₦airaland Forum

Now, Mr B is also correct somehow.

Because the full stature of the person isn't seen.

Arguing from that point of view, he's correct.

Whoever sees your hand have seen you.


It's because of this; when Philip demanded to see the Father, Jesus said to him that he has seen the Father:

*. John 14: 8 "KJV:Philip saith unto him, Lord, SHOW US THE FATHER, and it sufficeth us.

9
KJV:Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Whoever sees your hand have seen you.


It's because of the above that it's said that Moses saw God;

*. Exodus 33:20 "KJV:And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

*. Exodus 33 :23 "

23
KJV:And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

*. Hebrews 11: 27 "

KJV:By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as SEEING HIM WHO IS INVISIBLE.


Some people are saying nobody has ever seen God...

Jesus said He protruded/projected from the Father:

Like somebody's hand projecting from his hiding place,

*. John 16:28 "KJV: I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."

Mr B said 'no, you have not seen him'

Who did Mr A see then, Janosky or maxInDHouse?

Whoever sees your hand have seen you.

The Trinity is like somebody (Janosky, for example) who is covered with vail/curtains/clothes but he puts out his hand.


The hand is seen but other parts are hidden.

Mr A saw the hand and said 'I have seen Janosky' ...

The Trinity is like somebody (Janosky, for example) who is covered with vail/curtains/clothes but he puts out his hand.

Ihedinobi3:
Hi there.

It's an interesting argument that you make and it is, in fact, correct in that it makes clear that Enoch's departure resulted in the same thing that death does for every other person, but it seems to me to ignore the fact that the language used for Enoch was strange in a genealogy where again and again we are told that "he died." Why is Enoch the only one in the whole genealogy of whom something different is said? That seems to be something significant, and that is why the whole business of what happened to Enoch even arises at all.

Furthermore, you yourself quote Hebrews 11:5 while completely ignoring the really straightforward bit that Enoch did not experience or see death.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
Hebrews 11:5 (NIV)

That is always very bad practice in interpreting the Bible. The Bible is not to be ignored in the things that it says, even if we feel that it should. If it says that Enoch did not experience death, then Enoch did not experience death. If it also says that Enoch's life on earth was brought to an end as is the case for all who die, then we ought to accept too that Enoch's life on earth ended at some point. Is there a contradiction? It would be wise to not accuse the Lord of lying. He never contradicts Himself. However, He is infinitely wiser than the wisest exegetes, so being patient to hear His explanation is always an excellent policy.

What then does the Bible mean in the case of Enoch?

Before I offer my own answer, I'll point out that Enoch was not the only one whose passage from this life was weird. The Bible records two others.

5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (NIV)

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more.
2 Kings 2:11-12a (NIV)

Now, the first passage above might seem normal, but it would be wise to note that Moses's gravesite was never known to any human being at all, and that is weird for any human being who is said to have died. Some people do die at sea. Some are consumed by animals. Some are cremated. Some are buried. In every single case, the site of one's final departure is not entirely beyond human knowledge, even if it may be unknown at first for lack of a witness. The following is why Moses's gravesite is unknown:

9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
Jude 1:9 (NIV)

Now, why on earth would an archangel (third highest rank of angels and grand commanders in the Lord's armies) be disputing with the rebel cherub (highest rank of angels and the only one prior to the Satanic rebellion) and ruler of the kingdom of darkness over the physical body of one believer? Why is the body important since every other body has suffered the same fate of decay? This conundrum is how we can be certain that Moses's death was quite unusual.

If we are still skeptical, it is useful to note that even at 120 years old, the Bible made a point of telling us that Moses was not even remotely at the door of death. People that healthy simply don't just die, if they are not violently dispatched from the world. So, Moses's death was unique, just like Enoch's and later Elijah's were as well.

So, what does it mean if these people are gone from this life and yet we have language that is suggestive of an unusual passage from this life? And why does the Bible say specifically that Enoch did not see or experience death?

I believe that the key is in Hebrews 11:5. It says there that Enoch was translated. As you very ably explained, that means that his location was merely changed, but obviously in an unusual way. So, now we must ask about locations.

