₦airaland Forum

JessicaRabbit:
I'm curious, this "personal encounter" you're alluding to here, can it be verifiable by anyone else? Because, you see, subjective experiences are a dime a dozen in human history. From alien abductions to near-death visions, the brain is a marvelous storyteller, often weaving narratives based on emotions and cultural influences. Just because someone feels something deeply doesn't make it objectively true, especially when it aligns perfectly with their pre-existing beliefs. Given the vastness of our universe, we obviously don't have all the answers, yet. But here's the thing: claiming vastness doesn't equate to proving the existence of something specific, like, say, a bearded sky wizard. It's like arguing a teapot orbits the sun just because we haven't explored every square inch of space. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of presence, my friend.

As for miracles? Let's be honest, the majority of them often have very earthly explanations, from misdiagnosis reversals to psychological phenomena. And testimonies? Confirmation bias is a powerful force, leading people to interpret events in a way that confirms their existing beliefs. Plus, let's not forget the countless testimonies throughout history of Zeus, Thor, and a plethora of other deities – were they all true too? You also mentioned community and purpose. Those things can be found in countless ways beyond religion! Sports teams, book clubs, volunteering etc. Oh, and synchronized chanting and burning incense haven't exactly solved world hunger yet. Morality predates religion by millennia, evolving from empathy and social cooperation. And let's not forget the countless atrocities committed in the name of faith throughout history. As for the robber, his conversion might be genuine, but attributing it solely to religion ignores the complex interplay of factors that influence individual choices. Since I've been there before, I can understand and relate to the appeal of seeking solace and comfort. But attributing it solely to faith ignores the power of human connection, self-reflection, and critical thinking. Plus, relying solely on placebos for well-being is a risky proposition.

So, to answer your question, no, I don't believe the claims presented here are inherently true. They rely on subjective experiences, logical fallacies, and selective interpretations of evidence. As an atheist, I find wonder and meaning in the vastness of the universe we can explore, guided by reason, curiosity, and a 10kg bag of salt. 😉

Thanks for your erudite and well-thought out response.
Well, since we don't know the true nature of existence, everything we know is by preponderance of circumstantial evidence (see last Thursday theory below). The only reason we believe lots of things is NOT because we have first-hand knowledge, but because a bunch of people (call them scientists if you wish) say it is so. So if a bunch of people say they have encountered a tea pot orbiting the sun, you don’t start your doubting of a bunch of people there, you should start by doubting those first bunch of people ("scientists" that told you everything you believe.
Like I said, atheists can never say they encountered God who told them he does not exist. But bunch of religionists have had personal encounters with God in various ways that confirmed to them that God exists and is anthropomorphical. If you think they could have been hallucinating, well, so could those "scientists" that told you everything you believe. If you doubt it, see Lastthursdayism below

DeepSight:
This is crap, sorry, and not worthy of a response. When you write something worthy you know I will respond.

Maybe time for QED .
There's clearly all sorts of thinking going on in a dream, and while "I" is unconscious or possessed, or even dead (as narrated by people who came back), who is doing the thinking? As with many things about existence, we don't know the true nature of thinking.
QED

SIRTee15:
Is energy physical? can it be perceived and controlled within out own realm of physical dimension?

We don't know the ultimate nature of vacuum energy, but whatever it is, we know it is possible it has always been there - especially since it is the energy in "nothing"!

DeepSight:
Any experience requires an experiencer and that is not a statement that requires proof unless you are not a serious discussant - perhaps the sort of discussant who will demand proof that breathing requires air.

As to your obsession with the sequence of the sentence - the fact that it starts with "I" - that only shows how pedantic your thinking is, Because it can easily be re-phrased as "Thinking exists, and thinking requires a thinker."

I am NOT the person who set the parameters. Descartes did in his book. He said he'd doubt anything he could remotely doubt.
Disregarding that the statement is faulty in itself,
Here's the logical sequence of events:
1) There is thinking (this we are fairly sure about)
2) Therefore there must be a thinker (we have no way of knowing this unless we claim we know the true nature of existence, which we don't! Also, the only describable attribute of the thinker is thinking - thinking is the thinker!)
3) That thinker must be "I" (obviously not true)

MaxInDHouse:
That is not faith this is what most of you need to learn but instead of humbly listening you will start arguing blindly.

Faith has nothing to do with what has happened in the past because you have no say or power or part to play in what has happened in the past rather:
faith is the assured expectation of what we hope for the evident demonstration of reality even though we have not seen it yet! Hebrews 11:1

So if you're talking about FAITH it should involve the faithful as in the part he is playing when nobody can see what he is working towards.

