahweh is the over all saviour....

So bro the title Saviour is no problem......

U know we've dealt with titles....

This one shuldnt be hard for you.....


I still don't know why all trinitarians run away from one title that was attached to Jesus....

""SERVANT""

U guys barely deliberate on the Fact that Jesus was and is a servant of Yahweh just as you and me are.....

You guys are all over titles like God,Lord,king of kings(which was debunked)....

But never are u guys on Jesus being called Yahwehs ""SERVANT"" ,""APOSTLE""


Please try and look into that

CrazyMan: Then drink some of the local gin in da house...sepe, paraga etc.

Lol....

Shekpe will be too strong on me this night....

Monkey tail no dey??

@buzu boy.....which one are u on??

musKeeto: No doubt that you're a crase man though.. i think CrazyMan should lend you his id...

lol.

Lmao....

Oh my belle don pain me for laugh.....

Ihedinobi: Pastor Kun just said on one of the other threads that Trinitarians are the ones rewriting the Bible. What a laugh lol

Hahahahahahahahaha.....

Pastor kun is indeed funny...

But he said the truth.......

haibe: Did moses see God or not ?

Did u read my post @ all??

Did u??

Answer me....

I repeat and I re-iterate...

NO MAN can see God and yet live.....

If moses did see God he'll. Die......

Did u read that whole exegesis of how many came in contact with Yahwehs angels and not Yahweh himself??

Yahweh doesn't contradict himself....

Scriptures explain scriptures....

I quoted all scriptures to explain and open your eyes to the truth.....

Yahweh said NO man can see Him and live...

John @ joh 1:18 stamps Yahwehs words....

So I throw back your question to you....

Did moses see God??

Pastor Kun: It is actually you trinitarians that are trying to re write the bible as the pagan concept is clearly not in the bible neither does it have any basis in christianity. The doctrine actually contradicts the teachings of christ in the bible as christ made it clear the father is greater than he is.

It still baffles me how trinitarians are saying Jesus is lying or was on some wine when he said the Father is greater than he(Jesus)....

Simple statement...but paganism would make many argue over a fact that has been stamped.....

December is coming soon....they'll soon celebrate the birth day of God...

Pagans worship triad Gods and celebrate the birth days of these Gods so also trinitarians....

Infact the reason why the founders of the doctrine are so itchy to make Jesus the almighty or equal to Yahweh is so that it can corroborate with there pagan counterparts who celebrate the birthdays of there Gods......

Its all clear to me now...

Image123: if he has a father, how can he be a father?

Jesus was given the title eternal Father because he is the 2nd adam....

The 1st adam if he hadn't sinned against Yahweh would have been our eternal Father....

But Jesus being the 2nd adam fills that position...

But as it is stamped in the bible Yahweh is the Father and God of Jesus...

E dey pain u??

Jesus is Father over us(by virtue of the fact that he is the 2nd adam,Yahweh is Father over Jesus(the oga kpata kpata).....



How do u like that??

chukwudi44: Image in that sense means shape.While man has the image of God he still does not have the nature of God which is trinitarian

We have the nature of God too.....

That's why we are called Gods too....

Hope u no forget.......

Ubenedictus: actually constantine had no vioce in the council of nicea, silience was self and collectively imposed upon him because he wasnt a priest nor a bishop. Constantine was voiceless in that council.

Na so we hear...

But he enforced it abi??

haibe: Genesis 18:1-33
King James Version (KJV)
And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the
heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he
ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from
thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for
therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of
fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young
man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he
stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy
wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah
after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my
lord being old also?
13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear
a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to
the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst
laugh.
16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to
bring them on the way.
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the
earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall
keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham
that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is
very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it,
which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet
before the LORD.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the
place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that
the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do
right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the
place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD,
which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of
five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And
he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there
shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there
shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure
ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham
returned unto his place.

Can any sane person tell all the three men here are all angels, then there is a problem, ijawkid there must be a problem with your understanding of the scriptures.lol

You are only fooling yourself by contradicting what John ratified @ john 1;18.....

Yahweh himself said:::::no one can see me and yet live......

