₦airaland Forum

justaqad: read the whole Quran.not cherrypicking chapters that suits you.

I've actually read some surahs chosen randomly on quran.com, in addition to reading the ones that suit my argument.

Have you read Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion? The whole thing?

You are trying to obfuscate the issue by saying that we have to read/watch everything you request before criticising. That is simply not going to happen. Just as if I say that no one can criticise an atheist position without first having read all of the works of Christopher Hitchens and Dawkins.

Remember that Muslims claim that the Quran is the direct word of god. Therefore, all we have to do is find a single mistake in the Quran, just one, and we can throw the whole thing out, correct?

justaqad: no need to be,its inbuilt we are bound to make mistakes,(typos)
but you cant fault God.

It is true that you cannot fault something for which there is no proof (god).

inspiredbyGOD:.:
God decides to destroy all of mankind and everything on earth except for the fishes in the sea (water is their habitat so i don't think that a flood would have killed them). Obviously mankind became wicked because of the angels that couldn't control their lust. The angels slept with any woman they choose and gave birth to Nephilims (seems like they were very powerful men). God sees that everybody on earth was evil and was always thinking of doing evil (seems like man wasn't a perfect creation afterall) save for Noah who was righteous.

Yahweh is quite the childish little tyrant isn't he? Throws a temper tantrum and commits genocide after seeing that he made a colossal mistake the first time around. How can 'god' get angry? Is that not a sign of weakness and human fallibility?

Logicboy03: I have noticed that you havent made any proper argument yourself for your religion. You just repeat what you are told and what you see in the videos .

Justaqad, how are you not a slave.

I was going to say the same thing. Linking videos to Nouman Ali Khan or Zakir Naik (another popular 'dawagandist'), is not really showing us that he himself has the capacity to argue his own point of view.

justaqad: lol...
have you read the Quran?
Quran is not just Poetry.....

Yes, I've read quite a bit of it, in pieces, not all at once, from the more poetic surahs to the ones that focus more on rules and regulations to the ones that talk about Jews and Christians and kaffirs. Really, there is absolutely nothing that moves me in the Quran. There is some good advice and some things that I object to. I should add that the Bible also does nothing for me.

justaqad: considering the time revealed and the contents found therein make me wonder.. i am not debating about the compilation method of the Quran,i am asking you to disprove the incredible formation and contents of the quran.
the quran is revealed in Oral form not written.it is beyond human to compile such great work.mind you its the most difficult form of speech.(oral)

There is been some amazing poetry and literature produced by humans which exceeds that of the Quran. In my opinion.

justaqad: There are different kinds of Arabic which he outlined the three most important.Quran was revealed in Ancient Arabic.it would be wrong to judge Ancient Arabic by Classic Arabic.if you are truly sincere and want to disprove the authenticity of the Quran,there are institutions where you can study Ancient Arabic.Ali nouman khan was not born 1500 years ago.he dedicated his time to study ancient Arabic.


the whole Quran was revealed to Muhammad.most of which was memorized by majority of muslims,there were also written copy of the quran though not in the organized format as it is today.so whats your claim?

The problem is that Khan claims that ancient Arabic is somehow overwhelmingly complex, but does not say why it is important. Classical Latin is also extremely complex, which is why western scientists preferred to use Latin as their primary language of expression up until 400 years ago. But so what. And ultimately it is a matter of opinion as to the quality of poetry. In English, the Quran is not beautiful. It is repetitive, boring, and menacing.

The problem of the Quran being 'revealed' to Muhammad is that the history of the time period was not written down until 150 years after Mo's death. This is not reliable history. Storytellers are human beings and they are quite capable of changing, adding, or subtracting from what really happened. This is hardly an effective method for a god to use to get people to believe him, especially skeptics. Using a strict historiographical approach, this is completely unreliable history. In addition there are no surviving alternate viewpoints of Muhammad, i.e. people who did not believe him. We don't know what they might have had to say.

In terms of temporal power, Cyrus, the founder of the Persian Empire would be the most powerful person mentioned in the Bible. In addition to building the largest empire in the world, he is referred to in the Bible as a "messiah" for freeing the Jews from Babylonian captivity, hence, he is considered a man of god as well.

