₦airaland Forum

Deep Sight:
Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that the sequence of world powers in Nebuchadnezzar's dream parallels that given in the vision in the Book of Revelation Chapter 17, verse 10 which speaks of "seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived". (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece having "fallen" by the time Revelation was written; Rome was the world power at the time - "one is" - while the British Empire and subsequent emergence of the United States and their later alliance was then yet to come, hence "the other has not yet arrived".)

Thanks DS. Well, this is one of many many interpretations . . . who's right?

MyJoe:
Now, I feel really cool. . No mind Deep Sight - he won't hijack nothing.

But Revelation is one hard nut to crack because there are usually many possible interpretations. What can be stated without doubt is that most parts of the Bible contain applications for everyone. For example, there are many practical lessons to be learnt from the letters the angel carried to the seven churches in Asia Minor - the dangers of covetousness, disloyalty, sectarianism and various acts of immorality are spelt out.

I will like your thoughts on what Deep Sight wrote above.

Exactly.
My question is (well for christians I guess) is this a nut we should be attempting to crack?

davidylan:
It will be good if you take them one by one and provide references. thanks.

Thanks David. However I'm not really looking to get into "interpreting" those prophecies. I'm asking more in a general sense of end-time prophecies. See these questions again:

-Can we truly know for certain which of these various interpretations of prophecies are accurate?

-Should we even be trying to figure out these prophecies? when for the most part they seem unsearchable? (that is answers may never be known until the events actually occur).

-Are there any practical applications (for todays christian) from any knowledge that may be gleaned from studies on end-time prophecy?

-Or is the passionate, fervent study[b] itself [/b] (and not necessarily the achievement of solid answers) the reward? I'm inclined mostly towards this position based on 1Pet below:

davidylan:
which in particular is JeSoul interested in?

Oga I don talk am now

JeSoul:
I'm more concerned about prophecies that right now are interpreted in several ways and speak of events that are yet to happen (symbolically or actually - whichever one people hold).

Like the battle of armageddon, the two witnesses, the tribulation period, the bowls/seals/trumpets and the events that unfold etc etc . . .

This is interesting.

  I can kinda appreciate the "harmony" argument especially when it comes to nature. I'm less convinced that the formula will remain this simple and this true, when applied more complex problems like say - humankind? our intricate, complicated and depraved spiritual nature etc. Interesting write-up nonetheless.

Deep Sight:
^^^ Jesoul, the book of Daniel contains end time prophecies as well.

Yeah you're right (David ditto). Brain freeze there.

What do you make about the dream of the King of Babylon about a huge statue with feel of clay and other parts in bronze, gold and silver?

Do you remember Daniel's interpretation of that Dream?

Yes I remember those. But I'm tyring to steer you fellas away from that

I'm more concerned about prophecies that right now are interpreted in several ways and speak of events that are yet to happen (symbolically or actually - whichever one people hold).

davidylan:
Some of the prophecies in Daniel have already occured.

I'm enquiring more about end-time prophecies, particularly those in Revelation.

Deep Sight:
_{*blushing* . . . thanks for your sarcasm . . .} . . . but i am still going to hijack the thread.

Sarcasm? where? I am serious about your "coolness".

There have been about three or more Earthquakes within the last six weeks alone. . .

I am worried that the Earth may be entering a period of heightened siesmic instability. . .

My worry is not helped by the fact that I have had a dream THREE TIMES in recent weeks showing the same image. . . a large ball of fire in the sky hurtling towards the earth. . .

I just hope that Mayan calender has nothing to it sha. . . because the planetary alignment comes up in 2012, and the last time there was such an alignment 70% of living species went extinct. . .

I'm curious, what do you as a theist make of those dreams? just a subconcious manifestation of subject matter your physical brain has been occupied with? or something[i] else[/i]?

Deep Sight:
Is this an attempt to exclude me from this thread? ? ?

Are you insinuating that i am not a "really cool person? ? ?"

How dare you.

For this I am going to hijack this thread.

Lol . . . Deepsight, didn't you know? that you are so stupendously, ridiculously, enviably cool, that if I had included your name up there, the entire thread woulda frozen over and I would get no replies?

Please this topic is mostly for christians, but thoughts and opinions from other really cool people like MyJoe are welcome.
I have heard, read, considered all kinds of different views and explanations on several of the prophecies that are spoken of not only in the book of Revelation, but also in Daniel, Ezekiel etc. Everything from the two witnesses, to the great tribulation, to armageddon etc etc etc . . . Now my opinion on this is still being molded, hence the query.

