₦airaland Forum

MyJoe:
@ All
Here is something I will now like to ask everyone: How do we know God inspired everything in the present Bible?

I think you may be asking the right question in the wrong manner . . .

How do we know God inspired the current bible? we as a collective body of people cannot know (or should I rather say prove) to we's satisfaction and beyond all doubt that the bible came from God. It wasn't meant to work that way I don't think.

How do I/you know God inspired the current bible? by my/your faith - borne and strengthened out of experiences - spiritual or physical - that affirm to only that person that knowledge. And if you arrive at the conclusion that the bible is not inspired by God, that is fine too. The bible does say some will accept Christ as the way, and many will not.

We have already established that the Holy Spirit may not have preserved the Bible in tact for us, hence the possibility that copyists and translators have messed up a few things. Now, the RCC may have included materials, perhaps entire books, that ought not to be there. I don’t know if any of you have read the Gospel of Barnabas which mentions Mohammed by name as the messenger to come after Christ. I have. Going by its contents, it was clearly written by some scholar with an Islamopolitical agenda in Spain sometime in the 14th century. How do we know that similar material written in times past are not included in the Bible? We already know the gospels were written long after the events they contain.

Simply put, we don't. In addition lemme highlight a point InesQor made earlier . . . as a general rule, a christian can accept any writing - from this age or those gone, that are not in contradiction to the gospel as revealed by the bible. So in essence if it doesn't stand in opposition to the bible, then I have no problem with it. Whether or not it was of divine inspiration will be besides the point.

Consider also the fact that two of the gospels, Mark and John, if I remember well, have certain parts that are not accepted by all Christians because they were omitted from some ancient manuscripts.

Yeah I'm aware of a few portions. I recall reading them and thinking - what's the big deal? lol. They don't necessarily take away nor add anything of earth-shattering proportions either way.

 This is why I said sometimes we get hung up on the wrong things and clutch onto that signpost Imhotep spoke about.

You know how the adherents of the Grail Message approach the Bible, which has caused some heated arguments in this forum: They take verse 1 and accept it in its entirety. Take verse 2 and reject it in its entirety. Take verse 3 and accept it but giving it an interpretation that checks with either the personal experience of the person or his understanding of the contents of the Grail Message. I must say this approach appears to me to be much more sensible than that adopted by Christians of accepting the entire Bible, with the implication of swallowing the spiritually dangerous stuff that may have been interpolated by people with some agenda in times past.

But wouldn't that be blaming the text - instead of the people who abused the text for their own sinister purposes? A text in and of itself is harmless - its what we do with it that counts. Shouldn't we blame ourselves for wrongly handling the word? I say picking which parts to accept is even more dicey. I'll go into that a lil more in my next post.

MyJoe, will be back in a jiff to reply your last post.

InesQor:
Thanks JeSoul. I'm getting The Book of Eli ASAP.

Please do! It truly is the most powerful expression of faith I've personally seen in any movie and it is done so well and in a contemporary manner that we all can relate to. I hope enough people see it that I can even open a thread and discuss it. So much of what we're talking about here is in it.

And infact self after the movie was over, the entire theatre of mostly teenagers, who are notorious for noise making (and don't really come to pay attention) erupted in applause, an applause that was strangely emotional and appreciative of what they'd just seen, even I who enjoyed it immensely was suprised it touched them like that.

---

imhotep:
LOL. . .then prepare for more shocking posts from me. . . LOL. . .

hehe, I am prepared.

Yes O. . . contact with intense suffering has a way of making one re-value all that one held sacrosanct. No wonder Jesus said, "The poor and the needy you will ALWAYS have with you. . . " . God hides in the [suffering] human heart, and that is the last place we usually think of looking for Him. . .

So so sooooo true.
 

Like I said months ago, I have never felt so challenged as when I had to stand in front of so many deformed and poor lepers to preach . . .about the goodness of God. . .

Oga, if you're willing and able, can you open a thread and talk about this? I am sure many people would benefit.

Interesting. I love movies too, but sometimes I get home so tired out that I cannot concentrate on any movie. I will look out for "The Book of Eli", and also for "Avatar". . . thanks for reminding me

You're in for a treat! see my reply to InesQor.

InesQor:
@JeSoul: Thanks sis, for the above!

I'll take that as a sign I have your permission to continue on this thread muchos gracias.

imhotep:
I'm doing great. Glad that you remember our earlier conversations. I like the new incarnation of myself too. . .though I tend to SHOCK many more people with the things I say. . . LOL

Lol shock is good. I like shock. We get too comfortable all the time thinking "we got this already". And yes, really. I was inspired by those tales, most especially reminded of Jesus words that talk is not only just cheap, but close to worthless. I learned that to love a person moves mountains within their soul - than to assault him with words of 'knowledge' that will barely shift a grain.

Beautiful scene. . . You are not far from Nirvana . . . . That Matrix film is more about spirituality than about science.

So right about the Matrix. So many nuggets. I'm a movie buff so I frequently learn a ton from the screen. Have you seen "The Book of Eli"?  Powerful movie about faith.

 and speaking of which MyJoe have you seen the Book of Eli either? I think it will communicate a ton of truth about faith where I'm failing to do so.

MyJoe:

This won't do at all. I want the pepetual motion machine now! Getting tired of buying diesel.  

I'll speak to my superiors, we'll see what we can do  

I was talking about Paul saying we please God by faith, while James says it is by work. I don't really want to dwell much on the contradiction thing here, as it will only bog us down in lengthy arguments.

But they don't say different things. Paul says its by faith, James simply says that that faith that doesn't result in works is not really faith.

I have stated my problem with accepting things by faith in my response to noetic16. I think faith creates all sorts of problems and is simply out of reach to those who like to take a practical approach. I think faith is dangerous. Some ground has to be established first. There should be a prima facie case on which faith is to be built upon.

