₦airaland Forum

Bélla3: Atheism is a religion! Just say its nt an organised religion

My favorite TV channel is 'off'. My favorite sport is 'not playing football'.

inspiredbyGOD:.:
^^^^ What did you expect it to follow? if we are to seriously look at it, do you know that atheism could lead someone on such a path?

I can't think of any atheists who have killed in the name of God but I can think of many believers who have done so!

I'm an atheist, but in all fairness I'd say St. Francis of Assisi came as close as anyone to being a 'humble servant of God'. At least he gave up a comfortable life to live a life of extreme poverty and humility.

Omo Alata: Died peacefully Vidal died of complications from pneumonia.

Pneumonia complications may include:

Bacteria in your bloodstream.
Septic shock.
Fluid accumulation and infection around your lungs.
Lung abscess.
Acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS).

At age 87 this is a rather normal death for many people. He did not die a violent death.

Last year Gore Vidal died after a lifetime of condemning God and declaring widely his contempt for religion. He was 87 and died peacefully. So much for this theory of the OP.

It's kind of funny to see the Christians here approaching the philosophical position of solipcism. Do you ultimately know anything other than the fact that you exist? Is all else just an illusion?

If we should never trust any information that we have not personally verified by doing our own experiments then there is no point in arguing this thread.
Christians have faith in something for which there is plenty of rational evidence to suggest is not true (Genesis). If you want to say that people who believe in evolution have faith in the scientists, I'd say that we don't, because we ask them to submit rational, logical, and scientific proof of their positions. Otherwise we are not encouraged to believe them.

On the other hand Christians cannot go and ask the authors of the Bible to submit proof of their assertions, nor can we replicate experiments that they left behind for analysis. But believe me, I'd love to travel back in time and give the 'prophets' a thorough interrogation!

frosbel: Some more questions for our atheists in Nairaland :


1. Does the universe have a beginning that requires a cause? If so, what was this cause?

2. Is materialistic determinism compatible with the intrinsically probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics?

3. How do you account for the physical parameters of the universe (the gravitational constant, the strong nuclear force, the mass and charge of a proton, etc.) being finely tuned for the existence of stars, planets, and life?

4. Why is the human mind naturally fluent in the language of mathematics, and how do you explain the eerie, seemingly unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in describing the laws of nature?

5. Do you believe that DNA repair mechanisms, catalytically perfect enzymes, and phenomena such as substrate channeling are best explained by naturalism? If so, why are rational human scientists and engineers so woefully incapable of imitating the precision and complexity of cellular machinery that (presumably) arose via strictly irrational processes?

Source

1. Not necessarily. Proof needed.

2. The macro world being deterministic is debatable.

3. Finely tuned? You are begging the question. Given the chaos present in the universe, I can't go along with the notion of finely tuned.

4. Evolution has given man the ability to do high level math. And math is not 'unreasonably effective'. It is very reasonable. Once again you are begging the question.

5. Yes I do believe that naturalism explains these concepts. Just because science has not done such yet does not mean it will never be done.

If you want to say that I have 'faith' in science, I accept that, but only because science begins with the idea that it is capable of being proven wrong and self-correcting, unlike certain other beliefs which supposedly are eternal.

frosbel: I start with mine :

1. Using logic, reason and scientific evidence, kindly trace back to the beginning , the origin of MAN.

2. In your own words, describe how you think human reproductive organs evolved into what it is today

3. If we came from monkeys , how come we still have monkeys around today


Thanks,

1. There are many books on this. One cannot answer this question on a simple forum. Just like if I asked you to trace the development of Christianity from its origins to the present. You can't do it justice on a forum.

2. Adaptive genetic mutations are the source of changes in species over time.

3. We did not come from monkeys. If Christianity came from Judaism, why is there still Judaism?

A superb explanation from an atheist in response to mother concerned about her son's atheism. It's the best explanation of atheism I have seen.

