₦airaland Forum

italo: No evidence that you evolved from fish...yet you BELIEVE, Atheist.

Your former pope, John Paul believes in evolution, most cardinals believe in evolution, in fact a cardinal not long ago came out and said that the genesis story is a myth. . .These are people that know about your religion and its origin much more than you. . .

Uyi Iredia: True, though contestable. Funny thing though is the majority of atheists do believe in evolution and Dawkins made the famous statement on evolution making him ' . . . an intellectually-fulfilled atheist.'

I am an atheist, i do not believe in evolution. . .There are many others like me. . In fact there are more christiansd that believe in evolution than atheist. . .Half of the Christains in the USA believe in it, they only believe that god guided the process, same goes for most european chriatians. . .The catholic church believe in evolution for example. . .

italo: You should ask your frllow Atheist, Logicboy. Ask him what "spiritual" means too. He said Atheists are spiritual.

What is morality?. .

musKeeto: Just like the Christians killed by Muslims in different Religious crises around the country deserved to be killed...

I truly hope the muslim jihadist kill him and his family, because they truly deserve allah's wrath for being unbelievers. . .

italo: It would be interesting to know what an Atheist's morality is all about..

What is morality?. . .

bigass: No need to ask. Oyedepo prayed for Yaradua. He was not healed. TB Joshua prayed for Kanu he had to do open heart surgery. Cecilia Ibru is a deacon in Redeemed. She spent her prison term in a hospital. Obadare died a blind man.

Reinhard Bonnke goes round Africa "healing" people and allegedly "raising" someone from the dead, but he himself suffers from poor vision(shortsightedness) and uses corrective lenses. . .When will he heal himself?. . .

Uyi Iredia: I thought theirs was more like morality in atheism is self-defeating.

What is morality and why should it be self defeating in atheism?. . .

Logicboy03: Welcome to the life of logicboy!!!

Imagine the best christian debaters here- Anony, Enigma etc mostly hold that atheists have no morality. These people are bigots of the highest order

Lashing out, spreading lies and misconceptions, and demonizing the enemy is a natural way to react to opposition. . . Any anti-atheist backlash atheist are witnessing is simply the result of reactionary mean-spiritedness, and nothing more. The misinformation is a sign of desperation. . . .They accuse atheists of lacking moral codes. This is, of course, irrational, fear-mongering nonsense. . .I have asked them to define morality and they refuse to do so, instead they keep spewing nonsense gibberish. . .

When will any god heal an amputee and restore their amputated limbs back?. . .Why can't any god do this?. . .

You have to be strong. . .Religion is a way of life, in a very religious society like Nigeria it encompasses everything, and unfortunately the type of religion practiced in Nigeria is the fundamentalist type the uses only fear to keep its members and adherents in line. . .We you reject religion you reject the culture and way of life of the people around you and it must make them angry and sad. . .Nigerians have religion so ingrained in their lives that seeing someone without religion threatens them. . .They simply cannot conceive of somebody not believing in a deity of some sort. The idea is completely foreign to them, and therefore menacing. It forces them to evaluate their own beliefs, they become frightened and angry so they just fight back, using the only way they can. They become defensive and attack because the things they hold intrinsically and unquestionably sacred are being challenged. . .We reject things they take very seriously and it is natural for them to feel disgusted and hateful. . .Every religion condemns unbelief because if unbelief is encouraged there will be no religion. . .Religious people generally do not like each other, they ONLY tolerate each other. . .The bible begins that any body that does not believe is condemned already, the koran says allah dislikes the unbeliever etc. .

No need trying to show yourself as an atheist in a very backward, ignorant and intolerant society like Nigeria where most people believe the bible or the koran came down from heaven. Even the christians and muslims love killing each other over their various religions, so you should expect worse as an atheist, since they theist living in Nigeria do not even like each other, they are just tolerating each other . .90% of the christians and muslims in Nigeria do not even know how the bible came about or the history of their various sects and religions. . .Most of them believe their various gods started it. . .

Here is a youtube video that will help you understand why theist hate or dislike atheist. . .



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU

italo: At best, a mere rant. No evidence of anything you said.

