₦airaland Forum

davidylan: Pat Robertson doesnt need to donate to avoid taxes. His religious organization is already tax-exempt (the only reason the rhc pretend to give).

I always said it that fundamental christains like yourself and MrAnony are the most hypocritical and wicked people ever.


First, you people say that Rich people only do charity because of the tax benefits. So what about those who spend months in Africa and Asia with poor children and the less privileged? Is their time also tax deductible? Furthermore, can you read their minds? How do you known that some of them are not doing it to help?


Secondly, Bill Gates is fighting malaria. This is something that goes beyond charity. This is somehting that can only come from a person wants to make humans live a better life. Malaria doesnt affect Americans because the mosquito cant survive their weather. Bill Gates is not a biologist and so, you should understand the time and resources needed for him to set up a foundation or project to find a way of stopping malaria. But no, it is only ax deductible "charity" for you.


Thirdly, you defend Pat Robinson. No need to further explain


Fourthly, you and Mr Anony foolishly believe that selflessness and altruism are sole properties of christainity and a belief in God. What kind of wickedness is that to atheists, agnostics and unbelievers of your religion? What kind of bigoted and brainmwashed heart thinks like that?- that nyone born outside a christian or god believeing home is automatically a person without a heart? Are you insane?

LagosShia: i am not denying that God will judge or punish people for disbelieving.

but the context of the verses must be respected too.those people being referred to oppressed and harmed the muslims.

you cannot say because verses say "fight the unbelievers",that means we should fight any unbeliever we see.the unbelievers in this context refer to those who were oppressors and that is made clear in many places.you are missing the message of the Quran.

as for unbelievers,we know those who dont believe in Islam are wrong.but we cannot judge them or sentence them to hell.every person is an individual case for God to judge.thats all i am saying.

No one is talking about the verses that say that you should smite unbelievers. Dont do any bait and switch.


The Quran is quite clear in the verse about this one. It is talking about people who reject the revelation. If we take your interpretation, then the whole Quran is meaningless because there is now no verse talking about people who only simply disbelieve in the Quran/Allah-

LagosShia: i guess that question equally goes to deols.how do you know those magazines if you dont live in Iran?

well,who says Nigerians dont live in Iran?

these magazines are Islamic family magazines.they are distributed worldwide free of charge.i came across them through Shia brothers.then i correspond with the publishers to be sending me monthly.you do not need to live in the USA to have an "Awake" or "Watchtower" magazine of Jehovah's Witnesses.do you?

Lol...thats true.


Jehovah's witnesses' books are everywhere! lol

LagosShia: can you tell us who were those who rejected the revelations of the Quran during its revelation?

now this is the same case of misinterpreting Quranic verses regarding jihad.we are not to fight except to defend ourselves.

those who rejected the verses of the Quran are also addressed as "criminals who rejected our signs".they are being judged not out of compulsion but out of what they have done in their hate and rejection for the Muslims and Islam.

now regarding others who have done no harm to Muslims and they disbelief out of their own capacity of knowledge and their sincere inability to believe,Allah (swt) will judge them.whoever disbelieves and whoever does wrong would be judged by Allah (swt).it is clearly stated in the Quran that "he who wills should believe and he who wills should disbelieve".eventually God will judge and punish and also forgive whoever He wills based on divine justice.



well,i cannot judge you.

but i sincerely feel pity for you.you sound traumatized already.

I like how you dance around the issue but your interpretation is quite fake!


The preceeding verses of that Surah clearly talks about people who reject the Quran and not people who murder Muslims.



4;50 - people who lieabout Allah

4;51/52- people who allah has caused for believing in false objects of worship

LagosShia: i would not argue on what i said.you cannot roast a skin and think that is not transforming it into something else.and you dont put new one and think that is not substitution.i know you have a thinking problem thus you accuse others of lying when you are slow to process info.

do you expect the Quran to promise criminals to live in snow-white antarctica?

What criminals? It says clearly that hell is for those who reject the revelation or Quran.