I saw it on reddit:

Hi Unsuremother,
First, off, though I am an atheist myself, I want to empathize a little: this must be difficult for you and your family. Your faith commitment is an important part of your life and it is bewildering to have your own child turn away from this. I don't know exactly what you believe, but you might be worried about his soul in the next life, or his behaviour in this one. If you don't believe in God, how do you know right from wrong? If you reject God, how will you be reunited with Him in the next Kingdom?
The most important thing to understand is that these kinds of concerns, while very vivid and real to you, only make sense within a belief system your son no longer accepts. There is no sense in making threats of Hell or damnation anymore: atheists do not believe such a place exists. We don't believe such a place could exist. The thing that is important to remember is that while we no longer believe that there are places beyond the world, the world he lives in has now become all the more important. That's all we have. That's all we ever have. His world is family, and school, and friends: all these things structure his life and he will need them more than ever. He needs you. He's still a kid, and he's a kid dealing with Really Big Questions in the only way he can: honestly and critically.
Most of us have come to this point honestly. This must be emphasized. We're not angry at God, we're not trying to get attention or going through some cultural phase. We looked at the arguments on both sides and came to the best conclusion we could. We only have 70 odd years on this planet. We make mistakes, too; we are fallible creatures prone to error and haste. We do our best. And sometimes our best is 'well, I don't think any of this is right.' I don't pretend to have all the answers. I don't rightly know where the universe came from, or how life began at first. But I don't need all the answers to know that some answers are the wrong ones. I don't know, and I don't think Christians, or Muslims, or Taoists know either. They claim to know; I claim to not know.
Suppose I'm wrong. Suppose your son is wrong. I'm standing outside the pearly gates and St. Peter, or God Himself, gives me one chance to explain myself. What would I say except "I'm sorry--I got it wrong. I really tried. But I got it wrong. I saw all the different religions, each saying different things, all changing over time. It seemed just a part of human culture, not ultimate truth. I saw unnecessary suffering and couldn't make heads or tails of it, if you were good and all-powerful. It didn't make sense to me to posit something existing to explain existence: that gets it backwards. I'm sorry, God, that I didn't believe in you, but it wasn't malicious--I just--I just screwed up."
What would Jesus say to that? Would he send me to suffer forever? Do I deserve to be tortured eternally because I read Lucretius as a young man--the 2,000 year old Roman poet who professed his atheism before Christ ever walked desert sand? Because I looked at the ontological argument and found it wanting?
Or would he press me to Him and forgive me? And wouldn't I desire that forgiveness---?
If there is a God that would send me to Hell for making this mistake, I don't want it in my life. Nothing justifies torture. Nothing at all. And He would not be worthy of worship--or even respect. If He is merciful, then I will apologize. If I am right--and he doesn't exist--then I live my life as a free man.
And that is how atheists live: under actual freedom. The German philosopher Nietzsche wrote that 'freedom is responsibility'--genuine freedom. I am responsible for the consequences of my actions. So: how do I live? What do I do? Do I want to live in a society where everyone does what they can get away with? What standards do I hold myself up to? This is the essence of the atheist's morality: his freedom, his rationality.
Before even Lucretius wrote his atheistic treatise De Rerum Natura, there was another man, Socrates, who asked a simple and startling question: Does God say something is Good because it is good, or is something good because God says it is? We must be careful here. If what is good is whatever God says is good, then we have no morality at all, but caprice. If God says: kill your son! it is good to kill your son. If God says: from henceforth, children shall be murdered--then it is good, by definition, that children be murdered. But that's not morality. That's authoritarianism. And if you say: "But God would never do that," I ask: why? Because if there is a reason, then goodness is independent from God after all. It is grounded elsewhere. In what? Well: maybe in reason itself? Or maybe morality is just part of the universe--a different kind of part, not like your sofa or TV or the moon is part of the universe, but the way numbers, or relations (like 'equal to')--an abstract object, none less the real.
There is a very, very long tradition of ethical thinking that is, in fact, older than Christianity itself. In philosophy classes we teach wisdom that was recorded a millennium before Christ. If it is impossible to be good without God, there wouldn't be one virtuous atheist. Yet there are millions of us non-religious men and women on the planet, and we live our lives, as best we can. Atheists don't fill the newspapers with tales of carnage or debauchery--clearly we can figure it out on our own.
Well. Not quite on our own. We have each other. No one else--just each other. And that's enough.