The evidence of what am saying is that many people here on the religious board, like frosbel, davidylan, olagdebguu etc have a different idea and conception of god than you and as such to them you are lost, on the wrong path and a non christian. . .Even in our own religion, different people have different idea of who god is. . .to them you are not even a christian. . .You god is a very man made idea. It exist only because people believe in the idea. . .

Image and his twisted and sick logic truly believe that unbelievers and their kids deserve to die, he calls it judgement and justice meted on them by god. . .I hope that muslim jihadist kill image or his kids some day so that he will also test allah's justice for his unbelief. . .Allah is the only true judge and image must test his justice for being an unbeliever. . .I hope the jihadist kill your kids someday, then we will want you to come here and defend some kind of wired and sick form of justice that only you and your sick mentality understands. . .You are a sick human being. . .

italo: God is spirit and I perceive him Spiritually. So I am under no obligation to prove his existence scientifically. If you assert that I am lying about this spirit then YOU prove that I perceive no such spirit.

If you think that people who make non-physical assertions must prove them scientifically, then prove to me that you love your mum, prove that you are an Atheist, prove that you are thinking before posting...that your posts are not a result of a random chemical reaction etc, tell me what is love, thought etc..Let's see if you practise what you preach.

If you cant prove these things, you have no right to assert them to me...or expect me to prove anything to you.

No god is an idea, as such you need systemic indoctrination to accept and believe in the idea. . .I am not telling you to prove anything because I know you can't. . .You god remains and idea that humans conceived as such your only evidence is the feeling the god idea gives you. . .Muslims, hindus, scientologist etc all get this spiritual feeling you get. . .Your god does not exist in reality, what exist is the belief and the idea and those that subscribe to it. . .

italo: So you dont have to prove your assertions...but religious people have to prove theirs...

Hypocrisy!

Religious people make scientific assertions, like god creating the universe, if that is true then there must be scientific evidence, if god heals people through prayers alone then there must be evidence for it. . .Saying that i should proof that god does not exist scientifically is nonsense, because you first have to provide scientific evidence to show that god exist then i will use the scientific process to test it and disprove it. . .So far the only evidence you have provided to show that your god exist is that you believe he exist and that is not an evidence. . .Provide evience then we can test it and show if it can stand the scientific testing only then can we disprove it scientifically. . .So far you have only presented an idea using words and you want us to disprove it scientifically. . .It doesnt work out that way. .Now tell me what is god? you have to define it first and give us its full attribute then we can test it and see if we can disprove it scientifically or not. . .So tell us what your god is, how we can test it and know that it is your god and its specific attibutes. . .we can begin from there. . .

italo: Is this supposed to be your evidence that I do not perceive Jesus everyday?

Can you also prove to me that you do not believe in God?

(Scientific proof)

God is an idea ancient humans created to help them explain things away, to make them rule over others and bring about order in the society. . .People use god to explain death, famine, diseases, sorrow, happiness, origin of man and the universe etc. . .God is just a human idea to explain things away that is why there are many gods, and even within the same religion people have different conception of who god is, as a catholic, i know many christians here like frosbel, truthlight and davidylan just to mention a few that believe you are not a christian because you have the wrong views about the christian god, but because you have been indoctrinated since childhood in a systematic way to believe and hold unto what you have been taught you actually believe it is you who is right while they are wrong. . .

The fact that there are many gods shows that it is a man made idea and conception. . .Jesus is real to you just as shiva the goddess is real to a hindu guy living in india. . .Its all about indoctrination and make belief, god is an idea and as we all know when it comes to religion belief is equal to seeing. . .In other aspects of life seeing is beliving, but when it comes to religion beliving is seeing. . .

I don't have to prove that your god doesnt exist scientifically because it is an idea and as such many people just create or form their own thoughts and conception about such an idea. . .All gods are man made as such you can not point to any god that exist on its own without human input. .

italo: You are just speculating. How are you sure that I do not perceive Jesus everyday?

You have no evidence for what you are saying.

