₦airaland Forum

plaetton:
You make excellent marketing pro for the Toothfairy.

And you remain hypocritical in your perception of nature and the universe

plaetton:
Yes.
Plenty.

Cloud formations, movement and dissipations.

Mountain ranges and Rifft valleys.

Rivers and their Tributaries.

Forestations.

Continental drift.


These are all complex functional systems whose origins are underpinned by random chaotic events.

Urine and faeces are also complex functional systems whose origins are underpinned by random chaotic events

cloudgoddess:
This would certainly explain why peoples' supposed "revelations" are always so contradictory and self-serving.

wrong

PastorAIO:
These are all still acts. What is a judge without anything to judge. What is a protector without anything to protect. What is an avenger without anything to avenge. All your descriptions of God are based on the assumption that there are something else to which he bears these relations and attributes. Therefore before he created anything there can be nothing for him to be 'judge, father, protector, avenger' to. Therefore you cannot give him any meaningful description or attributes. To all intents and purposes you cannot say he exists.

Those descriptions of judge, avenger, and protector are only relative to his creation.

PastorAIO:
I see that you statement of 'impossible and unprovable' has already drawn some attention.
If God is self creating then why can't anything else be self creating?

God is not self creating.

Your questions are meaningless, because you reject the understanding of the very nature of God or the universe.

God is basically the conscious cause. He is eternal. He is boundless. 'Infinity is contained in Him'.

Me: I mean he is beyond everything and beyond everywhere.

I mean that he is the origin of everything that is, and by everything, i mean everything. space, time, energy, the realms material and immaterial.

I mean he is boundless and limitless and without end and immortal.

PastorAIO:
If God is, rather than self creating, eternally existent then why can't anything else be eternally existent?
If proving such things are 'impossible and unprovable' on what do you rest your claims that such is the case with God?
If God, an eternally existent being, why can we not presume that there must be other eternally existent beings besides him?

Because, eternal existence by its very definition envelopes everything. Eternally existent means/is continually present, and enveloping and filling all parts of reality...actually creation is contained in eternal existence, so more precisely, all parts of reality, all parts of creation, are enveloped and contained in Him. It means your presence and consciousness is everywhere and pervades every place. This does not leave room for anything else. If there was another being that was eternally existent, they wouldn't differ in any way. They would be the same being.

I have logically shown(proved) our propositions. Thank you.

What I have just said is captured in a way in a verse of the bible.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The word is eternally existent. God is eternally existent. The word was with God, The word was God.
Selah

PastorAIO:
What if the act of consciousness cannot be distinguished from the being of consciousness? Ie. that Pure consciousness is the consciousness of Being conscious.
If you want to separate the self from it's awareness of itself then the question arises, where did the awareness come from and when did it arise? if the awareness is as eternal as the 'self' then where does the distinction come in.
How does God's existence mandate that any of the above cannot happen? After all Nature has produced many things. Man himself has produced Robotics which you yourself have agreed show intelligence.
I don't quite follow. Are you saying that our minds are birthed from God's mind and that is how and why we have the attribute of consciousness?
What are the traits that one should look for if we want to determine if a robot, or anything for that matter, is conscious? I had no idea that it were possible to exhibit consciousness.Can you also give us an example of where Robots exhibited intelligence? I don't think we birthed the intelligence of Robots from our minds which is what you seem to be saying when you say that 'Mind births mind'.
Again, please how is our consciousness exhibited? What do we do that shows that we are conscious beings, while other parts of creation is not conscious?

It seems you favor specificity and correlation in the definition of words and details. I do too.

By consciousness, we mean sentience, self awareness in all the depth of feeling and emotion and communication and creativity. Intelligence is only an integrate of this knowledge of existence and living.

It is hard to define what makes us living souls. Although we all know it in our minds, it is difficult to encompass in a few words, because it is bigger than our communication. We can only mostly define the attributes of sentience as sentience.

We are animate and alive, and independent. No other organism has shown our complexity and our emotions and awareness and creativity and the animation of our communication and life, because they are not capable of doing so. We have MIND. Robots do not. animals do not. Mind is not a function of material evolution(do you dispute this?). Mind begets mind. Only an eternal mind is capable of drawing and painting us and bringing us into existence. Our sentience was birthed by one higher than us. And our awareness was once a plan in his own mind before he moved forth to execute.

