₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje:
So this nature of sin ,is not what you ask forgiveness for. It has to be taken away. This is the "remission" of sin nature .and you recieve a new nature of righteousness by faith.

. . . so in effect, you have re-defined the word "remission" to mean "taking away of the sinful nature"?

Joagbaje:
Yes I agree with you but forgiveness is pardon for sin, atonement is cover up of sin , the sin is still there but , repercussion is withheld. remission wipes sin of as though it never existed.

I got news for you oga.

Remission of sin = Forgiveness of sin.
"Forgiveness" wipes sin as though it never existed in the same way "Remission" does.

It would appear you're trying to create a seperate class or levels of "forgiveness":
Those whose sin nature have been "Remitted" > Those whose sins have merely been "Forgiven" - where is your scripture for this one?

[quote author=N.I.Gboi link=topic=429243.msg5892239#msg5892239 date=1271264389]@Jesoul,you say you don't go to houses of strangers.Why is someone in your church a stranger? I take it that after service in church,you pick your bible,look for your friends,chat with them and off you go. If everyone in church does that,then we all remain strangers in the house of God. The problem is not the size of the church,it is the attitude of people in the church.
The bible does not in anyway condemn large congregations. We should stop trying to twist scriptures to fit our own ideologies.[/quote]Because I do not know them personally. People that claim to be christians are plenty everywhere. I'm not going to someone's house just because they have claimed to be a christian.

  You're absolutely right "atittude" matters but if you've read through the thread, you must've seen that it is the size of churches these days that brews a lot of the problems we have. Again I have continually challenged people to show me from the bible how large churches are profitable - when infact we see just the exact opposite.

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[quote author=N.I.Gboi link=topic=429243.msg5892239#msg5892239 date=1271264389]@davidylan, reading thru some of your posts,i think that you make God seem like a God who doesn't want us to be happy. Our goal as christians is to serve God with all we are.That includes all we have. I believe that having a better spiritual life as a christian means that we are serving the most high. God is a consuming fire but also a very loving God who wants the best for us all.[/quote]I don't think David insinuated anywhere we should be living miserable lives as christians. What he is speaking against is the "prosperity movement" and "word of faith" crowd that preach blessing blessing blessing and no sacrifice. Yes we serve the Most High God, but nowhere are we promised we will live a fairy tale life - infact just the opposite again, we are told we should die to ourselves and pick up our cross.

AIRDIG:
@JeSoul et al
Are these quoted verses words spoken by Jesus to his disciple? Kindly verify this.
If not, then who speak those words. Can someone please explain.

Airdig, those ones above were written by Jesus' disciples such as Paul, Timothy etc. However, there are several other verses that could be shown here where Jesus Himself spoke from the book of John. But since DS had a problem with the book of John I decided to omit them for now.

hehe A-40, Bawo has been sent to keep you honest  Kidd "forever young" ke, he had been on the decline for a while if not for his resurgent play this season.

As for that thing up there ^^ showing a gross mental breakdown from Rasheed  I have no comment.

[quote author=Ben-10 link=topic=429243.msg5891394#msg5891394 date=1271257133]Churches are meant to be Large.[/quote]Can you prove this biblically?

[quote author=Ben-10 link=topic=429243.msg5891394#msg5891394 date=1271257133]Growth is the original purpose of the church.[/quote]Not quite, you're mixing two things.
Fellowship, communion, building and serving each other - is the purpose of church. Church is meant for christians - not the unsaved. Making disciples of all nations is the great commission of individual christians not "churches".

^^ Enigma I think it is good the WOFers are here. It is more profitable to lay out the scriptures and we all go over them from both angles and then the audience can make up their own minds for themselves.

MyJoe:
@JeSoul
A good move. I hope someone who truly believes like you do same in Lagos. People are so indoctrinated it makes you sick - "the blessings attached to tithing", "the blessing of first fruit", "prophet offering". The worst of all is the matter of morality nuclearboy speaks of. Here you have people who think that once they meet their financial obligations to "God", nothing else matters. If you try getting into a discussion with some of them about these issues, your eyes will truly open, because Joagbaje's own is a small thing.