I said all gods are man made, and they all remain a man made conception and idea. . you perceive jesus just as a muslim perceives allah and a hindu perceives the hindu goddess shiva. . .

plaetton: Wow. i can't believe that you would say that.
You must be really desperate.
It is very interesting that goes right to the meat of my intended thesis on this thread.
Everything now dovetails right into fear and doubt.

We have successfully , but inadvertently cornered you into the fear=doubt mode.

By your incoherent tone, what I would call "religious decoherence", we can observe that you have become fearful of not defending your faith strong enough. Fear is creeping in. Your deep doubts risk being exposed, hence the recourse to ill logic.
I would not be surprised if you suddenly whip out the spiritual immunity card and start waxing spiritual.

I keep asking them to exlain what sprititual means and every time I do, i get some incoherent gibberish. . .

italo: Another wild meaningless rant from another Atheist.

What ever, the problem is your god has specific qualities and attributes, he is not the non interventionist deist type of god you are trying to sell. . .God remains a human idea, as such no god can be shown to exist on its own without human, writings, stories, human and societal acceptance etc. . .Once people stop believing in a particula god idea it dies, once people beging to believe in a particular god idea it lives, 5000 years ago, your jesus god was not in existence because the idea had not yet be conceieved, 2000 years ago allah god was non existent because people had not yet developed that idea and written books about him yet. . .the god that existed in ancient egypt was ra amun now that god is dead because people have stopped writing about him and believing in him. . .Your god is dying in the west. . .Even people that believe in the god idea you subscribe to have diferent ideas and conception of such a good. . .That is why we have many denominations of christianity, with different bibles, mode of worship and different ideas of who god is to them and how god acts or should act. . .God REMAINS a man made idea as such no god can be shown to exist on its own independednt of human input. . .Your god remains a man made idea simple. . .If your god ecist then so does Zeus, allah, shiva , Ra amun, and all the other gods and goddesse out there. . .

nnofaith: italo just wants to prove god exists by force. i forgot to even ask him which of the gods?

His catholic god and his wife santa maria. .

udatso: what makes quran special. Please download Al-qur'an The Ultimate Miracle in epub or pdf format from archive.org/details/Al-quran-TheMiracleOfMiraclesDeedat.pdf

Muslims claim the koran is a miracle because the words are well arranged, right words are used, excellent poetry, good rhythm etc. . .I really do not see how that fits into anything. . .

^^

Frosbel has shot back. . .Muslims what say you in defense?. . .

Dzany: @mazaje,
i'm not a christian.......
Get that into your skull matey!.....
I dnt give 2f**k about any religion.......


Yes......98percent of biblical stories are allergory ............do you actually think moses parted a real water or adam and eve were the first peeps on earth
even Jesus teachings were all in parables.............do u think Jesus physically rose frm the dead?
Peeps like you just read the bible on the surface level and take ur frustrations on xtain..........
Seek man, and you shall find......
I dnt have the time to babysit anybody on biblical teachings....enjoy your indolence!!!

Bla , bla, bla sheep have you any wool?. . .

[quote author=Mai-suya]@enigma

If u have bothered to read through the post u will notice that tbaba actually quoted the original author on that website I.e Jerald Dirk in many places. How can you plagiarise and still reference the person? For your information it is called content analysis or more loosely, paraphrasing. (I guess while at it u would also accuses Dirk of plagiarising others he referenced in his write up).

Quit the ranting and provide a rebuttal already, or stop distracting.[/quote]Plagiarism exist even in his own word of god. . .So i really do not know what he is on about here. . .He should open a topic on how the author of the gospel of Matthew plagiarized the writings of the author of gospel of Mark so that we will know he is serious if he is so worried about plagiarism. . .

The allegation of fraud and plagiarism has been used to end this topic. . . .Enigma should quickly label the author of the gospel of Matthew a fraud because he plagiarized a lot of his writing from the author of Mark, he quotes the gospel of Mark verbatim in many places, without citing his source. . .So much for fraud and plagiarism. . . .Even in the alleged word of god plagiarism exist. . .I laugh in plagiarized Greek. . .

Dzany: @op,
biblical stories are allergory......
Get that into your skull man!!

