₦airaland Forum

Nigerian pastors even up till this moment, usually make altar calls for salvation in the congregation of the already saved people trying to give people the impression that they are winning souls for Christ.
This is a sign that they don't know what they should be doing as men of God.

And i ask myself, do these people mean what they are preaching or they are into serious money making business ?

Tommorow, if anything happens God forbid, and you hear that one prominent pastor has been committing atrocities in the secret, it will not be a thing of suprise because these people were never real.
With their activities, they can turn a whole nation into zombie

THERE IS NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE.
DISCIPLES FROM VARIOUS COUNTRIES CANNOT POSSIBLY COME OUT TO TESTIFY THE SAME THING AGAINST THIS MAN THAT EVEN HIS OWN DAUGHTER HAS CONFIRMED.

THOSE THAT ARE STILL SHOUTING THAT THE DOCUMENTARY WAS COOKED, IS IT THAT THEY WERE SO CLOSE TO THIS LATE PASTOR THAT THEY KNOW THE IN AND OUT OF HIS PRIVATE LIFE?

IF YOU DON'T KNOW THIS MAN AT THE LEVEL OF HIS PRIVATE LIFE WHY THEN ARE YOU DEFENDING HIM?

thinkmoney:
Kai my brother, e don do abeg. I dey get headache already. Na only u understand wetin u dey talk oh.

bible isn't that easy to understand o.
You go consider time
You go consider the event
You go relate all scriptures before you draw the conclusion.
Otherwise, you go think say you dey read, but nothing.

That portion of the Bible is clear enough and I no see where old and new covenant take enter

you can't possibly see now!
It took me to read and understand the events and stories back to back. The aim was to have a thorough overview.
The summary of overview is that, Jesus embarked on a journey with his disciples to Jerusalem where he will die and resurrect to establish the new covenant. During this journey he performed a lot of miracles and over 5000 of these disciples followed him in the wilderness. But when they were about arriving Jerusalem, almost everyone of them left him.
You will notice that some bible have maps, chats to explain this journey.
Then i was relating this overview from one scripture to another come and see the correlation and better understanding.

My brother, religion nor dey help us understand o
No wonder Europeans are saying Africans don't read

thinkmoney:
Comprehension is issue in Nigeria. U heard in that verse where the would be condemned people where telling Jesus, “Lord lord, in your name we performed miracles in your name we cast out Demons”, yet Christ said he doesn’t know them.
It’s obvious from that verse that those people called and used Christ name till the end still Christ himself said he doesn’t know them. And here u are arguing otherwise

till what end, be specific?

Becausw if you follow the story carefully, you will notice that there was a specific end.
The specific end marks the end of the old covenant which ended at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
So, it means that when Jesus told them that he know them not, he meant that those disciples were never going to be part of the new covenant.
Remember, i told you that these disciples went away on their own due to unbelief. (John6:66) Meaning, they will not witness the death and resurrection of Jesus and be part of the new covenant.
It's not as if Jesus drive them away.
They decided to go away on their own, hence Jesus described them as workers of iniquity and said to them i know ye not).

I'm taking time to explain this because, we Africans we are very funny people.
The moment we see workers of iniquity, yes, to us the scripture is referring to false prophets like TB Joshua.

You don't use scriptures to condemn people like that for eternal judgement, a believer for that matter.
If you want to condemn them for their wrong doing please use something else, it's allowed.

thinkmoney:
Those people in that verse called the name of the lord obviously till they met Jesus at judgement. We can imagine they did all their life’s and they weren’t even known by The Lord.

who said so that they weren't even known by Lord?
Are you telling me that Jesus didn't know his disciples?

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I'm telling you that, many of these disciples called Jesus Lord Lord, yet they rejected him when the time came. John 6:66.
Even Peter denied him at some point, but he was restored.

We all know that TB Joshua never denied Jesus but consistently calling his name throughout his ministry, so stop being judgemental.