Thanks Joe - and InesQor. I hope someone does get to it in Lagos too. But when I do get back home, by God's grace it is definitely on my agenda to accomplish. I also know one must be careful. You cannot mess around with these people's source of filthy income and not expect them to fight back, even violently. Nuclearboy's stories have been eye-popping and scary to say the least.

Joagbaje:
The lords prayer contains a formatt of great principles. We can not be reciting it as new creation. In Christ we pray by the holyghost

    are my eyes seeing what they are seeing abi na film trick? 
Jo, we should not be praying the Lord's prayer as christians? are you serious?

EDIT: and going by this line of reasoning, we can also effectively say that everything Jesus taught before His death and ressurection is not for the "new creation".

nuclearboy:
Do we just talk of these things and thats it? ANY IDEAS what we as individuals can do?

I think talking about it here is a big step, cos there are far more people reading and not posting, than there are posting. NL is a huge resource, many will be reached just by this alone. Like someone else said, also just our daily interactions with people will also be significant.

As for other ideas. This summer I'm planning on putting together a short documentary on churches in my city. I intend to interview as many pastors/church workers as will have me, challenge them with the scriptural validity of some of their practices and post it on youtube. Youtube is a HUGE resource we christians don't take advantage of enough. You can reach millions in seconds. Hopefully, it will do some good.

Repo Men.

I can readily think of a few titles that would be more fitting to describe this movie, titles like "Stoopid Men" or "The Director Must've Been Drunk" or "The Sponsors Must've Been Drunker" or "The Writers were on strike, this is the best my Chimpanzee could come up with after randomly banging against a keyboard" or "We were really going for worst script - ever!" or just plain "Sike!"

I will shortly be putting in a formal complaint to the EFCC be reimbursed for the 2 hours I wasted on this movie, and everyone who had a hand in getting it to the theater should be tortured with waterboarding. That should serve as a deterrent lest they repeat this crime.

Anyways so Repo whatever is set in a future world that has suffered through terrible economic times. The two men are employed by a company that makes all kinds of artificial organs, when people they lease these organs to default on their monthly payment, the Repo men are sent to retrieve the organs. They show up at peoples houses or wherever (aided by the tracking device in the organ), kill them, slice them up and cut out the organs and return them to the company to be used in the next person. Jude Law's character has an accident during one of his retrievals and ends up needing an artificial organ himself. He refuses to return to cutting people up, and when he cannot pay for his own he becomes the hunted.

Don't let the synopsis fool you, the whole thing was flat and boring. The glaring absence of the police or law to allow them to just go around killing people was never explained. The way characters popped in and out was disjointed. The stupid accent was annoying. The "finish this" scene that was major in the previews was one of the emptiest and fakest I've seen. If a bark from a toothless dog was ever translated into picture, that scene would be it.

The only good thing about the movie was the end. And no, I don't mean that sarcastically. The end was unexpected and slightly alleviated the bitter taste that was already in my mouth. Notwitstanding that preceeding scene that was supposed to be a harmless scanning of their organs, that was somehow sinisterly turned into a very strange, sloppy and disturbing se.x scene. This movie is a black mark on the acting careers of all the participants.

Overall, I rate 15%. If not for Vesc, it woulda been 20%.

noetic16:


Jesoul its your turn to be twisted and turned by deepsight

Don't mind DS. He cleverly didn't answer my question but sought to turn my own table on me lol. We shall get at the root of the matter soon . . . stay tuned.

^ Au contraire, I take the scripture verses pretty much[i] literally[/i]. So no, your position is not similar to mine - poetically or symbolically.

So what's the verdict? is this

JeSoul:
You choose to view every verse that speaks of Jesus being God - as symbolic?