Christians don come again ohh. . .Everything in the bible is now an allegory. . .Adam as Eve story is now said to be an allegory, tower of babel, Moses in Egypt, soon in a few decades the story of Jesus crucifixion will be said to be an allegory as well. . .

@ OP

Interesting topic. . .Now Yahweh has ran away to outside space and time according to the apologist who serve as his mouth piece. . .

tbaba1234: I am not talking about the rhythm. I am talking of something far greater. Remember, the Quran humbled some of the greatest poets in Arabia and they couldn't reproduce it, it is not about rhythmic patterns. What am i going to talk about (if we meet) has nothing to do with poetry.

I am talking about coherence.

Just a little discussion on the longest chapter (286 ayat(verses) and there is a lot to say but just a few words:

The surah was revealed over several (about 12 years) years mostly in the city of medina in different circumstances as spoken word. Yet the ideas are so beautifully woven together and coherent in an incredible fashion. This surah exhibits a fascinating kind of coherence known as the 'ring composition...

Definition of Ring composition

'In ring compositions there must be a correspondence between the beginning and the end. The correspondence usually involves the repetition of a striking or evident word or phrase, and there must be a clear thematic connection between the two sections. The correspondence serves to complete the circle and provide closure. Also, the internal sections - within the ring - must correspond to each other.' ("Thinking in Circles: An Essay on Ring Composition" Mary Douglas)

In Raymond Farrin's 'Surat al-Baqara: A Structural Analysis'

Raymond K Farrin concludes on the ring composition of surah al-Baqarah:

"Indeed this sura exhibits marvellous justness of design. It is precisely and tightly arranged, as we have seen, according to the principles of ring composition; even the section lengths fit perfectly in the overall scheme. Moreover, the precise structure serves as a guide, pointing to key themes in the sura. These occur, according to the logic of the pattern, at the centers of individual rings and, particularly, at the center of the whole sura. At the center of the sura, again, one finds instructions to face Mecca — this being a test of faith; identification of the Muslims as a new, middle community; and the message that all people, regardless of their qibla or spiritual orientation, should race to do good and God will bring them together."

A simplified picture of the structure is shown below

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/559131_480476388629467_978866203_n.jpg

He wrote a whole book on the structure because he was so fascinated by it. He is a professor of Arabic which gives him a higher level of appreciation. This surah has 286 verses... That is how long it is, yet there is a remarkable coherence.

It requires deep thought to understand its flow. You also have to understand what it is talking about and how one discussion links to the next. It is not always easy to know but if you know the context of revelation and the language, it makes things easier. This is something, i have been studying and i think, it is incredible.

You can not read it like a bed time story, it requires some thought. Your claim of incoherence primarily comes from a lack of appreciation or understanding of what it is saying

I'll study this tomorrow. . .Am sleepy. . .Good night. . .

lanrexlan: Oops,why ranting all these? Is the Quran a science textbook? You said the Quran is a book of disjointed discourse,the challenge is that you and your mentors should come together and produce the like of the Quran,is that too hard to produce?

Produce a book like the koran in what context?. . .Is it in its rhythm, poetic prowess, practical knowledge, scientific knowledge or what?. . Stop throwing words around without context. . .

tbaba1234: @ Mazaje, If we ever do meet, I will have a discussion with you on just first chapter of the Quran, trust me, even if you do not become muslim, you will leave with a lot more respect for the coherence of the book.


More Evidences today.

I admit the koran has considerable rhetorical power, its obvious to any one that reads it. . .Because that is the tradition of the ancient Arabs. . .In ancient Arabia poetry was a passion. Poets were highly regarded in society, and the words of many accomplished poets were regarded as next to god's words. In a desert land, bereft of much entertainment and natural relaxation, the ancient Arabs used to find solace, peace, tranquility and even the raging emotion of war and revenge through the mesmerising words of their poets. Poets supplied the Arabs with their mental food. . .So it is normal for a book like the koran to be very rich in poetry. . .

lanrexlan: Welcome after all your long epistles.My questions are very simple.
1)Bring a chapter from the bible that's the same with the Quran.I mean a full chapter and not some few verses.
2)You said the Quran is a book of disjointed discourse and sometimes makes no sense.You and all your mentors should come together and produce the like of the Quran,that should be very simple for you I think.
Surah Al-Isra 17:88- And if Jinns and Mankind were together to produce the like of this Quran,they could not produce the like thereof,even if they helped one another.