So please let’s let Bible guide us and eschew sentiments. Bible clearly said they also performed miracles and cast out demons yet Christ do not know them.]/quote] it's still the same thing I'm saying
[quote]If you understand Bible very well and study revelation in particular, you will understand that in the Bible has foretold that in our time

sorry, bible never mentioned our time, it's purely assumption.
Do you know how many time's that have passed since the book of revelation was written?
Why must it be our time?

false prophets will come up and the Devil (the beast in Revelation) will empower them to prophesy and perform great miracles. So Devil actually empower this men

I'm telling you that TB Joshua may have practiced religion falsely, but you can't dispute the fact that he believed in Christ.
Ofcourse, no one that is a Christian that does not do falsely too.

Peter denied Jesus falsely 3 times, did heaven break lose?
No!
But the same Peter was saved

thinkmoney:
All u have said is not consistent with the Bible. U may use Jesus’ name and not be a Christian really.

You may use Jesus name as an unbeliever for how long?
See, you can't serve two masters at a time it's not possible.
You can't consistently call the name of Jesus for long when you are a Muslim or Hinduist or Buhuddist., it's not possible.
We judge people by what they believe through their consistent actions.
The bible says whoever call the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So if the man has consistently call the name of the Lord throughout his ministry, you are no in better position to judge whether God accepted him or not.

You may even do good all your life and not be acceptable especially if the things that empower u arent from God

you are right here
doing good has nothing to do with ones religion or faith.

But do you think that the man truly had any power from anywhere to perform miracles?
You know, people are easily deceived.
The truth is, there is no mountain anywhere one can go to get power.
All those miracles you see him or any pastor performing might just be fictions of the mind and can be arranged by some acted scripts

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!" Matthew 7:21-23

To confirm what i said, look at the scripture again.
Can one truly call Jesus Lord Lord when he truly do not believe deep in his heart?
Even if he does, for how long?

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Which means, they truly did not believe in their heart. That's why Jesus said not everyone who called him Lord Lord shall be saved.
He was strictly referring to those his disciples.

But that is not the case with this TB Joshua, he was consistently calling the name of Christ throughout his ministry, we all saw it.

All i will say about him is, like many Christians today especially in Africa, the man did all he did out of ignorance and he has paid dearly for it.

If all the reports presented by BBC about this man are true, then he was certainly a psychopath philanthropist, traditional fetish religionist whose gifts of miracles cannot be verified to be from God.
And no one can say he is not a Christian because he clearly believes in Jesus Christ.

The question now is, is he in heaven?
The answer is, he is certainly in heaven inspite all that he has done.

This call for a caution : That one should not allow to be brainwashed any man of God because at the end, you will have yourself to blame

KnownUnknown:
What are these evidence? You must have made this intelligent religious research to be confident enough to make these claims.

it will make no meaning to you, except you have been familarized with the content of the book.
You will just be like someone who is being thought cybersecurity when you don't even understand back-end coding, or someone who is going to law school when he doesn't understand literature.

Even intelligent pastors who are considered great pastors by the people, are really finding it difficult to grasp the reality of the book. That explains why the religion is currently in a state of quagmire in terms of intelligent or factual representations of it teachings and everyone are teaching what suits their desire thereby the offshoot of millions of Christian denominations with their own peculiar doctrines.which is truly a huge problem.
And that is why they cannot explain to atheists who had truly wanted to know.

Like i have said, it will take your desire to know atleast the basics, before i can start explaining. Otherwise, all my explanation will make no meaning to you

KnownUnknown:
Which implies things that happen within religious mythology are spiritual.

that is how religious people ostensibly present it to the world.
But in the real sense, unknown to them there are real evidences/facts about the validity of the Christian holy book called the bible.
It will take only an intelligent religious research to unvail these evidences

KnownUnknown:
What are these physical evidence of the “supernatural”?

you will only see that when you have interest in studying religious books

PoliteActivist:
*Politeness*
Bottom line: we have NO WAY of knowing if a supernatural exists.

not really!
There are physical evidences

It is possible erything in our reality has natural explanations - only that we don't yet know what some of them are.

very true

NNTR:
1.
Faith without work, as in, faith, if it does not have works (e.g. read his books) to back it up, is by itself dead, inoperative and ineffective

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

good!
Now, take a critical look at that statement FAITH without WORKS.
Between the two words FAITH and WORKS which one will you classify as SPIRITUAL and the other PHYSICAL?