Our 'aliveness' is not ours, but his. We don't have capacity to give anything mind, because there is and can only be one mind giver. As I have shown in previous explanations.
Robots are only functional material aggregates that run by algorithm. We are much more.

PastorAIO:
I hope you've noticed that all this while I've avoided asking for a definition of what you mean by consciousness, intelligence, and emotions. I've done so in order to not kill the flow because I've noticed that on nairaland nothing kills the thread more than asking people to define what they mean when they use certain terms.

And I hope you realize that your questions are so convoluted that I cannot possibly have addressed them all in this single reply.

bolt000:
its berra jaree.. 2nd hand doctors looking for ways to extort money from FG.


We sha have doctors here.

smh

bullabong:
Wait make Donald Trump mistakenly win,una go come home by force

lol. there are many other options apart from the Americas. There's places in Europe and Canada and even south africa here. We'd better make concrete decisions to make our environment favorable or anyone who sees any oppourtunity will vamoose.

blueto:
Nigerians are the best medical brains in the US. Albeit, our local medical professionals are also proficient but they lack the modern and palatable facilities for utilization and further vocational exercises.

Its time our govt consolidate on this vantage for consummate exploitation by working to provide incentive mechanisms that will motivate then to relocate back home with their auxiliary miscellaneous technologies that will aid and easy their medical processes by providing enabling environments for fascinating remunerations, exemption from tarrif and import duties remittance aiming at rebating the exorbitant cost of establishing and maintaining medical institutions.

We need our profound medical erudites back.

I am a Wailer, and I Wail for the Growth and Development of our dear Nation Nigeria!
Our Posterity Should Not Inherit An Impoverish And Under-Developed Country!!.

They actually want us to do sacrificial service here. Lol!

I love my country and will consider sacrificial service here(with post-graduate training in better equipped places)

But asking sacrifice from the ordinary man (who studies in ill-equipped environments for at least six years only to come out and be fighting to maintain his role in the system because other health care professionals are struggling to usurp his position due to greed and feelings of inferiority, who has to improvise due to numerous strikes and lack of suitable infracture) and you're wasting your time.

We'd better sit down and try to make things work. My guys are already prepping for the USMLE.

sonOfLucifer:
...
How about local medicines? The medicinal benefits of the kolanut? Our leaves and that nasty worm that grows on trees? Maybe we didn't have western medicine. But we had local healers who treated illnesses and sicknesses. If we didn't, we would all have been dead before they arrived our shores. ..

hmmm. i was typing a reply to this, but i gave up. realizing there was little point

sonOfLucifer:
Josshhhyyyy.. My man.

lol

shyshally:
Hmmmmm:-D:-)o

lol. so you still come here.

it's sad to know I'm no longer anonymous.

Weah96:
It was always going to end like this. You've essentially run out of arguments and can no longer continue the discussion.
That's what happens when you talk to divine google spirit people in your heart.

I have run out of arguments? seriously?

Weah96:
He is everywhere now, according to you. Where was he before he created this everywhere in which he now lives? Was he nowhere?

Joshthefirst:
before creation, there was no everywhere, and there was no nowhere. there was only God, in his infinity. All of creation is contained within him. He is eternity. He is the container of infinity.

Weah96:
And he talks to human beings in 2016 who then visit Nairaland to spread his message, right?

Weah96:
...
Josh already provided his answer. He claims that the god didn't stay anywhere, not even in the spirit place. He just stood in a corner with no space, time, or matter, or parents.

Joshthefirst:
As I have clarified, before the origin of place, there was no everywhere, and there was no nowhere. There was no corner God was standing in. There was only his Word, calling everything into existence. Birthing place itself from the vastness of his powerful nature. That is what we believe as Christians, so stop mocking like an eediot. If you do not respect my belief, it is hypocritical of you to expect me to expect your own belief of cluelessness.
Stop asking us questions if you cannot handle the answers we give.

Weah96:
Oh, I have no problem with your wild speculations about the initial singularity.
What I find interesting is that you speak to the god, the energy source of the singularity, and yet your actions don't justify the claim. For example, why waste your precious time here on NL , when you already know everything?