What exactly are you on about?. . .Why must a chapter from the bible or any other religious text be the same with the Koran when they are not the same book?. . .How does this challenge make sense?. . .I can bring chapters from the bible that are at par with the koran when it comes to how god is praised and ex-halted for example. . .The bible is not the same book with the koran as such i can not bring a chapter from the bible that is the same with the koran. . .Your challenge makes no sense at all. . .You fail to understand the historical context of the passage, the ancient arabs pride themselves in their poetical prowess, the challenge was for the ancient pagan arabs to produce a book that has as much poetical prowess as the koran. . .Its claer you do not even know the historical context of the challenge. . .

You keep repeating this challenge that makes no sense. .is the koran the best book in the world?. . .Pls name anything, any system that has been talked about in the Koran, be it science, politics, economics, astronomy, law, banking, finance anything that the Koran has touched and I will provide books that have explained these systems much better than the koran can ever attempt to explain them. . .The modern biology text book used in secondary schools in Nigeria explain biology more than the koran can ever explain it so what exactly are you saying?. . .

The problem is even if we are to believe that it is the scientific view, how does it equate to the atheistic position?. . .Scientific position= atheist position, when ?. . .

lanrexlan: The shortest Surah(Chapter) in the Quran is Surah Kawther.Bring the like of Surah Kawther from the bible or the vedas.If the Quran and the bible agree on some points don't mean that's a Surah.
Are the arab pagans the only people living at arabia at that time? Maybe you will also tell me this challenge is for the arab pagans too.
Surah Al-Isra 17:88- And if Jinns and Mankind were together to produce the like of this Quran,they could not produce the like thereof,even if they helped one another.

What the hell are you talking about?. . .What is a surah?. .Is a surah not the same as a chapter?. . .I can bring multiple chapters in the bible that are at par with that in the Koran. . .What do you mean that if the bible and Koran agree on the same point doesn't mean its a surah?. . What are you saying?. . .The challenge was meant for the ancient pagan arabs. . .The bible has so many chapters that are at part with the Koran, many chapters in the Koran do not even make any sense at all. . .Even academics that have looked into it have stated so. . .Nöldeke, Theodor "The Qur'an," Sketches from Eastern History. Trans. J.S. Black. London: Adam and Charles Black, 1892.states that. .

"On the whole, while many parts of the Qur'an undoubtedly have considerable rhetorical power, even over an unbelieving reader, the book, aesthetically considered, is by no means a first-rate performance. ...let us look at some of the more extended narratives. It has already been noticed how vehement and abrupt they are where they ought to be characterized by epic repose. Indispensable links, both in expression and in the sequence of events, are often omitted, so that to understand these histories is sometimes far easier for us than for those who learned them first, because we know most of them from better sources. Along with this, there is a great deal of superfluous verbiage; and nowhere do we find a steady advance in the narration. Contrast, in these respects, "the most beautiful tale," the history of Joseph (xii.), and its glaring improprieties, with the story in Genesis, so admirably executed in spite of some slight discrepancies. Similar faults are found in the non-narrative portions of the Qur'an. The connection of ideas is extremely loose, and even the syntax betrays great awkwardness. Anancloutha are of frequent occurrence, and cannot be explained as conscious literary devices. Many sentences begin with a "when" or "on the day when," which seem to hover in the air, so that the commentators are driven to supply a "think of this" or some ellipsis. Again, there is no great literary skill evinced in the frequent and needless harping on the same words and phrases; in xviii., for example, "till that" (hatta idha) occurs no fewer than eight times. Muhammad, in short, is not in any sense a master of style."


We do not have material in the Qur'an to compose a biography of Muhammad because the book is a disjointed discourse, a pastiche [imitation, parody] of divine monologues that can be assembled into a homily [lecture, sermon] or perhaps a catechism [snippets of dogma] but that reveals little or nothing about the life of Muhammad and his contemporaries.... The Qur'an give us no assurance that its words and sentiments are likely to be authentic in the light of the context they were delivered and in the manner of their transmission. There are no clues as to when or where or why these particular words were being uttered.... The Qur'an is of no use whatsoever as an independent source for reconstructing the life of Muhammad. The Qur'an is not terribly useful even for reconstructing the Meccan milieu much less the life of the man who uttered its words; it is a text without context.