For instance the Wright Brothers had FAITH that it's possible for people to travel through the air and they started working towards it until it was achieved so if you want to talk about faith remember people like that who worked towards what no one has ever seen before their act of doing so is called FAITH not what has happened in the past that involves none of us living today!

You are conflating two types of faith - faith needed to achieve and faith needed to believe. It took faith for a contemporary of Lord Jesus to believe he was the Son of God, though they could see clearly he was a carpenter with neither money nor high connections

HellVictorinho6:
u dont come into by urself

coming into means to succeed and precede some other cases at once

precede YA YA YA(what happens after u come) but succeed NA NA NA(what happens b4 u come)

a case now referring to a chance of either this or that .

Bottom line, if one basic element can be self-existing, so can another. No matter how you slice and dice the language. Quantum particles appear out of " nothing" all the time, then disappear

DeepSight:
And I answered that. I even gave you an analogy of the sun, trying to show you that a thing needn't change to have consequences of its existence.



What is this for heaven sake its simple: a thought requires an experiencer no matter how you slice it or dice it.

And I showed you that your sun analogy is faulty - that an eternal unchanging self-existing sun or anything will not wake up one day and suddenly START creating

What proof do you have that a thought requires an experiencer. Describe the experiencer. In that case it can be anything: "I walk, therefore I am" since walking requires a walker". Which is why cigito starts with the assumption that "I" already exists. I will even go further and say that cogito doesn't prove that thought exists because that may actually NOT be thought. It proves that something exists but we can't be sure what it is exactly

FRANCISTOWN:
I've not read your main post, but this kinda caught my attention.

Since you decided to play the devil's advocate, we might be looking at a very long thread ahead of us.

I've said it countless times on this forum that none of the supposed god characters fit into what can be called a God. Especially the anthropomorphic stance.
I think that was my first thread when I came back to NL, that it's impossible for Yahweh and Allah to be omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent or omnipresent.
Just the book of Genesis and those attributes were effortlessly refuted.

If you got less busy, you can check the link down here.

https://www.nairaland.com/7593172/eternal-synagogue-civilized-atheist-movement#121402054

When I have time I'll read the thread you referenced.
But what do you say to the overwhelming, preponderance of circumstantial evidence that someone or something set this up? And the countless personal encounters of a higher power that so many people have had through the ages?

DeepSight:
You didnt explain jack. I just got tired.

I did. Here again:
1) There is no reason why a self-existing, unchanging will suddenly CHANGE and start creating unless compelled by a something outside itself or a change within itself

2) Cigito being faulty is rather self-explanatory

DeepSight:
I already explained to Lordreed in the other thread you created and you were following. So I neednt repeat myself.
There is logic enough to infer the existence of God.

However it is not just logic. I have long described myself as a rational and intuitive deist.
So, beyond logic, there is also intuition.

And I patiently explained to you why your logic is flawed, just as I explained why cogito is flawed. I thought those are amicably settled issues

*Politeness*
This Gowon is ageless. Consider that Ojukwu who was older than him died eons ago

isan:
That boy in slum is also based on something, like working hard or going to school to land a life changing job ...

Nope, based on nothing observable in the present circumstances - that is pure faith. Being 100% sure of something for no reason. Just like a miracle is NOT based on logic

Image123:
i did not actually say that, i referred to your worship of logic. There are many ways into Lagos.

So are you reverting to religion being logical? If so, how? Note that I said it is OK to believe the universe was spoken into existence some 6000 years ago because it says so in the Bible, just don't say it is logical

isan:
Pure faith is when a pastor tell his followers he he drank tea with God and they all believed him .... I personally think it's just delusional

How can that be pure faith when it is based on something? Pure faith is a boy in the slum with no money for food or school being certain he'll one day be a millionaire

Aemmyjah:
PoliteActivist
God is acknowledged or referenced as the Cause or Creator of all things
Atheists say all things came into existence by itself without any cause

How's that possible?
That's the major foundation of such arguments
Thank you

Well, atheists reply that if God can come into existence by himself, so can vacuum energy which gave rise to big bang and the universe

MaxInDHouse:
This is exactly what i often tell you guys, the way you've been indoctrinated in false religions makes you think the highlighted is how to define faith whereas you're wrong.
That has nothing to do with REAL faith!

So tell us how you define faith. By faith one can believe an entity spoke the universe into existence some 6000 years ago. It is NOT at all wrong to believe so, but tell us how it is logical

Aemmyjah:
You're wrong
The idea that the universe was created some 6000 years ago is false and misleading

Ok, you don’t believe the Bible. So how long ago do you think the universe was created? And was it spoken into existence?

