₦airaland Forum

Image123:
And facebook is not on the internet? Or are you saying pictures would convince you? Is Jo not a ce member? Don't they put pictures of 'miracles/testimonies' on their magazines? Do you believe them? If you really want to investigate, call the person, organise to meet him/them. Ask for medicals, neighbours report and whatever detail. Then come and start making all the claims you want, depending on what you got after credible investigation or keep quiet and stop the witch hunt.
Till then, you're just all words no action. The exact thing you've accused Jo of. Any sane christian knows that unbelief is not righteousness

Hello image,
I initially didn't want to comment on this thread but now I'm tempted to. You see, I really don't blame @Earswide or @dare2think for not wanting to call the number posted by Jo, I've tried it once and ended up being labeled a liar by Jo.

He had claimed to cure a lady of total blindness and then gave her number for me to verify; when I called the lady, the story changed, she said she was not blind but was having a peppery sensation in her eyes that made her unable to open it for long. She even told me she did not recover in Jo's church but after she had left. I called Jo back and told him what the lady told me, he called her back and then called me again to say the lady said I lied. When I called the lady a second time, she became hostile and wouldn't talk to me.

Well, the only mistake I made was not recording that call, this whole matter would have been laid to rest; but now its my word against Jo's as such I choose to keep mute till the appointed time.

Joagbaje:
He has always said it is possible to have such a miracle . God can make anything happen. But it didn't happen in our ministry. Besides he never granted interview to the press.

He granted an interview to 'National Standard' a magazine owned by one of your partners, is that not a media interview? Haba Jo, I respect you pass dis one o.
I'll see if I can pull out that interview so you clearly see what I'm trying to say.

Joagbaje:
There you guys go with the lies . There was never an Incidence like that in CEC. it was fabricated by the enemy.Satan creates a story, and his children spread it. Every body that carry that story can not boast of witnessing such incidence either on a crusade ground with pastor chris or on Tv. Its from hearsay. But The church is marching on .

If I rememner well, in his first media interview, Chris never denied the story, what he did was try to explain it.

Pastor AIO:
Joe is right, it pre-existed the law.  In fact the first accounts of it suggests that it was a pagan practice done by the Babylonians.  Abram was a Babylonian (not quite) or rather Urr of the Chaldees was not far from babylon so would have shared many cultural similarities so Abram would probably do what was simply in his culture to do.  When he meets a king, like a good mesopotamian he will give a tenth of what he has gained to the king.
http://www.answers.com/topic/tithe#The_Esretu_.E2.80.94_the_standard_Babylonian_one-tenth_tax

^^^@Pastor AIO, of course I know hes right and I only wanted him to give the examples so we can start from there at least to show him that Abrams tithe was not based on any divine principle or instruction. He's at liberty to contest that.

Joagbaje:
Tithing was part of the law. But it didn't originate under the mosaic law. It pre existed the law

Sir, do you mind showing us examples from scriptures??

hmm! No be small thing o

igbsam:
Are there hospitals or good doctors that can cure keloid in Nigeria ? Anyone with information should please drop it here.

Keloid treatment is basically the same thing most places in Nigeria i.e local steroid injections and silicon based creams. However, I will recommend iris medical foundation. but be warned, Prof. can be very expensive

mabell:
@EarsWide,
are you Sirjohn

^^^@mabell, you must think that every other person is a coward and two faced like (some of) you. For your information we do not all have multiple ID's like you. I have been posting on NL since 2007 and have never used any ID besides SirJohn.

By the way Jo, nice thread

nuclearboy:
^^ What Bible?

Dude gets all his "understanding" from the "rap of errors"

Naah! I doubt if the guy attends CE, his views on tithing differs from Jo's, a divided camp I'll say

Snowwy:
However, when I asked you a question on this you ran to an internet page and cut and paste someones interpretation. You have no personal conviction on it therefore.

Isn't it obvious the kind of fellow we're dealing with here. . . oh so you saw my post heh! You're simply making very lame excuses, how typical!!
personal convictions?? yeah I'm bold to say my personal convictions were formed from learning, I learn from different sources; even great books reference other books. so you mean to tell us that all your convictions were formed from just reading the bible alone huh!
All hail snowwy the all knowing

Joagbaje:
Trying to analyse tithing according to mosaic law doesn't make sense. If tithing preceded the law, why using regulations under the law to determine christian tithing.

Thats because your friend snowwy tried to link modern day tithing with the law of tithing (read his posts), I responded to that and he ran away.
secondly Jo, the two examples of pre-mosaic tithing recorded in the bible was not done based on any divine commandment. Jacob promised to give God a tenth 'if' God blessed him (no record if he ever gave it) Abram gave a tenth of the spoils of war (not of what he owned) to Melchizedek, both were not recorded to have continued the practice.
You know all this Jo, we need not flog this issue further.

Joagbaje:
Was melchizededk a levite? You don't judge christian deed by the standard of the law.

Your point exactly? ?