You are right "faith" can be dangerous as many people and establishments are going about doing all manner of things and claiming faith as the basis. But the fact the concept of "faith" has been abused doesn't mean its not still valid.

  Anyways. . . . speaking of the "practical approach" and establishing some ground first. I'm not sure how we can go about exactly doing that. I mentioned before that we're all different, all have different experiences and all perceive the same thing differently. Is it really possible that we can establish a "common ground"? Lemme explain some more . . .

I say my belief in God and the bible is extremely practical - for me. Why? because my faith is strengthened and solidified by experiences I cannot reproduce and transmit to you, so that you can feel and understand as I do and hence know why I believe what I believe. But it is real to me, and therefore as practical as it gets. Which is why I said before there is no one singular, universal template or blueprint that everyone can equally use, and that will produce equally similar results. Belief in God is an extremely personal, intimate journey - one which we must all go alone.

  and faith (as bastardized as it has been) is absolutely central to everything. Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God

Lol, for real Ep 12 was the ish.

I couldn't contain my laughter, see Hastings running in what seemed like slow mo with his big belly sticking out shouting "security! security!!" ROTFLOL  finally some use for the guy 

Krayola:
hello Jeseoul. how body?

Body dey oh my brother. I was just kicking myself yesterday cause I realized I didn't reply your last holla. It is on the way . . . btw I saw on the other thread about ur aunt, please accept my deepest regards.

One day I will have time and open a thread where we will sit down with fanta and stickmeat and analyse the long list of confusion in Buddhism.  

lol, I saw the thread where DS said he was out . . . who will speak for the Buddhists?

InesQor:
@Imhotep: By the way, I have very strong cause to believe you are a Christian who is starting to get "open-minded" about his faith. I'm just saying, and you don't need to reply or accept or deny this.

Imhotep and I go waaaay back, right Imhotep . I like the guy too much. He went away for a while and came back and I like this new incarnation of him lol. Much more reflective, almost completely stripped of the doctrine I knew about him.

imhotep:
LOL !! Jesoul, Happy new year. How is work and everything?

Sir I am well and happy to see you are well . Indeed you inspired me some with your tales of service when we last conversed. I trust all else is going fine with you?

This your post reminded me of a Zen Buddhist parable ==>

Two Zen monks were arguing about a flag:

FIRST MONK: "The flag is moving."

SECOND MONK: "No. . . the wind is moving the flag"

MASTER [to the two monks] "Not wind. Not flag. Mind is moving."

. . . hehe and your parable reminds me of this scene in the Matrix.

Child is bending a spoon with his mind
Neo is watching and approaches the child
Child: do not try and bend the spoon because that's impossible
         instead only try and realize the truth
Neo: What truth?
Child: there is no spoon
Neo: there is no spoon?
Child: then you'll see its not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself

[flash=400,300]http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/YXKFTzlBziI[/flash]

How you dig my type of parable? 

Agatha, yes I'm aware of all those other things.

However, supposing Obama was truly born in Kenya but migrated to the US as a toddler when he was still yay high and didn't know jack. What difference should that make from someone who was actually born on the soil?

They can modify the law and make room for "immigrated to the US before you were 1yr old" or something like that. Ditto for Prez -[quote author=pres-elect link=topic=410746.msg5683226#msg5683226 date=1268448769]sorry jesoul, the rule should not be removed, ortherwise some crook from africa can loot all his country's money and come and get entangled with moneybags in the US who are ready to use anybody to get what they want. i suspebt that rule was made bc of alexander hamilton who was born in the carribeans and who was strongly behind the creation of the US that some peeps suspected he wanted to be a ruler of some sort[/quote]

now jesoul, i'm the conservative

Yeah right! lol

Uh oh . . . should I retreat in fear or is it safe to come out?

Vesc elope with JK? lol don't let the inter fanatic see that oh! you wan put me for trouble.

Nuclearboy,

  abeg stop playing jor, senior for where? Infact sef I shoulda asked permission from you and InesQor before posting on this thread 

imhotep:
So. . . THERE IS CONFUSION . . .

. . .And if there IS CONFUSION, then either we QUESTION the authors of the books of the bible, OR [God Forbid!] we QUESTION the Holy Spirit . . .

OR . . .

we question[b] ourselves[/b].

MyJoe:
I’m doing great. How’s Fringe Science shaping up - discovered how to run cars on water yet? That's the kind of Fringe Science I want to hear!  

hehe, even better. We're working on re-opening the doorway to the alternate universe, and seeing the other versions of ourselves. What life choices our other selves made and how they turned out - should be interesting  
 

Well, there is something I learnt as a kid: that the Holy Spirit (1) inspired the Bible (2) preserved it for us to ensure it reaches us error-free. You don’t seem to buy 2?

Yeah, I guess I don't buy 2. "Preserved it for us" is a dicey statement. Newer versions these days are so watered down and have become loose paraphrases of the original that while it may make it easier to understand, it frequently strips the power away. I guess the KJV is as close to "preserved" as we have.

It is convenient to put “bible contradictions” under the Error Category, don’t you think? I think this can apply in a situation where Matthew and Luke report an event with minor differences in details but not when Paul tells us that faith is the most important thing we need and James tells us it is work. There is a measure of consistency in the Bible – there are things you find in the beginning that you find towards the end. But there is also a good deal of contradictions.

lol, it is my brotha, it is. However note I said "usually fall under that category" not "always fall under that category".

 I think you have answered your question - analogy of the elephant. I don't see how the case can be made though that Paul or James are preaching different or contradictory gospels from their counterparts Luke, Matt and John. I think InesQor has touched on this a bit in his reply. It would help if you could post a few problematic verses that we can take a look at?

---

MyJoe:
When we talk of the inspiration of the Bible, there are two possibilities: (1) That God dictated it. (2) That God revealed it to chosen servants. 2 is usually generally accepted among Christians.