So, you think that it is okay for me to roast in hell? For my skin to burn and be replaced to burn even further?

lolololol.....


None of them have evidence. they rely on mysteries(god of the gaps) or fallacies to prove God.


God of the gaps/mysteries

-We dont know how the first life on earth came- therefore, God created it!
-What caused the big bang? Dont know-God caused it!
-Where do we go afer we die? Dont know- We meet God!


Fallacies
-The bible says it, therefore it is true
-If I am wrong, nothing happens, if you are wrong, you go to hell!

Frosbel is an 1diot.


There is no doubt in my mind.


Frosbel, while you are at it, why not teach your children how to be muderers;



Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

LagosShia: so you think "transformed and substituted" is not the same as "roasted and replaced"?

"Transformed" does not mean "roasted"....sorry. Dont start lying here.


The Quran clearly says that I will feel the burning of my skin and after being burnt and new skin will appear for more burning.


Any book that makes a threat of violence to make its argument is not great in my opinion.

LagosShia: lol....

i know those magazines,especially Mahjuba.

Lol.....how do you know those magazines if you dont live in Iran?

dragnet: in as much as I'd have loved to converse further with you, I have reasons to believe that you arent being sincere with your questions. Else any reasonable being would have at least been able to see light in the replies given to your questions.
... Just another attention seeker
.... Mod kindly lock up the thread !

Typical muslim bigotry. You cant convince me or use logic to defend your religion therefore I am being insincere and the moderator should lock this topic.


Bigot

LagosShia: It looks like you derive pleasure trying to discredit me by calling me a 'liar' often.

Anyways here is exactly what I stated:

"Allah (swt) says their skins would be transformed and substituted to endure the heat".

Unfortunately, the Quran says a different thing. It says that people like me shall taste the punishment well well!



[size=18pt]Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.
[/size]

davidylan: did you read my post or you just copied it and then went ahead to bleat brainlessly as usual? I said they do this mainly to lower their tax bills, its the cheapest way to do so in the US. Infact many tax advisors will tell you that the quickest way to pay lower taxes is to either set up your own "foundation" or give to "charity".

lmao.......and curing malaria is just "charity".


Maybe should post the full picture;


https://humourtouch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Good-without-God.png

davidylan: you do know that they do this mostly to reduce their tax bill at the end of the year right?

Yes, Bill Gates is trying to cure malaria, something that your govt is not doing. Keep hating

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Love starts from God my friend, Only by reverence to God can a man truly love another.[/quote]Nonsense.

https://www.greatplay.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/GoodWithoutGod.jpeg

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Are you reading my posts at all? I don't hold John Gray's position. I am just borrowing bits from his argument. The question I asked which you are yet to answer is:

How does altruism (a totally selfless quality) hold any value in a humanist worldview where all virtue emanates from self?[/quote]The same foolish question again.....love starts from the self......how can you love other when you are no happy with yourself?

LagosShia: read my post again.i know you can do better than this.

You lied about the skin of a person made to endure the heat of hell.


The Quran says that the skin will burn and regrow, only to be burnt again. This all happens while the believers in heaven watch gleefully

caezar: I really, really, really should not be responding on this thread.

For one, the OP has not the capacity to comprehend my response, whether it be wrong or right. Also, this question has been beaten to death with answers, not least of which is the simple answer that the question is incoherent and illogical. But I think I have a resolution...

How does this relate to the stone?
Well, we can extrapolate this paradox to our own reality. We are beings observing God in a closed box. The fact that it appears to us that God cannot create a stone he cannot lift is due to the fact that we perceive the paradox as irreconcilable. This is a limitation on ourselves as observers not on God as an omnipotent being! We are trying to place limitations on a God that, by definition, created all things, by using tools that were, in the first place, created by that God. Therefore, the paradox is that we're trying to measure God using tools that he created!

The above paragraph is essentially a rehash of the incoherency argument. However, it bears significance on my "resolution".

Man created rulers and scales. We are measured by our own tools.

Your argument is silly.