This is essential to get the answer to the question as to why a student who don't read will fail his exam inspite that he prayed and fasted

NNTR:
1. Where does the thought comes from, that lets a driver get behind the steering wheel of car and set off to drive the car whilst under the influence of above the legal limit alcohol consumption?
2. Where does the thought comes from, when a 'pedalfile' sic, gets excited and sexually aroused at sight of children?
3. Where does the thought comes from, when depression or anxiety-related people, not minding permanent brain damage risks, get high on taking illicit or hard substances?
4. Where does the thought comes from, when a person is being sexually unfaithful to his/her partner?
5. Where does the thought comes from when paistors et cetera perfect the art of hoodwinking, deceiving, misleading others?
6. Where does the thought comes from, if a student fails to read his/her books but keeps praying and fast to pass exams?
7. Whats the origin of those thoughts influencing the subjects in #1 - #6?

Faith without work, as in, faith, if it does not have works (e.g. read his books) to back it up, is by itself dead, inoperative and ineffective

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

i will follow the suggestion PoliteActivist gave.
For the purpose of clarity, here are the definitions of these four words: Spirit, Spiritual, thought and Physical from Oxford dictionary as they relate to what we are discussing

SPIRIT :
a supernatural being or essence of such
SPIRITUAL :
of or relating to sacred matters
THOUGHT :
an individual act of thinking or product of thinking
PHYSICAL :
having material existence : perceptible especially through the senses and subject to the laws of nature

From these definitions you will see that :
1.The words spirit and spiritual do not have the same meaning
2. The word spiritual relates to sacred matters: Example is the illustration i gave to you concerning Adeboye as a spiritual father
3. The word thought is thinking of the physical mind and has nothing to do with spirits : that's why i declined responding to all those your questions in the first place. Because I was thinking, what exactly is the relationship between spirit and thought?
4. The word physical also encompasses senses in which thoughts of the mind falls within.

Have i answered all your questions now?

PoliteActivist:
*Politeness*
NNTR, paxonel you folks started out with a fundamental flaw of omission - you failed to first define what you mean by "spiritual". Whether spiritual controls physical or even exists at all, depends entirely on how you define spiritual

maybe this actually the cause of the extensive debate.

I was about to find out, maybe we should go back and define those parameter for clarity

PoliteActivist:
*Politeness*
So where do your thoughts come from? They certainly don't come from you (so much for the much-touted free will!). So let's go to the beginning. Does a fetus have any thoughts? Highly unlikely. Why not? Well, same reason a stone doesn't have thoughts - no brain. How about a new born baby? Well, there is some rudimentary "thought" because there is a brain. As the baby gathers experiences from his environment and interactions with people, and as his brain develops further, he develops a subconscious, thought process, and thinking pattern. All these are entirely from his experiences and interactions. When he's hungry he knows food comes when he cries. On the other hand if experience had thought him nothing happened when he's hungry and cries, his thinking will stop linking crying with arrival of food.
So your thoughts come from your subconscious, experiences, interactions, and your type of brain, and to some extent, wholistically from all cells of your body and "cell memory".
Is that your definition of spiritual?

you know i find it hard to relate thought of the mind with the spiritual that's why i declined responding to those questions.
I needed him to draw his conclusions from practical human experiences

NNTR:
Of course, Ephesians 6:12 is talking of behind-the-scene cloak-and-dagger, as it were, influencers
If you know, you know, if you dont know, time will snitch

Believing that influencers dont exist is the
One of the greatest tricks, the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world the Devil and extra terrestrial beings aka spirits dont exist,


Kk, lets test your statement above with these questions:

1. '... those who had authorities and were empowered by the government, of that time to persecute these Christians, hence Paul described them as principalities and powers in that scripture' are they made of flesh and blood or are not made of flesh and blood?
2. What to the best of your understanding does the noun '... flesh and blood' mean?


In an encouraged environment, believers, us (i.e. today believers and equally today Christians)




The word spiritual is an adjective, while the word spirit is a noun. The differences are glaring

1 Corinthians 4:15
For even if you had ten thousand others to teach you about Christ, you have only one spiritual father.
For I became your father in Christ Jesus when I preached the Good News to you.

Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, popularly are known as the three fathers of philosophy, with Orunmila in his own right, the Yoruba father of wisdom

Now, in terms spiritual matter (i.e. abstract, metaphysics et cetera), anyone could be someone's spiritual father, this so simply from the fact of having hands and input to the foundational development of that person(s). Case in point, you and your alleged spiritual father

1 John 4:4
But you belong to God, my dear children.
You have already won a victory over those people,
because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world.

There exists the diabolic, however greater is He that is within us, than he in the world. We know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.

1. Where does the thought comes from, that lets a driver get behind the steering wheel of car and set off to drive the car whilst under the influence of above the legal limit alcohol consumption?
2. Where does the thought comes from, when a 'pedalfile' gets excited and sexually aroused at children?
3. Where does the thought comes from, when depression or anxiety-related people, not minding permanent brain damage risks, get high on taking illicit or hard substances?
4. Where does the thought comes from, when a person be sexually unfaithful to his/her partner?
5. Where does the thought comes from when paistors et cetera pefect the art of hoodwinking, deceiving, misleading others?
6. Whats the origin of those thoughts influencing in #1 - #5?

1. Define destiny then to the best of your understanding
2. Now define fate to the best of your understanding

As a believer, you are expected to control the physical, control starting with yourself, conquer and control your flesh, else you become easy picking prey for predators

I read your comment, its you not reading my section by section responses to your comment(s)

Never mind Russia's day of reckoning will come to pass

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

does spirits controls whether a student will pass his examination or the physical?
I mean, if a student fails to read his books but keeps praying and fast to pass his exams will he pass?

NNTR:
Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents],
but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this [present] darkness,
against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) places.

In relation to the 'Do Spirits Control The Physical?' thread heading explicitly asked question (i.e. which, yes, already they can control the physical, whether be humans or animals, was given as reply), whats the point here you're trying to make please?

the Ephesians 6:12 you quoted isn't talking about anything spirits.
Stereotypically,especially people of third world countries like Africa who believed so much in the existence of juju,fairytales, witchcraft and so on, we usually misinterprete and quote the scripture to fight evil spirits whom we perceived to be responsible for our misfortunes in life. And these spirits do not truly exist in the real sense if we take time to analyse the cause of our problems,

Please follow the story, Ephesians 6:12 was strictly addressing issues the early Christian church were facing at that time.
These issues were disunty among members of the church and persecution by unbelievers especially those who had authorities and were empowered by the government of that time to persecute these Christians, hence Paul described them as principalities and powers in that scripture.
Rember also, Saul(Paul himself) was empowered to persecute Christians until he repented.
So, when the scripture says we wrestle not against flesh and blood, against principalities and rulers of high places..
As a matter of fact, the "WE" there is not us(today Christians).
It was early biblical Christians. who truly suffered the persecution

Yes, it is true that persecution was a spiritual battle that's why the scripture says the wrestle was not against flesh and blood. But it does not necessarily mean that they were fighting with spirits.
The persecutors or Antichrists involved were mere humans.
Paul who persecuted Christians before he repented was a mere human, he wasn't a spirit.

In general, the word spiritual does not necessarily mean spirit.
For instance, Pastor Adeboye is my spiritual father does not mean that I have a father who is spirit, because pastor Adeboye can never be a spirit. It simply means Pastor Adeboye is my father in the religion because he knows more than me.

So we Africans, let's cast away this idea of spirits, demons, witchcraft, juju when we relate these kind of scriptures with our personal problems, such things do not exist.

The truth is, our destiny is in our hands.
We control the physical

Very wrong summation you make here, because what everyone will be doing on the day of judgment, is give account. For on the day of judgment ne will have to give an accounting for every careless word they spoke or useless word they typed. For by your words (i.e. reflecting your spiritual state of heart and condition) you will be justified and acquitted of the guilt of sin and by your words, be condemned and sentenced.

you are not reading my statement.
I said whether God will judge later or not.

I'm not talking about the day God will judge which may be later.
I'm talking about at the present, for instance when a powerful nation invades a less powerful one.
We all witnessed since Russia had invaded Ukraine for example, nothing truly happened.
The same thing, if a lion attacks and kills antelope in the wild, nothing happens to the lion.
It is natural.