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/16l13l/hello_reddit_im_a_christian_mother_and_my_son/

Maybe God died during the Big Bang explosion.

Logicboy03: Someone sent me an email telling me to kneel down to receive jesus when he comes with his immaculate white goodness.


Surely, Jesus is a moracle worker not a sex worker

Maybe that explains the behavior of some of the priests!

You need to get on your knees right now and thank God for delivering your family from blind servitude to Him and His cruel ways.

Sweetnecta: after this, i will leave nairaland for the person who cant do but hide posts.

when i read the hadith you presented, my brain was able to register the fact that all of the signs have not happened, except the fact that constantinople has became a land of muslims. if the conquering of constantinople is what is sticking your throat, then you do not know what will happen in the future. maybe constantinople will fall into the hands of non muslism. or islam will be so weak in this land that it will be that their returning into Islam, is like conquering it.


this returning to it will be therefore at the end of time, when dajjal will be appearing. look, who would have thought there will be a country known as saudi arabia? and others? who would have thought that kalifah will move from the hands of arabs to turks? stick around till the last day and see if the hadith is not 100% correct.


who knows how many time constantinople will fall into the hands of the enemy before Islam finally capture it for the last time? you must have heard that those who do not learn from the past may definitely repeat the 'mistake' of that era? many turks left islam so much so you will think islam will not return there, until just the past decade. who know what will happen now that they wanna be part of the eu? who knows.


Major Signs before the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah)
www.inter-islam.org/faith/Majorsigns.html

This illustrates why it is useless to talk about predictions: they are vague enough that anyone can find whatever they want in order to confirm what they believe.

wiegraf: Really, I do admire bits of the Jesus legend. For instance, I actually capitalize his name, unlike his oga lol. There are question marks, but for its time it really was awesome. He's earned my respect. Just the Jesus stories, message of love, etc though. The religious bits have always been, well..

I don't think Jesus was a bad guy either. He had some pretty radical views for his time, although it's clear that some of what he said was taken from earlier Jewish thinkers like Rabbi Hillel. I also like that fact that he openly challenged religious leaders, calling them hypocrites. However, just being a good philosopher does not make him a son of god or a prophet any more than say, Voltaire or Plato.

Sweetnecta: i think you need a hardhat of a thinking cap. Surah Rum is recited the moment it was revealed, the same exact way it is recited, today. further, it was at least 6 years before the beginning of the war, which its battles, at the end spelled doom of Persia and Rome was victorious. you should at least research it on Google before you are typing this.


your case sir is pitiful. the only time Muhammad [sa] got involved he got it right and persia was doomed. the getting it right was not the matter here. it is the waterloo of the persian that is the litmus. did they fight rome, again? the answer is no. some day the romans will be palestinians an the persian will be the zionists.



every time Muhammad [sa] weighted in on anything, he is on the winning side, exactly as he says it will turn out. Is there a greater average or a better proof of being a prophet as he said he is or a prophet that has a better record on matter? look. abulahab had 10 years to prove Muhammad wrong. all he had to do was to say he was a muslim for a moment and declares that he left islam after that. this he did not do because God has blocked his heart an kept it in kufr, just like pharaoh of the time of Moses. if a person says i will never do something and i wish to prove him a liar, i will just do it and step away from it, right away. a friend wanted to prove that drinking is bad, he dipped his tongue into a glass of wine and he immediately spitted it out say its yawcky. even that could have been enough, especially when everyone was saying to him that his nephew says he will die without ever entering Islam for 10 years before he died.


there is big deal if you think about it. 100% accuracy of prediction is a very big deal. Thats the sign that God is the Director of his statements. or do you know ordinary people with 100% accuracy and his statement is standing all tests of times?


When dajjal is here, constantinople will still be in the hand of Muslims. i hope you get it like that. Muhammad [sa] did not say that constantinople will fall only when dajjal is on earth. when dajjal arrives, constantinople will still be a muslim community.

