₦airaland Forum

The sophist are here again singing their usual elusive songs. . . . .

Kay 17:
If not because of my funny phone, i would highlighted the very very very clear parts of what i was saying. Never said necessary evil was good but tragic.

However, part of my view dont u agree with?

There is nothing like necessary evil as such. . .Killing a person as an act of self defense is not evil. . .At least the society that I live in says its right and not wrong. . .You can kill a person when he is trying to kill you for no just reason and you won't be punished in fact you will be praised in some places. . .He is just trying to go with the baseless assumption and farce argument that God is the source of human morality when reality and the fact is that humans are the source of all their moral principles and moral codes of conduct. . . .No God has anything to do with human morality since its humans that chose what is good and bad for them to live by. . . .

Enigma:
^^^ Do you accept that there is objective moralty? Otherwise what is the basis for classifying anything as "evil" or "good"?

Morality is NOT objective. . . .It varies fromplace to place and is ALWAYS evolving. . . . .The basis for classifying anything as evil or good is based on the society because men create ALL moral values and codes of conduct. . .Morality is mostly based on consensus and what they feel is best for them and will lead to less chaos in their society or what they believe will make them flourish and co exist in peace. . . .Even if we are to accept that morality is objective you are yet to show that any God is the source of human morality because if we are to use the example of not killing innocent children as an objective moral value humans hold then your God then fails to be its source cos we have him telling his chosen men in the bible to kill innocent children. . .A source of objective moral value can not be seen going against such a principle. . . .

If you go with the view that there is no objective morality, then there really is nothing that makes r.ape, murder, adultery, lying, stealing, covetousness etc "evil"? Is female circumcision (so called FGM) evil?

Your argument is pointless and baseless. .  .R[i]a[/i]pe is bad because it causes  pain  and distress to the victims, lying is NOT bad in some cases. . . Murder is wrong because it causes pain and distress to the the victim and his relatives. . . if left  unchecked it will lead to chaos in the society. . . .Female circumcision is evil because it affects the reproductive organ of the females and leads to compliactions during child birth in some cases. . .And there is no reason why women should not enjoy s[i]e[/i]x. . . . .

If you go with the view that something is "evil" because a particular society says so, then why attribute "evil" to God in the first place?

Because he was just trying to show you how illogical it is to claim that a God that is said  to be all good yet believed to be the creator of evil. . .

Even if we confine it to "natural" evil, what makes an earthquake, a tsunami, even a birth defect "evil"?

The pain, agony and destruction they cause make them evil. . . .

Enigma:
First, I'll remind you that my original question was (a) what was "good", (b) what was "evil" and (c) WHY?

What is good and what is evil is determined by men(society) that is why we have law makers who determine what is moral and immoral. . Morality does NOR come from any God. . .Humans create all the moral values they chose by. . .

Second I'll show you the logical consequences of this answer: survival is "good"; doing what it takes to survive is "good"; cannibalism when necessary for survival is "good"; thus, necessary "evil" is "good"!  

If according to the law of the land cannibalism when necessary is good then it is and will be good. . .If the society says its bad then it is and will remain bad. . Morality is NOT objective. . . .Some societies can accept it and others will not accept it simple. . .

This means that you accept that there is a God; your only problem is that he is "evil"; if so, fine. Otherwise, this is a useless argument which you will have to withdraw!  

The same thing with the use by you and your friend of Isaiah 45: it means you both accept that there is a God; your problem is that he created "evil"; if so, fine. Otherwise, again this is a useless argument which you will have to withdraw!  

I believe he is just trying to show that it is logically inconsistent. . .You can't be all good and go about creating evil( as defined by humans) at the same time. . . .

Enigma:
PS Oh and another thing: ask the so-called atheists* to explain the source and basis of their morality!

Humans are the source of ALL moral principles. . .Morality  and ALL moral principles were created by humans and they choose to accept what is moral and what is immoral mostly based on consensus and what they feel will be best for the society, when stealing other people's lands was what was best for your God;s chosen men we have him telling them to go and invade other people and take their lands because it was flowing with milk and honey. . .What is moral today can be immoral tomorrow and vice versa. . .Morality MUST be learned. . .It started as a result of experimentation. . .Read your bible and you will see how the morality of the people and their God kept evolving. . .Their God started by accepting incest, accepting the killing other people that are outside the race of his chosen people, tolerating and sanctioning slavery, rejecting sick people from entering his temple , being openly sexist, accepting human sacrifice, having a chosen people, telling them its ok to kill others because they do not worship him. . .People(religious leaders) ALWAYS use God as the central authority back in the days when creating moral principles that they themselves created they use God to make it binding. . .If they wanted to marry 4 wives, then the commandment will always come from God, if they want to stop acts like homos[i]e[/i]xuality then God is the moral law giver. . .All moral laws are created by humans , they vary from place to place and are constantly evolving based on consensus, culture and way of life of the people. . .Dominant cultures most times influence the weaker cultures to accept their moral principles after they have invaded them or colonized them. . . Christianity and Islam are good examples. . .

