₦airaland Forum

Mintayo: which christainity r u talking abt@ d bolded,d one that came before islam or d one dt mohammed copied from.
I think mazaje has given u a good answer!
What u r doing is not new,yet Christainity is still standing...
If only islam can accommodate such criticism,debate,i am sure d foundation of islam wld v been exposed more than it is today...
I will leave u with ur thought,that is if u have any at all!

According to Islam, questioning the Allah's absolute authorship of the Koran is a serious blasphemy. A Muslim may face death sentence simply for nurturing an atom of doubt on Koran authenticity. The Koran is above all. Nothing in the creation of Allah is holier than the Koran. So muslims will use their life and blood to defend this narrative and tradition. . .The koran has NEVER been scrutinized academically like the bible so i wonder why tbaba is even trying to bring up the issue of biblical scholarship, as if the same can be said of the koran. . .Before the bible was opened for critical studies and scrutiny, every body just accepted the position and tradition of the church. . .Now we know so many things about the bible that we wouldn't have known if it wasn't opened for academic scrutiny. . .Muslims should open the koran up and allow it under go the same academic scrutiny and critical studies and lets see. . .Until then muslims have no right to say or talk about scholarship or the bible, since the koran has not undergone the kind of scrutiny and critical scholarship the bible went through. . .

Edit.

tbaba1234: My Christian brethen, I have not shared knowledge that is not known by christian scholarship. It is just not known by the average Christian.

The problem is that the Koran has NEVER been reviewed and criticized academically like the bible. Any body that tries to criticize it is killed or threatened with death. The few muslim scholars that left Islam and tried to criticize the authorship of the Koran where killed or attacked. Example is Turan Dursun a Turkish islamic scholar and ex-mufti who was murdered in 1990 for questioning the authorship of the Koran and how it came about. He tried to propose how he felt the koran came about and was warned by islamist to stop, he refused and was killed. Iban Warraq another critic of the traditional islamic narrative of how the koran came about does not even want to reveal his identity for fear of being killed by muslim fanatics. Former muslim scholar like Abul Kasem have been attacked for challenging the traditional islamic narrative on the authorship of the Koran. . .Muslims will never allow the Koran to be criticized academically like the bible. . .

If the Koran was open to critical evaluation as the bible is, the idea of an infallible Koran would not even be an issue. But muslims will not allow that, any body that tries it will be killed or attacked. So critics just allow muslims to have a field day and enjoy propagating their biased stories uncontested. . .Christians used to be like that until democracy was fully embraced and it changed everything. . .

[quote author=Mai-suya]^
With all due respect, the argument presented here by tbaba r clear, concise and schorlarly laid out (with references). I have read ur posts in the past and they also are researched. But please let the christains debunk tbaba's assertion and establish with superior proof the validity of one of the most important dogma of their creed - crucifixion. Otherwise you can debunk them with reason or research and let's not do the 'Islam this Islam that' argument cycle when christainity is cornered. I am sure if there is a thread discussing anything Islam MATUREDLY (without insults) you will find us most willing to discuss fact for fact, evidence for evidence.

But for now let's stay on point.[/quote]Agreed, the christians responding to this topic obviously do not have good historical knowledge of the bible and the gospels as such they are not responding well. . .Only one person(m.k.o 2005) has tried to respond well so far. . .I was shocked by some of the response here. . .My point is the same could be said of the koran. . .But then let me allow the christians to defend their faith and not derail. . .

Here is the problem. . .Tbaba goes about bringing stories from discredited sources like the gospel of Barnabas that says Jesus was not crucified. I am not a christian but tbaba is just playing the normal games muslims play. . .The founders of Islam wanted to create a new religion, they took the already established religion of the Jews and the christians, re-wrote it and claimed it is the final revelation from their own god. . .

The gospels and the bible have their own problems but so does the koran and th hadith. . .Everything that we know about the prophet Mohammed we know ONLY from his very biased followers who wanted to promote him and help him propagate his new religion. . .The hadith as we know them today came over 200 years after the death of Mohammed for example. . .islam is agains christianty as such it is expected that it goes around looking for books that tear into or disagree with the christian message since it wants to establish itself using some of the christian stories. . . . .

vedaxcool: F00028 you should know by now you are dealing with a simpleton!!!

Yeah the simpleton that wrote the nonsense in the Koran. . .The simpleton that wrote in the Koran that the embryo is a a cloth of blood when it is never a cloth of blood, or that bones are formed and later covered with flesh. . .Allah is truly a simpleton. . .