Some of the hadiths of Muhammad regarding the end of the world:

Narrated Mu’adh ibn Jabal:
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The flourishing state of Jerusalem will be when Yathrib[Medina] is in ruins, the ruined state of Yathrib will be when the great war comes, the outbreak of the great war will be at the conquest of Constantinople and the conquest of Constantinople when the Dajjal (Antichrist) comes forth. He (the Prophet) struck his thigh or his shoulder with his hand and said: This is as true as you are here or as you are sitting (meaning Mu’adh ibn Jabal).

The conquest of Constantinople was in 1453. Muhammad was wrong.

Narrated Abdullah ibn Busr:
The Prophet said: The time between the great war and the conquest of the city (Constantinople) will be six years, and the Dajjal (Antichrist) will come forth in the seventh.

The Antichrist did not come in 1454 when Muhammad said he would. Wrong again.

Sahih Muslim:
Anas reported that a person asked Allah’s Messenger (p.b.u.h) as to when the Last Hour would come. He had in his presence a young boy of the Ansar who was called Mahammad. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: If this young boy lives, he may not grow very old till (he would see) the Last Hour coming to you.

So here Muhammad is saying that the last hour would come within this young boy's lifetime, which ended at least 1300 years ago. Wrong again!

I'm not seeing anything here that would show Muhammad to be a prophet.

I often say I was a 'born-atheist' because I cannot think of a time where I ever really believed in any religion. However, given my upbringing, I did accept the notion of God. My parents were not really devout though I was forced to go to church. I found the whole experience fake and boring, and I would sneak in books to read during the sermon. My mother tolerated this. Then when I was 16 my mother told me that she would no longer force me to go. I stopped going IMMEDIATELY and never went back.

At university I looked into other religions and found them just as uninspiring, though I at least admired Buddha for not claiming to be a god, a son of a god, or a prophet.

What made me an atheist, however, was reading the Bible and the Quran. The God portrayed in those books has way too much evil (as well as making some dumb mistakes) for me to accept as a God. In addition, reading other books like "God is not Great" and "the God Delusion" made me think that atheists make a more convincing argument. In recent years this has been strengthened by looking at internet websites like reddit.

Sweetnecta: Surah Rome. Surah Maun. read both. Quran says Rome will defeat Persia in their second battle. Quran says AbuLahab will never become muslim. Both happend. Hadith; Muslim will be large but their faith level will be low like the foam on the surface of the ocean, driven by waves. The enemies will call on each other/one another against it. Today christians supports jews, support hindus and nations make alliances against muslims and rise against us.

my faith is solid in what God revealed and specifically, i hold firmly to the last revelation, clearing out the misconceptions that were before its revelation. and in 60 years from now, you will see what you will see. God is always in charge. Just dont die in this ignorance of arrogance.

Two major criticisms of the 'prediction' of Persia's defeat in a battle:

1) given that this battle took place while Muhammad was still alive and before the Quran was written down, we have no idea if he didn't actually 'predict' the outcome after he already knew about it.
2) the Persian and the Roman Empires had been battling for CENTURIES, going back and forth, winning one battle, losing another. Predicting victory by one side or the other in a battle would be like predicting a coin toss--50/50 chance of getting it right. Not very impressive.

Concerning the conversion of Abulahab: again, 50/50 chance of getting it right: does he convert or not?

The rest of the predictions are just a matter of perception and timing--these are the kind of things that happen all the time anyway (lack of faith, shifting alliances, etc.) No big deal.

Muhammad predicted that Constantinople would fall to the Muslims at the very end of the world, around the time of the Dajjal and Jesus' return. Constantinople fell to the Muslims in 1453 AD and the world still hasn't seen the end times. And the Dajjal and Jesus are nowhere to be seen....so that counts as a big fail.