Joshthefirst:
How does speaking to god grant me omniscience?

Weah96:
Because you have a direct access to the divine google.
Whatever you want you know, you can ask the invisible divine oracle in your head or heart.
That's what I mean when I say that your actions do not match your claims.

Weah96:
The talking god existed without being in anything, not even empty space.
It was just the talking god by himself without space, time, matter, and even "spirit realm."
What a miserable existence!!!
But how did it create the first SOMETHING?? Any ideas?

Joshthefirst:
You sound pained and angered by something(God?) with all your mockery. I recommend you see a therapist. Pouring vex on nairaland will do you no good.

There's our history. Anyone who reads it can see where argument turned to puerile wailing on your part. I do not carry out discussions with childish wailers and mockers.

Weah96:
Because you direct access to the divine google

Whatever you want you know, you can ask the invisible divine oracle in your head or heart.

That's what I mean when I say that your actions do not match your claims.

Weah96:
The talking god existed without being in anything, not even empty space.
It was just the talking god by himself without space, time, matter, and even "spirit realm."
What a miserable existence!!!
But how did it create the first SOMETHING?? Any ideas?

You sound pained and angered by something(God?) with all your mockery. I recommend you see a therapist. Pouring vex on nairaland will do you no good.

Kay17:
Did he swallow that up too?! When you say God is infinity and eternal what do you mean?

I mean he is beyond everything and beyond everywhere.

I mean that he is the origin of everything that is, and by everything, i mean everything. space, time, energy, the realms material and immaterial.

I mean he is boundless and limitless and without end and immortal.

Weah96:
Oh, I have no problem with your wild speculations about the initial singularity.

What I find interesting is that you speak to the god, the energy source of the singularity, and yet your actions don't justify the claim. For example, why waste your precious time here on NL , when you already know everything?

How does speaking to god grant me omniscience?

sonOfLucifer:


I will.

Happy weekend LOJ(hello Jay), Reyginus(rage in us), JoshTheFirst(first what? ), tufanja(tough Angel), ishilove(Ish I love) , analice107 (analyze) and johnydondada

I can't really remember what I was thinking when I created the moniker Joshthefirst. lol. Maybe i wanted to come across as poetic.


Happy weekend guys.

Weah96:
...
FYI, the so called "spirit realm" would be a part of everywhere whether its accessible by the mammalian senses or not.

Josh already provided his answer. He claims that the god didn't stay anywhere, not even in the spirit place. He just stood in a corner with no space, time, or matter, or parents.

As I have clarified, before the origin of place, there was no everywhere, and there was no nowhere. There was no corner God was standing in. There was only his Word, calling everything into existence. Birthing place itself from the vastness of his powerful nature. That is what we believe as Christians, so stop mocking like an eediot. If you do not respect my belief, it is hypocritical of you to expect me to expect your own belief of cluelessness.

Stop asking us questions if you cannot handle the answers we give.

Kay17:
..

Since God was in infinity, at what point did he create the Universe? Because in an infinite flux, no point is actually attained. An example, if it takes infinity from point A to B, then it implies B will never be reached since infinity is inexhaustible.

Never said God was in infinity. I said God himself is infinity and eternity, and everything is contained in him.

KingEbukaNaija:
Bro I need you to think . God is of the immaterial realm and he caused the physical realm to exist . So Nothing means that there was no physical realm . Time/Space are of the material realm

Genesis 1 : 1

In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth

Now think again , the immaterial realm is still unknown to us- we cant paint a picture of an immaterial realm with the perception of the physical realm - but we were told in the bible God spoke the physical realm and its constituents into existence . And we understand these things by faith .

Psalm 33 : 9


Hebrew 11 : 3


So understand when a Christian says that God had a foreknowledge of his creation and caused it to exist by His Word . Nothing means no Material realm . Dont make the mistake of imagining the immaterial realm with your knowledge of the physical realm

cc : JoshTheFirst -- your opinion on this

Here's my take bro:

Genesis 1 : 1

In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

First, the bible tells us who was present at the beginning; the beginning being the origin of all things, of creation itself. God was at beginning. God, is not nothing. God has always existed, He is the I AM, so there has never actually been nothing.