Given that we are talking about men, who will see based on their environment, beliefs and deep seated biases as attested to in your posts (also refer to the analogy of the elephant in post # 7) how can we trust what they wrote as the true revelation of God? Does this not account for the seeming contradictions in the Bible, and, indeed, between religions? Indeed, why should we take the Bible as special if it passed through men who added their colouring when writing? I mean, if Paul and James see things differently from the same source, why isn't it reasonable to believe that Daniel and Lao Tse received inspirations from the same source but saw things differently which would lead us to the conclusion that Christianity and Daoism are as the same as Baptists and Methodists?

InesQor has already done a good job on this, lemme just add a lil bit

The human in me really likes this a lot, I mean a lot. But the christian in me quickly reminds that christianity and the bible makes an unabashed declaration that it is in sole possession of the way, and that way is Jesus Christ. The bible is monopolistic in this declaration and asserts without room for compromise that this declaration is unnegotiable. So if Daoism fundamentally preaches a way other than Christ, it couldn't have come from the same source. One is right and the other wrong.

It is very important to note that the scriptures also tell us that the Spirit of Christ has been at work long long before the physical man Jesus Christ was made manifest on earth. So I don't believe God exclusively spoke only to the Jews. Infact we see many instances divine commendation of gentile men and women of great faith and belief in the bible.

And as to why I choose to believe the bible over other texts, the answer is very simple - by Faith. I don't know which other materials out there came from God, and honestly I cannot see myself bothering with figuring that out - when I know I have not accomplished with godly consistency the very simple task of loving God and my neighbor as myself. We have smaller, more elusive fish to fry. So this is why, for me, questions like whether the book of John was actually written by the disciple John could not be more insignificant. To focus on things like that I believe, is to miss the point entirely. For me, the potency or validity of the gospel is not hinged upon whether not it can be "more probably" or "more likely" shown to be true. For me, it just is - by faith.

Myjoe wassup dude?
You got my position half right. Lets clarify shall we?

MyJoe:
Proposition 1. That the Bible is free of any form of error.

Yes, I believe the bible in its original form/text/document/scroll is free from error. However, what we have today are copies of the originals and yes, there appears to be few copyist errors in the current versions we have today.

  A noteworthy comment to attach to the above. These transcriptional errors are minor, about what? 1% of the entire book I think and the usual "bible contradictions" flaunted by antagonists as grounds for dismissal usually fall under this category. When one takes an honest look at the entire bible as a whole body of work, it is very consistent, harmonious and robust, worthy of our trust.

Proposition 2. That the Bible is complete in every aspect; that is, we do not need anything else in our attempt to make sense of God, ontology, the cosmos, origins, death and the afterlife, spirituality, and anything else.

This part is loaded and I'll do my best to answer properly. The bible is sufficiently equipped to meet all those spiritual needs you mentioned, but at the same time, it is not, exactly. 4 points:

1 - Not every single situation, or scenario is captured in the bible. However, we are given general godly principles and standards by which we can govern our lives by. General points on the compass by which we can use to navigate the murky waters that is life. So when an issue arises that may not be spelt in black and white (or red) we can use these principles to decide what is right. And this leads me to point 2. . .

2 - The bible, unfortunately, is subject to the sometimes right, sometimes wrong, sometimes in-between interpretation of flawed men - and ALL of us are flawed. What I may read to mean X, you may read to mean Z. So in essence the bible may be saying one thing, but we may interpret it to mean another. In that, the moral of such a verse can be diluted beyond recognition or even lost entirely.
  b. As a side note, there is one interpretation for a verse, but (possibly) different applications of such a verse (as if there weren't enough wrenches in the system already lol)

3 - Thirdly, where the bible "falls short", or should I say, where we fall short, is where the Holy Spirit shines most. Jesus taught that He had to leave so that the HolySpirit would come to "guide us into all things". So though everything may not be in the bible, a christian walks[b] by the spirit[/b] and this Spirit is what guides a christian into all truth - including how to rightly handle the bible.
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

4 - Finally, And what about those who are not "bible scholars"? cannot understand the scriptures as well as more educated people? who are in the middle of the amazon jungle or a small village in Vietnam and just have a rudimentary grasp of the person of Jesus and his sacrifice? just enough of a grasp to know all they need do is simply love God and their neighbor. What about them that cannot etymologically dissect verses with surgical precision like several here on NL? what should they do? is the God of the bible only for smarties? only for learned schooled people?

Which is why I don't think God intended for everything pertaining to living to be captured in the bible for us to follow word for word or that it is do or die without the bible. In addition, many lived in the OT and served God without any bible to follow and they did just fine. His laws are written on our hearts (Romans 2). And also because of our nature, this would lead to a legalistic sort of living that we see in so many churches today - don't drink alcohol, women cannot preach, cannot listen to 'worldy' music etc etc. I mean even with those few issues see how divided we are, talkless if there were many more like that. We are called to live by faith - even as we've been given grace. And while Jesus is the mediator between man and God, we're all different, all have different experiences and all take different paths to get to the ultimate truth that is God. There is no one single template or blueprint on how to go about this.

 
 I hope I did the questions sufficient justice?   so,

MyJoe:
[s]JeSoul: 1, yes. 2. I don’t know her answer[/s]

Jesoul: 1, yes and no. 2, yes and no. 

Even if it was a forgery so what?

The rule that one cannot run for president if you weren't born on American soil is an outdated one and should be wiped off the books.

Lol . . . dude, you're not serious

montelik:
Are u serious? You do know that Canada hasn't always had nationalized health care. In fact at the time Palin and her family went there, there was nothing resembling the current nationalized health care system they have. Do you think Venezuela has always been a socialist country, or even Cuba? You have already confessed your bias in a previous thread so I understand why you may see things this way.