You should be humble to do more research rather than contradict Yahwehs own words...

Read your bible and read that exegesis I gave up there

haibe: Lol, i now see what the watch tower has done to you, So it was an angel that later went to destroy sodom and gomorrah after leaving abraham? Nice one.

My bro, please read your bible well, frosbel i think you can help ijawkid, seems you have a better understanding than him in this aspect.

Was the LORD used in those texts referring to an angel?

Now why did u mention watchtower??

Have I given u 1??lol...

I have answered your question......read it up...

You are the one who needs to sit back and read the bible from cover to cover to get the sense of eveything.....

Oya read ....its up there...

I re-iterate::::::.....NO MAM has seen GOD @ anytime....

I didn't quote from watchtower,I quoted john 1:18....

haibe: Anti-trinitarians you may like to give an explanation on this post, i cant find ijawkid again.

Oh my bro I can't run away from u..

I have handled this case so many times...

Ok read this thorough bible work and exegesis......

The bible cannot contradict itself ,rather scriptures explain scriptures....

So sit back and read...

Has Anyone Seen God?
THE renowned patriarch Abraham, who lived more than 1,900 years before the birth of Jesus Christ, was so warmly viewed by our Creator that he was called “God’s friend.” (James 2:23, ) If anyone would be given the privilege of seeing God, surely Abraham would be that person. Well, on a certain occasion, three visitors came to him with a divine message. Abraham addressed one of them as YAHWEH. Does this mean that Abraham actually saw God?
This account is found at Genesis 18:1-3. There we read: “YAHWEH appeared to him among the big trees of Mamre, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth. Then he said: ‘Yahweh, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant.’”
Later, when Abraham and his three visitors were viewing Sodom from an elevated location, two left to visit the city. Verse 22 then says: “But as for Yahweh, he was still standing before Abraham.” It would appear from this that God was present with Abraham in a materialized fleshly body. This is what some persons contend who believe that God and Jesus Christ are one and the same person.(Like haibe and. His cohorts)
Regarding Genesis 18:3, Bible scholar Melancthon W. Jacobus wrote: “Here God appears for the first time on record as man among men, to show the reality of His Being, and of His affinity with men, and by this typical act to assure the patriarch of the Divine communion and fellowship.” Those having this point of view could conclude that Abraham actually saw GOD with his physical eyes and that persons who saw Jesus Christ also saw God. But is this conclusion in harmony with the Bible?
What Jesus Said
Instead of announcing that he was God in the flesh, Jesus Christ said: “I am God’s Son.” (John 10:36) As Yahweh’s perfect Representative, Jesus also said: “I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 5:30) Towards the death of Christ, he prayed to the great Creator in the heavens, addressing him as “My God, my God.” (Matthew 27:46) After his resurrection, Jesus told Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” (John 20:1, 17) Since Jesus Christ was not God incarnate, no one who saw Jesus could say that he had thus seen God.
John, the apostle whom Jesus especially loved, confirmed the fact that the apostles were not seeing God when they looked at Jesus. Under inspiration John said: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) Whom, then, did Abraham see? The experience of Moses helps us to find the answer.
How Moses Saw God
Moses once expressed the desire to see God. At Exodus 33:18-20, we read: “‘Cause me [Moses] to see, please, your glory.’ But he [God] said: ‘I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Yahweh before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.’ And he added: ‘You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.’”
What God permitted Moses to see was His passing glory. Verses 21-23 state: “And GOD said further: ‘Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.’”
In harmony with what Yahweh told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses saw no materialization or material form of God. All that Moses saw was the afterglow of the divine presence passing by. Even then he had to be divinely protected. Obviously, it was not God himself that Moses saw.
When Moses spoke to God “face to face,” as stated at Exodus 33:11, he was not in visual contact with Yahweh. This expression indicates the manner in which Moses communicated with God, not what he saw. Speaking with God “face to face” indicates a two-way conversation. Similarly, an individual can carry on a two-way conversation by telephone without seeing the other person.
When Moses talked with God and received instructions from him, the communication was not through visions, as was often the case with other prophets. This is noted at Numbers 12:6-8, where we read: “He went on to say: ‘Hear my words, please. If there came to be a prophet of yours for Yahweh, it would be in a vision I would make myself known to him. In a dream I would speak to him. Not so my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Mouth to mouth I speak to him, thus showing him, and not by riddles; and the appearance of Yahweh is what he beholds.’” In what sense did Moses behold “the appearance of Yahweh”?