How can there be objective morality if there is no God? How also can there be good and/or evil? If there is no God, how can anything (r.ape, earthquakes, poverty, etc) be evil in the first place? Afterall, their so-called "evolution" teaches "natural selection".

There is NOTHING like objective morality. . . Morality is NOT objective and it varies from places to place. . Back in the days some people in Nigeria happily and willingly sacrifice their twins as sacrifice to their Gods until a superior culture made them stop it. . .Incest was once acceptable even in your own bible same with human sacrifice and killing of others that do not believe in Yahweh. . .Cutting of people's arms is morally acceptable in a society that practices sharia but is frowned upon in the west, in fact sharia law and its moral values is an endearment to muslims but it is considered barbaric by non muslims. . .Marrying of girls as young as 14 is perfectly acceptable and moral in some parts of northern Nigeria (and in some Islamic societies) but it is frowned upon in other parts on Nigeria. . .Animals have rights in some parts of the world but lack it in others, slaughtering a ram in public is considered as a normal thing in Nigeria and it is morally acceptable to some people as a religious duty but it such an act is considered immoral in a place like Denmark. . .If objective morality exist then the God of the bible does NOT exist. . .If killing innocent children for example is an objective moral value then you can not say that such a value came from the God of the bible since we have him telling his chosen men to kill innocent children because their parents worship other Gods and other s[i]i[/i]lly reasons. . .

Ra[i]p[/i]e is evil because it causes unnecessary pain, agony and suffering to the victim and its end result is that it affects every body negatively in the society in one way or the other if it goes unchecked. . . if every body is to go about ra[i]p[/i]ing women there will be no peace in the society cos their relatives will seek revenge and revenge might lead to chaos which can lead to instability in the society so it is only right to criminalize it because failure to do so will lead to chaos in the society. . .Earthquake is evil because it causes a lot of destruction to all forms of life. . .Through years of moral evolution humans have know come to understand that life has value and should be preserved and protected at all times. . .We came from people that sacrifice their kids, women, enemies and animals to their various Gods for either a good harvest or when their is a drought. . .Morality is NOT objective. . .ALL moral laws and principles were created by men. . Men chose and decide what they feel is morally acceptable to them and what is not. . .Morality MIUST be learned and it is ALWAYS evolving and it varies from society to society. . . .

davidylan:
Let me respond to tbaba's post:
1. He is absolutely right, the number 1 reason we are created is to worship the creator. No surprise, no one creates a product that is not meant for a specific purpose of benefit to the maker right?

People made this assumption. . .When did any creator appear to you and told you that?. . .What is the purpose of the asteroid belt in our solar system?. . .The mountain lion also worships the alleged creator eh?. . . .Interesting. . .

4 and 5 are intertwined . . . most people love the concept of "freewill" UNTIL it comes to God. You have free will to live your life as you pls, why is it a problem when you suffer consequences of poor choices? When is it ok for God to intervene?

SOOOOO many people around DO NOT suffer because of poor choices. . .What poor choice did a baby born blind make?. . .What poor choice did a Christian evangelist that was hit by a stray bullet which rendered him paralyzed for the rest of his life on his way to preach the gospel make?. . . .

I duff my hat for you Jayriginal. . . .

Craig responds calmly and confidently, and reminds the audience that almost nothing Avalos has said (1) builds a case against the Resurrection, nor (2) rebuts the arguments Craig gave in this debate. Avalos focuses on a linguistic disagreement with Craig – but of course nobody in the audience can tell who is right, and it wasn’t even part of Craig’s case in the debate.

That's part of Craig's debating tactics, no matter what his opponent says he will still repeat that his opponent did not make any case if refuting what he has presented. . . .Avalos lost his temper no doubt by allowing Criag's under handed tactics to get to him but any body that listens to the debate will tell you that Avalos won hands down. . . .He brought down Criags point head on and didn't give him breathing space to do some of his tricks, he asked him question he couldnn't or deliberately refused to answer. . . .He pointed out that what Craig likes to call facts are no facts at all and made Criag to admit that some of the new testament stories are not historical. . . .The debate his there for any honest person that wants listen to it. . . .