Reports indicate that Manchester United is considering the dismissal of Erik ten Hag if he fails to reverse the team’s current poor form.

According to former Arsenal legend Paul Merson, the Manchester United board is likely to part ways with manager Erik ten Hag if the team experiences defeats in their upcoming three fixtures. The Red Devils are set to face Chelsea at Old Trafford in a crucial Premier League match on Wednesday, aiming to bounce back after a recent 1-0 loss to Newcastle.

Currently, Ten Hag’s squad is trailing by 9 points in the league and occupies the bottom position in their Champions League group. Merson expressed his views, stating, “If they lose to Chelsea, Bournemouth, and Bayern, I don’t see how Ten Hag keeps his job. I do think they’ll beat Bournemouth, however, and they could do well against a Bayern Munich side that has already qualified for the Round of 16,” as reported by Sportskeeda.


https://gossipinfo.com.ng/manchester-united-is-poised-to-dismiss-erik-ten-hag-if-they-suffer-defeats-in-the-upcoming-three-matches

MaxInDHouse:
You claim to believe in God's word just as i also believe so after reading what the scriptures has to say what is your conclusion on the survival of the deadliest killers now?
Are you still of the opinion that God planned it that way?

ofcourse yes!

Answer me first i believe it shouldn't take you more than just a sentence!

I have answered you.
I still believe that survival of the fittest is part of God's plan.

When you asked if i believe in the bible, i gave you my answer, yes!

Now, i have asked two questions,
I need my answers

MaxInDHouse:
Please i hate hypocritical dodging of truth so if we are discussing about truth found in God's word let's agree on one thing before moving to another.
Are you now convinced that the survival of the deadliest killers shouldn't be the portion of the children of God or you're still in doubt?

Let's settle that first before we move to another topic, that's why i asked you first:

I asked those two questions concerning what you raised in your last statement on what we want to settle.
They are still parts of the things we want to settle.
So, please don't dodge the questions

I have read some of your articles that teaches that you people are going to live forever in paradise, is that the answer to the first question i asked?

It's not difficult to say yes or no confidently, except you are not sure of what your organization teaches

NNTR:




Genesis 3:17
Then to Adam the LORD God said,
“Because you have listened [attentively] to the voice of your wife,
and have eaten [fruit] from the tree about which I commanded you, saying,
‘You shall not eat of it’;
The ground is [now] under a curse because of you;. (i.e. because of you, meaning, Adam)
In sorrow and toil you shall eat [the fruit] of it All the days of your life.

Before the crashing down fall from grace to grass, God preemptively had in His infinite, omniscient and know-all-ends-of-everything-from-their-very-beginning wisdom, mandated man (i.e. human beings) to subdue the earth (i.e. the operative subdue, means, bring the earth under control by force)

And you will agree that part of the subdue requires humans to slaughter animals at will, which is never illegal.
This is also survival.

And come to think of it, hunting animals isn't that easy job.
It is equivalent to war!

So when jws are saying war is bad.
Not all wars are bad.
Infact, God had instructed the Israelites to invade the Amorites and the Amalekites in the old testament, it is still survival, the bible is not against it.

Legacy of Genesis 3:17

Exactly

The Kingdom of God doesnt approve of such behaviours towards each other (e.g. domination, invasion, bullying, terrorising et cetera)

very true!

But however, if the powerful nation is powerful enough to defend itself after bullying a smaller nation, what will the smaller nation do?
If a lion dominates antelope, what will the antelope do?
If an elder brother bullies his younger brother because of a plate of rice, what will the younger brother do?

There are certain things God will allow because they will always happen naturally
Whether he will later judge or not, they have happened and there is nothing anyone can do.

Acts 13:22
But God removed Saul and replaced him with David, a man about whom God said,
‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after My own heart.
He will do everything I want him to do.’

David from the OT, could explain off, whatever excesses or line crossing he might have committed, and still remain in right standing with God.