1) There is no way to even confirm that we are seeing God from a closed box. We cant even perceive God with any of our senses the first place and so, hopw do we even see him

2)If God created all things then he created himself. An impossibility!

caezar: I propose, if your imagination is aligned with mine, that God has in fact created such a stone which exists today in our reality. I think evil would qualify as such a stone.

Of course, God exists only in our imagination

LagosShia: MacDaddy,

i am just going to offer you a piece of advice:if you are sincere insha'Allah by next year's fasting,you will be Muslim.

all the points you raised are trivial except for the question of hell fire.if you do a bit of research,you can get convincing answers.as for relationship of a muslim woman with a non-muslim man,it is not in the interest of Muslims for that to happen.you may feel it is unfair for you,but this law isnt meant to be fair to you regardless of the points or ideas you raise.the law may be unfair to you,but its objective for having it is perfectly fair for Muslims.

going to the subject of hell fire.firstly,as a Muslim myself i do not love seeing people suffer in anyway.that stems from my God-given humane feelings.the questions of hell fire can be misunderstood easily.as a Muslim first and foremost i believe Allah (swt) is merciful (al-rahman) and Just (al-Adl).in fact like i stated in another post,"al-adl al-ilahi" or divine justice is considered as one of the fundamental beliefs in Shia Islam as Tawhid (oneness of God) is considered also.if God is just and merciful,then He is the judge.so if no one deserve to be burning in hell fire then be assured no one would be there.and be rest assured that if anyone make it there,that person would be so evil that in fact would deserve more and that is the least punishment the merciful and just God is giving him.

the issue of hell fire in itself should be understood on its own.hell fire is a realm of existence on its own.you will not enter hell fire as the human being you are living on earth.that is evident in the Quran.Allah (swt) says their skins would be transformed and substituted to endure the heat.there you're experiencing such an environment,you're in an entirely different existence and you're transformed to live in it.for instance,if fishes can talk,i can tell them that i would punish a fish by bringing it out of water.that would definitely sound horrible to the fish.and the fish would think of death and the suffering before that.but in hell fire you will not think of death because you will be made to adapt into that environment and it becomes part of your being.the magnitude of the horror is purely from an earthly perspective even though hell fire isn't something to wish for regardless because we are created and meant to be as we presently are.so if the fish is told that it would be taken out of water and instead of gills it will be transformed into something else to adapt to the atmosphere,then that would become part of the fish's being.i hope you get what i am trying to explain.

as for halal foods,sometimes the food you eat also have spiritual implications.you become what you eat.even though you can cook pork well and make it safe for consumption,but i would not want to become a pig.you may say would i want to be a cow? well not and i wont become a cow,but there are many things about the pig for instance that isnt cool when compared to other animals.i am saying this aside from the health risks and effects.also,there are commands God have put in place to check us and test our obedience and sincerity.

What?


Your answers are quite circular

-Hell; Godis just!
-Halal food; You might become a pig if you eat pork....spiritual punishment

Seriously? Are you kidding me?

tbaba1234: ^ These are not your problems; the main problem with you and many atheists, if you are honest with yourself is your refusal to accept that you have a master.... The refusal to be grateful... I have dealt with you enough times to know that even if all these concerns are addressed... You will still find a reason to reject... so i will leave just one reply.

Thanks for your reply but you seem doubtful that I would take you seriously?

Anyways, I hoped to get into a discussion with you.

dragnet: take each number of my reply to the correspondin reason number...
1. the punishment for every crime is not the same. A tip of this can be found in the Glorious Quran when Allah(swt) says in Quran 4 vs 145...''Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the
Fire - and never will you find for them a helper ''
......and also from The Hadith which states the punishment for the Prophets Uncle which is that all he would get is to wear the shoes from hell''
..... So My GOD ALLAH is just and there is none like HIM.