But for the sake of argument let say that Canada did have nationalized health care at the time. Palin was only 5 years old. How do you suppose the actions of the parents of a 5 years old child, prove the hypocrisy and shamelessness of the full grown adult they have now become.

As for the irony that is obvious to anybody. In recent times it has been said that many Canadians come down to the US to receive health care. Palin is pointing out that when she was young it seemed it was the other way round. But I guess Liberals who can't stand the woman wouldn't get the irony of it. 

Kai! Prez, Montelik really handed it to you 

Seriously though, posting misleading quotes taken out of context is a rampant disease plaguing partisan politics. I know both sides do it A LOT. I think it cheapens the discourse immensely and we (myself included) should try to always get the full story - in context.

---

montelik:
In recent times it has been said that many Canadians come down to the US to receive health care.

davidylan:
the typical reichwing ignorance . . . the HCR bill is NOT about quality of health care but ACCESS and AFFORDABILITY. No one is arguing that America does not have the world's best health care . . . available only to the rich.

David this is a classic example of how you respond - somewhat disjointed - to many posts here in politics.

-Montelik simply said "many canadians come to the US to receive healthcare" - shikena.

-You replied saying "typical right wing ignorace, the HC bill is about access and affordability".

    Does anyone else see the disconnect? You're fighting a point with him he didn't even raise or hint at - instead you're assuming for him that he doesn't believe or know the HC bill is about access and affordability. Na wa for you oh.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=344420.msg5678779#msg5678779 date=1268402166]@Jesoul
Lolz you guys might be dragging for 4th with the Hawks and thats not a good look but what was your front office thinking? Cavs are trading for Jamison and y'all are acquiring Finley you guys could use a younger frontcourt but what am i saying my team has old players too lets just see how it goes when the playoffs come[/quote]Please help me wonder. When I heard I was like . . . . what the hell? we should be trying to get younger and more athletic not older and more geriatric. Nate Robinson has not made as big an impact himself too . . . they think because they are the "celtics" they can simply beat others, but other teams are not bending over anymore. They KNOW they can beat the Celtics in their current weak version.

chiogo:
Ha, didn't even watch the game yesterday, didn't know they were playing. Saved myself the heartache.

lol, lucky you.

bawomolo:
its the clippers, you can give them the no.1 pick for the next three seasons and they would find a way to mess up

Hehe. I hear they're trying to make a push for Lebron . . . . pause . . . re-read . . .  and laugh uncontrollably wonders shall never end.

I'm not sure why Ganjaseed is being criticized.

The fella did some good ol' fashioned detective work by going to ground zero and investigating for himself. Instead of taking popular opinion from faceless posts on the internet he went to verify for himself. This is how journalism awards are earned and won. Ganja abeg kudos jare.

---

Joagbaje:
So whats the big deal about financial partnership? are you not ashame to bring your greed to the public. How would you expect the ministry to run the different arm such as internet ministry, Free Rhapsody, Loveworld TV.

Did Jesus (or any of the apostles for that matter) establish  "different arms" of ministry? so that they needed to collect more and more money from people? No.

Do you know how many billion the devil is using today to sponsor evil on the media. Partnership is biblical. Jesus collected money from several people for his ministry.

Fantastic. Now all you have to do is show us just one verse from the bible where "Jesus collected money from several people". Just one verse will suffice.

We must continually give for works of ministry.

Amen. No christian will disagree with that.

noetic16:
Normally I would naturally interpret the verse as u and David have done. . . . . . but my unsuccessful attempt to link these visions to biblical prophecies was what made me settle for my position on this. . . . I maintain my indifference.

But why try to do that? Perhaps your dreams were not necessarily meant to overlap with anything we have been given in the bible?

I did not call this a revelation. . .all I did was to ask a simple question here.

I only shared this under the anonymity ofthe internet. . . . .this are visions I have shared with no one. my expectation at sharing was that perhaps I might meet one or two others who have seen heard something similar in the spirit realm. . . . . I guess I am walking alone.

No problem brotha. I wasn't trying to "critique" your dreams at all. Just a tad bit curious about them.
Walking alone? not by a long stretch, in the truest sense of the words.

noetic16:
These visions have been explained to me by the Lord Himself and they are to be taken in the literal sense, . . . .I will reserve further comments on that.
but why did I share it in the first place? . . .I shared it largely because of what I have been experiencing. . .which is hearing from God.
I was never taught to do so. . I find it strange and impossible. . . . .the things I have heard, I cannot repeat most of them, the things I have seen I cannot describe. . .my hope was that perhaps there was someone else out there who has heard some things I have heard and seen some things I have seen. . .thats the only reason I posted the vision, . . . .There are several others, but I guess they are only for personal consumption.

Well, you've put it "out there" now. I suppose if by chance or providence such a soul stumbles here, they will react to your words with much more spiritual affection than I have .

Deep Sight:
but the summary is that all[ things are rational, have a construct, are reasonable and that it is absolutely impossible for a pure illogoicality to exist. Rather the limits of our knowledge may constrain us from understanding the rationale for certain things.

Oh dear. If only you would apply this concession when condemning and declaring certain elements of the christian faith irrational dogma. I mean I hear this disclaimer below:

I believe all spiritual truth should be viewed with the test of reason and that this may help in sifting the wheat from the chaff: the intelligible from the unintelligible

but still, there is a huge MAY HELP in there. There are observable limits to the efficacy of your "test of reason", limits that are no doubt a handicap in understanding matters beyond ones current grasp.

davidylan:
Hi JeSoul, like i said earlier . . . that was my private interpretation of Rev 17 and others might have different opinions about it but i have some reservations as regards the other one you posted.

For example it says Nero is the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns . . . but Nero was the FIRST emperor to persecute christians . . . this would run counter to Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Quite clearly this beast WAS and IS NOT but IS THE EIGHTH (i.e. he will come AFTER the 7 kings from verse 10 not before). Verse 11 also says he goes into perdition . . . we know the anti-christ himself, not Nero, is the son of perdition.