The phrase '... a man after My own heart' in Acts 13:22 above, said in relation to David, is about, God saying, He has found in David someone who has similar values, interests or beliefs as His. It points to an existence of a mutual a connection between both of them

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

very true

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted is enough!
Now let's talk about "Natural laws"
The only purpose for which God created earth is for all the creatures to bring Him praise as long as the planet exist {Revelations 4:11} so saying the chaos and abnormalities happening regarding animals hunting one another for food is against God's will because God promised that when His kingdom begin ruling no creature will hunt another:

"The wolf and the lamb will feed together, The lion will eat straw just like the bull, And the serpent’s food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah. Isaiah 65:25

When God asked Noah to build an Ark to save all the animals on dry land nobody can say the animals were hunting one another inside the Ark otherwise the flesh eaters we know today can't survive with straws.

So let's get it straight: the situation we found ourselves today is totally against God's plan therefore as God's children we are to put on the personality which was created in line with God's will! Ephesians 4:22-24

If we are God's children survival of the most deadliest killers shouldn't be our portion! Matthew 26:52

Jesus our Master Lord and King is the Prince of Peace {Isaiah 9:6} so as disciples of Christ who are representing him {Act 1:8} how are we going to stand out {Matthew 5:14-16} if we are also killers like those under the control of Satan? John 8:44

two questions for you :

1.Do your organization believe that when his kingdom begin ruling, his elects will live forever?
2. Are the pictures below photographed during Noah days or during when his kingdom begin ruling ?

Straight answers please

MaxInDHouse:
Before i answer your question do you believe in the Bible?

ofcourse yes!
And i also know that the bible isn't against natural events like struggling for survival.
There are no living thing that does not struggle for survival.
When you see lion chasing Antelope on screen, that is struggling for survival.
It is a war between the lion and the Antelope where the Lion needs to survive.

So, a most powerful nation like Russia will invade a less powerful nation like Ukraine, it is natural like the food chain.
If your organization is not invasive to it members, then the members are the ones invading the organization.
You have not seen a member who steels from the offering box when hungry sets in?
Ask David in the old testament
It is called strategy for survival.

There are no emotional considerations there

MaxInDHouse:
We don't believe in survival of the fittest that's totally inhumane to us so if all people are using their brains intelligently practicing what my group teaches there will be no more wars globally. That's what i'm saying.

ok

That means wisdom is limited to my group alone because all the people on this planet knows the importance of peace yet they're still going to war which means they're not making use of their brains like we do.

ok

Our group is doing the needful by impressing it in the minds of millions of our members throughout the world that it's insanity thinking you're wise when you know the value of peace but join killers when they're carrying weapons to kill and get killed just to prove their fitness!

ok, let's look at the summary of the article below, about your group scandals.

Let's say, the scam, theft, fraud and other crimes involving money.

A jw member that scammed another member according to this article, isn't that survival of the fittest such that the scammer won the battle or war, while the other jw member who is being scammed lost the war?

Please think before you answer

MaxInDHouse:
If atheists truly have the knowledge then how come they can't form an organization and make sure what affects others regarding WARS making people to kill people doesn't affect their group?

you mean, there are no members of your religious organization that were not killed in Gaza, simply because they belong to a group?

To illustrate let's say someone or some people claim they know what is causing HIV and AIDS do you think any reasonable people should believe them if HIV and AIDS is also killing members of such a group?

knowledge and wisdom isn't the same thing.

If someone in the group claims to know the cause of HIV /AIDS and he is not applying the knowledge, then he is not wise.
These things are very possible

I asked:
if everyone wants peace why so much wars? You said it's survival of the fittest.
But there has never been any fittest group whose members don't get killed during wars so what is the essence?

there is no one such group that is capable of protecting it members when the battle for the fittest arises.
The battle is usually indivualistic and irrational.
As a matter of fact, when the battle is becoming intense due to extreme shortage of resources, members of the purported group begins to cannibalize each other.

So, there is nothing like group in the real sense

NNTR:
You're shifting the goal post, and even widening it too, because the thread title and its question, if still valid is 'Do Spirits Control The Physical?'

the thread title is something that can be broadly applied to any natural occurence in our day to day lives.
Pastors performing miracles or deliverances or babalawo conducting rituals for some blood money in their shrines, are things we can possibly see in churches and African traditions respectively.
But when we ask critical questions like Do spirits control the physical? to get the right answers, it helps us not to be vulnerable to their tricks if there are any such tricks

Oh, OK, you want to have it this way now. Yeah? Tell me please
1. Where does the thought comes from, letting a driver getting behind the steering wheel of car have set off to drive the car whilst under the influence of above legal limit alcohol consumption?
2. Where does the thought comes from, letting a 'pedalfile' get excited and sexually aroused at children?
3. Where does the thought comes from, letting depression or anxiety-related people, not minding permanent brain damage risks, get high on taking illicit or hard substances?
4. Where does the thought comes from, letting a person be sexually unfaithful to his/her partner?
5. Where does the thought comes from, hoodwinking, deceiving, misleading others?

in all these, do you assume that the thoughts comes from the spirit or the mind?