Prior to the Cross of Jesus Christ, all human beings who died, whether they died as believers or as unbelievers, were taken to Sheol (or Hades, as the Greek has it). Of course, they weren't all put in the same place (that would be absurd), but Sheol was the world of the dead and of the prison of rebellious angels.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
16 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
1 Samuel 28:12-19 (NKJV)

11 “Why did I not die at birth?
Why did I not perish when I came from the womb?
12 Why did the knees receive me?
Or why the breasts, that I should nurse?
13 For now I would have lain still and been quiet,
I would have been asleep;
Then I would have been at rest
14 With kings and counselors of the earth,
Who built ruins for themselves,
15 Or with princes who had gold,
Who filled their houses with silver;
16 Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn child,
Like infants who never saw light?
17 There the wicked cease from troubling,
And there the weary are at rest.
18 There the prisoners rest together;
They do not hear the voice of the oppressor.
19 The small and great are there,
And the servant is free from his master.
Job 3:11-19 (NKJV)

5 “The departed spirits tremble
Under the waters and their inhabitants.
Job 26:5 (NASB)

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:22-23 (NKJV)

26 And besides all this, between us [Abraham, Lazarus and other departed believers] and you [the rich man and other unbelievers] there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
Luke 16:26 (NKJV)

That is, in Sheol, before the Cross, all believers who died were gathered to one place, called Paradise and Abraham's Bosom by the Lord Jesus (see also Luke 23:43). This is because, without a worthy sacrifice, there can be no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22), so until the Lord Jesus died, the Lord only forgave sins "on credit", so to speak. Animal sacrifice served only as a symbol of the Cross of Jesus Christ, so believers of old who carried it out did it as an expression of their faith in the Messiah who would come later to die for their sins. This is why they were called "prisoners"

18 There the prisoners rest together;
They do not hear the voice of the oppressor.
Job 3:18 (NKJV)

16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
Isaiah 14:16-17 (NKJV)

They were unable to go to Heaven because they were sinners too. But because they believed in the Messiah that the Lord had promised that He would send to die for human sin (Genesis 3:15), they were taken to a place of delight (that is why it is called a Paradise) separate from the place of Torments where unbelievers who died were deposited. This was where they all waited until Jesus came and died for all human sin and opened the way for them to go and be with their Father in Heaven:

8 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10 (NKJV)

As we know, when the Lord Jesus died, He went down into Sheol (Ephesians 4:9 above; 1 Peter 3:19; Luke 23:43). When He rose from the dead, however, He didn't leave Sheol alone. He took with Him all the believers of old and brought them back to the Third Heaven with Him, which is why Paul was able to say the following through the Spirit

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrews 12:22-24 (NKJV)

All this is to say that when Enoch was translated (and when Moses and Elijah were taken in the unique manner in which they each were), they were taken to Paradise where fellow Old Testament believers who had finished their work here on earth were taken too. When the Lord Jesus took these Old Testament believers to the Third Heaven, He took them too.

In conclusion, in so far as you define death as removal from this mortal realm - whatever the means by which this is done, then Enoch died. But clearly the Bible makes something of a subtle difference in how it defines death. This is why the living resurrection of the saints who will be alive when Jesus returns is so important:

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:51-57 (NKJV)

So, some of us have a guarantee from the Lord that we will never actually experience death. Rather, we will live to see the Lord Jesus return and in that moment of His Return we will experience the change of our mortal bodies into immortal, powerful ones like the one that our Lord now has.

I would say then that it would be wise to look at death as the Bible looks at it, not as you yourself do. Death is a truncation of existence on the mortal plane in some radical way that has to do with a disruption of human desire and expectation. Translation and resurrection are something else altogether. Yes, one who has been translated from the mortal earthly plane has had their existence here on earth truncated, but not in such a way that human desire and expectation has been cut short, rather it is in a way that this desire and expectation has been fully met. Enoch walked so closely with the Lord that the Lord took him to be with Him, rather than cut short his life here on earth. You could almost say that there was nothing of any value left for him anymore on earth, so there was no further point sticking around, since all his desire and expectation was with the Lord. Likewise, in the living resurrection, those believers who are changed triumph over death.

The Bible does not treat death like a positive thing. It treats it like an enemy. In fact, it calls it one (1 Corinthians 15:26). This is the reason that it is important that we respect what the Bible says about Enoch. Enoch's translation is in the Bible as a type of the living resurrection of the Church. Dismissing that costs us a significant blessing of encouragement that the Lord provides for us, especially for those who will live through the Tribulation.

[/b]. If it says that Enoch did not experience death, then Enoch did not experience death. [b]

May the Almighty God bless you abundantly.

You've given detail explanation to it in so much that I don't have any thing to say further.

Akamariner:
Op, show us the screenshot of the page where yours is written.

Oya we dey wait, abi heaven no get data?

BTW, what is the tittle of the book let me also download it and check my name.