Source: Jay Smith, "Is the Qur'an the Word of God?", 1995

How many people were killed when those fake Qurans were published? How many have been killed when those thousand books were published?
Ali Sina is an ex-muslim,now an atheist.Why is he still living?
Mirza Ghalib,
Mumin Salih are both ex-muslims,why are they alive?

One of the earliest manuscripts is in Istanbul,Turkey.You can visit and have a look,don't you know how the arabs lived their early life? The names of their gods and how they worshipped them? Don't you know all these? Aren't there non-muslims studying Islamic history in the University of Madinah,Munawarrah?

Gerard Puin is one of the foremost forensic scientists on the subject of the Koran. In an 1999 Atlantic Monthly article, he said:

My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur'an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not-there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on. -GP

These are some of the positions of the non muslim scholars that have learned classical arabic and studied the koran in its original language and i completely agree with most of them. . .The koran in many places is completely disjointed and does not make any sense. . .It makes sense in some parts but on many parts its just disjointed verbiage that makes no sense at all. . .I have read the english translation about 3 times. . .It has a lot of disjointed verbiage in it. . .The claim that a surah should be brought that is at par with the koran is just ridiculous since a lot of the koran is just nonsense disjointed talk. . .

How many people were killed when those fake Qurans were published? How many have been killed when those thousand books were published?

Which fake koran are you talking about?. . .People are killed everyday in muslim lands for blasphemy or desecration of the koran, don't you follow the news?. . .Or are you trying to claim ignorance?. . .How many people lost their lives when some pastor said he was going to burn the koran for example?. . .What are you taslking about publishing of fake korans?. . .Where and when did that happen?. .

Ali Sina is an ex-muslim,now an atheist.Why is he still living?
Mirza Ghalib,
Mumin Salih are both ex-muslims,why are they alive?

Are they still living in muslim lands?. . .It is common knowledge that all those that leave islam are to be killed. . .

Fatwa to kill apostates sparks fierce controversy in Morocco

RABAT - A fatwa published this week by Morocco's Higher Council of Religious Scholars (CSO) calling for the death penalty for Muslims who renounce their faith has sparked fierce controversy in the country.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=58230

An atheist was jailed in indonesia for saying that god does not exist on facebook. . .

Man jailed in Indonesia for atheist Facebook posts
Human rights group say religious intolerance on the rise in the populous Muslim country

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-jailed-indonesia-atheist-facebook-posts-article-1.1096779#ixzz2cF00HG5j

An atheist can NEVER leave islam and criticize it constatatly in muslim lands. . .He WILL be killed that is a FACT. . .You can never leave islam, remain in muslims land and constantly criticize it, you must be killed. That is the FACT. . .Christians leave christianity and openly and constatnly criticize it in the west. . .The even engage christians in public debates all the time. . .Muslsims do not even engage non muslims in open debate on topcis that relate to the origins of the koran. . .

One of the earliest manuscripts is in Istanbul,Turkey.You can visit and have a look,don't you know how the arabs lived their early life? The names of their gods and how they worshipped them? Don't you know all these? Aren't there non-muslims studying Islamic history in the University of Madinah,Munawarrah?

They are NOT allowed to study it openly and challenge it. . .I said muslims lands have not been dug and combs the way Israel has been combed by various archaeologist, muslims will not even allow you to teach anything about Koranic history in their universities if you do not believe in the Koran. there are many atheist and deist that teach new testatment history and head department of religion in many universities in the west. . .The koran has NEVER undergone the academic scrutiny the bible has undergone. . .No muslims will allow a person that does not believe in the divine origins of the koran to even go close to their university and put forth his theory academically. . .Any one that tries it will be killed. . .Abul Kasem a former islamic scholar had is house burnt in Yemen for saying that the Koran had no divine origin. . .He stated that the prophet Mohammed was once a pagan and sacrificed to pagan gods, something that was quoted in one of the hadiths and for that he was attacked, he had to run to the west to seek refuge. . .