Aemmyjah:
If I give you a cheque of 1 million naira, you have not seen the 1 million naira but you are sure you will get it as that cheque is the evidence
I don't have a wire connection from my phone to anywhere but I am sure that I can call someone in another part of the globe. That is made possible by radio waves.
These are examples of faith

God did not just say something. He created all things. Have you seen a contractor that built a house without saying something?
Science tells us that the universe has a beginning. The universe cannot be its own cause
Critical thinking

Lol, I'm sure you can do better than this. Cheques have nothing to do with faith. Cheques have abundant precedents - they are cashed everyday and have been for a long time. Pure faith is based on nothing - yet there is 100% certitude.

Created the universe by speaking it into existence. Isn't that your position? If not, how?
Science also tell us the universe began from vacuum energy, which can be its own cause

DeepSight:
The seer still has faith in what he beholds. Without that, he would dismiss the dream as a dream.

Point is, the seer sees something. That something is the basis of his belief. Pure faith is seeing nothing at all, yet being 100% sure

Image123:
Is life arrived at logically? Who makes logic superior and who defines logic? Is it logical for the many 1st class graduates to be jobless or slave away for people with lesser or no degrees? This logic worship ehn, i no think say e follow.

So we at least arrive at one agreement: Religion is NOT logical
Though some religionists are still debating that it is

Aemmyjah:
To illustrate
It's like a Chelsea fan referring a champions league final game against Manchester united

Like the OP, your comments are unfittig

In this my umpire role I'm nobody's fan at all. I am simply playing devil's advocate for both sides.
By the end, if am a good umpire, both sides will see me as biased against them!
I don't know how you can say it is logical to say an entity says something and it happens - and that's how the universe was created some 6000 years ago. It is NOT wrong to believe so, but saying it is logical is another issue altogether!

DeepSight:
There are levels to logic.

A seer who sees the future in his dreams can hope for a thing invisible to you, and yet not be illogical.

A seer SEES something. Faith doesn't require you see anything. It is being SURE your incurable cancer will soon be cured. It is placebo effect. It is NOT meant to be logical!

DeepSight:
I dont think its fair to characterize all people of faith as believing in voodoo or magic as the bold tends to suggest. Many people of faith believe that their God will hold them by the hand from A through B, C, D, E, all the way, step by step through to Z.

It is not voodoo AT ALL! It is the essence of faith!
In Hebrews 11 St. Paul says "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see".
How is being SURE of what you hope for logical? How is it logical to believe an entity can say something and it happens just like that - and that's how the universe was created? Faith is not, and doesn't claim to be, logical

DeepSight:
I am not an atheist either. God exists, but is unknowable.

Soo, what led you to the position that God exists? Or are we to just take your word for it?

Aemmyjah:
You're the atheists
Cunningly trying to create this thread
Atheists have nothing meaningful to teach
Just doubt nd confusion to enforce on others or subtly try to make them to adopt
Faith is not, was not and will never be illogical
Atheism is the definition of illogism

Au contraire, I am the umpire, playing devil's advocate for both sides.

Are you sure you are not your religion mainly because it is something you were born into? Are you sure if you were born in Saudi Arabia you won't be a moslem? What logical steps led you to your religion?
Speaking of which, "logical" is: from A you have to go through B to get to C. Faith is from A you can get to Z without the intervening steps of B, C, D, etc.

DeepSight, HellVictorinho6, FxMasterz, maynman, Dtruthspeaker, Image123, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022
Seun, HopefulLandlord, LordReed, Jaephoenix
Knownunknown, TheSourcerer. Busybrain2233
1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack, Botragelad, Fourthpredator, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn
SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke
EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001 SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist
FRANCISTOWN

MaxInDHouse:
Nothing is logical if you think faith is illogical but that's for another day.
If you want to debate atheists go ahead don't bring me into your fight with them!

Dtruthspeaker:
Meanwhile, faith is not illogical but stupid people have not figured it out hence why the bible Said they are blind

I guess we have to define "logical". Logical is scientific. It is from A you have to go through B to get to C. Faith is from A you can get to Z without the intervening steps of B, C, D, etc. Faith is also if A=1, and B=2, A+B can equal 44.

I'll be the umpire, playing devil's advocate for both sides.

DeepSight, HellVictorinho6, FxMasterz, maynman, Image123, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022
Seun, HopefulLandlord, LordReed, Jaephoenix
Knownunknown, TheSourcerer. Busybrain2233
1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack, Botragelad, Fourthpredator, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn
SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke
EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001 SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist
FRANCISTOWN

DeepSight:
Please don't cite me as a religionist for I subscribe to no religion.

OK. Corrected (see below). Still, defend your position on God. Is it something you arrived at logically, or is it due to personal experience, or just something you were born into, or just something you choose to believe?