Genesis also says God created the heaven, and the earth. I believe the heaven here doesn't signify the firmament, as that is physical, and was recreated on the physical earth.
Heaven in the verse is the spiritual realm itself.

The Immaterial realm has an origin too, God is the origin of all.

God's foreknowledge is his foreknowledge

Weah96:
He is everywhere now, according to you. Where was he before he created this everywhere in which he now lives? Was he nowhere?

before creation, there was no everywhere, and there was no nowhere. there was only God, in his infinity. All of creation is contained within him. He is eternity. He is the container of infinity.

Sorry its coming this late, but happy birthday ATMC!

Weah96:
Nothing is a very difficult idea to grasp. I think we use it in everyday vernacular without understanding the material implications.

I don't believe there is such a thing as Nothing.

PastorAIO:
I didn't realise that the Daily Mail was a scientific journal.

sciencedaily isn't a scientific journal also.

There are many sites that try to report/interpret scientific trends

Do you want us to accept only original journal entries as sources?

KingEbukaNaija:
Facts ? Or assumptions ?

Like the FIVE theories that try to explain the formation of the moon

Or the TOP THREE theories that try to explain the origin of life forms on earth

Do you see you we are against purporting spurious assumptions as facts

Thank you abeg

plaetton:
Scientific facts are not subscriptions. They are not religious beliefs one chooses to subscribe or unsubscribe.

I actually feel myself amazed at your bald-faced lying plaetton.

I choose to believe you're lying, not that you're too ignorant to differentiate opinion and theory from fact.

Theories can be subscribed to and unsubscribed to quite easily. We do it all the time in science and medicine. As knowledge grows, previously incomplete speculations and analysis are updated and former opinions are laid to rest.

plaetton:
And yes, the earth's geology, as well as her current ecology is a product of her violent and chaotic past.
That is a fact, not merely plaetton's opinion.

And you are parading lies on a public forum.

plaetton:
It's quite a difficult challenge debating or discussing with someone who is aversive to science and scientific facts.

Unfortunately it is also difficult for me to discuss with someone who doesn't know the meaning of the word fact. I am not your english teacher.

plaetton:
The Earth has endured numerous cosmic catastrophies in her 4.7 billion yr history, including extinction level collisions with other cosmic bodies.
In fact, the earth's geology, and ecology has been largely shaped and bear witness to such catastrophic collisions.

Please where were you and other scientists during the space of 4.7 billion years to record and observe these castastrophic events? And how come the scientists have survived till today?

plaetton:
...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160129090451.htm

Stop acting ignorant, Josh.

Stop spouting historical speculation as scientific fact plaetton. You shameless parader. You may subscribe to your unsupported illusion of order from chaos, but don't go about calling historical opinion fact and lying to do it. And you may invent planetary bodies for which you have no observation or evidence for and invent chaotic cosmic collisions and other stories, but do not go about spouting your opinion as fact, because that is dishonest, and idioti.c. And anyone who prefers to reason for himself for a few seconds will realize that what you call fact is nothing but a speculated opinion of history.

Nonsense.

lol. Guys will sit down and speculate what happened billions of years ago and what is basically unproveable and unobservable, then they will go about filling in the gaps by inventing imaginary planets and inventing imaginary collisions. They then go ahead and publish what they think may have happened, then plaetton and other doughnut munching atheists will carry their speculations and shamelessly parade them as fact.

I advise you to go and write your facts down and name the book plaetton's book of imaginary stories.
Busy giving science a bad name.

KingEbukaNaija:
This was what came into my mind when I saw his comment . Why hasn't earth been destroyed yet after ALL THESE years

he'll probably have a comeback like the earth's mass and shape has been drastically changed due to various obliterations over the billions of years. chai.

plaetton:
Thank you.

Now, our Intelligent Design friends would point at the earth's orbit as being perfectly arranged for for stability and life.

But they forget that it took the Earth about 1 billion years of CHAOTIC wobbling just to establish what now looks like a very perfect and stable orbit around the sun.
Even at that, the Earth still wobbles, talkless of the fact that a large passing comet can and has interrupted the earth's orbital trajectory from time to time.

That you and others actually subscribe to this is quite unfortunate.