I have plenty reservations about what I posted too! lol.
I'm definitely inclined towards your interpretation. I just wanted to show another of several versions out there.

noetic16:
My opinion on this thread is largely influenced by the spiritual quandary I am in at the present. . . . . .I will share some snippets with you REGARDLESS of difference in opinion or criticism.

a. I "saw God" anoint a man (from africa to do exploits in this generation) on mountains in the spiritual realm.
b. I saw this person grow to become a mighty person, a major world player and the wealthiest person on the globe. He actually controls more than half the wealth of the world.
c. he is born-again, filled with the holy ghost and was sent to also crusade against the many false prophets in the church.
d. God depicts this man as a mighty tree under whom many come to rest and are fed.
e. this man is the tool through which God pulls several mountains out of Africa to the glory of God.
f. I have a vision diary which I have collected my visions over the past two years. . .and all I see in this diary is God making a super-power out of one individual in this generation,  . .  . . , I cannot share all of what I have seen. . .but the above should paint a picture.

the following are my quandaries. .  .
1. No where in the scripture was this personality discussed,  . . I have searched from genesis to revelation. The only singular person so discussed to be so powerful and influential was the beast called the anti-Christ. but I was told in a "word of revelation" that this person is NOT the anti-Christ,   ,  . . . .but that the anti-Christ (beast) would follow shortly after him.

2. After diligent search . . . . The closest thing in the scripture to this person is Daniel and Joseph's might in their era. This explains why I was curious when I once heard a preacher say that we are in the era of Joseph awaiting the era of Benjamin.
The closest word in the new testament to this person is "the earth awaits the manifestation of the sons of God". . . .cos he was specifically defined to me in the spirit as "an adopted son of God through Christ Jesus".

Perhaps Noetic, these visions are not meant to be taken in the most literal sense? perhaps the figures and places are symbolic? Well certainly do as you are led. I think you're taking the right approach in not simply dimissing them. But also leave a little bit of room that this may not be a prophecy for the future. But maybe something else God is trying to show/teach you.

1. The man in the description above, since he does not fit anywhere in bible prophecy. . where does he fit in?. . . . .since it is wrong to limit the works and plans of God to the bible and it is also very wrong to search extra-biblical sources for such prophecies?

Extra-biblical resources can be profitable, but I think the danger far outweighs any profit. How do you confirm such a prophecy is real or fake? since it speaks to a future no one knows? When you begin to consult anything other than the bible, it opens doors for false teachings and human error to cloud things and leave one holding on to beliefs that may be dead wrong.
 

2. It is in lieu of these visions that I STRONGLY believe that we are not at the VERY END of the world. cos all I see from my vision dairy are crazy changes on this planet by the sons of God to the glory of God in this generation,  . . . . . . ,

You know what?  Peter also believed that they were in the LAST DAYS.
When the disciples were speaking in tongues, Peter explained that it was simply a fulfilment of the prophecy in Joel. Acts 2:
16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
     I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
  Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
     your young men will see visions,
     your old men will dream dreams.

My understanding is that we've been living in the last days since Jesus left. I mean we've been seeing the "signs" (earthquakes, wars etc) Jesus told us about for centuries and centuries. When exactly the END will come - only God knows.

3. David's and the JW analysis of Daniel2 and revelation 17 are rich (I have seen them on the net for while). . . but my indifference (not disagreement) to them is influenced by the fact that my very best personal interpretations of God's prophecies usually have holes and are not so straight forward like a text book. .  .that explains why I believe that end time prophecies like rapture, 666, anti-Christ and just not as literal as we see it. . .but connote deeper meanings.

It could very well be. We will not know until it unfolds before our eyes.

4. what is the implication of these vision for the church? what would the church make of an individual like that? with so much power and affluence . . .would he be labelled the anti-Christ?

. . . . . .brb

I think the church should concern herself with only one thing - loving God and serving His people. We have barely met the minimum requirements of that charge, that we should be turning our eyes to incredibly complicated, perhaps unattainable prophetic exploits.

noetic16:
@ David and Jesoul . .  . I just want to stretch your analysis a little for the benefit of everyone (xtians).

1.The bible talks about the manifestation of the Sons of God. do u think they have already manifested? or are manifesting?

First we may need to clarify what we mean by manifestation.

1. I agree partly with David's response. The "sons of God" are manifesting right now, as they've been since Jesus ascension, as the spirit leads. This manifestation I don't think can be biblically supported to be "material" but rather spiritual. Acts 2 is a solid reference.

2. However specifically in Romans 8 (the verse I think you're refering to), in context of the entire chapter and specifically verse 19, it is speaking of a time when we will be liberated from our sinful bodies and given a higher estate - and that all creation also is eagerly waiting in expectation for when they too will be freed from sin's "decay". Hence the "manifestation" tag here I hold is simply refering to the day when He returns and when we will receive our new bodies and finally "manifest as the Sons of God".

Hope that makes sense?

what if in the near future a Christian becomes a global entrepreneur who excels in all fields of human business endeavour. . . .with a great wealth, wisdom and acumen equivalent to that of King Solomon. . . .with which he pays off Africa's debts. . .what would u make of him? would u call him the anti-Christ? where would u place him in bible prophecy?

Honestly, unless God revealed something to me personally about this person, I would refrain from assigning him a prophetical biblical price tag, declaring this is what he is or isn't, because like you say, we just don't know for certain. And even if God revealed it to me personally, I would also probably refrain from sharing it with others as absolute truth - unless I was directed to do so.

2. there are schools of thoughts who claim that we are in the era of Joseph. . . .awaiting the era of benjamin . . . .what do u make of those?