Mark 11:23
I assure you and most solemnly say to you, whoever says to this mountain,
‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea!’ and does not doubt in his heart [in God’s unlimited power],
but believes that what he says is going to take place, it will be done for him [in accordance with God’s will].

then, the posing question is :
Is there evidence or proof of anyone who has ever say to a mountain, be lifted up and the mountain is lifted up?
Mention the person.
He should have a name, address and if possible a comprehensive Wikipedia profile.

All we need is just evidence that these things are real

The thing, really here, is not taking and looking at things in the right perspective. Watch this bro, miracles are the bread and butter of the kingdom. Miracles happen in every nanoseconds passing.

do you classify giving birth to a child, or digesting food or breathing air into your body system a miracle?

If you want to deliberate on the mad man in Luke 8:27-39 above, his mental case could have been as a result of a TBI (i.e. Traumatic Brain Injury), maybe due to a fall, knock or blow to head, causing a chemical imbalance in his brain and Jesus being the Original Doctor, Physician, Psychiatrist and Surgeon helped reset the chemical brain imbalance for the man, unlike for some or others, their mental illness or condition, could be down to illicit drug and alcohol abuse.

But Jesus didn't carry out any physical surgery on him.
He casted out the demon, therefore it was obviously a miracle he performed
Well, i think that miracles are usually required in certain situations especially when the situation will lead people to believe in God.
But any situation that has nothing to do with God or religion, such situations will definitely require physical remedy, example is surgery

It also instructive to note that, many of the problems we take to church for miracles require physical remedy, not spiritual remedy.
Examples are financial prosperity, protection and good health.

So if we have the vast majority of our problems that can be solved physically, it already shows that physical controls this life and not the spiritual.

Now, the social media is replete of pastors, mission houses, Samaritans, well meaning people helping former mental illness sufferers and rehabilitate them, but the thing really is that, not every cases, is a pulpit case, but rather the direction ought to be medical breakthroughs and ground breaking advancement.

Exactly, you are on point

Does anyone really think Mark 11:23 is literal. Hmm? Of course, its literal and not literal. Getting a mountain to be lifted up and thrown into the sea, is not a pulpit feat, but rather would happen through technological means (i.e. using engineering machinery and equipments)

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

you are perfectly right.
Using Engineering machinery and equipments can be used to achieve that

Onyiiobi7735:
Bla blah blah, blah.
Believe whatever you want.
Good luck.

i don't do uncertainties like good luck when it comes to getting the right information.
I do a proper research and get my information rightly. I know how this has helped me to achieve breakthroughs in my career and my personal life.

At the end, what is most important is happiness

Thanks anyway!

MaxInDHouse:
I'm sorry if this question of mine provoke you:

Can you mention any organization that has a reasonable explanation to these questions and using such explanations to benefit their members so that others can be sure they have the answers?

your first question

MaxInDHouse:
Why is it that man knowing for sure that he will die and leave everything for someone else keeps fighting and struggling to acquire it all only for him to die and nothing goes with him?

by nature, humans are hard working and resourceful people who works to pass their accumulated resources to their posterity.
Every organizations or institutions knows this principle, it is not restricted to any one organization to know

MaxInDHouse:
Why is it that everyone wants peace yet there is war everywhere?

it does not require any single organization or institution to understand that survival of the fittest postulated by Charles Darwin is real.
Humans keep fighting to control the limited available resources in the habitat

MaxInDHouse:
Why is it that despite all the promises of nice people we know dies immediately when they get the seat in authority

because they pretended to be nice in order to get to that seat.
Every organizations and institutions knows these principles