F00028: whats the use? with you it'll just be another exercise in futility

You still went ahead to bring the work of Dr Moore who just lied because he was paid by the royal family to support the nonsense written inside the Koran. . .Some thing he later denied himself. . .The only thing that is stopping you is because there is nothing to support you , else you would have posted it here. . .The koran is simply wrong. . Bones does not come before flesh. . .

it's a crying shame, vedaxcool

Cryig shame that you keep posting the writing of people that have been debunked already and have been shown to be liars, you started with Hamza and I showed you a video of how Hamza himself had to change what he said when challenged. . .Now its Dr Moore a person that clearly denied his involvement with Koranic embryology and said its nothing different from he works of Aristotle and the Ayer-veda. . .Nice try. .But you just keep failing. .

F00028: and btw Dr. Keith L. Moore PhD, DSc, FIAC, FRSM, FAAA is a professor emeritus in
the division of anatomy , in the Faculty of
Surgery, at the University of Toronto , Ontario, Canada. Moore is associate dean for Basic Medical Sciences in the university's Faculty of Medicine , and was Chair of Anatomy from 1976 to 1984. He is a founding member of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists (AACA)...

Let us get this straight. . .Muslims have been using Dr. Keith L. Moore to lie over and over again. . .Here are the facts. . .Dr Moore does NOT agree with the Koran in any way. . .Dr. Moore is notable as the only embryologist directly quoted by Islamic sources in an attempt to prove embryology as described in the Qur'an is scientifically correct. . .

Dr. Moore is notable as the only embryologist directly quoted by Islamic sources in an attempt to prove embryology as described in the Qur'an is scientifically correct. In the 1980s he accepted an invitation by the Embryology Committee of King Abdulaziz University to produce a special 3rd edition of his most successful book "The Developing Human" specifically for use by Muslim students in Islamic Universities. He was financially patronized by the Saudi royal family for the use of his name, and for no real additional work.
The textbook he delivered to the Saudi Universities that commissioned the work is titled, "The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology with Islamic Additions."[4] The base textbook was work that Moore had completed years before. He did nothing new for this new edition. The “Islamic additions” are actually the work of an Abdul Majeed al-Zindani, so it alternates chapters of standard science with Zindani's "Islamic additions".


The result of Moore's and Zindani's collaboration is not an academic book and subsequent editions omit and contradict the "Islamic additions". Reverting back to his previous description, they basically admit that the embryology in the Qur'an is a repetition of Greek and Indian medicine[7]
For example, in 1986 he wrote that "The drop or nutfa [in Surah 23:13] has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest","[8] but in the 8th edition of The Developing Human (published 2007), he writes that "Growth of science was slow during the medieval period... human beings [according to the Qur'an] are produced from a mixture of secretions from the male and female. Several references are made to the creation of a human being from a nutfa (small drop). It also states that the resulting organism settles in the womb like a seed, 6 days after its beginning."[9]
This shows that Moore's previous statements on embryology in the Qur'an were not based on science, but merely the result of patronage by the Saudi royal family.
J. Needham, a well known authority on the history of embryology and a reference cited in Keith Moore's books, has also dismissed embryology in the Qur'an as merely "a seventh-century echo of Aristotle and the Ayer-veda."[10]


Moore's current CV does not reflect any involvement with Islam, the Qur'an or Islamic embryology. It also omits mentioning the 3rd edition of The Developing Human and its connections to Islamic terrorists. Nor does he mention his lecture in Saudi Arabia or any of his Islam-related activities in Muslim-majority countries.
In 2002, Moore declined to be interviewed by the Wall Street Journal on the subject of his work on Islam, stating that "it's been ten or eleven years since I was involved in the Qur'an."[11]

Even Dr Moore himself has denied his involvement with the Koran. . .

The co writer of his book on Islamic embryology is an alleged terrorist. .

The co-writer of Moore's book is a leading militant Islamist named Abdul Majeed al-Zindani. He is the founder and head of the Iman University in Yemen, head of the Yemeni Muslim Brotherhood political movement and founder of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah (one of the organizations that spearheaded Bucailleism), based in Saudi Arabia.[5]
Zindani served as a contact for Ansar al-Islam (Al), a Kurdish-based terrorist organization linked to al-Qaeda, has links to John Walker Lindh and Anwar al-Awlaki, and in 2004 the US Treasury Department published a press release stating that the United States had by executive order designated Zindani as a "Specially Designated Global Terrorist".[6]
Interestingly, the Acknowledgments for the book recognize a number of “distinguished scholars” who supported the book with time or money. And number 6 on the list is Saifullah Shaykh Osama bin Laden (Zindani had a long history of working with bin Laden, notably serving as one of his spiritual leaders).

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dr._Keith_Moore_and_the_Islamic_Additions


I told you to produce scientist that substantiate the Koran. . .STOP going to Islamic apologist sites and posting nonsense. . .Even Dr Moore himself simply sates that the Koran only echos the works of Aristotle and the Ayer-veda. . .There is nothing in the what is written in the Koran that comes close to modern day embryology. . .

italo: My friend, even this link you posted is clearly corroborating my position that a myth is not necessarily false yet you are bent on forcing it to agree with you.