Wrong. Hell for the murderer is the same for the adulterer. The hyporicte and the muderer still end up in everlasting fire and so, there is no difference

dragnet: 2. All what islam prohibits as regards food have been found to be truly harmful, you can do a little research to confirm these.
As regards your worm, Islam wont make it haram if it doesnt fall into the stated ones in Quran 5 vs 3 and some other places..
during the lifetime of the prophet, he was offered A lizard as a meal whe he visited a tribe, then he frowned..the companion with him asked that ''is it haram ?''..the prophet replied ''No, but it isnt part of my culture''..then the companion took the plate nearer and ate.

Is pork more harmful than fish or beef?

dragnet: 3. as regards the reasons you listed in the relationships. Lets be sincere, are these reasons not true ? And we can take instances from our immediate society.
a muslim is to abide by the rules of Islam therefore woman cant marry anybody she choses and same goes for the male too except what has been stated in the Sharia.


I hope I have the time .. I have to go now..but I'm sure there are ppl who can treat the issues better.

So you accept breaking the human right of freedom of association?

tbaba1234: When are you becoming muslim, this guy?

https://www.nairaland.com/1019298/honest-reasons-why-not-muslim

My full answer is on that thread

Seems you guys need to know why we dont accept the Quran or Islam;

https://www.nairaland.com/1019298/honest-reasons-why-not-muslim

Yes, I am an atheist. Some people on this section already know that I was once drawn to Islam. I come from a christain background and after seeing the flaws of christianity, I dabbled in some islam. Unfortunately, I didnt find its arguments appealing after some research. Soon after leaving christianity, I had a muslim girlfriend but she failed in her efforts to convert me.


So I am here to give you a honest view of why I do not believe in Islam. These reasons are not to bash Islam. They are also very clear and not things that are subject to interpretation,


1) Hell

I ran away from christianity's notion of hell for unbelievers in Christ only to meet another version of hell in Islam. For me, hell does not make sense. Punishment must fit the crime. Man lives for an average of 70 years, why torture him for more than 70 years? Why must hell be eternal? Furthermore, why should the same punishment meted out to liars and murderers? They are not the same crime or sins. Remember that Ar-Rahim (Allah is the merciful) and Al Ald (the utterly just). Seriously, I am going to the same hell for squeezing my girlfriends breasts with war criminals, murderers and cocaine dealers?

Also, why should I accept that my relatives and ancestors are all going to hell because of their personal choices? Some people in my village rejected christianity and remained pagans and most rejected islam to accept christianity. Are they going to hell just because they rejected islam? What if they live good lives?


2) Halal Food
I am a spoilt child from a rich family. I grew up eating the things that I like and that affects me up until today. I dont eat a lot of vegetables and many other foods. Now how do I become a part of a religion that will limit my already limited choices of food? Do you know the painful thing? Vegetables are F****ing Halal

Furthermore, there is the edible worm that is a snack in my culture. Islam would make that haraam. This is hard to accept since people from my village live long and they have been eating such for many generations. It has little or no side effects.

3) Haraam relationships
Funny enough, this was the actual thing that turned me away from Islam. Not a logical reason but an emotional one . I received a lot of hate from my muslim girlfriend's family and some other muslims because I was not a muslim. My first muslim girlfriend (yes, I have had two ) was very close to me and I was even thinking about converting. The thing that put me off was the hostility- what matters more, the religion or the happiness and welfare of your daughter? Some of my cousins have married atheists and Jews and they had support from our family.

The Quranic law is clear; a muslim woman can not marry a non-muslim. While muslims can see this law as reasonable and good so that the children/wife do not become non-muslims, it is harsh and unreasonable to the mushrik/kaffir for 5 reasons;

a) It assumes that the woman is weak enough not to convert the husband or the children.
b) It assumes that the non-muslim man will force his religion on the muslim wife. If that is so, cant a muslim man do the same to his non-muslim wife?
c) It goes against the human rights of freedom of association. A woman can marry who ever she wants.


4) Muhammad
Muhammad was a wise man, no doubt. However, how am I supposed to learn about marriage from a man that had 12 wives? How many educated women would willingly be the 11th wife of a man today?