Era of wetin? lol. I haven't heard of that either. And I doubt they can support it biblically - it sounds just like another one of popular "christian" speak - season of this, harvest of that etc etc

David and Noetic, very nice back n forth.

davidylan:
Revelations 17

Caveat - this is my personal opinion and should not be taken for gospel truth. Feel free to criticise as you read.

[size=13pt][A][/size] 1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great LovePeddler that sitteth upon many waters:

two things are important to note here:

1. LovePeddler - In bible terms this represents mingling with the world and complete departure from the precepts of God. Hosea 1 and 2 (and Rev 17:2 also) explains this. The RCC is firmly involved in politics.
2. Many waters - Signifies many people. - Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the LovePeddler sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Aside from Islam, The RCC is the largest religious denomination on earth, over a billion souls.

[size=13pt][B][/size] But who is this woman? Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

This woman is the Roman Catholic church . . .

1. Mother of many harlots - every single church denomination today is an off-shoot of the catholic church.
2. She's drunken with the blood of saints and martyrs of Jesus - No other organisation has killed more christians than Rome, the church and its popes.
3. Upon her head was written all sorts of blasphemies.
4. She sits on a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns but what are these?

7 heads - Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. T[b]he seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.[/b]

This is the most obvious . . . Rome sits on 7 hills.

It also symbolises 7 kings - 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

5 are fallen . . . Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian empires had all collapsed as at the time this was written. One is - the Roman empire was just coming into its full might then. The other is not yet come - this is the toes of iron/clay that Nebuchadnezzar saw . . . the Anglo-American empire.

the beast (the anti-christ) is the eighth and final "empire" and he is of the 7 (i.e. he will be a combination of all 7 empires).

The 10 horns - These are 10 kings (nations) . . . 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

As at the time this prophecy was given, they didnt exist which is why John writes this (which have recieved no kingdom as yet).

I strongly believe these 10 kings are going to be the 10 most powerful nations on earth at the end of time (we are not there yet). My hunch is this will come from the expansion of the G8 (with the addition of China and most likely Saudi Arabia) . . . just a hunch.

What is the purpose of the 10 kings? - 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Even non-christians are increasingly aware we are drifting close to a one-world order. With China's insistence on a global currency it is just a matter of time before we get there. One leader for the entire world controlling the armies and vast weaponry of G8 members is a scary thot.

What do the 10 kings do? - 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

I believe these are going to be the tools the Anti-Christ will use to wage the final war of armaggedon.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the LovePeddler, and shall make her desolate and unclothed, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

This is the final death knell to religion. Liberalism and atheism is on the rise . . . if anyone doesnt believe we are nearing an age when christianity will be outlawed . . . you certainly have not been paying attention to the news.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Now we know the woman is actually a CITY . . . the VATICAN CITY which reigns over the kings of the earth. There is no gainsaying that the pope is the most revered and most powerful leader on earth.

Do i think we are firmly at the end of the last days? YES!

David, good analysis here. I think this is the most popularly accepted interpretation of that verse and honestly I don't think there's much to critique. It certainly is a plausible version. Here's one I found that interprets it to have[i] already happened:[/i]

[Revelation was written in the 1st Century by John of Patmos (Patmos was a Roman penal colony). It is thought that John may have also been John the Apostle of Jesus. Because John was subject to persecution by his Roman captors, God used Babylon as a code name for Rome in Revelation. This interpretation is confirmed elsewhere in the New Testament.
A) Babylon Prostitute: Revelation 17 refers to the Babylon prostitute who is known for her abominations and drunken with the blood of saints. It mentions that the prostitute is associated with the 7 hills. The 7 hills most likely represent 7 hills found in Rome. Since the Babylon prostitute is a persecutor of saints, it must be "non Christian". It is known that the Roman Emperors persecuted Christians from time to time for hundreds of years. So this would be an accurate description of pagan Rome.

B) 10 Kings who persecute the saints: Revelation 17 also refers to the 10 kings who will persecute Christians for one hour.

If we look at history, the first Roman persecutor of Christians was Nero. He is mentioned earlier in Revelation 13 as the beast, the man who in Hebrew numerology was known as "666". His character certainly matched that of an evil emperor, one who was a beast who was immoral. And he is associated with the false religion (false prophet) of the Imperial Emperor worship.

When we look back in the vision of Revelation, we see the beast as represented by Nero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire

Persecution under Nero (c. 64-68)

When we look forward in the future from the vision, we see in Roman history, the beast of pagan Rome continues its persecution of Christians. There were to be 10 kings who will reign for 1 hour who would persecute the Christians in the near future. It states "they will go to war against the Lamb (Jesus)" (NJB Rev 17:14). The kings are listed below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_early_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire


Persecution under Domitian (r. 81-96)
Persecution under Trajan (112-117)
Persecution under Marcus Aurelius (r. 161-180)
Persecution under Septimus Severus (202-210)
Persecution under Maximinus the Thracian (235-38)
Persecution under Decius (250-251)
Persecution under Valerian (257-59)
Persecution under Aurelian (r. 270-275)
Severe persecution under Diocletian (303-324)
Persecution Under Julian the Apostate (r. 361-363)
C) 10 Kings who persecute the prostitute: Revelaton also mentions the 10 kings who would also persecute the Babylonian prostitute. These kings represent the Christian kings who ruled Rome from Constatine (4th century) forward. These kings persecuted the pagans, destroyed the pagan temples and gave their wealth to the Christian church. It was Christian Kings who set fire to Rome and sacked it.

D) 7 Emperors: The 7 emperors of Revelation 17 are likely the significant Emporers, starting with Augustus Caesar, who established emporer worship in the Roman empire. This emperor worship is an abomination in God's eyes and represented the false prophet associated with the beast (the beast who prosecutes Christians).

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_explanation_of_Revelation_17

Infact eh if I had the money and time, I woulda driven straight down to the Garden and joined the fans in booing the Celtics off the floor at half time. See how they're causing our enemies to rejoice over us, lol.