Moses beheld “the appearance of Yahweh” when he, Aaron, and certain other men were on Mount Sinai. At Exodus 24:10, it is written: “They got to see the God of Israel. And under his feet there was what seemed like a work of sapphire flagstones and like the very heavens for purity.” But how did Moses and the other men get to “see the God of Israel,” since God had told him, “No man may see me and yet live”? Verse 11 explains, for it says: “He did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel, but they got a vision of the true God and ate and drank.” So the appearance of God that Moses and the others saw was by means of a vision.
Angelic Representatives
It has not been necessary for the great Creator of the universe to come down from his lofty place in the heavens in order to deliver messages to certain humans. Aside from the three recorded instances when God’s own voice was heard while his Son was on the earth, Yahweh has always used angels to transmit His messages. (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28) Even the Law that God gave to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai was transmitted by angels, although Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself. Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: “why ,then,was the law given?it was given alongside the promise to show people their sins.but the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised.God gave his law through angels to moses,who was the mediator between God and the people(new living translation).”—Galatians 3:19.
That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: “He was in the assembly in the desert ,with the angel who spoke to him on mount Sinai,and with our fathers;and he received living words to pass on to us”(NIV). That angel was the personal spokesman for Yahweh, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
The angel who delivered God’s message to Moses at the burning thornbush was also a spokesman. He is identified as Yahweh’s angel at Exodus 3:2, where we are told: “and the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush;and he looked,and ,behold,the bush burned with fire,and the bush was not consumed.” Verse 4 says: “And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see,God called unto him out of the midst of the bush,and said,moses,moses.And he said Here I am.” In verse 6, this angelic spokesman for God said: “Moreover he said,I am the God of thy father,the God of Abraham,the GOD of Isaac and the GOD of Jacob.And moses hid his face;for he was afraid to look upon God.” So when speaking with this personal representative of God, Moses spoke as if he were speaking to Yahweh himself.—Exodus 4:10.
In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Yahwehs angel.” There we read: “Later yahweh’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” This messenger, “God’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were YAHWEH himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that GOD faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, LORD. With what shall I save Israel?’” So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face!” The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Although he did not actually see God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
“No Man Has Seen God”
Now it is possible to understand why Abraham addressed the materialized angelic spokesman of God as if he were talking to Yahweh himself. Since this angel spoke precisely what God wanted to have said to Abraham and was there personally representing Him, the Biblical record could say that “the LORD appeared to him.”—Genesis 18:1.
Remember that an angelic spokesman for God could transmit His messages just as precisely as a telephone or a radio can transmit our words to another person. Hence, it can be understood how Abraham, Moses, Manoah, and others could speak with a materialized angel as if they were talking to God. While such individuals were able to see these angels and the glory of Yahweh reflected by them, they were not able to see God. Therefore, this in no way contradicts the apostle John’s statement: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) What these men saw were angelic representatives and not God himself.
Those are examples of how Yahweh used his spirit messangers to deliver timely utterances back then……..
They spoke exactly what Yahweh wanted them to say,which is the same case with Jesus…..

Jesus said nothing out of his own originality…what ever the Father told him to say is what he said @ every given point in time……

haibe: "When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD
APPEARED to Abram and said to him, ‘I am God
Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless, …’ When he
had finished talking with him, God went up from
Abraham." Genesis 17:1, 22

"God spoke to Moses and said to him, ‘I am the LORD. I
APPEARED to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God
Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make
myself known to them.’" Exodus 6:2-3

"And Stephen said: ‘Brothers and fathers, hear me. The
God of glory APPEARED to our father Abraham when he
was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,’" Acts 7:2

Anyone who believes the word of God should therefore have no problem accepting the
Bible’s clear teaching that on at least one occasion Yahweh
appeared to Abraham as a man who then left him to destroy
Sodom and Gomorrah.