Billyonaire: Logicboy03, I will advise you desist from being too outlandish in your atheist belief system

Obvious irony aside, what is outlandish about an atheist belief system that is not surpassed by beliefs in Jewish zombies, flying horses and other such absurdities found in religion that are a part of many people's lives?

Logicboy03: nice one but where are the soul apologists?

Oh all those beliefs are the same pig just with different lipstick

wiegraf: I googled moby joystick at first, got a lot of nairaland results, and was cursing at google thinking they had personalized my searches, before the 'aha' struck me. I really should pay more attention at times.

Is this it?
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

Yes that's it! All kinds of predictions in there, you just have to wait until the event happens before you can know what to look for in the book...which uh kind of defeats the whole purpose, unless it is just to amaze gullible people (which is a goal of religions).

wiegraf:

I have no idea where to find it, but somebody took the American novel "Moby D*ck" and found a number of 'amazing' coincidences and predictions in it, just by interpreting things in a particular way, just to show that any book of any size can be 'miraculous'. Wish I knew where that article was....

By the way this can be really silly the way the website changes certain words automatically. "Moby D*ck" is not obscene, it's the title of a novel. Can you even write Dick Chaney, the former VP of the US?? lol guess not!

Dipwater: Life is a mystery ,nobody knows it all.we learn everyday ,when u grasp some thing new u'll upgrade.
One big problem I have with the xtians is that they claim to be the only true religion and the only way to their god and if u fail to accept him as ur god u will be thrown into a lake of fire . Imagine!!

There is no such thing as a soul or spirit .all those things are fantastic lies.with all the spirits the xtians claim to posses and naija is still backward .most of the cars we drive here come from japan , a cuntry made up of 60 percent atheist. Very funny indeed.

We live once and die once ,no coming back and to going to imaginary heaven or hell .the bible is just an interesting story book. People shuldnt take the stories too serious .the stories are like cartoons ,we watch for fun chikena!

The only way we can break the shackles of poverty,excessive greed and illiteracy is by dumping organised religion bcuz it has made us lazy and stupid ,even if we decide to be foolish ,why can't we adopt our own traditional religion instead of importing a foreign god into our lifes .

Every gaddam thing in this cuntry is imported. That is why we cannot stop looking up to them like our superiors. I was caught up in an argument today with one yung man ,an engineer that came out of FUTO with 2.1, very intelligent yungman I must say, but messed up logically .when we approached a construction site that sprawled into a major road and caused heavy traffic .on spotting the white men on the site he said and I quote "kai na oyibo people even dey work here sef ,I been think say na naija contractors because oyibo people no dey do any how work " check it out

Oh it's just God testing his faithful believers, didn't you know that? Africans should accept being at the bottom of the Human Development Index and actually be happy with the current situation! Let's all praise Jesus/Allah/Olodumare!!!

justaqad: Can you kindly outline the fallacies?
Looking forward to that...

He says that classical Arabic is complicated because ancient Arabic poets say it is, and anyone who is not a classical Arabic scholar should not question that. Since none of us are classical Arabic scholars, we are in no position to be able to challenge that. fallacy = Appeal to authority

He says that the truth of the Quran is proven just by the numbers of non-Arabs who converted. fallacy = appeal to popularity

He starts with an assumption that the Quran was 'revealed' in its complete form by Muhammad....there is no evidence of this since the first Quran was not written down until years after his death. Fallacy = begging the question

Logicboy03: Good good!

Well, I am not into spirituality but I prefer people to be spiritual more than religious. Spiritual people think deeply

I also agree. I am also not spiritual, but if someone says that they believe in some vague kind of prime mover (i.e. Spinoza's god or panantheism), I never argue with them. It's when god is portrayed as anthropomorphic (i.e. the Abrahamic god) that I become grouchy.

Omexonomy: How did this become the first tread in this section.