How am I supposed to learn how to be chaste from a man with 12 wives?
How am I to learn from a man whose lifestyle has no resemblance to modern lifestyle? What are Muhammad and his Quran going to teach me about the internet or toasting internet muslimahs like fellis ? How are we going to judge whether it is halal for me to play with my neice with a pig toy or a pig character in a video game?



I have other reasons but I wonder how one can overcome these reasons. I will reveal more reasons depending on the reception i get from this thread.


However, dont you think I have valid reasons?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Yeah quite rightly so. . . .but remember we all have choices. The question is: Are you making the right choice?

I have heard you many times on this forum complain about hell and how God must be evil for sending someone to hell.
Now even if God is imaginary and hell/heaven is imaginary, I think now you will agree with me that in a case such as yours where a person constantly resists God that it is only fair that God should allow the person to face the consequences of his choices and not force the person into heaven against his will. Don't you agree?[/quote]Hell is the most foolish punishment I have ever heard of in my life.


Man lives for an average of 70 years but punish him for an eternity for sins committed in the 70 years?

The God of the bible does not exist, he is the most foolish and most wicked douchebag ever.



https://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/168/308/god%20meme.png

[quote author=Mr_Anony]On the contrary, the complete part of that passage starts with Love the Lord thy God. God is the beginning of everything.[/quote]God? What does God understand about love?


-Telling a man to sacrifice his son (Abraham)
-Drowning the whole world except for one man and his family (the son of Noah ironically turned out to be a pervert)
-Sending his son to commit suicide (For God so loved the world but ated his only begotten son and sent him to die like a fowl on the cross)
-Creating hell for the unbelievers (God to man; I love you so much but if you dont show that love with slave-like obedience, you shall burn! )


https://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/090/222/PYz7q.jpg

tbaba1234: ^ I didn't post this to highlight a miracle.. You haven't explained the 'stuff', i have shown you in the recent past or reproduced them.

I think, It is fascinating that the mosque suffered two major incidents: - For the muslim, it highlights the mercy of God. It could easily have been destroyed as well. Then there will be no story...

It is a good story, make of it what you will...

When are you becoming muslim, this guy?

1) So the muslims killed in in the war did not have the mercy of God? God just loves the building?

2) There were other buildings that withstood the bomb.

3) I am never going to be a muslim. I just like muslim girls- they are difficult but nothng good comes easy. The trill of danger is also cool.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Love is also selfless. I am not trying to twist anything. All I am asking is how can true love/altruism/selflessness can logically exist and have value in a society whose morality is based on the self?[/quote]"love thy neighbour as thy self"-----Even christianity recognizes the "self doctrine"

If you cant love yourself in the first place, how can you love others? Self is the beginning of everything.

I personally prefer


"church of private jet swagger"

Tbaba


You are a smart guy but when you do articles like this, you just turn most people off with your "muslim miracles". If it is not some numerology in the Quran, it is some mystery in the muslim world!


Each and everyone of them get dismissed as coincidences or naturally explainable phenomena.


Enough with these miracles!


At least I was enjoying your journey through the Quran...............

okeyxyz: @IamPhantom, The only place I agree with you is that homose.xuality should not be criminalized, I don't believe in punishing people for a "nature" they have no power over, But somehow that is not even the argument you are making here, Your argument is that we should redefine marriage to legally include homose.xuality, then redefine our cultural values to pander to and celebrate homos.exual values too, in aspiration to meet western standards and lifestyles. And to make your arguments you have simply gone on a rigmarole of delibrately twisting and misrepresenting information and quotations and references. At the end of the day, what started out(In my opinion) as genuine presentation to show empathy for the plight of a "persecuted" few is tarnished by the obvious guile that permeates and degrades it's entirety.

Like I said before, Homosexuality should not be a crime. But that does not make it is representative of our culture, as you have made great effort to show. Yes, senate president David Mark said "It's against our culture, tradition and beliefs", was he wrong? somehow you think he was. He did not say(and nobody for that matter is saying) that there are no homosexuals amongst us, but simply that it's a practice that we frown upon, it's a practice that we resist an abhor therefore we constitutionally make same-se.x marriage illegal according to our laws. Why can we not do that? Because there are people who are gay? Is that a sound reason for not moving forward to make our laws? Do we say that: because rap.ist live amongst us, there are news or rap.es every week, therefore rap.e is our culture, therefore we should condone and accept such? your points just don't make sense.