PS: No man has seen the father at anytime_Jesus Christ(John 6:46)

Something must be wrong with u haibe.....SMH!!!!

Those persons who appeared to abraham were angels....

Did u read your bible well @ all.??

John 1:18 still confirms that no one has ever seen GOD(Yahweh).....

Did it elude johns reasoning that Yahweh had earlier appeared to abraham as a man??

My freind u better go settle down and do your research.....

Nobody has ever seen Yahweh....only representatives of Yahweh can and has been seen through out history....

U dey hear me??

Please read john 1:18 and think well....

Freksy: The above assertion is baseless and is a huge LIE. The truth is what you have been told by ijawkid. The begetter is not = the begotten. The former is always greater than the latter.

Isaac was "the only begotten son" of Abraham. He was not = Abraham, his father.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son," -Hebrews 11:17 (NKJV)

What Abraham did as describes by Paul at Hebrews 11:17 was a demonstration of what God would do to redeem man.

Abraham, the father of Isaac, represented Yahweh, our heavenly father.

Isaac, the only begotten son of Abraham, prefigured or represented Jesus, the only begotten son of Yahweh.

The only begotten son of Abraham was not = Abraham. Similarly, the only begotten son of Yahweh is not = Yahweh

Ola has been debunked so hard that he seems confused...

Thank you for using that perfect illustration....

Thinking Jesus is equal with Yahweh or Yahweh is like thinking isaac is equal with abraham or abraham.....

Good point fresky....

haibe: John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father,
save he
which is of God, he hath seen the Father."
Would this be contradiction frosbel? No, but lets see
Exo. 6:2-3, "And God spake unto Moses, and said unto
him, I
am the LORD: 3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac,
and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my
name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."
Num. 12:6-8, "And he said, Hear now my words: If there
be a
prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known
unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7My
servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently,
and
not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall
he
behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against
my
servant Moses?"
Frosbel check also, Exo. 24:9-11; Gen. 17:1; 18:1; 19:24
with Amos
4:10-11; Acts 7:2.
As you can see from the above scriptures, God Almighty
was seen,
but it was not God the Father. But the Son and thats why i
said to ijawkid that you cant conclude that Yahweh is a
name exclusive to the Father only but the Godhead in
general.
Well thats me and ijawkids discussion, so i will leave that.
So did the bible contradict itself frosbel?

Ijawkid you can help frosbel in answering this one.

I still don't get what ur saying...

Wait o...

Are you trying to say people saw Yahweh??

Can Yahweh be seen physically??

will all these merry go round prove that Jesus is equal to the Father??

Would it stop Jesus from being Yahwehs servant??

Meanwhile I'm coming to explain those scriptures......

Just wait for me.....

haibe: "And the LORD rained upon sodom and gomorrah brimestone and fire "from" the LORD out of heaven"

@ijawkid i can see 2 capital LORDS now, can you explain?
OR
Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from
Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod′om and upon Go‧mor
′rah.

Haibe u baffle me sometimes....

U seem not to understand scriptures......

Is that scripture u quoted d same thing with what u read @ psalm 110:1.....??

In the scripture u quoted is the Lord there not d same person?
It was Yahweh who make it rain fire and sulphur on sodom and gomrrah...

Psalms 110:1 talks about LORD(Yahweh) putting Jesus(Lord) @ his right hand

And it seems from psalms u never took note of the 2 Lords mentioned...

One was (LORD) and the other (Lord)

Do u see the difference??look @ the casing used...

One is all capital letters and the other is not.....all to distinguish between Yahweh and Jesus...

But this verse u quoted the Lords mentioned there are both all in capital letters...

LORD....and all in capital letter refers to Yahweh.....

Please do ur research well...

Don't just open the bible and start quoting any verse in it just to prove the trinity......

Next!!!!!.....

Incase u've forgotten so quickly....see psalms 110:1

New International Version (©1984)
Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand until I make your
enemies a footstool for your feet."
......
New Living Translation (©2007)
A psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord,
"Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until
I humble your enemies, making them a
footstool under your feet."
...
English Standard Version (©2001)
A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand, until I make your
enemies your footstool.”
...