-Can we truly know for certain which of these various interpretations are accurate?

-Should we even be trying to figure out these prophecies? when for the most part they seem unsearchable? (that is answers may never be known until the events actually occur). 

-Are there any practical applications (for todays christian) from any knowledge that may be gleaned from studies on end-time prophecy?

-Or is the passionate, fervent study[b] itself[/b] (and not necessarily the achievement of solid answers) the reward? I'm inclined mostly towards this position based on 1Pet below:

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

[quote author=~Sauron~ link=topic=262653.msg5653366#msg5653366 date=1268087013]Lucky Number Slevin?
One word: BRILLIANT!!!!

I rate it 99.99999999%.[/quote]hmm . . . Sauron you have come again with these 99%'s

[quote author=na2day? link=topic=344420.msg5651593#msg5651593 date=1268069746]Artest really throw me off balance with that hair do, God save that guy. anywho, been a while, how are u doing baby? [/quote]I am well o jare  thanks.

Artest threw a few million people off with that atrocious thing on his head. His issue may require the services of Drs Phil and Oz, working overtime. And the guy did not even play that well yesterday. I think he had one of his best games against Denver. He's inconsistent, that's his problem.

chic2pimp:
Wonder shall never seize sha. So you get mouth dey yab peeps team abi just cuz the Celts are on a lucky winning streak?

Don't worry y'all would be brought down with a bang very soon

Lol, au contraire my brother. I'm not yabbing the team at all. I really really enjoyed watching the game, it was very entertaining, clutch shots from both sides, chippy defensive plays, kobe not flinching at Barnes poke with the ball, lol, action all around - don't get no better than that. A 3-game slide is not a big deal at all imo, the media is going on and on about it, but its not a big deal. The stat that I think should concern the lakers is that they are 5-8 against the top teams (orl, den, cavs) so far.

I just have this severe aversion for wimps, of which Gasoft is top-notch.

chiogo:
Oh coool, I guess they're a competition, would be nice if they got rid of the Cavs for us.

Men those Cavs seem almost invincible with that line-up. Unless they pull a repeat of last year's choke session in the ECfinals.

Don't leave us again.
LOL @Gasoft and diva. . . . Chai.

Never again my sista, never again

chic2pimp:
Will you sharrap dia

See this one, you should be overcome with awe and arrested with immediate reverence of this prophetess from above. My prophecy came true within 10 minutes. If that's not the mark of a true messenger I dunno what is

^lol, don't mind me, I jump at your post because I love you

(for a second there I thot I was on the "republican racism in disguise" thread" hence my direct response to just you). Oh well.

Prez, haba relax now, I was just kidding with you and thought that was obvious of course everyone is biased, that goes without saying.

I didn't watch Tayo's video either, just like I didn't watch yours. Which is why I said:

JeSoul:
extremists exist on both sides.

or did you miss that? and I even went on to support you by saying:

-Are there elements of racism, and other -isms within the Tea Party movement? of course, no rational person would deny that.

Maybe you're just having a bad day

High intensity game btw LA and Magic yesterday. Barnes was really all up in Kobe's grill lol. The refs were generous, he coulda been thrown out at least twice. I have just 2 comments:

-Gasoft is such a whiny, cry baby. See the diva flailing his arms like a 2 yr old who had their candy bar taken away. Man up and take the physical contact without whining jare

-What the heck was that on Artest's head? Hmmm Lakers fans, you berra keep an eye on that dude, these are what they call "warning signs" of a serious problem in psychology.

---

Celtics are 4-0 since my return to fanhood I will never leave ya'll again. I promise.

I predict people will reply to this thread .

obinna5000:
I was wondering, if movie goers and fans had also been involved in the voting process, do you think "The Hurt Locker" would have still won 6 awards last night?

lol, I think we all know the answer to that. Movie goers vote with their pockets and they have spoken loud and clear lol. THL ranks 146 and only brought in $16 million even with all the exposure and oscar buzz.

[quote author=pres-elect link=topic=324259.msg5640246#msg5640246 date=1267903768]@montelik
i am biased. yes. i'm a hard left liberal. thats why tea party crowds look like hoodlums to me.[/quote]So why should we take anything you say seriously? 

I haven't watched the videos you posted, but I'll say that extremists exist on both sides. Where you would be stepping into serious error is to paint an entire group of people with the same extremist brush.

-Are there elements of racism, and other -isms within the Tea Party movement? of course, no rational person would deny that.
-Do these extremists make up the bulk of the movement? No, and no rational person would insinuate that.