I wonder why the earth hasn't been obliterated by or caused an obliteration of various other planetary bodies during its billions of years of wobbling and why we still have a standard environment thanks to its billions of years of wobbling and i wonder why it hasn't crossed the perfect and stable trajectories of other rotating bodies too.

plaetton:
Josh, you're a man of science, are you not ?

Aren't you forgetting something, an indispensable tool of scientific inquiry ?

It's called Mathematics.
Daahhhh !!

There are no ifs and buts in mathematics. The geometry and mathematical values of two things are either exact or not exact.
If they are exact, then they are same, similar or precise.
If they are NOT exact , then they are not same, not similar, not precise.
Comprende?

I have not suggested any ifs and buts in the formation of snowflakes so far. I have only stated that they are formed under precise atmospheric conditions, and I have stated that precise in this case does not mean exact.
In mathematics, there is probability, and there is variation. There is permutation and combination. There are sets and subsets. There is a precise set of atmospheric conditions for the formation of snowflakes, and there are variable subsets of that set that result in the formation of different types of snowflakes with different physical characteristics. Not hard to understand.

Snow won't fall at all if conditions aren't right enough.
Snow doesn't fall everywhere, because the atmospheric conditions for the formation of snow are not available in every place.

plaetton: No two snowflakes are similar , because not two snowflakes have the same geometry and mathematical value.
Simple.

So? How do variations in the physical condition of a particular substance render its formation chaotic?
The bolded is what you are stating as rule, and is not true.

plaetton:
If snowflakes were made by nature under " precise conditions", then the outcomes would be similar in design and complexity.
But they are not.
No two snowflakes are ever exactly the same , simply because no two atmospheric conditions per time and per space are exactly the same.
The conditions are in a constant flux, random and chaotic.

But they are.
You want to make this an argument over words?

Precise does not mean the same. It means 'fitting a particular accuracy'. That two conditions are precise does not mean that said conditions are 'exact'

You see chaos where order is beautifully showcased.

That conditions are precise, does not mean that conditions are exactly the same, and said products will be replicas.

Precise conditions means that conditions are consistent and agree with each other. Without the precise atmospheric conditions snow does not form at all.

When we see precision in a process, and accuracy of products made, then we cannot call such a process chaotic.

edited

plaetton:
Oh, there are far far to many to name.

But let me start with reintroducing , for the millionth time, to you, Uyi Iredia, Deepsight and Anony etc, SNOWFLAKES.

1. A snowflake is one of the most beautiful, complex and aesthetically pleasing creations of nature.

2. A snowflake is symmetrical, mathematically precise and incorporates 5th dimension geometry.

3. No two snowflakes are similar shape.

4. SNOWFLAKES Incorporate FRACTAL geometry in their formation.




SNOWFLAKES are formed when water molecules in the cloud freeze( a random event). Gravity acts upon them to pull them down through the earth's atmosphere ( a random chaotic event). While falling, they fall through different atmospheric temperatures and humidity ( a series of random chaotic events) .
Because they move through differing temperature and humidity regions in the atmosphere, different shapes emerge as they descend to Earth.

Because of the random chaotic flux in atmospheric temperature, pressure and humidity, No Two Snowflakes are ever alike.
This is proof that each individual snowflake is formed by purely random chaotic processes that is independent of the other.

So here, we see how random uncoordinated flux in atmospheric conditions act upon random water molecules of cloud droplets in the atmosphere to create a very complex, mathematically precise, symmetrical, aesthetically pleasing and one of a kind piece of art that plays very vital roles in the ecosystem.

I chose, once again, to use snowflakes to show how random Chaos produces order, symmetry, beauty and functions in nature.

It is the simplest , the most " in your face" example.

How many times will you be refuted on this?

Snowflakes are not made under chaotic conditions. They are made under precise atmospheric conditions that permit their formation.

Please give a credible example and do well to scrutinize it effectively this time.






PS: It's good to know you consider 'snowflakes' to be beautiful and have an orderly structure and aesthetically pleasing effect. Mind what you say from now on, and stick to what you have subscribed to, so that I would not use your very words against you.

sonOfLucifer:
Well, I already have a pot belly, a sexy one, folds seamlessly around my waist. Your interest in innards piques my interest. Are you on the organs market?

I only have their best interest at heart. simple. I'm not in the trade, I'm not obsessed or anything.