Do u spot the difference between the"" Lord"" used in psalms 110:1??

One is LORD and the other Lord.....

The difference is clear just like 7up...

In the verse u brought the Lord used 2 times both appear as LORD...all capital letters...

Which ofcus as u have learnt is Yahweh...

Thank u my brother!!!!

haibe: Nature of man is always going to be lesser than nature of God. The bible made this clear that he being in the Form of God brought himself so low and also he was made a little lower than angels.

If he was made a little lower than angels, then angels and the father are greater than him.

But in his divine nature, he isnt lesser bro.
Jesus is an angel according to jehovah witnesses ryt? So how come the bible says he was lower than angels?

If u can answer that, you will be able to answer why jesus said the father was greater than him.

So you were saying ur mum is less human becos her husband is her head ryt? Thats cool.

Dont lets drift away 4rm our topic sha.

Oh so Jesus was made lower than angels but @ d same time according to u guys he was God incarnate.......

U guys have got to choose bro......if Jesus was made lower than angels then he was 100percent human and not God....but a perfect man @ that
.....

But if Jesus was fully God on earth then he has to explain why he didn't know when the end will come but only Yahweh did....

Let's come back to the main point....


as regards Jesus's words::The Father is greater than I am""

Jesus meant every bit of those words.......

The Father has always being greater than Jesus.......

B4 his descending to the earth and even after his ascension.....

I quoted scriptures alone from 1 corinthians to prove that...I don't know if u've decided to throw them into the dust bin.....

Those verses say Jesus will be made subject to his Father and God after handing over the kingdom the Father(Yahweh) gave him to cater for....

Jesus will be subservient to Yahweh for all eternity...

Didn't u read it from 1 corinthians??

Abi u want make I formulate scriptures come show u??

haibe: Ok i dont know if Jesus or angels are false Gods, so please tell me, are they? Yes or no

Lol....

U want me to answer that??

Common my dear bro haibe......

You should figure that out...

My Job is to tell persons on this forum that Yahweh is greater than Jesus for all eternity....

And that I have proved with scriptures...

Let me tell you one thing.....

You might think I don't see Jesus as my Lord or as some1 important in my life......

Infact if not for Jesus we wouldn't really know the person Yahweh is and what he really wants from us......

But I can't blind fold my eyes and say Jesus is equal to the person who sent Him....that's not possible....

And that's what this whole discussion is all about.......

My Job is to tell people that Jesus has a Father and God....and that we all both share the same Father and God with Jesus...

That's why Jesus aint ashamed to call us ""brothers""...

Let me read hebrews 2:10-12 from the Goodnews bible...

10.It was only right that GOD.who creates and preserves all things,should make Jesus perfect through sufferings,in order to bring many sons to share his glory.For Jesus is the one who leads them to salvation.
11. He purifies people from their sins ,and both he and those who are made pure all have the same Father.That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call us brothers.12 .He(Jesus) says to GOD(Yahweh) ""I will tell my brothers what you have done; I will praise you in their meeting""......


Don't u see it??

Its clear bro.....

haibe: Nature of man is always going to be lesser than nature of God. The bible made this clear that he being in the Form of God brought himself so low and also he was made a little lower than angels.

If he was made a little lower than angels, then angels and the father are greater than him.

But in his divine nature, he isnt lesser bro.

So you were saying ur mum is less human becos her husband is her head ryt? Thats cool.

Dont lets drift away 4rm our topic sha.

But my mum is a human,,,....

But my dad is head over her.....

Adam was b4 eve....

Na bible dey talk all these things o......

Jesus is called a morning star....

Remember??

Who is or who are morning stars...

I want to us to go deep into titles now...

Now let's confine our discussion to the heavens.....

Jesus,satan,all angels are called mornign stars...

But how do u differentiate Jesus from all of them??

Mind you:::::: Yahweh can never and is never a MORNING star.....

That title doesn't apply to Yahweh....

Let's go on a ride...

Oya haibe ....start