@poster, there's nothing "powerful" here. Just your run-of-the-mill optical illusion.

davidylan:
lol JeSoul was so busy telling me we had no idea why whiteroses needed a tattoo . . .

Lol, abeg leave jesoul out of it jor. Whiteroses has now shown us her colors, but on behalf of other prospective[i] christian [/i] tattooers out there, they can count on my unflinching support

I am extremely happy for Sandra Bullock, Christopher Walz and Monique - they were all simply and incredibly flawless in their various roles and deserved to win.

I am extremely ticked off District 9 didn't win anything and even more ticked off at HL winning best picture, I wonder . . . it must be some seriously high quality reefers the voters must be smoking these days.

For those of you who haven't seen the Hurt locker, please I implore you to do so, so that perhaps, you may gain a small understanding of the atrocity that was committed last night all in the political name of "first woman winning best ___". THL is not even top 7 of the 10 movies nominated in MHO.

davidylan:
This is the begining of the slide towards compromise. You say the christian doctrine is straightforward BUT christian living has gray areas? huh?
Christian living has no gray areas, we have simply manufactured them because we desire that the flesh must be fed.

I'm not talking about christian doctrine and ideals. Please seperate the two. Christian living HAS gray areas. What may be acceptable in one culture may not be in another. Some cover heads, others don't etc. Tattoos may be taboo out here, but there're other areas where they don't have any negative association with it.
 
  My own grandmother was covered in tattoos all over her arms - it was the culture she grew up in and it was normal. Which is one big reason I have never seen tattoos as a necessarily bad thing. If your arguement is tattoos leave a negative impression and ruin our chance to represent godliness, what about in cultures or circles where it is not considered a bad thing? Have you thought of that?

Why won't you let each christian decide issues like this, that aren't clearly biblically defined to be wrong, what is good for them? I ask again, do you know whether or not God has approved of them, their decision before standing in judgement over them?
 

and rightfully so because we all know that tattoos connote something negative. Many decent fortune 500 companies will not hire you if you have a visible tattoo . . . and for good reason too.

why oh why do we think what isnt good enough for man must be ok to God?

In THIS culture and in our societal circles - yes - for the most part it hold negative associations. But does this make it a sin to get one? No.

davidylan:
there are no gray areas with Christ . . . you are either justified or condemned.

Agreed. In Christ - you're either saved or not. In christian doctrine - Jesus either died or not. In christian living - it is different, things are not always black and white, and frequently vary according to culture.

Getting a tattoo is a lifestyle choice . . . but what does it portray? A life devoted to Christ or one that prefers to be "cool" by worldly standards? You may not see it that way but mere unbelief is rebellion with Christ.

The term "rebellion" connotes a negative, violent or open insubordination . . . it could actually be as simple as choosing to disobey God's will for your life.

Its funny . . . most tattooed christians are those who got them BEFORE they got converted. Why did they stop?

Most does not mean the minority are doing wrong. And because "most" are like you and I and view wearers of tattoos negatively.

Marcwilliems:
@ cephas. U know little of what you yourself post. What makes a specie different from another one- is it not the life it possesses? What is life? Do u understand urself at all? The scripture u posted to show i'm wrong only proves i'm right! THE OLD LIFE HAS GONE- A NEW LIFE (MARK THE WORD "LIFE " HAS BEGUN, HOW DO U READ your BIBLE? God!!
Well i don't think i'll have to argue with you guys.POST WHATEVER U LIKE- But u sure can't stop the truth. These things i have experienced, practiced and known for my self. No amount of propaganda by my fellow "unbelieving" believers can take what i know about the Spirit of God through direct fellowship.
I'll leave you to argue all day- i'm not being affected, what i know (thru study, meditation, fellowship and so on) will always be mine.so keep debating while we keep reaching out to souls with the Gospel of the resurrected Christ who has given us HIS VERY LIFE.
Peace be unto you.

So Marc, why don't you cut off your own skin like Pastor Chris and show us irrefutable evidence you are superhuman?

---

Okay forget that. Can you start by telling us what things specifically you can do - physically, spiritually or otherwise- as a "superhuman" being?

davidylan:
Na me JeSoul dey call sinner? Kissing is NOT wrong . . . come here!

Lol, sinner, I mean David trouble dey sleep, yanga wan wake am . . .

You and i cannot make declarations to others as regards what they do (there are no gray areas in the bible, we deliberately paint them gray because we want to compromise) . . .