He had shown you what to do in order to escape the wrath of God.

Don't wait until you'll say "had I known" on the judgement day.

*. Acts 17: 30 "KJV:And the times of this ignorance GOD winked at; but now COMMANDETH ALL MEN EVERY WHERE TO REPENT:
31
KJV: BECAUSE he hath appointed a day, in the which HE WILL JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Note:
GOD... COMMANDETH ALL MEN EVERY WHERE

TO REPENT...BECAUSE...HE WILL JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS...

Ken4Christ:
There is the teachings by Jehovah Witness that heaven is meant just for 144,000 people. This is a lie from the pit of hell. Below are proofs that every one who believes is qualified for the Kingdom of Heaven;

1. The Bible says that the rapture is for all saints both dead and living - 1st Thessalonians 4:13-16, 1st Corinthians 15:51-57.
2. Hebrews 3:1 calls the Hebrew church, partakers of the heavenly calling.
3. Colossians 1:5 reminds the church that there is hope laid up for them in heaven.
4 1st Peter 1:4 says our inheritance is reserved in heaven.

Every child of God is a citizen of heaven. Don't listen to the lies of Jehovah Witness.

My brother, the JWs teachings are completely opposite of what the Bible says.

I think their main goal is to have something different from other Bible users.

They have taught them hatred for other Bible users.

It's good as you continue to point out these things. Some people don't know these things.

I wanted to create a thread related to this but thanks be to God you have posted this.

Their teaching that Jesus is mediator for the GB and few others it's the most dangerous of all the falsehood.

Indirectly, they are saying Jesus' death is not for others.

The GB get mind o... they dey Newyoke de enjoy and tell their followers to forget about heaven.

God forbid bad thing...!

achorladey:
Simple option to pick out from, no way, you decided to go into your usual narrative. When you see DECEPTION you won't recognize it paapaa.


“Shimeon has related to you how God began to choose from the Gentiles a people for his name.”

1 Peter 4:14, 16......says something about the name

If you are being reproached* for the name of Christ, you are happy,+ because the spirit of glory, yes, the spirit of God, is resting upon you........NWT


But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed,+ but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name.......NWT

I don't need to SHOUT Jesus, Jesus. The name to bear is up there

I repeat if you see DECEPTION, you no go know


To rephrase 1 Peter 4:16 to fit your theology......


But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed,+ but let him keep on glorifying JEHOVAH while bearing this name([b]Christian) not Jehovah's witness[/b].......NWT



Back to your a people for his name goes into the realm of DECEPTION if the name you are talking about is Jehovah's witness

There's something about this guy... any time he does something, he'll quickly accuse another person of that.

Any time he accuses someone of fraud/deception/misquotation; check very well you'll see that he has committed that very thing.

Or he'll insult you and go his way... hahahaha!

Janosky is one of the Nland GB...!

JOBgame:
Majority of christains are polythesist some are even pegan due to the lack knowlegde they Have.


The reason why i wrote this not the matter of being religious or tribalical,but want to know the real mythy,fact,legend and stories about the confusion i have been living with.


*They said jesus is GOD
*they said he is son of GOD

How can a whole supreme spirit being(GOD) born himself,does that sound like truth to a good servant of god they keep deciving the society all the way in the name of going to church.these article am writing has been disturbing me since when i was 18 till date,am still wondering

some christains are the sources of their problems because of the way of worship some have been mistaken GOD for jesus,also for not belivng in the almigthy god the creator of that same jesus.

Understanding Jesus died for your sin and resurrected for your justification have a lot of benefits for you.

Believe and be saved.

hayzed1090:
. Believe whatever you want, I have lived all my life in the west here and never seen any body forced into islam or prosecuted for leaving islam . This is generally the problem of you anti-Islam. You derive joy in stuffs like this and you hate the truth . I just gave you a quote from the Quran, rather than simply verifying through google search you are asking if am a Muslim. Islam is a perfect religion but muslims are not perfect. It's high time you stopped judging the religion by the actions of some ignorant folks. If you want to understand the religion , do an unbiased research about the religion .

[/b]
Islam is a perfect religion but muslims are not perfect. [b]

This your talk resemble that of the JWs.

But one imperfect often accuses another imperfect belonging to other groups

hayzed1090:
My brother.. there are so many clarifications I would have love to make but I cant do that here . U need to read widely about Islam and not just stick to a particular view of people that has limited knowledge of the religion . The Quran said " let there be no compulsion in the religion "

I would have loved to read this your clarification.