Enigma:
Interesting debate: funny the atheist debater couldn't go beyond the standard atheist mantras that we have identified and that we have seen repeatedly on this forum. Another interesting observation: if a top atheist "thinker" like the debater here [b]quite so plainly avoided the arguments for the existence of God put to him by Craig, how can we expect the local evangelical atheists here to have the capacity to face those arguments.?[/b]How can we be surprised that all they can do is snipe with the same typical evangelical atheist codswallop?

Anyway, enjoy: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-nULVvgbx0&feature=autoplay&list=PL1E634D387E3E5D4C&lf=PlayList&playnext=1

William Craig isn't a honest debater, he won this debate no doubt but when face with like minds you see him throw the bible and the God he claims he is defending under the bus. . .He begins his debates with stuffs like the genesis creation account isn't factual, the big b[i]a[/i]ng is. . . .Old testament morality is immaterial but then goes to use the God of the bible as the source of human morality, he uses worn out scientific arguments or use the hypothesis the fringes in the scientific world to support his claims. . . .

Here is a debate between him and Sam Harris a person that knows his tactics and brought him down completely. . .

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqaHXKLRKzg[/flash]

Another one where Hector Havalos completely used him to mop the floor. . .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHQJvn4Hnh8

N101:
Technically, the law recognises traditional/customary marriages, Muslim marriages and court/registry marriages.

As someone rightly pointed out, if you have a registry marriage, you can't take a second wife or you will be guilty of bigamy under the law. But at least it means you are married according to law.

The other thing is that, unlike is other countries, many religious places cannot issue a marriage certificate as they are not registered to do so. This is why people end up going to the registry as well as having a religious ceremony.

Churches issue marriage certificates in Nigeria. . . .

^^

Many people do not consider themselves legally married until after they have done the church wedding. . .Many people do not even consider the traditional wedding as legal as the religious wedding. . . .The wedding certificates issued by religious institutions are seen as the paramount in Nigeria, as such even old couple still go back to renew their vows in the church if they hadn't done it before. . . .When I talk about culture I mean religious culture. Our people identify with their christian and islamic cultures more than their traditional cultures in Nigeria. . . .People do not value the registry weddings because of ignorance as you said and also because most of them believe that religious marriages are paramount. . .

^^

Sure, but you are dealing with a set of people that do not see the registry wedding as something that is valuable, most Nigerian ladies will prefer to marry in the church or according to Islamic tradition than in the court when given the choice, many see the religious weddings as the only legal wedding since they believe it is sanctioned by God. . . Religious wedding supersedes any registry marriage both in the eyes of the males and the females,it has more to do with culture than anything else. . .

Outstrip:
Nobody says that you should not have a religious ceremony. The registry puts a legal stamp on it. What responsible man would not want to give his wife and children that security

Very many Nigerians believe that the religious ceremony puts all the legal stamps on all marriages, after all they are tying the knot in the presence of men and God according to the beliefs they hold and that to them supersedes any registry marriage. . .Many Nigerians consider registry marriage to be invalid that is why we have more religious weddings than registry weddings in Nigeria. . . .

I have a friend whose family had to cancel his wedding because his girl that is an adherent of the grail message said she will only have a registry wedding instead of a church wedding, they didn't want him to marry her in the first place because of her religion but when she insisted on having only a registry wedding his people vowed never to attend the wedding he had to cancel it. . . .Religious weddings are more valuable to Nigerians than registry weddings. . . .Very few people marry in the courts. . .The conventional weddings are the traditional weddings and the religious weddings. . .

Islam is a religion of Piss not peace. . . .

JeSoul:
Lol. Hilarious@ Frosbel & Joagbaje . . . paintings getting ruined . . . frosbel's kids complaining . . . ROTFLOL . . . you guys are funny. I'm sure its a phase, don't worry you'll get past it . . . hopefully lol. Just log off so you don't get alerts of new replies. I'm usually not online at all (not even email self) over the weekends, was doing some online music practice today which is how I ended up here . You guys should set limits and stick to it before una start to dey crase

Ogajim . . . you are funny . Most american wives complain about their husbands sports watching . . . [b]thankfully my husband & I [/b]are both sports junkies - american football, bball, soccer, tennis, track & field etc. As for my Pats, mehn, our offense is now stumbling, if they lose against those damn Jets tomorrow ehn . . . I won't be happy at all  btw, how are our RedSkins doing these days? 