Sweetnecta: the wozzie logicboy03 is asking question as if he is innocent. werent you the person who brought this on yourself when you attacked islam and asked that i opened a thread to talk about it?

is there any other way? Moses became a prophet at the burning bush. was anyone there to witness it, but that we believed Moses was honest? Muhammad [sa] was amin [the truthful]. so what disqualifies Muhammad [sa] from being a prophet and what qualifies Moses as prophet and who can absolutely say a person is a prophet of God, except God Himself? if i use the bible to qualify a prophet, in ot and nt, whatever qualifies a person as prophet, Muhammad [sa] fits each to a t.

I'm afraid that no prophet has ever proven themselves, at least to people who consider themselves rationalists and empiricists. Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were not prophets. I'm not just picking on Muhammad here, I don't believe in any prophet or religion.

begging the question when i answered the opinion of proving a prophet as a prophet by all possible evidences. nothing Muhammad [sa] said that has not came to pass in the exact time, exactly as he said it will happen. God spoke through Muhammad in a revelation called Al Quran. what no one fulfills in the Bible, Muhammad [sa] fulfilled it: he shall not speak of his own but what he hears from God he shall repeat. . .

I'm not aware of even a single precise, specific prediction that Muhammad made that has come to pass. Or, rather, I can make predictions also: in the coming years there will be wars, diseases, sexual immorality, jealousy, and greed. If this comes true then will you accept me as a prophet?

i am sure that you will not apply the same rules to others you call prophets. heck. who are you anyway as if you are important? no. not at all. prophet of God does not have to be popular with disbelievers. heck. you are a disbeliever.

I don't call anyone a prophet; and yes, I am certainly a disbeliever.

i dont know who bahai and baha'ullah are. Allah answers them in the same Quran. chapter 33 where Muhammad is stated as the last/seal of prophets. no prophet will come after him. he also emphasized that in his sunan. you and baha and baha'ullah are liars.

If you use the same standard of evidence for Baha'ullah as you do for Muhammad, then both of them should be called liars, or both are prophets.

Jesus was a prophet [as]. you better not live a life of deceit. someday you will grow up and see how feeble you are. i give you 60 years.

Fine, call Jesus a prophet, just as long as you realize that this is purely a matter of faith, which is defined as 'belief in the absence of evidence'. But you are correct on one thing: I would be living a life of deceit if I claimed that I believed in Jesus or Muhammad, because I don't. Can you show me that Muhammad was not being deceitful? Can you prove that he was not, deep in his heart, an atheist?

In 60 years I will be in a much less organized state of existence (i.e. dead). I am not a young man.

Sweetnecta: God knows who His Messenger with His Book is. You are not. The jews says Jesus was not. God knows Jesus is. You, the jews and your christian brethren say Muhammad [sa] is not. God knows he is. You can write what you will and say its from God. Many have. Jeremiah let us know that the jews of his days changed the torah. The same changed torah in your bibles, today. you call it word of God, erroneously, so. What is completely from God fulfilling what is authentic in the books before it, you now deny it and the prophet who corrects and sets matters aright.


the father of faith is Abraham. we must expect that his faith is the right faith from God. since he was not a jew, he was not a christian, too. then no prophet is a jew or chrstian. the only Abrahamaic religion standing is Islam. and thats the logical evidence, even from your own write up here that Jesus was a muslim. logically so.


a prophet who preached the existence of God would not believe in "the God delusion, by richard dawkins". however a prophet believes in the prophet that succeeds him. just in the same way that the one after him believed him as a previous prophet of God. Jesus would have followed Muhammad just the same way Moses would have followed Jesus.


but it is in this Quran you will find the complete Islam. and it is in the time of this prophet [Muhammad [sa]] that Islam is completed. are you not spiting your face because you dislike your nose? you can't use Quran to argue against belief in God, because the complete and final format of belief in God is in it. and not in any book, being the last revelation of God.


the only way you could have won this argument is if Jesus had said there is no one to come after him. but he said expect the comforter, the prophet who was neither Jesus the christ nor John who was Elijah, according to biblical Jesus. The idea is that if Abraham were to be alive when Moses was preaching, he would have supported him against pharaoh. Moses would have supported Jesus against the lost sheep of the house of israel and Jesus would have supported Muhammad against disbeief.