It's one thing to struggle to win when you play hard, its quite another to not play hard - the latter is the Celtics now and they will rightly receive grief from us the fans. Stupid management is signing granpas like Finley that only slow the team down further and you expect a change? issok though, we shall get it together (hopefully before the playoffs or else . . . )

---

Anyways in other NBA news. You guys hear how the Clippers fired Coach Dunleavy? He found out on the internet - after it had made news - that he was fired . Mehn, gotta love the Clipper management.

You guys have given me plenty to think over, thanks for all your quality input. I'm going to sleep on it and be back for more . . .

davidylan:
Good point. But i believe the idea that we can simply skip the prophecies because we dont understand them is not the way to go. There was a lot (parables, prophecies) the disciples could barely comprehend too . . . they didnt just gloss over it. There is room for searching the scriptures and asking God for interpretation . . .

Yeah, you're right. I'm more than inclined to agree with that. Which is why I asked "then why did God give them to us, even though we may not be able to fully understand them" . . . is that a question we can even answer? I don't know.


Nwankwo, thanks again.
[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=411119.msg5666393#msg5666393 date=1268252514]Hi again. God gave humanity Revelation so that they will take from it what is of spiritual benefit to them. I have previously alluded that some sections of the book are within the conceptional capacity of human beings and it is these sections that are of benefit to man. Man can with the grace of God understand these sections. But there are many parts of it that he cannot understand because it deals with spiritual and in some cases divine events clothed in earthly words. When man comes to such sections, he meets a brick wall and no matter how hard he tries, he or she will not succed. One of our problems is that we as a specie always think that we are the focus of attention and whatever God does, it is for our purpose. Let me say and I must emphasise that this is my perception and not drawn from the other books of the bible. The book of Revelation and the pictures that it unfolds deals with the entire cosmos, not just humans, thus angels have sections of it that will benefit them, higher spirits have sections of it that will benefit them, human spirits (us) on earth have sections of it that will benefit them and even human spirits living in other universes have sections of it that will benefit them, etc. Each specie takes from Revealation as much as it is capable based on its nature and origin. One evidence that human spirits often try to interpret sections that they are incapable of understanding can be seen with the various millenial groups whose prediction of endtime have never been accurate even for once. Stay blessed.[/quote]Hmmm. Interesting. I see where you're going and it ties in with David's point above. We can't just skip them, but instead study it, and whatsoever spiritual insight or understanding we can glean, we take, all the while having the foundational concession that we will not be able to understand it fully. Is this a decent summary of your position?

noetic16:
Rightly so. . ,  and this is largely due to my personal spiritual experiences. . . . .man has little or no influence over these things.
The ability to correctly understand these prophecies is on its own a gift. . . . .the ability to decipher what spiritual season we are in now is another gift on its own.

Lol, na wah oh. True talk.
 

Take for instance Paul talks about the manifestation of the sons of God (romans 8:19). . . .John talks about those who Jesus gave the power to become the sons of God (John 1:12) and Paul also talks about those who truly are the sons of God (romans 8:14).
So we know from (john1:12 and romans 8:14) those who Paul was talking about in romans 8:19.

A literal deduction from the above is that the "adopted" sons of God through Christ Jesus would excel right here on earth. how would they excel? what does it mean to excel?. . .would they hold positions of influence? would they be financially bouyant? would they become very powerful like Joseph or Daniel? would they become world leaders?
How does this prophecy by Paul reflect on the gospel of the many thieves and charlatans in the church whose only message is prosperity? could they be right after all? . . .when is this season Paul was talking about?. . . . .it is definitely before the anti-Christ.

From Paul's prophecy.  . . . .it is obvious that the sons of God would excel exceptionally. This means that perhaps we are not yet in the season of the anti-Christ, or in the purported last days.

This subject can be an entire thread onto its own. I think the current "WOF vs NON-WOF" threads are currently wrestling with elements of your above quote.

of course I might be wrong. . . .but who exactly can tell as to what spiritual season we are in? there are too many prophetic revelations in the bible. . . .that have no chronological order. It is in lieu of this that I believe that the best shot is not to try to interpret these prophecies with mere human theological knowledge. . . .these interpretations do more harm than good. innocent people have been ignorantly labelled anti-Christ.

And I think this is a very reasonable approach, erring on the side of caution.

I do not speak as a spiritual authority. . .but neither do I subscribe to many end-time notions.

1. the case of the rapture. The biblical description of the rapture by the Lord is too "unclothed". if two people walk and one suddenly disappears, there would be global panic and many would know that the rapture has taken place. . . . .and this IMO does not convey the message Jesus was trying to teach. He was IMO simply talking about the unexpected nature of the rapture (and His subsequent return) and the context does not convey that the world would know of the rapture.

Hmm, interesting. I need to go back and look at those verses.

2. the Anti-Christ. who really is the anti-Christ? is he a person, a nation, group of nations or an institution. many people have been labelled anti-Christ. but yet there are billions of anti-Christs walking all over this planet,  . . . .my take is that God has a far deeper message to us concerning the anti-Christ. do I know this message. . . no I dont.

Lol, the appropriate question should be do any of us do?

3. 666. No one would willingly collect the 666 mark. . . . .so it might come in the form of a necessary innovation. . . .a necessity we just cannot do without,  like the internet, our debit or credit cards. oyster cards and many other necessities.
would anyone willingly receive the 666 mark, knowing fully well that it is a 666 mark? regardless of whether they are xtians or not, the fact that it is the much mentioned 666 is a bad selling point for the anti-Christ.

There have been so so many variations of the whole 666 thing, that I have lost count. I dunno that anyone "wouldn't willingly collect" the mark - I wouldn't put that beyond the depraved nature of humans.