Jesoul are you married already?. . .

A religion that encourages people to kill infidels in its holy book can not be said to be peaceful. . . .A religion whose adherents go about killing others while chanting Allah is great can not be put  together with peace in the same sentence. . .

[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, [2.217], fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, persecution is graver than slaughter. . . [2.218]. . .strove hard in the way of Allah. . .

There are many such verses in the koran that muslims use to justify killing infidels. . .Besides according to the koran the worst creatures in the sight of Allah are those who disbelieve. 8:55. . . .So extremist muslims see nothing wrong in killing infidels since Allah dislikes the unbelievers. . .

Many Nigerian men due to their up bringing believe that a wedding that isn't held according to their religious belief is invalid. A lot of muslims and christians hold that belief. . . .

Outstrip:
If a man (especially in Nigeria) tells you that he does not want to do the registry think then my sister run and don't look back.

Some men reject it only for religious reasons. . . . .

OLAADEGBU:
At least you agree that humans and animals were vegetarians before the Fall. What gave you the impression that there were lions and tigers before the Flood?

Which mythical fall and flood are u talking about?. . . .So the new excuse is that there weren't tigers and lions before the mythical flood,eh?. . . .When will you learn to stop lying to yourself?. . .

How far Oga wirinet?. . . .

OLAADEGBU:
"Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food" (Genesis 1:30).

All animals were originally vegetarians and this will be the case when Jesus restores His creation back to its perfect state at the millenium and the New Earth (Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25).

Mister man, learn to admit that you are wrong when you are caught saying things that are not true, even your mentors(answers in genesis) postulate that all living things were vegetarians before the fall of the mythical Adam and Eve in the garden of eden not during the time of Noah. . . .So lions, tigers, leopards, hyenas etc were all eating grass before the Noah's flood , eh?. . .How will a lion feed on grass with its type of canine dentition?How will it properly chew the grass?. . . . . . .Prophet OLAADEGBU. . . .

If there is anything that provides good evidence to show that Gods do not exist, its prayers. . . .There is absolutely NO evidence what so ever to show that those that pray have their wishes and request granted than those that do not pray. . . .I am surrounded by believers quite a lot of the time depending on my location since i travel a lot. . . . I have been around very sincere christians, muslims, hindus etc. . . .I have seen a VERY sincere christian that prayed for over one hour before he embarked on a journey, but ended up having an accident that has left him paralysed and unable to walk till this day. . . . .People keep coming up with all sorts of excuses like God is testing him and he should remember Job in the bible and all sort of nonsense just to justify belief, but the thing is, how does the accident help him as a person? how does losing his ability to walk, have s[i]e[/i]x with his wife, being a good father and providing for his family help his life or spiritual growth in any way?. . . .very many christians that pray to God for protection have found themselves in his shoes with no answered prayers. . . .No evidence to show that christians or muslims that pray are better protected from harm and misfortune than atheist for example, harm and misfortune affect us all. . . .

Just look around you and you will see that a lot of very sincere christians suffer all forms of misfortune from loosing their jobs, to ill health, to family break down, to general disasters and misfortune ALL the time just like every body else and no evidence to show that they recover faster from it as a result of prayers better than other groups. . . .A look at Nigeria says that there is NO God that answers any prayers, Nigerians are the people that pray the most as far as I know and yet the country remains a cesspool in all aspects and facets. . . .Prayers only offers hope and some kind of internal peace because you believe some one has heard and is seeing what you are going through, but in reality its useless. . . .Try your best to do what you can to see that you get what you want and ALWAYS know that you can't have all what you want, you win some and you lose some. . . .That's the way life is. . .

Did OLADEGBUU really say that animals were vegetarians before the flood?. . . . In what part of the bible was it written? Make things up as you go is the name of the game. . . .

After hanging out with a lot of ladies from different parts of africa i can confidently say that nigerian girls on an average have a bad attitude compared to other black girls from other parts. . . .

Joagbaje:
I didn't say God lack the ability to protect. He has laid down principles for us to enjoy his blessings. Angels are involved in protecting people. But we also have responsibility to create atmosphere by which they function. That's what faith is all about. We live by faith in the Word of God.

Habakkuk 2:4
. . . the just shall live by his faith.