Another deliberate misrepresentation throughout your article is that the majority are imposing their religions on the minority. Another lie. Where has it ever been said that one must be a christian or moslem? where has one ever been prohibited from choosing his own religion or without religion? We are simply saying: We have a set of values that are dear to us and we demand that you respect them. You may not agree, but you should respect them, just like polygamy is a crime in US and Europe, whether or not your religion or culture permits your to have multiple wives/husbands.

In trying to make a case for homose.xual marriages, you cite the igbo tradition where a married, childless woman "marries" another woman so she can legally bear children for the husband, You go on to call it a homose.xual marriage. Really? perhaps you don't even know the meaning of homose.xuality, It is a sex.ual orientation, it is a sex.ual desire for somebody of same se.x as yourself. So my question to you is: where is the homosex.uality in that union? Are the women sanctioned to have intercourse with each-other? I just don't understand how this makes sense to a simple adult, let alone one as obviously "learned" as you.

You also stress that culture and values should not be a basis for making laws, surely you cannot be this naive, you write too well to be of a "simple mind", Okay, i hereby challenge you to name one country on planet earth where culture has not shaped their laws. Wait, i'm thinking maybe you don't even know what culture is, otherwise you'd know that democracy is a culture, slavery was a culture, definition of marriage is a culture as evident from western europen countries now redefining marriage to accept homose.xuality, because culturally they have embraced such. the right to bear arms is an american culture, etc, etc.

You have simply made rubbish of an opportunity to empathize with and understand people of a different leaning.

Yes and beheading as a capital punishment was in our culture. Sending a widow to be the wife of the brother inlaw was also in our culture. Killing "witches" was also in our culture. Just because something is culture does not make it right.


We have moved away from some things in our culture but bigots like yourself choose to keep the foolish things in our culture because they are in line with your white man's religion called christianity.....the same goes for the Arab slaves called Nigerian muslims.

LagosShia: ah,i see

i never knew you're such a knowledgeable Islamic scholar in field of hadith.

Sarcasm wont help you. Why not address the issue. Muhammad marrying the wife of a slain enemy.

davidylan: If your only reason for supporting the evolutionary theory is that it is not shy about being taken apart and examined then i put it to you that you are on very tenuous ground and that at the end of a very rigorous scrutiny, evolution ends up being the opposite side of the same coin... religion being the other side. The only difference between you and I then is that while i exercise faith in Jesus, you would prefer to exercise blind faith in a scientific theory that is no where near being proven as true.

"God did it" may not be a satisfactory answer to you but is "random chance" a more logical alternative?

My response to the two questions is very simple - the same evasive illogic that atheists desperately use to plug the gaping holes in their favorite theory.
KAG's point for example... if indeed evolution from apes to humans was not the purpose and random chance is why we are what we are then why dont we see semi-humans with only one set of lungs? why really do we need two when medicine has proven without a doubt that we are capable of adapting just as fine with only one? Why do we not have half-apes and half-humans? would they not be capable of adapting just as fine as gorillas in the wild for example?

You are not a real biologist.


Havent you heard of speciation? Our common ancestors with monkeys got split into different species. We have different monkeys in the same hominid family as us humans. So to say that humans are some kind of ultimate evolutionary species is wrong. Other species evolved.

Now to the question of one lung or two lungs, who who knows if such symmetry gives the body a better circulatory than one?


Whatever it is, we should not use mysteries to prove or disprove things. The problem is that you as a christian can not avoid such fallacies. You use mysteries to try to prove God (eg origin of the universe, miracles, where we go after death etc). You also use mysteries to try and disprove evolution-

" evolution can not tell us where the first single celled animal came from, therefore it is false"

"Evolution can not fully explain lifespan, therefore it is false"