DeepSight, HellVictorinho6, FxMasterz, maynman, Dtruthspeaker, Image123, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022
Seun, HopefulLandlord, LordReed, Jaephoenix
Knownunknown, TheSourcerer. Busybrain2233
1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack, Botragelad, Fourthpredator, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn
SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke
EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001 SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist
FRANCISTOWN

HellVictorinho6:
HEAR from xyz that he DOESNT EXIST?


oh itz cosmic grammar

so we can as well write on water


we COULD .....be in a....yet u say xyz FIGURED OUT?

Still cosmic incantations

Then the grouping of nairalanders ..... I dont feel special in either category.


Can u ask ur subordinates 2 send me anything now

Oh, about sending you money, my subordinates say they are inundated - too many people who have nothing to eat, talkless of having data to be on Nairaland.
Some people believe God exists and some people don't. Which category are you under and why?

MaxInDHouse:
I don't debate atheist they don't believe in true logic faith is logical as you can't see anything done under the sun without faith.
So remove my name because atheists know me that i always present logical reasoning they can never refute!

I'll remove your name. But faith is illogical and is meant to be illogical. If you don't know that then you don't understand what is faith. What do you think is meant by evidence of things not seen nor felt?
Also if you are intellectually honest for once, you'd acknowledge there's something funny about creating someone, giving them a certain type of brain, knowing in advance they'll disobey you, THEN when they use the brain to disobey you, you don’t punish them temporarily so they'll learn a lesson and not try such again...

Maynthemayn:
Only the mind can be hypnotized.

Religionist are people that believe in what they lack knowledge on, even Paul or is it Saul, called religion, superstitions. Acts 17:22.

What do you mean?
Only the mind needs to be hypnotized/controlled

BBIA:
Just like I believe that Destiny and Coincidence cannot coexist.

it must be only one or the other.



last last if destiny exists over coincidence, we have no freewill and God the use us play koso.

Aahh, but then you are forgetting something...
Quantum mechanics!

*Politeness*

INTRO

I'll be the umpire, playing devil's advocate for both sides.

Religionists' and Atheists' beliefs are NOT based on logic, therefore trying to talk them out of their beliefs through logic or reasoning is a futile exercise.
A change in them can only start through direct personal experience (as can be be seen in these shorts videos below).

To Religionists:
I watched a TV episode where a seven year old boy had supernatural power to punish people who disobeyed his rules or behaved badly. Soon everybody was behaving properly and obeying his rules. Mind you, he couldn't even read their minds. So Atheists will always use this against you, and you can't give them any satisfactory answer. Then there is their old standby: if God can be self-existing, why can't the universe or vacuum energy that gave rise to the universe be also self-existing?
They'd also ask you if you truly believe the universe is only about 6000 years old.

To Atheists:
Yours is even worse. A religionist can say they had a personal encounter with God. You can't say you heard from God that he doesn't exist! They'll also point out to you that we humans know almost nothing about the true nature of existence. That we are even worse than Einstein's little child in a library - and are therefore in no position to be saying anything doesn't exist, talkless of God!
They'll also point to all the countless miracles through the ages, and all the testimonies - so they are ALL lies, totally made up? They'll also point to the community and ritual available in religion that you can't find in atheism. Also the morality - maybe your potential robber was converted on his way to rob you and is instead in church! They'll also point to the supernatural companionship and placebo effect that comes with faith, not possible with atheism.

To both:
As you can see from videos on hypnosis, we could all be under some sort of cosmic hypnosis or mind control and not know it - we would swear we are acting out of free will. But only ALMOST all of us would be fooled. The best geniuses amongst us would somehow be able to figure out we are under some sort of mind control - which they did! Einstein figured out that freewill is an illusion; while our other geniuses say we are very likely in some sort of a simulation!

https://youtube.com/shorts/WLM9roC5lJg?si=LE2K2klgbGCR8xPn

https://youtube.com/shorts/1W1-KBRY0e8?si=JOGIxtEj-gQpeNw_

https://youtube.com/shorts/ed_Nl_MimYY?si=412kQUnA43FEBt3J

DeepSight, HellVictorinho6, FxMasterz, maynman, Dtruthspeaker, Image123, DrJones109, Jesusjnr2022
Seun, HopefulLandlord, LordReed, Jaephoenix
Knownunknown, TheSourcerer. Busybrain2233
1Sharon, TakeNigeriaBack, Botragelad, Fourthpredator, Lorrayne, HardMirror, Hahn
SlawG, albreezy4eva, Muslim, Dominique, Mrbroke
EnemyofGod2, kkins25, Wilgrea7, A001 SIXFEETUNDER, OkpaNsukkaisBae, Bacteriologist
FRANCISTOWN, nlfpmod, OAM4J