Being a father does not make you father to every body. God will be a father to those who relate to him as Sons. He is nit a father to everybody. He is neither a God to everybody. If a man has not embraced the lordship of christ, God is neither his father nor his God. He has no God.

Ephesians 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Your assertions will be true only if many christians that believe in your God do not suffer from harm and misfortune. . .There is NO evidence at all to show that christians that believe in the God of the bible are better protected from harm and misfortune than non christains that do not pray to that God for protection from harm and misfortune. . .

frosbel:
Destroyed my baseless arguements    You lost me with this one.

What is the point of continuing with a merry go round debate , seeing that blindness has overcome you and your folk/

The conclusion is that only God's mercy can save you , seeing that you are determined to lose your soul for some silly made up fables that have not one iota of logic.

"Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God." - 2 Corinthians 4:4

He is doing it here again. . .

Theists: Make a long wall of text consisting of:

1) Start with a "problem" for atheists (ig, "morality without God is just personal opinion", "science doesn't explain everything", "the theory of evolution leads to genocide". Life is useless without God. . . .God is love and we are his special creation. . .

2) Follow up with "atheists, OPEN your hearts!"

3) Statement of faith/theology, followed by massive amount of bible verses. . . .

4) After going on for five or six pages of bible verses, expect your audience to be swept away by the words of God. .(words of men in reality since everything about the bible was written by men. . .In fact the book was put together through a vote by the roman catholic church)

5) If they aren't, then they have closed their hearts, and will know God only after death, when it's too late.(those of us that were raised and indoctrinated in the christain bubble of delusion will be with Jesus while those that weren't or where indoctrinated with other religious beliefs will suffer in hell for all eternity )

Meanwhile, we're left wondering if we should list the strawmen and faulty logic, or if it's not worth responding to someone so far off the deep end. . . . .


LAST TIME I CHECKED SATAN HAS BLINDED YOUR EYES TO THE WORDS OF ALLAH WHO IS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, NO?. . . .

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41H7hcpRPDM[/flash]

frosbel:
^^

You Sir are one deluded one.

After he completely destroyed your basless arguments this is all you have to say abi?. . .

frosbel:
Christianity started after the resurrection of Christ whatever your contrary accusation maybe.

The fact that they were first called Christians in Antioch means nothing.

It means a lot cos the people that started the movement and made it what it has become today are NOT Jews but Gentiles. . .All of the NT were written in Koine Greek not in Aramaic. . .

Romans politicised Christianity hence the catholic church,  through the fake conversion of Emperor Constantine.

You are a christian today ONLY because the Romans adopted the christian religion and proselytized it all over their territories. . .The people that brought the religion to your fore fathers were not Jews. . . .

the main body of Christ over the past millennia has  survived   persecutions, massacres , ostracization , ridicule and all sorts of rejection , but they have marched on and laid their lives down for their love for God and mankind.

Which is the main body of christ? Those that subscribe to your own version and interpretation of the bible?. . .No such thing exist. . .Even the writers of the bible had different ideas and conception of who their God weas to them hence the many contradictions that abound in the book. . . .The same missionaries that brought the religion to your fore fathers where the same people that enslaved them, no? Talk about love of God and humans. . .Your bible is full of your chosen men of God enslaving and killing others because of their lands or because they worship other Gods, no?. . .

As we speak , in middle east, Asia , parts of Africa, Christians are still been killed for their faith and love for God.

Christians have killed many for practicing other faiths as well, so what are you saying?. . .

Most of what you see in Nigeria is not Gospel but fraudspel.

This remnant still exists today in the millions scattered across the globe.

Your own opinion. . .

On a more serious note, I am worried for Nigerians like you who think it is cool to be an atheist , copying the recent development in godless Europe ( white man's atheism religion ) . Let me tell you , it does not make you an intellectual , rather in the eyes of GOD you are proud deceived fellow who needs to repent urgently before it is too late.

I say this out of LOVE .

I am not an atheist because its cool to be one. . .Some years ago I was just like you, just found out that I was deceived all along. . . .In the eyes of you and those that wallow in your bubble of delusion I might be proud or deceived but the REALITY is that you are the one wallowing in the bubble of delusion. . .

Governor Patrick Ibrahim Yakowa of Kaduna state was on the President’s entourage, along with former Plateau state Governor, Joshua Dariye, and Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) chieftain, Chief Barnabas Gemade.

Imagine convicted criminals like Dariye among the presidents entourage. . .No wonder he is asking people to pray while he surrounds himself with the best kind of security Nigerian money can buy. . . .