4. End of the world. when exactly is the end of the world? . . . . .my take is the world like all other creations are coming to an end. . . but we are not yet at the very end. I might be wrong. . but the end all persons should be looking out for is the one stated in hebrews 9:27.
This should be the end that should concern every individual.

5 the judgement of God. many times many preachers try to prick on the emotions of people to say that certain wicked persons in society would receive judgements from God with immediate effect. I have learnt that this is FALSE. The persecution xtians suffer usually has the signature of God on it. . .largely within the plan of God. . that explains what was stated in psalm 34:19 that "many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers Him from them all" . . . . .I was once being persecuted at work. . . I prayed about it, I was going to confront my managers. . . guess what God told me . . , He said "do not confront anyone, see me working through them to make u a better person". . . . .This singular persecution turned out for good and changed my understanding of events.

And this is what Nwankwo ended his post with. That perhaps we should concern ourselves more with immediate and attainable charges that we've been given.

davidylan:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Do we then choose what part to read and which to ignore?

I don't think its necessarily advocating "ignoring" a certain chunk of scripture. I did submit the searching and looking into these prophecies by christians may be the "purpose" of them - not necessarily being able to decipher and interpret them fully.

We don't go about using and quoting from the book of Numbers everyday and in instructing and reproving and correcting ourselves in our walk. It is scripture, but not scripture we christians really use . . . unless you're of the persuation there are hidden numbers and codes and signs in the geneaologies etc. I think its purely a historical segment that simply shows God pays attention to details. It doesn't mean I "ignore it". Makes sense I hope.

Hi Nwankwo,

as usual, you have said a truckload that is sooo applicable. Thank you.
[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=411119.msg5666127#msg5666127 date=1268249398]Hi Jesoul. The book of revelation is purely a spiritual book clothed in earthly words and in my own perception, it is 100% accurate and do contain the blueprint for what has happened, is happening and will happen. But we must realise that it deals with happening far beyound the conceptional capacity of even the most gifted human being, that is why it is a revelation in the first place. Any attempt at interpreting the book of Revelation or given a time frame when some of the prohecies will occure is doomed to failure. Many have done so in the past and many will also do so in the future but both them and their followers will end up with bitter disappointment for their interpretations will come to naught. But it is still possible that some sections of it can be revealed to a human being by God, and thus even with the highest calling and grace, the blessed one can only have part knowlege. It will be unwise and even dangerous to put up an interpretation based on part knowlege. My view is that their are more than enough signs in the universe and its various inhabitants to show that the end time is near or that we are already in the end time. [/quote]Very true. One question tho:

The mechanisms on how it will unfold is left to God and his will.

Why did God give us the book of Revelation then? back to the title of the thread: what is the purpose of giving us those prophecies if we cannot even understand them?

What we human beings should do is to see that at this moment, we are living absolutely in the sense of the will of God so that we are not found wanting when the trumpets of God sound[b]. One of our major weakness is that we spent enormous energy and time pondering what we will not understand even if it was explained to us and forget to do things that God require such as love of God, love fellow human beings, love of Gods creation, purity, chastity, humility, compassion, truthfulness etc[/b]. I am convinced that when the trumpet sounds, God will not judje us on how we interpret Revelation but whether or not we have lived our lives according to the will of God. Stay blessed.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Noetic,
    thank you for this heartfelt response. Several things I'd like to touch on:

   

noetic16:
I think it is best not to interpret these prophecies at all. my answer is deduced from my personal life.
personally, the biggest challenge I am facing today in my xtian life is the personal revelation of the ontological nature of God I have believed all my life. I have been taught that God is omnipotent, scient, present, puissant and sapient. getting closer to God and seeing these very natures of God is really really very scary. my ability to see visions before they attain reality is a scary exercise.

These visions are not for distant or future events alone, but for daily events that occur all through life about myself and the world around me. The visions do not strike me, what strikes me is their ability to come to pass. when these visions are about me, they come to pass without any slight input from me. . .implying that with or without my consent. . .these visions (which may also involve actions from me) come to pass.

I'm gleaning from the above that you have the gift of prophecy and visions. And I find the bolded part most interesting . . . it holds parallels for many biblical prophecies.

My personal reaction is that. . . No one knows 1% about God.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Another good example is the biblical Peter. when Jesus foretold peter's denial. . .peter rebuked such claims stating that he'd rather die with the Lord than betray Him. . . , peter only remembered this encounter after he'd denied the Lord thrice. did peter really have a say in influencing the prophecy made by the Lord? . . . , And also the only psychological explanation to the fact that the disciples did not pick up arms against their persecutors was because Jesus foretold their persecution in sordid details. .  . .my submission is that Jesus knows far too much than we think.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you here, you partly hold that since we cannot influence or change prophecy then -

there is no point interpreting these prophecies. . cos they are hardly meant to be understood (at least not for everyone)

until the time of its fulfilment. Did I quote you right?

. . . . .many times[b] I do not understand my visions or words of revelations until they have attained manifestation[/b]. . . .this readily implies that perhaps they were not fully meant to be understood.

Exactly. I quoted that verse in 1 Pet cos it showed how the prophecies given to the prophets were not for them and they could not understand it - until it was fulfilled.
  Your next statement is tricky, but I think correct. The key word being "fully understood". Again this is the indication we get from 1 Pet.

if every one knew how exactly the 666 mark would come about. . . , no one would take it. but how are u sure that by using a debit/credit card, u are not carrying a 666 mark?

Just yday I heard a sermon where the preacher gave his view that the 666 may not even be a literal "666" but a mark or code for something else etc.

IMO most of the commonly held end-time notions are wrong. . .as no man knows the times or season for events to happen. . .  .I doubt anyone would really notice the rapture. . . .as hollywood is subtly informing us of alien kidnaps. . . .neither would anyone notice the last 7 years. . ,  . as the world would be too concerned about having peace.

Can you briefly name a few?