1StopRudeness:
so of all the problem in Nigeria, this is the one that’s bothering you since 18....


Don’t let this things bother u, all religion is faith-based... it might not sound logical but it’s what it is....if u are an atheist I understand you position.. but if u are another religion, u don’t have point..

The Muslims belive it’s fine to stone and behead people for Allah and one of their prophets.. that it will give them access to heaven and plenty virgins
..why? they say the Quran/Hadith said so......and they will follow it to the end...is that logical...?? No... but people belive it anyways..

The Bible calls Jesus God, it also calls him the son of God....that’s what Christians also belive to the end....is it logical...of course not...that’s why all religion is based on faith......

Faith is admitting u don’t understand it all...but u belive all the same..

The guy is just looking for attention.
Let him go to the many thread that discuss this and see if he can answer questions.

We believe that what was told the devil in Genesis 3:15 it's about Jesus.

*.
KJV:And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and HER SEED; it SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Note:
HER SEED...SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD
it's fulfilled by Jesus being the seed of Mary.

Jesus bruised the head of the devil on the cross,

*. Colossians 2:15 "KJV:And having spoiled principalities and powers, HE MADE A SHOW OF THEM openly, TRIUMPHING OVER THEM IN IT."

We believe that what was told the devil in Genesis 3:15 it's about Jesus.

*.
KJV:And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and HER SEED; it SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Note:

7. In His lower-than-rock office; He's a Food (John 6:33,35,48).

Colossians 1 :18 "KJV:And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; THAT in ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE the PREEMINENCE.

7. In His lower-than-rock office;

He's a Food (John 6:33,35,48).

Colossians 1 :18 "KJV:And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; THAT in ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE the PREEMINENCE.

5. In His lower-than-animal office;

He's a Plant (John 15:1-2; Matthew 15:13)

6. In His lower-than-plant office;

He's a Rock (1 Corinthians 10:4; Psalms
18:31,46)

JourneytoEL:
very wonderful observation. thanks.

God bless you, sister.

haddeylium:
it's a sight to see Ex-Jw, churchgoers, freethinker, independent religionist leaving out their conflicting doctrines and making compromise to come together against Jw.
That's the effect of having the same line of thought.

Why am I not surprised, even tho those 450 Baal worshippee worship different gods , they come together to fight Elijah cos' he told them. He's the only one "worshipping the true God".
The Pharisee and the Sadducees have conflicting doctrines but they reach agreement when it comes to Jesus because he told them the same thing

That's same thing Jehovah's witnesses is telling you today. There's just one truth and it's with this God's people
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Console yourself.... All theists do unite to oppose atheists,

all Bible users unite to oppose Muslims...

in your mind atheists and Muslims are the
just one truth and God's people.

Watchtower go confuse you more...

3. In His lower-than-angels office;

He's a Man/human being
(Acts 2:22).

4. In His lower-than-human office;

He's a Lamb, Lion (i.e animal)
John 1:29;
Revelation 7:17; 5:5

JESUS IN HIS OFFICES
1. In His highest office; He is God (John
1:1-3; )

2. In His lower office; He's an Angel
(Joshua 5:13)

MaxInDHouse:
Do you still remember how Jesus updated John's teaching regarding ritual fasting? {Matthew 9:14-17} or you're thinking John was a fake Prophet simply because Jesus updated John's teaching? Matthew 11:11

Well that's how "the light is getting brighter" in true FAITH! Proverbs 4:18

So whatever you here from any JW now is the latest update!

No be lie more THE LIGHT IS GETTING BRIGHTER


now the brightest light is showing that Jesus resurrected as human being.

Anytime you see the writers not referring to Him as God, it means they are using/ referring to the other of His offices.

The meaning of the '1st born of every creature' is as follows

Jesus (God the Son) becomes all things that was created.

Any group of creatures He changed into, He becomes 1st born/Chief/oga/ principal of the group.

He abandoned His office as the true God and descended to be Chief of:

Angel, man, animal,plant, rock, water, food, light, etc.

He knows what it is like to be a man on Earth.

Now He has the full understanding of the situation of all His creatures.

It is a great wisdom for Him who is the Creator to come down to be with/like the creatures.

Some people have shown us all the characteristics of Jesus Christ as a creature but have refused to know Him as the Creator.

All that I want is in Je....sus,
He satisfies,....joy He supplies;...
Life would be worthless without... Him....
All things in Jesus I find.

No other name thrills the joy-chords within,
And through non else is remission of sin;
He knows the pain of the heart sorely tried,
Both need and want will by Him be supplied.