-and on the flip side-

You[i] choose[/i] view every verse that may suggest He is not God - as literal?

your position or not? we shall get into what mine is in just a bit.

^^ awesome, I'm glad you put in some work on those verses, tanka. So in a nutshell based on the above, and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you:

You choose to view every verse that speaks of Jesus being God - as symbolic?

-and on the flip side-

You[i] choose[/i] view every verse that may suggest He is not God - as literal?

What Vesc? its only microscopic? after all that hard work? this is a sad day for me.

Oya JK, select a movie, any one will do, whether I don see am or not, I have to empty some seriously sour grapes from recent events in reality and pseudo-reality. (dam producers of 24, dam!)

     

As of yesterday, 24 ceased to be my favorite show. Fringe now has my undivided love and attention. Gosh, do they have to kill everyone off all the time?    I'm really ticked they killed off Renee, yes the show is built on shock factor but this was not necessary. They might as well kill off Chole and his granddaughter while they're at it. My monday night just opened up.

Useless set of blood thirsty writers 

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=344420.msg5884883#msg5884883 date=1271176141]@Jesoul
Not so sure sista! My problem with Nash is he doesn't play at the other end of the floor plus he is a bit older and younger and stronger guards like Paul,Williams,Kidd,Billups,Parker would chew him raw on the defensive end plus Kobe and Lebron are also playmakers and would help with ball handling duties[/quote]Well someone forgot to tell Nash that he is old . He is the best PG in the league this year (11 ast per game!) while his juniors are frequently sidelined nursing injuries. For that 5 I will take Nash. If there wasn't a Lebron or Kobe to provide solid defense and rebounding, then I will go with Williams. But for that line-up, Nash's passing skills - not scoring or rebounding - is what is needed.

Brandon Roy may miss the playoffs. Hehehe i want the Blazers

The Blazers are cursed, simply put. If I were a draft hopeful, I would fast and pray the blazers don't draft me.

^^ Dr Ken Matto, awesome piece. I agree that these methods used and even taught in christian schools, cannot be biblically defended. I've even opened a topic on this in the past (cannot find the yeye link with this yeye google search). But yeah, this "decisionism" practice is rampant in church circles, scarcely will you find a church that doesn't practice it.

Anyways, few comments.
"Does God call you or do you call God?" I believe it is both. Just like it is possible for Jesus to be both God and yet man, and the bible was written by God and yet man, it is also possible that God calls us but yet we also call on Him.

God calls us:
- Jn 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
- 2 Thes 2:14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
- Acts 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

We call on God:
- Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
- Rom 10:13 for, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
- Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him

^you no see the "scoring-wise" disclaimer I put there Kobe has been shooting like a scrub lately, I'm just covering all the bases jare. lol.

Give Durant 2 years. He will be making all-nba teams until he retires.

Chrisbenogor:
@Jesoul
Haba have you forgotten so soon? That time we were almost tying the knot and you told me your great grandpapa nor gree make we marry because of my atheistic charming accent that used to send you to cloud 9 na? Is this the remix version of the story?

Hehe, me I no remember that one oh! Na someone else, my great granpa was long gone by the time I arrived

Deep Sight:
Raised a gracious gentleman who would never ignore a lady's inquiries.

gracias

If you will read the greek in which Jn 1:1 was written, you will see that it does  not suggest tthat Jesus was God. Jn. 1:1 contains a mistranslation.

Aside this, the Gospel of John was written more than a century after Christ died and it is clear that the human tendency to worship spiritual leaders had begun to set in; which is why that gospel singularly contains more allussions to divinity that the synoptics.

Okay. Let us stipulate that Jn 1 has been corrupted and we throw that out as evidence.