The flaw in all this is that you begin with the unproven assumption that Muhammad is a prophet and the Quran is the word of God. Such an assumption is a logical fallacy called "begging the question". Unlike you I do not start with the assumption that Muhammad is a prophet, and until that time occurs I cannot accept your argument. In addition you speculate on 'what the prophets would do' in certain situations. This is also a logical fallacy.

Also, the Bahai claim that Baha'ullah is the next prophet after Muhammad, and they cite Quranic verses as backup. Why is Baha'ullah then not considered a Muslim?

Also to clear up any confusion: you referred to me as a Christian. I am not a Christian, I am an atheist. Jesus was neither a prophet nor the son of God.

Stalwert: And jesus called his mother woman, his elders vipers, . . . In the bible And Islamically that is not the ideals of a prophet, so we don't believe every crap we read in the bible. funny that he actually called his mother woman when converting water to wine . . .

The prophet of Allah said:
"If anyone proudly asserts his descent in the manner of the pre-Islamic people, tell him to bite his father's pen!s, and do not use a euphemism".
(Hadith - Mishkat Al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p. 1021)

Is that kind of insult Islamically the ideals of a prophet?

F00028: matter of fact that's all you do.

God, in the Quran, tells man to think, ponder, reflect, investigate, even ask those with knowledge of things one needs not know.

christians, on the other hand started rejecting the biblical god once they started to think. that's how all logicboy's heroes were born.

I can also write a book telling people to think, reason, reflect, and investigate, just as long as in the end they accept my book as the ultimate perfect truth. Even if I say the sun sets in a mud puddle.

From the Quran; This Quran is from your Lord. From the Quran: Oh Muhammad [sa], we have sent you as a mercy to mankind [not to the arabs. but all mankind]. your assignment is to google the out the verses.

This is not proof of anything. I can write a book and include the sentence that it is the word of God. That would be the proof that my book is the word of God.

the Quran after they have left. it is absurd the way you are thinking. however Abraham did not believe in the torah of Moses because he was already left before it was revealed. If Abraham were to have been alive, he would have believed it. Same is Moses to Injil of Jesus not what John, Mark, Luke and Matthew penned. Jesus would have believed the Quran if he were alive.

Abraham was not a Jew in a religious sense, because he did not follow the Torah, rather a monotheist only. Moses was not a Christian, he did not have the Gospel; Jesus was not a Muslim, he did not have the Quran. Very logical.

You cannot say that "Jesus would have believed the Quran if he were alive". This is speculation and not evidence of anything. I can turn around and say that Muhammad would have believed "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins if he were alive today, and that he would have become an atheist.


You are left with two choices, neither of them good:
1) If you say that Jesus and Moses were Muslims because they submitted to God, then ANYONE who claims that they are submitting to God is a Muslim, even if they reject the Quran and believes that it is fake. In other words, Muslims do not have to accept the Quran or Muhammad.

2) If you say that a Muslim is one who accepts Muhammad as a prophet and the Quran is the word of God, then Jesus and Moses were by definition not Muslims because they did not accept Muhammad.

Sweetnecta: is there any jew that practices baptism?

i dont know where onetrack is located. but logicboy03, there is no excuse for you to not ask a jew in london if they practice baptism.


maybe barmitva, the right of coming of age at 13. but no immersing in water. none.

Orthodox Jews do a ritual immersion, called a mikvah, for converts to Judaism and in a few other rare rituals.

I am in West Africa but not Nigeria. Very few Jews here, mostly Muslims, a few Christians, and virtually no atheists

Logicboy03: [size=18pt]27) The inconsistency of a good God and the God of the old testament[/size]

[size=14pt]
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."[/size]



God in the old testament sanctioned many crimes against humanity like slavery (Leviticus 25;44) and genocide (1 Samuel 15:3). This is in contrast with what Christians and Jews call a good God that should be worshiped.

This is really my main basis for being an atheist. God is evil in any and every sense of the word. Even if he did exist he certainly wouldn't be worthy of genuine worship except by masochists or people with Stockholm Syndrome.