Can you us give the number of books that have been written against the bible?

They are numerous. . .My point is academic scrutiny. . .Muslims will never allow that to be done to their koran. . .They will always kill and burn than allow that to happen. . .Muslims believe the koran to be the greatest miracle on earth. . .Going to debate them, excavate their lands to find out its true origin or putting forth theories and critical scholarship as to how its origins came about will never be tolerated. . .Muslims as i stated to not even engage people academically in the public debates about the origin of the koran in most cases the way christians do. . .Any ex muslims living in muslim land that openly criticizes the traditional islamic narrative about the origin of the koran will be killed that is a fact. . .You can try it yourself. . .Go to saudi Arabia, claim you are an ex muslim and try to publicly criticize or challenge the traditional story of the muslims with regards to the origin of the koran and see if ytou will last long. . .

lanrexlan: Who told you this?
Allah says in Surah Al-Baqarah 2:23-24-

And if you are doubt concerning that which We have sent down[Quran] to our slave,then bring a Surah of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.But if you do it not and surely you can never do it,then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stones prepared for the disbelievers.

What is this nonsense?. . .What surah. . .many muslims have been taking this verse out of context. . .This was was a challenged to the pagan arabs o bring a book from their traditional pagan religions that can be compared to the koran, to claim it is a challenge to all religions is just ridiculous and funny because many oother religions have books that are at par with the Koran, examples are the bible and the verdes. . .

Muslims don't need to defend the Quran with his life.Allah says in Surah Al-Hijr 15:9- Verily,We(Allah) have sent down the Quran and We will surely guard it..
This has been proving Since more than 1400 years ago,many tried to alter the Quran,published many fake Qurans but they failed woefully.This is a promise from Allah and Allah never fails in his promise.
Stop displaying your ignorance here.The time Magazine has reported that more than 60,000(Sixty thousand) Books have been written over 50years to discret Islam and the Quran! Average of 1,200 books per year.So,which critical scrutiny are you looking for again?
Many articles have been written online to discret the Quran.

Have you heard of Ali Sina who owns faithfreedom.com? Do you know how many anti-islamic websites available today? Do you know how many articles have been written against the Quran? Which scrutiny are you looking for again? Read this again,this is another article written just of recent against the authenticity of the Quran.

www.faithfreedom.org/the-quran-was-written-by-aliens-ii/

If muslims do not need to defend the koran then why do muslims go about killing people when ever the koran has been defiled?. . .Why do muslims go about killing those that openly question the authorship of the Koran in their lands?. . .I have given you names of ex muslim scholars that were either killed or attacked in muslim lands because they questions, challenged and presented their own theory of how the koran came about. .

When I talk of scrutiny and critical scholarship I mean academic scrutiny. . .By academic scholarship and scrutiny I mean the Koran should be open to every body, by that i mean, academics from all over the world that are interested in digging into the history should be allowed access to the holy land, earliert manusxcripts should be allowed to be examined, archological digs etc, so that other things could be dug and found out about the people that lived their, their mode of life and other stuffs that have been buried in the ground etc, all these things will open up and show people how the ancient arabs lived their lives, the gods they worshiped etc. . . .But that is not possible because the muslim holy lands are prohibited to non muslims. No non muslims will be allowed to enter the muslim holy lands. . .The bible has been opened to such, any body can visit Israel and have a look. . .You can visit the vatican and have a look at the ancient manuscripts etc. . .Scholars have dug and found so many thing about the bible. . .You can not even try that with the Kofran, all you can do is build your own theory from what the muslims have presented. . .

Allah says in Surah At-Taubah 9:32- They want to extinguish Allah's light[Islam] with their mouths,but Allah will not allow except that His light should be perfected even though the disbelievers hate it..
No matter the hatred for Islam and the scrutiny the Quran has gone and still going through,Allah will perfect his religion and guard his Book.....Peace

I repeat.. . .The koran has NEVER been opened to academic scrutiny the way the bible has, muslims will never allow that to happen. . .