What say you about these other verses,

~ones that speak to Jesus being God: (note I have omitted all verses from John since you don't ascribe any form of credibility to that book)

-1 Tim 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

-Heb 1:6 But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever

-Col 2:9 For in Christ Jesus, there is the fullness of God in bodily form

-Phil 2:5 "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He aexisted in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man

-2 Pet 1:1 To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

-Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus

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~ones that speak to seperate parts of the Trinity

-1 Cor 12:4-6 "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.  And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.  And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

-2 Cor 13:14 "The grace of the[b] Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit[/b], be with you all."

-Eph 4:4-7 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.  7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

-1 Pet. 1:2 according to the[b] foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ[/b] and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.

-Jude 20-21 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

^^ just to mention a few. Is it your position that all these verses from the corresponding books are also illegitimate books in the bible? And going by the above, does it seem so outlandish and far-fetched that anyone would believe that Jesus is God? and that He is a part of the Trinity? can you at least admit that it is not an unreasonable position to hold by any stretch?

. . . so quiet in here lol. This is the calm before the storm that are the playoffs. Oya people make your predictions.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=344420.msg5868880#msg5868880 date=1270940281]@All
Since playoffs start next week why don't y'all drop and gimme your starting fives or your legit regular season all stars, it has to be a combo of East and West

Mine are:
Deron Williams (Jazz)
Kobe Bryant (Lakers)
Lebron James (Cavaliers)
Dirk Nowitzki (Mavericks)
Dwight Howard (Magic)[/quote]Deron Williams would not work well with Kobe and Lebron becos he's not a pure assist guy like Nash. Which is why I'll replace him with Nash for PG. My five:

Steve Nash - dish the ball round evenly and control the pace of the game
LeBron James - all round defense and offense, instant double team maker=more shots for others
Dwight Howard - Center, protect the paint guy
Kobe Bryant - (interchangeable with Kevin Durant, scoring-wise)
Dirk Nowitzki - Perimeter guy, down 3s and spread the floor

Jroy please continue here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-429416.0.html

Chrisbenogor:
how come the regulars here never ever say anything about their lives? for all we know this could be a regular oh!
Jesoul abi na you?

lol, Chris you nor well. How we know say e no be you?

Zikkyy:
There is no guarantee that you will not have similar issues with smaller gatherings. You could even have class issues here. What stop a gathering of well-to-dos from excluding the very poor from sharing in their expensive wines and food. There is the risk that such gathering could even metamorphose into social/political/business clubs where deals are finalized.

Indeed there isn't as we already see even the early church had many many issues. As long as we're human beings, we will fall short. But I hold that in a smaller group where the people know, care for and love each other truly, there'll be far less incidences of such.

davidylan:
It makes me question one thing - what is the major incentive for making churches so large? Money or souls?

Zikkyy:
Money, Power/Influence, my church is bigger than yours metality Definitely not for the souls.

Gbam left right and center. We all know the vast majority of them are in competition with one another.

ogajim:
Some Pastors have turned the "Church" into a kalo kalo business, the bigger and shinier the hall is, the more customers you attract.

This is unfortunately true. If you use glitter to get them there, you'll have to keep using glitter to keep them there.

noetic16:
So true. I am sure KunleOshob will do justice to this aspect of the discourse.

Hehe, he will be here soon.

unfortunately I dont.

Then pray and actively seek for it. And I'm sure David would be willing to straighten you up should the situation arise lol. But honestly, I don't know how I would do without my family of believers, we're so close and do so much for each other. Until you have that, you'll be missing a very blessed and necessary aspect of the walk.

Oh dear . . .    David especially, I won't be responsible for any strokes or heart attacks you may suffer as a result of this next article:


Church offers a worship alternative for Cowboys

WENDELL -- The floor is covered in sawdust, the seats are lawn chairs, and the fragrant smells of livestock are in the air.

Magnolia Cowboy Church isn't your average place of worship. The church, which meets in a horse barn just across the Johnston County line from Wendell, is geared toward folks who don't feel comfortable getting dressed up for church on Sunday mornings. In fact, the church holds services on Monday evenings. "Cowboy church is really for the unchurched," said Ronnie Richardson, who hadn't been to church in 20 years before he joined Magnolia. "A lot of people, they feel funny going to a regular church."