I was quite pleasantly surprised to see this. It's about time. I wouldn't go quite as far to say it's a mental disorder but rather a continuation of childhood fantasy. And there is a Bible verse which describes this perfectly:

"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." 1 Corinthians 13:11

justaqad: you think so?
i think this link might give you a rethink

peace

I watched 20 minutes of the video. I stopped after he committed his third logical fallacy (begging the question, appeal to authority, and appeal to popularity). No need to watch the rest, you don't have to eat the whole apple to know it's rotten.

justaqad: its a fact i cant make God appear to you or other Atheist,but its also a fact that the (bible and Quran) contains works that are beyond human composition,even atheist attest to this facts.

which atheists please? I see nothing in the Bible or Quran which would make me think it is anything but a book composed by men whose knowledge was limited by the time and place in which they lived.

tola9ja: prophet issa *jesus*came after moses to preach to d isrealite d 1nes d unique of Almighty ALLAH after him d last prophet Arrive which is prophet muhammed *p.b.u.h* he also preach to world not d isrealite or egyptian but d world at large in 1 word. d last prophet was send to d world al d remaining prophet was sent to there society only.
the word Allah means d creator of d world, in arabic it is Allah in english it is god in,Allah is d creator of moses an is magic stick dat divider d read sea. The bible is edited by human being and hav many version but d quran is only 1 version and cannot be edited if u go to any country in world u wil see only 1 quranic version and they are all d same that proof the uniquenes of Almighty ALLAH. god of egyptian and god of there fore father means god of all creature in the plannet
HOPE YOU COMPREHEND IT

But which Quran transmission is the "one" version? Warsh, Qalun, al-Duri, Hafs? There is like at least 7 versions of the Quran...

davidylan: Logic and reason are the basis of so many things beside science. That does not mean that being logical is equivalent to being a scientist. Its just a senseless way of reasoning. The yam seller logically prices his goods to include cost of production and profits... does that make him a scientist too? Do you think the pepper seller in the market lacks a reasoning behind what she charges for a mound of tatase? Does that now make her a scientist?

This nonsensical attitude that every atheist is now all of a sudden some super duper scientist because he decides to disbelief the bible is mind-boggling. Like i said earlier... there is a lot more to being a scientist than merely thinking "logically"... any idiot can be logical... any fool can reason... it hasnt turned them into a form of Einstein overnight.

Secondly, no one really cares that you apologize for what you do... i'm only interested in pointing out that when next you try to accuse the christian of being an evangelist that you realize that you do exactly the same thing.

Nowhere did I claim to be a scientist nor that logic = science, only that it is the basis of science. Of course logic is applied in other facets if life!

And, no, any idiot or fool cannot necessarily be logical or reasonable. that's the very essence of being a fool.

And, I have never 'accused' Christians of evangelizing. That is entirely their right. Maybe other atheists have done so, not me.

davidylan: You are not a scientist... cut the phony crap. You wouldnt know science even if it hit you squarely in the face. The idea that somehow questioning issues is automatically scientific in nature is false.

Secondly... evangelism is "encouraging people to see your point of view as the right one"... which is what you are doing no matter how much you twist it.

Logic and reason are the basis of science. This is available to anyone who wants to learn more. That's all I do. Yes, I encourage a logical and reasoned approach to religion, and I find that there is absolutely nothing there, and I'd like people to see my point of view. I don't apologize at all for what I'm doing!

davidylan: If there is anything we can take from this post it is that:

1. Atheists EVANGELIZE just as well as anyone else

2. their primary tool of evangelism is manipulation

Yes. I do ask people to question deeply held beliefs. Kind of funny to think of myself as an evangelist when I'm actually encouraging people not to believe anything blindly. Kind of like scientists.

Logicboy03: Wow...a muslim country? You have your work cut out for you menn.


I dont even dare carry my "logicboyness" to Northern Nigeria. They will kill before you can complete the word "non-muslim".

Well, I don't stand on the street outside of mosques shouting 'THERE IS NO ALLAH!!!!!' at the people inside the mosque, but I certainly work on some people, particularly those whose weakness I already know, like ones who drink alcohol or who eat pork....

I'm not in Nigeria but I am in west Africa, in a Muslim country, and I am open about my lack of belief.

On a positive note, the recent jihad in Mali is having just the opposite effect that the jihadis intended: many Muslims here are asking questions about the foundations of their beliefs. I'm doing everything I can to encourage them to read the Quran IN A LANGUAGE THAT THEY CAN UNDERSTAND instead of just reciting Arabic mindlessly. That way they can see that the Quran is just man made (along with the Bible of course...). Also some of the hadiths are crazy or downright vicious.