Re-read the five definitions and see that the one that clearly relates to the creation story is number 1.

Tell me how that means myths are always false.

Instead it clearly provides that it may be true or false.

Do you agree with this dictionary or do you have another one that can prove me wrong?

Myth means something is true, eh?. . .I hear you. . .

italo: From www.dictionary.com

myth

- noun 1. legendary story, person, etc. 2. false popular belief

leg·end

- noun 1. story handed down by tradition 2. person

Going by dictionary.com a myth is not necessarily false.

Do you have another dictionary?

Or do you want to force dictionary.com to say what you want it to say?

Didn't you see the other definitions there?. . .

1.
a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2.
stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
3.
any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
4.
an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
5.
an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth?s=t


Besides the one you quoted clearly says false popular belief. . .Myth is never true, if you have any definition of a myth that says it is true pls bring it. . .

[quote author=tpia@]Op

If you are neither then it doesnt concern you.

And do not foam at the mouth when responding to my post.[/quote][quote author=tpia@]Op

If you are neither then it doesnt concern you.

And do not foam at the mouth when responding to my post.[/quote]I have told you to stop stalking me. . .Wetin?.

striktlymi: Hey boss,

Your assessment is very flawed...obviously, you are looking at it from the 'balcony'.

Yes boss,

Na for stadium I dey watch am ohh. . .

italo: From which dictionary...the mazaje dictionary?

Dictionary.com. . .

ikeugbo: The line of thought is that there is a GOD, how you wish to follow HIM is as a result of how ro where you were brought up or the family in which you were born! Ut to say there isn't is something strange to accept because, the theories propounded by darwin and others are believed as true thereby making them gods by those who believe them. If you believe Darwin's theory of evolution and follow it you are no different from him that is hindu and follows the rules laid down or Buddhist or muslim and christians which I am. GOD is real and exist. Check youtube and see an argument by scientists on BBC about darwin's theory which they disputed as false because of the simple orderliness of the birds feathers which they said can only be done by someone whose wisdom is far above man's if we don't understand or comprehend then we say there is no GOD. Who created the earth is to be judged by the records of all books and which one predicts the present world and all that happens in it. I am not only a christian by birth but by soul searching and facts as the proofs are there to see. Atheism should give me one reason not to believe as even darwin's theory failed if not apes would have become men constantly and not stop or evolution should stop because creation hasn't stopped who tell me the moon to stay till night or who holds the stars or who keeps the sun from falling on earth or who can tell of tomorrow yet some can tell and you see it happening that our minds can't fathom should make us to dispute what we can't see. We would keep searching for we are not meant to be satisfied with what we see on earth

Pls what are you saying?. . .

[quote author=Uyi Iredia]I hope you know monotheism sprang from monotheism and that even some major polytheist religions believed in an all-encompassing deity. The Ifa religion is the best example I know of this. Your thinking is bent because it ignores the concept MOST religionists share of God as the Creator. Heck ! Even Jainists and Buddhists believe in God (never mind the religions didn't originally addressed the issue).[/quote

God concepts are not all the same, all god concepts remain man made simple. . .Creator means nothing because it remains a human idea and conception. . .

I have noticed that muslims are far better adherents of their religions than christians. Why is that so?. . .Once something is written in the Koran muslims follow it to the end, but when some thing is written in the bible christians just push it aside and always look for excuses not to obey it. . .

When the child marriage brouhaha came up, muslims all came out and supported the Koran and the hadiths. . .The prophet married a 9 years old child, to them he is the best human being that has ever lived, they support him and in very clear terms stated that they are not against early marriage if certain conditions are fulfilled or meet . . .

The bible for example is against gay marriage but christians will go round it and say things like who are they do judge the gays, god likes gays but dislike what they do(When the bible in some places has god sayig that gays should be killed). . .The bible in very clear terms is against women teaching in the church, but christians will dance around it, disobey it and find excuses. . .They have women teaching in churches when the bible says they should not. . .If Koran says women should not teach, muslims will abide by it, bible says so many things yet christians go against it. . .Why is that so?. . .

italo: Mazaje, stop trying too hard. The Genesis account is a mythological account. It happened and is true...The Cardinal stated it...Why are you fighting yourself...

...instead of looking up the meaning of "myth"

Myth means

1.any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
2.an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
3.an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.

How does the genesis account resemble reality?. . .Myths are fictitious. . .genesis account is a myth. .Stop fighting yourself. . .

Italo stop trying to hard. . .The genesis account is a myth. . It never happened and it is not true. . .A cardinal that knows better than you has stated it. . .Why are you still fighting yourself?. . .