Magnolia offers a low-key service, with hymns led by two men strumming guitars and the congregation singing along softly. Prayers are the only time hats come off, and church members feel at ease sharing praises for events like the birth of a colt or prayer requests for friends in need. "It's more like a family," Steve Bullock said, noting that he was a nonbeliever for years. "I feel very comfortable in this church."

Though the church is affiliated with the Johnston County Baptist Association and the message comes straight from the Bible, Pastor Danny Blackburn and lay preachers try to make the lessons more relevant to horse lovers. The church held an Easter sunrise service on Sunday, but its regular Monday evening services are a nod toward those who spend weekends at horse shows and rodeos. Last week, Blackburn preached about Jesus' arrival in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. But the sermon focused heavily on the meaning of Jesus' mode of transportation - a borrowed donkey.

"A horse is a war transporter, but coming in on a donkey, that was coming in peace," Blackburn told the congregation as he stood behind the makeshift wooden pulpit, sporting a cowboy hat and plaid shirt. "Riding on a donkey was a way to proclaim himself king." And equines aren't just talked about at Magnolia - sometimes they even attend the services. Earlier this month, Blackburn brought his horse along and preached from the saddle. The church got started almost four years ago.

Founder Chris Brancheau had heard about the cowboy church movement, which has numerous affiliates around the state and country, and wanted to have a local ministry for "horse people," she said. An acquaintance told her about Frances Henderson's Magnolia Plantation Horse Farm. Brancheau knew immediately that the name was a sign. The services started meeting amid the horse stalls, but that got to be cold in winter, so they built the walls of a chapel in one corner of the barn. Henderson was supportive of the project but had no interest in attending. "She said, 'You can meet here, but don't expect me to come,'" Brancheau recalled. These days, Henderson is one of the church's most active members. She's one of many who've been brought back to religion through Cowboy Church, and many don't even own horses or farm.

"There are people in here whose lives are definitely changed," Brancheau said.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/04/05/421792/this-barn-is-sacred.html

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One has to wonder . . . are they worshipping God or their horses?

noetic16:
by measuring growth . . . I refer to the great commission itself. . . . .which is to continuously make disciples.

Cool. So I contend the church should not be concerning herself with "how many people have been converted" but rather preaching the undiluted gospel and those who will be saved, will be saved.

 I personally immensely dislike when I hear an evangelist or preacher declare (usually pridefully) that "1000 people gave their lives to Christ" at this crusade or "350 teenagers made a commitment to Jesus" at the altar call etc . . . is the evangelist God? how does he know if those people are truly saved? I think when churches throw out these numbers they do so to "make themselves feel good" and say "see, our church is growing" - when it shouldn't be about that at all.

Honestly, I do as the spirit directs. I have no loyalty to any church. There was a time I was asked to worship at KICC for a while . . . .while I disliked the way every sermon was ended with a demand for "seed" , , .God would always tell me to shut up and just listen to the message. I was recently told not to go there again.

Forgive the prodding. But do you have a group of believers that can hold you accountable? Iron sharpens iron. You need to be grounded or rooted in a fellowship of brethen, that you love and serve and build-up, and they love and serve and build you up too. That's the purpose of church.

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aletheia:
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

^ one of many examples of house churches in the NT.

Noetic, you have answered your own question as David just pointed out.

The fact that the vast majority of churches have departed from the biblical standard set by the early church does not mean we who are aware should follow suit. There are still small churches doing right. There are still cells of believers who meet in their houses or local YMCA spaces and have fellowship where they can know each other and bear each other's burdens and be in true fellowship.

noetic16:
Jesoul, unless we reconstruct the early church, there is no point of a small fellowship gathering.