Ahn ahn, is it my imagination or didn't you already say tattoo in itself is not a sin - but the application of it can be? this makes it gray because it is not outright wrong like fornication.

but when they come asking questions what do you tell them? That its ok for them to go on living a lifestyle that is an open rebellion against the God they profess to "love"?

God forbid we do that. How is getting a tattoo tantamount to a "lifestyle in open rebellion to God?"

I considered for the longest time getting one, but didn't because I knew it would be a negative in the circles I'm in regardless of how pure my motives were. Another christian under different circumstances can make a different decision. That does not come close to me intending to live a rebellious lifestyle.

I aint a saint by any stretch of the matter,

Understatement of the century

but i dont decieve myself trying to justify my wrong-doings. A tattoo isnt a bad thing for someone who is not pretending to be a "committed christian". For such a person . . . the charge of fornication is meaningless, drinking is ok, swearing is allowed and cursing is a skill.

See my above response again.

What of the person who claims to be a saved child of Jesus? Should we then live as the world? Each time i read this i am more convinced there is something seriously wrong with modern christianity . . .

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

this thread is simply an example of why. The world cannot hate the modern christian . . . he is no different from the world anyway.

In Mat 10:22, I will cast my treasure in all day long. But I'm done being overly persuaded by the outward appearances of "godliness" these days. See the sharply dressed preachers in suits leading people to hell, and the convert probably tattooed prior to conversion leading a quiet life of service.

[quote author=Cephas_007 link=topic=407858.msg5634638#msg5634638 date=1267811139]To even think that Pastor Chris has been on about this Superhuman thing for years (I used to be a member of CEC) and even did a sermon which was recorded and titled (in part) . . . the life of a SUPERMAN. The choir (led by sis. Osi) even did a "customized" song to go along with it. Some of the lines where something like: I'm a "super super superman" . . . and all of us dey jump dey dance dat time . . . It is well o [/quote] and the truth is slowly coming out

davidylan:
You're doing the exact same thing . . . you think (personal opinion) tattoos are cool so you will support it even without scriptural evidence. Its all emotionalism with a lot of what we call "christianity" these days.

If indeed I'm doing the same thing then are you willing to conceed it is up to each believer to make up their own mind on this issue?

and how shld we give instruction borne from love? Tell her that her tattoo is ok? (which is obviously what she wanted to hear).

Nope I didn't tell her it was just okay. I told her her motive for doing it would determine whether or not it was okay - two very different things.

Tattoos are not wrong

Yeye boy! why can't you just say that and leave it there?   but no you must to fight lol.

. . . but for people who claim to be "set aside and called according to the purpose of Jesus" . . . shldnt there no longer be a standard?

There absolutely should. Which is why I personally will NOT get a tattoo. But I will not forbid it for others, let them make up their own minds what is proper for them.

this is just ridiculous. Maybe you advocate we go unclothed then? How does wearing a dress (a necessity to cover your unclothedness that the bible is very vocal about) become analogous with frivolous, unecessary bodily adornment like tattoos?

Soon we'll hear that boys with ear rings are cool too. Heck i saw a few at my church on sunday . . .

Abeg no shift jare. You asked me for the "spiritual value" of a tattoo. I simply replied saying if that's the road you wanna go, what's the spiritual value of your hairstlye. Yes tattoos are uneccessary to you, but that is to YOU. Leave the next christian to decide what is "uneccessary" for themselves.

Oh until its in black-white its ok to hobnob with the world? Fornication is "clearly forbidden in the scriptures" . . . kissing isnt . . .   so get your lips here baby!

You sinner,  lol, abeg no drag me inside that one.

Eating meat offered to idols wasnt a sin either.

the idea that its "why you get it" and whether or not God approves of it even makes the idea of a christian spotting tattoos a lot worse.

1. Why do you get a tattoo? Certainly NOT because you think it will bring glory to the kingdom. The bible says we are an epistle to be read of all men . . . what does your tattoo say about Jesus? Many forget that when we profess to die to Christ . . . we also promised to die to self. When did our will become the over-riding concern in whether we get a tattoo or not instead of what Christ would think?

2. lol you're expecting God to deliver a fatwa on whether you shld spot a tattoo or not? You go wait tire. He already left you an instruction in righteousness . . . use it.

Look oga, I no fit fight with you today ehn. Like I said, I don't disagree with your high standards for godliness - when it comes to appearance. I do draw the line in making declarations for others[b] in gray issues [/b] what should be sin or not. I'm glad you've already said tattoos themselves are not a sin - so what are we still arguing about?

Cephas, you're indulging them too much sef.