Uyi Iredia: This line of thinking is bent. Most rrligions share the sane CORE conception of God as the Creator of the material universe.

Hope you know that there are monotheist and polytheist. . .The Hindus have pantheon of gods for example. . .How is my thinking bent?. . .Even the monotheist have very different concept of god. . .Does the op believe in allah?. . .I know he doesn't but can he show that Yahweh created the universe and not Allah?. . .

F00028: easy there! you seem to be losing it.


if you still dont get it I can't help you.

How can you help me when you havent helped yourself?. . .

you are clearly out of your depth.

and your wild accusations only mask your deficiencies in your imagination.
but hey, if it makes you feel better...

What does Alaqah mean if not cloth of blood?. . Tell me, what does Alaqah mean in Arabic?. . .You just said the islamic scholars interpreted it wrongly but refused to tell us what it means, maybe you know Arabic more than the islamic scholars that say it means cloth of blood. Tell us what it means because Islamic scholars that translated the word into English in all English transalatyion of the Koran all say it means cloth of blood. Unfortunately the embryo is never a cloth of blood at any time. . .Koran is wrong simple. . .

-Carl Sagan, Parade magazine, April 22, 1990. And the book Billions & Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium, Ballantine Books, New York:

“It [the embryo] sucks blood from capillaries. It bathes itself in maternal blood, from which it extracts oxygen and nutrients. It establishes itself as a kind of parasite on the walls of the
uterus…

“By the third week, around the time of the first missed menstrual period, the forming embryo is about 2 millimeters long and is
developing various body parts. Only at this stage does it begin to be dependent on a rudimentary placenta. It looks a little like a
segmented worm.”




pix1: A scanning electron microscope of the embryo (dorsal view). About 25 days.
http://php.med.unsw.edu.au

pix2: Left, shows an embryo of about 22 days
Right, A leech’s (rear) sucker
http://static.scanpix.se/
lennart_nilsson_video/video22.html
http://www.sciencephoto.com/
media/366747/enlarge

You are clearly dishonest again. . .The embryo in full with its yolk sac does not resemble a leech. . .Its dorsal view looks like a ;leech but its complete view does not. . .

Here is an image for comparison. . .

https://www.answering-christianity.com/g_embryo_leech.jpg


I noticed that you do not want to touch the last part, the Koran claims that embryo develops bones that is later covered in flesh but that is terribly wrong because at not point does the embryo develop bones that is later covered with flesh. . . Bones and cartilages develop later when the embryo is already flesh. So Koran is wrong. . .You prefer to go around looking for islamic website that dwell on leech but you refuse to touch the main things. . .

Let me break it down for you. . .God is a man made idea that is why every society and culture creates its own god and try to sell it unto others. . .You said god is real, eh. . Which of the gods?. .. Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, Panku, Zeus, Adamedia, Ra, Amun, etc. . .Which of them created the universe and where is the evidence?. . .

Pastor Kun will be ok i think. . .

Seun, I can see that you are also viewing the thread. . .We don't want no born again christian, we just want someone that will be fair. . .

[quote author=tpia@],in your case, one day monkey go go market im no go return.

You are too fond of jumping on the bandwagon, very agbero, no offence.

Be careful not to do it one time too many, you tend to step on some very big toes, not sure your "connections" can balance out your misteps.[/quote]The old witch has spoken and its a useless threat as usual. . .

[quote author=tpia@]There's nothing understandable about his "hatred" and besides why are you apologizing for a story that you cant verify?[/quote]Stop stalking people pls. . .

We need a mod that will try to be as neutral as manmustwac. . .I recommend striktlymi and Pastor Kun. . .I think they will be neutral. . .

frosbel: Guys , I think you are taking this too far , one thing is to protest and the other is to start being silly and personal.

Let us be like him who we say we represent for those who are Christians, mentioning pig meat etc is malicious instigation to hatred, STOP and THINK.

Thanks.

The day muslims on nairaland create a topic denoucing any muslims that threatens any body's life here, that day people will stop talking about pork and other things. . . Until then its fair game when their foolly is being treated for what it is. . .

Paschal007: [img]http://underthehill.files./2010/02/coexist.png[/img]

Islam. . . .The religion of Pisssssssssssssssssssssssssss. . . . . .

Pastor Kun
Muskeeto

lanrexlan: Take it easy bro,don't give yourself high blood pressure.Allah gives respite to the disbelievers.
Maclatunji is the new mod and there's nothing you can do about it.After all the names he was called and hatred for him,his status was elevated .Keep the hatred coming,Maclatunji will keep waxing.

Allah gives respite to disbelievers yet his slaves are all over the place killing people on his behalf, eh?. . .