We don't have to re-construct it Noetic, just follow in their example. Several people (including myself) have already stated here how they meet with other believers in homes and have studies and fellowship. We don't have to settle for the mass produced re-packaged system of churches that are all about glory and no sacrifice, that we are surrounded with today.

Jesoul, I tried to and on two occasions got my fingers burnt.

hehe you nor well lol.

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noetic16:
how then do u measure growth?

Is "measuring church growth" a part of the great commission? when did Jesus or any of the apostles ever have the need to count how many followers they had?

what happens if u minister to people and they get saved. . . .would u tell them to go and worship somewhere else because u dont want to be a big church?.

You're mixing two things.
Church is not for the unsaved but for the brethren to come together and encourage and strengthen each other. We're supposed to go out and make disciples, who in turn go out and make more disciples and naturally these christians would be attracted to other christians and begin their own "church" whereever they are.

Biblical churches actually grew FYI, and there was no restriction to their sizes.

This is very true. But you must admit the bible is replete with examples of christians meeting in each others homes and fellowshipping.

noetic16:
u would be shocked to find out that there are more unsaved persons in the church than the saved. That explains why knowing them would bring about negative influences IMO.

actually that trend has become the norm rather than the exception. It is sad. My question to you is why remain in the local church if it is not a biblically functioning one?

noetic16:
@ OP

Small churches bring about[b] unnecessary familiarity[/b].

The early church that met in each others homes and shared their properties and dedicated their lives to one another - uneccesary familiarity? Jesus told us to bear one another's burdens and love each other - how can we do that if we don't know each other?
 

Big churches have several doctrine problems. . , but it helps to just worship and disappear without anyone noticing.

Noetic, you may want to re-read what you just wrote, hopefully you may recognize that it appears you do not know the purpose for gathering together and having church in the first place.

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Oh David here's the link if you want it http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=20031015&id=tKokAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jHADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6493,4315061

^^ I couldn't find that church website (and btw looks like "movie churches" have seriously multiplied over the past few yrs) but David here's some ammunition for your bible study. I found this article online:

Some excerpts:

"Its naturally different because we meet in a huge theater," he said, adding that the setting, "actually helps people to see God as part of their every day lives"

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 Attendees are told that there will be no assigned times to stand or sit at this service; they should feel free to do whatever moves them at the moment

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Congregation member Karen Hart puts one more in mind of an entrant in a karaoke contest than a choir director as she leads the crowd in contempoary pop hymns

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As for Drent, he does not so much preach as talk to those in attendance about what they can do to make their spiritual lives better and happier

thanks for the response DS

Deep Sight:
I understand "the Father" to be a reference to God.

Okay.

Jesus Christ is a late human being. A proven mere mortal. Doubtless a messenger of God, but no more eminent than any other messenger of God such as Moses. Why should i presuppose him to be in any "trinity" with almighty God? You might as well suppose the Buddha, Mohammad, the Dalai Lama, Confucius, Lao Tze, Guru Maharaji and Olumba Olumba Obu to be part of the Godhead as well? ? ?

So what is your explanation of John 1 -
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God . . .
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.  

 I am interested in your take on this scripture where we're clearly told Jesus was the Word, and the Word was God and the Word was at the same time - with God.

btw have a safe flight wherever you're jetting off to

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Bobbyaf:
When the bible speaks of "One God", what is it saying? Its speaking to the concept of unity among the members of the Deity. Jesus Himself also alluded to it as well, when He said to His disciples, "I and the Father are One"

Did He say that He and the Father are the same? Absolutely not. Being One and the same are two different matters.

Lol, thank you oh!

InesQor:
Housefellowships are mainly a devious ploy to extend church services (roughly 3 or 4 per week already) further, and to generate more offerings and tithes even in the people's comfort zones. They know it will be hard to be absent. Its not done right, IMHO.

davidylan:
lol even in the bible study i attend they have offering time too. Amazing.

Kai are you guys serious? offerings at house fellowships too? what the heck?