I propose a solution to this issue once an for all:
-Adherents of the "Superhuman" doctrine should set up a video camera (cellphone camera will do too) and hit record. Proceed to cut sizeable gashes in themselves in at least 2 places. Then in however time (few days or so) it takes for the flesh to grow and fill back, they should record the same spot of the cut and provide as evidence they are indeed superhuman.

Any takers? MarcWill?

InesQor:
This debate na wa

Don't mind David, the guy can be very stubborn . But also very passionate about christian living.

davidylan:
lol you know we're in the endtime when choosing to err on the side of the scriptures is now considered "myopic" . . . its really no different from the "open-mindedness" atheists and modern day apostate "christians" now advocate. You dare not read a bible in some churches . . . you'd be accused of being "narrow minded".

Err on the side of scriptures - I will forever say amen to that.

Are those who believe women shouldn't wear pants also erring on the side of scriptures? those who say all genres of music other than "traditional gospel" are evil - they also erring on the side of scriptures?

The problem is you're projecting your personal conviction on the issue of tattoos and calling it "erring on the side of scriptures".

whiteroses "motive" was clear from the very first few words she stated.

And it is clear as e36991 just stated that she is still maturing, she needs instruction borne from love. And that does not mean we should declare ALL tattoos wrong.

Besides this foreign idea that "motive" is all there is is totally incredulous. David had a pure "motive" for numbering the Israelites . . . i remember God smiting them in His wrath. Judas had a good "motive" too . . . save the dough rather than waste it on pointless anointing oils . . .

Lol, a foreign idea? Hindsight is 20/20. We can read now that God did not approve of some of David's doings, I repeat again do you know the motives of every christian getting a tattoo and whether or not God has approved/disproved of it? Do you?

A tattoo has no spiritual value . . . if you know it kindly tell us.

Your blue jeans have no spiritual value, neither does your choice of shirt color or tie, neither does your haircut, your choice of car, your choice of lunch etc.
Do these things not also matter when presenting a godly image to the world? asking for the "spiritual value" of a thing? please, David you can come up with something better than that  

lol soon there will be "christian" organizations infiltrating brothels, strip clubs, corrupt political set-ups, gay bars all in the name of "preaching Christ" to a section of people "avoided" and "frowned upon by society people just like me".

Of course there are glaring limitations to the freedoms afforded to us in Christ. Involvement in the immoral and sexual/sensual is clearly forbidden in the scriptures -  getting tattoos is not.

Christ didnt need ear rings, tattoos e.t.c to "preach the gospel". If there is a reason the gospel isnt reaching those "avoided" (who are not avoided by the way), it is because the message we preach today as the gospel NO LONGER HAS THE POWER TO CONVICT. It has been diluted so much to avoid "offending" that lovely portion of society the likes of you would so love to reach. i.e in the bid to try not to be too "myopic".

when Christ preached . . . men were convicted and came from the uttermost parts of the earth to listen to Him. Today we preach and they laugh us in the face and even offer to buy us a drink and brand us with their "Jesus" tattoos.

You're saying a lot that no christian will disagree with. David, no one is saying we need any props or costumes in order to effectively preach the gospel, no.

 The simple question is "is getting a tattoo a sin"? a tattoo is NOT a sin. It's why you get it and what you get it for and whether or not God approved it - to that christian. What may be a sin for me, may not be for you.

davidylan:
Its stunningly simple . . . anytime you do something . . . stop and ask yourself - how does this project Christ in me. If getting a tattoo makes you the light of the gospel shinning on a hill then by all means get your whole body tattooed.

Paul wouldnt eat meat with some, not because there was a commandment not to eat meat served up to idols but so that he wouldnt project an image that doesnt glorify the gospel which he preached.

Ask yourself . . . when my friends see my tattoo, does it cause them to think about salvation and eternity? Or does it cause them to clap me on the back and admire my own stamp of identification with the world?

I agree 1000% with everything you've said here. The problem is you're being myopic and assuming everyone is like you, thinks like you, reacts to things in the same way you do.

Do you know the motive for every christian who's ever gotten a tattoo? how do you know they did it for flesh not spirit? Do you know what kinds of friends they have? do you know what kind of reaction they may have? No, you or I don't. So who are we to declare their actions sinful or not?

Do you know there are christian tattoo organizations that specifically infiltrate tattoos shows and conferences with the sole aim of preaching christ to a section of people avoided and frowned upon by "society" people just like you? They have taken a generally accepted as bad thing, redeemed it and are using it as a tool to reach the lost that you and I cannot.