Well i know an organization of worshipers that has used what they claimed is inspired by a SPIRIT and so far so good they're making the best use of what they have.
Of course they believe the spiritual controls the physical but i have never seen any group of humans no matter how educated or intelligent that doesn't believe in the spiritual yet able to explain why these things are so!

if you have ever travel to places like Europe, you will encounter a lot of intelligent atheists who doesn't believe that the spiritual controls the physical.
They have valid explanations making them very intelligent people.
But their knowledge is only limited to the physical.
Now, if the spiritual truly controls the physical, it means that these atheists will never have knowledge of the physical just like the way they lack knowledge of the spiritual

MindHacker9009:
It does make sense as the spirit has got the person in trouble and the person then comes to their senses at that time they are caught. The problem is that if that person does not beg God Almighty everyday to guide the person from such spirits the spirit can control them again to do the same.

a better way to put :
If the person does not learn his lessons after getting into trouble, he will find himself doing the same thing again until that desire eventually destroys him.

You know, God is not mocked, whatever anyone sows, that is what he will reap?

MaxInDHouse:
Why is it that man knowing for sure that he will die and leave everything for someone else keeps fighting and struggling to acquire it all only for him to die and nothing goes with him?

Why is it that despite all the promises of nice people we know dies immediately when they get the seat in authority?

Why is it that everyone wants peace yet there is war everywhere?

there are reasonable explanations to all these questions that does not require spiritual remedy

Simply quote: the spiritual controls the physical!

The only way to break free is accurate knowledge from above otherwise you will blame those killing their neighbours but when you are given the opportunity to decide what should happen you will kill much more than those you're blaming!

hmm!

Emusan:
This is from my own personal experience, let me see what you'll call it.

It happened during my NYSC in Cross River.

I had a dream and in that dream it was Friday night/Saturday morning but in reality it was Saturday night/Sunday morning.

The dream went like this, there was a clash between the village I was and another village. The fight was so brutal that dead bodies were everywhere but the villagers took it upon themselves that nothing will happen to any Corps members as they will do everything to protect them. And I saw some of the villagers taking gun shots, marchet cut e.t.c for the corps members. Then I woke up with great fear, in the morning (which is on Saturday morning) I then narrate everything to my colleague because we stay in corpers' lodge and as I was rounding my story up, I then say if this dream is true let the Pastor confirm it tomorrow which is Sunday (we worship in the same church).

Since it's on Sunday morning in reality, as usual we prepare for church and the service went well but to my greatest surprises, in fact, we have already shared the grace and as everyone is about to be leaving I just "Please, everybody should come back nobody should go." It was Pastor calling us back. After we all came back, Pastor proceed and said, "please we need to pray and especially for our Corpers, I had a dream three times tonight and in the dream two villages were fight and blood flows." And the pastor raised some prayer points and we prayed.

I was dumbfounded because how can two people have the same dream in two different locations at the same time? Was the question that is popping on my heard and not only that, how can I say in my dream that if this dream is truly Pastor should confirm it and it happened exactly.

Note: if you know Cross River State very well, the Pastor is living in Ugep (which is the LG headquarter of Yakurr local government and I stay in another village called Idomi.

On getting home after service that day, I then told my colleagues the dream and how pastor confirmed it. All of them were in shock.

Do you know it's not up to two weeks, when fight actually broke out between two villages though not the very one I was but very close to mine and it was bloody. That Cross River State government has to send emergency security to evacuate all the NYSC members in the two villages and fortunately no corps members lost their life.

Our village received few corps members and others were moved to another place before giving them another PPA.

Then as they share their own story, we were told that it was the villagers that protect them before government rescuer came and even some of the villagers lost their lives in the process.

What do you have to say about this?

your story is realistic, it isn't fictional.
It is very possible that God had revealed the communal clash to you and the pastor for confirmation, to avoid NYSC members from becoming casualties.
But it is still not proof that spirit controls the physical as such communal crises are better controlled and avoided through communal bilateral agreements rather than some spiritual means

MindHacker9009:
Do cars control the drivers?

and i keep wondering.
How can a spirit that do not exist in reality control me that live in the real world, is that possible?

When someone commit an offense and later says na Satan work, forgive me, does that really make sense?