Affiliated: Fascinating. I didn't know there was such a classification as that

It's sometimes quite amazing to see that our crazy ideas have not only already been thought of, but actually labeled and classified!

Affiliated: Thank you

As regards the atheistic vs. agnostic Nobody has properly defined God but if God is the ultimate supreme being, I don't believe God to be a person or persons (I'm not saying that such persons don't exist) Some cells probably would classify me as God and worship me or something. To me God must be the smallest indivisible thing which makes up everything and to the best of my knowledge for now that thing is energy. So whatever exists is part of the God system (God being the supreme being). I'm just a skeptic though

That would make you a pantheist, or, possibly, a panentheist, depending on whether or not you think that the universe is god or the universe is just one aspect of god.

Logicboy03: Wow, I actually thought that you were an ex-christian. However, do you think it is safe to be openly atheist in a muslim society? Surely you must have gotten some real threats?

I am an ex-christian. I'm just working in a Muslim country (in West Africa). I have never felt threatened at all for being an atheist--like I said, for some reason people tend to listen to me without getting angry. Of course, I never insult Islam or Muhammad or their mallams. However I do challenge them on how much they know about Islam, which usually isn't very much, and we keep it very friendly and joking...

Generally I cause a bit of shock when I say I'm an atheist, usually along the lines of "Astagfirullah! you know you're going to hell!", but that's been about the worst of it. A couple of people have demanded I convert (to Islam, I'm in a mostly Muslim country), but I've responded with polite refusal followed by an outline of my lack of belief. What I've tried to do, with some success, is get people used to the idea that atheists actually exist and don't have horns and a tail. The couple of people who had demanded that I convert are now totally used to my point of view and can even joke about it, and quite a few other people are also comfortable with me; nobody has stayed mad at me for very long. I should say that I think I'm a persuasive person in real life, I would have made a good vampire pastor had I been so inclined. However, I actually have to work for a living.

Logicboy03: lolol


Explanations;

13-Say my religion is peaceful or I kill you


14- when Christopher Hitchens (a popular atheist) was on his deathbed for cancer, some christians started claiming that it was god punishing hima nd they wanted him to forcefully convert before he died. They also tried to pray for him whenever they could. By force prayer. These christians thought they were doing good.

The Mormons go one step further and baptize dead people, even ones dead hundreds of years, without asking permission or telling the deceased's family what they are doing. They've angered quite a few Jews in particular by doing this. This being Nairaland I can't type exactly what I have to say about this foolishness.

Cheers01: It is almost unbelievable but atheism and islam have a common ground. The common ground is that they both have no authoritative leadership. In islam, there is no ultimate imam or cleric like the pope or the hierarchy in the catholic church. Islam has the Quran that is the ultimate. Atheism is similar, there are no popes of atheism and no doctrines/books of atheism.

The Shias actually do have a hierarchy somewhat like the Catholic Church. The highest ranking cleric is called an "Ayatollah", and their interpretations are often considered as authoritative. Also some of the Ismailis have type of "Pope" called the Aga Khan.

13) You constantly say that your religion is peaceful while in the middle of a holy war.

14) You say to non-believers "I'll pray for you" and think that it sounds genuinely caring instead of pompous and arrogant.

Logicboy03: 1) You believe that your religion makes you good. (rather than the individual actions or behaviour)

2) You believe that others who dont believe in your god/religion are automatically evil

3) You believe that your religion is more important than others and should be the ultimate law in the country

4) You believe that your religion comes before humanity. It is okay to kill or die for religion

5) You believe that people should be arrested or killed for mocking your religion

6) You believe that people will suffer in the afterlife, no matter how good they are for not following your religion

7) You believe that it is possible for your religion to dictate every single aspect of one's life

You do not want to have friends who do not follow your religion

9) You are willing to kick your teenage children out of the house for not following your religion

10) You are willing to kill a child for not following your religion. Honour killing.



Written by logicboy


Do you have any of the following symptoms?

11) You believe that everything bad that happens to you and your people is just God testing your faith, while anything bad that happens to people of other religions is God's punishment.