Sweetnecta: ^^^ you cant be a muslim, a term that is completely and fully defined by and in the Quran and at the same time disbelieve in the same Quran that you will use to indicate that you are a muslim. you will going against the road that you are wholeheartedly planting your feet on.

Jesus and Moses did not believe in the Quran. So they are disqualified from being Muslims, by your own logic.

Checkmate.

Sweetnecta: Quran is not after the fact because God is The Fact Owner and He has presented the Quran to the world as the fact library. If the Quran is presented in 60000 trillion years it will not make any difference.

Give proof that God 'owns' the Quran and that he presented it to the world.

aurenflani: Jesus is a Muslim. Who is a Muslim? The one who believes that there is only one God, and submits to His Will.

So if I genuinely believe in one God, and want to do his will, but I genuinely believe that the Quran is not the word of God, but rather Satan, and that God wants me not to believe in the Quran, does this also make me a Muslim? After all, I firmly believe that I am submitting to God's will in rejecting the Quran.

Sweetnecta: The Quran says Jesus is a muslim. A messenger of God to the children of Israel and an announcer of a prophet to come whose name is Ahmad.

You can't use after-the-fact documents to prove that a prediction is going to come true. Jesus never predicted anyone's arrival.

And so the Quran says that Jesus was a muslim. There are many books which says he was not. Remember, I'm an atheist, and I don't place any more trust in the historical accuracy of the Quran than any other book.

Sweetnecta: @Onetrack and logicboy03: What makes up the religion known as judaism? How is Jesus one? How is Jesus not an orthodox jew in religion? what makes up the brand of judaism that you said Jesus practiced?

when you people make statements, you need to give evidence[s]. I know alot of jews; the many branches of orthodoxy and even the liberal to the ultra reform.

I dont see Jesus being any of them because their prophetic office stopped at Moses and it does not include Jesus.

Moses did not worship like any orthodox. neither did Jesus worship like any orthodox or any other.

Both believed in 1 God without a real son, not begotten son. Both submitted their wills completely to God. Both stood, bowed and prostrated himself to God. Both depended on God and neither is able to do anything except what ordered him.

The sum of Judaism is the Torah and testimony of people they consider prophets, plus, these days, the Talmud. There are different sects within Judaism just as in Islam. Which type of Islam do you practice (Shia, Sunni, Ismaili, Ahmedi)? There are some important differences between the sects in Islam just as in Judaism. Jesus appeared to belong to an ascetic sect, possibly Essenes or Nazarenes, but he identified as Jewish in religious practice (why else would he challenge the Jewish rabbis on what Jewish law stated)?

And how could Moses have been anything BUT orthodox? He IS the lawgiver of the Jews. It's like saying Muhammad was not an orthodox Muslim!

The prophets of Judaism did not stop with Moses; they had many after (David, Solomon, Elijah), and their last prophet was probably Malachi.

Jesus said he was the Messiah promised by Jewish tradition, as such he felt he was perfectly within Jewish religious parameters. Obviously, many other Jews did not agree.

Jesus was by practice Jewish, though not very orthodox in practice. He endorsed the laws laid down according to the Torah and Oral Law (later written down as the Talmud). He was baptized by full immersion in water (reflecting a particular sect of Judaism at the time, but usually only administered to converts). However, in some ways he was at odds with Rabbinic Judaism because he defied the rabbis on several occasions regarding rules.

There is nothing to suggest that he was a Muslim in any sense of the word as it is used today: he did not recite the Shahada, he did not pray 5 times a day toward Mecca, he did not fast during the month of Ramadan, and he did not accept the Quran as the word of God. And you cannot be a Muslim if you do not do any of those things. A Muslim would never turn water into wine for the people at a wedding. Neither Jesus nor Moses were not a Muslim, Mohammad just made that claim only to try to attract supporters from the Christian and Jewish communities who lived in Arabia.

I'll write in Buddha instead.

Atheist:-D:
How do muslims feel about the statements to destroy the pyramids? Is it a wise move or not?

I think that most Egyptians would be against this. Only a handful of whackos would support this. It will never happen.