Snowwy:
Thanks sirjohn,
for pasting the response of another author's interpretation.
Cheers.

You need not state the obvious my friend, I even put the source there for you. You needed an answer, I have provided one, address the issue and stop running around circles.

Happy reading:

1 Cor 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Paul is clearly speaking to the brethren about receiving from them for his efforts in doing God's work. Many say this is speaking about tithing, but that Paul didn't want to hinder God's work by correcting the brethren about not giving to the ministry. Would teaching and correcting the Corinthians about tithing,  if it were God's law, be hindering God's work? I think not. The very context of these scriptures doesn't speak about not placing pressure on them to "tithe" but that God expects the church to support the gospel. "Ordained" isn't the best word to use here as the Interlinear Bible shows,

Ordained = NT:1299 diatasso (dee-at-as'-so); from NT:1223 and NT:5021; to arrange thoroughly, i.e. (specially) institute, prescribe, etc.: - appoint, command, give, (set in) order, ordain.

Paul states,  "Do you not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?"

Some say this is clearly referring to tithing, and this is true, but Paul goes on to contrast THAT with "living of the gospel." Wouldn't a tithing law be part of such a gospel? Why would Paul make such a contrast? The temple sacrifices were no longer necessary and Paul knew this. He used the reference to tithes and temple duties as one picture, then speaks about "living of the gospel" as another,  in other words, living of the NEW Testament gospel that directly addresses giving and providing for God's work.

If there ever was a time that Paul could have directly addressed tithing, this is it, yet he speaks of God supporting the work of the church through those things given FOR that work.

Some scriptures are quoted as a direct reference to tithing,  "power over you" in 1 Cor 9:12 doesn't necessarily mean law or command:

Power = NT:1849 = exousia (ex-oo-see'-ah); from NT:1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: KJV - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

There are various ways to interpret this scripture, and the very first is "privilege," which is exactly what Paul is referring to. Notice Paul states that they did not use this "privilege", or "subjective force" so as to not burden them. Subjective means it was his choice to make to ask for support that should have been given willingly.

Paul spoke of no other church providing him support but the Philippians alone. He chided and corrected the Corinthians on virtually every other issue, so would he let slide not giving "commanded" tithes especially if it hindered the work of the Gospel?

Some claim he didn't so as to not put a "burden" on them. This would be making Paul the judge of what is God's law and what could be broken. Paul's character was NOT to back down from God's law, in this case, supposedly tithing, but wasn't willing to place a big burden on the Corinthians.

Notice 1 Cor 9:18: "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel."

How can we say that Paul is speaking about tithing here? He's plainly talking about doing his work of preaching the gospel without charging the Corinthians with supporting him. He didn't want to abuse the privilege to be supported by them. In other words, demanding and putting pressure on them that they cough up money to support him. Paul was much more converted than that.

Their "giving" spirit wasn't real spiritual as yet. Paul wouldn't call God's law a burden, even one part of it. The burden is men's traditions that extract various forms of finances, tithing being one taught under the guise of God's command. Paul trusted God to supply his needs, and God did.

Notice 1 Cor 9:19: "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant to all, that I might gain the more."

Paul clearly is continuing the context of giving and how he has accepted being the "servant" to the point of not receiving financial or other support from them. Look at all that Paul corrected the Corinthians on,

1 Cor 3:3 For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

1 Cor 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

1 Cor 4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.

1 Cor 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Cor 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know you not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

1 Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

1 Cor 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

1 Cor 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

1 Cor 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because you go to law one with another.

1 Cor 6:8 Nay, you do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

After all this correction, on some pretty meaty issues, are we to believe that Paul suddenly became concerned that he might "burden" the Corinthians by correcting them on the issue of tithing? What happened to the blessings many point to in Malachi for "tithing?" Paul would certainly have reminded them about tithing blessings and NOT called it a burden.

The whole 9th chapter is on the subject of supporting Paul and the other apostles for their efforts in the Gospel. Paul actually DOES correct them about their un-giving attitudes, yet he mentions nothing about breaking God's law or any other aspect of a "commanded" tithe that they were breaking.

Philippians 4 further bears this context out:

Phil 4:10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein you were also careful, but youlacked opportunity.

If tithing were commanded and an ongoing practice, then why would the Philippians "lack opportunity" to give to the work of the ministry? With all the church areas Paul traveled to, he certainly wouldn't have lacked funds if tithing were being practiced.

Phil 4:14 Notwithstanding you have well done, that you did communicate (be partaker) with my affliction. 15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated (NT:2841 = to share with others (objectively or subjectively): - communicate, distribute, be partaker). . . with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only.

Again, giving and receiving is the issue, and Paul is stating that the Philippians were the only ones that did anything toward providing for Paul's needs up to that point,

:16 For even in Thessalonica you sent once and again to my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God.

Paul clearly distinguishes the fact that the giving they did was to his necessity, but that it wasn't because he wanted a gift, but that their free willed giving which came from their hearts would please God and be a spiritual blessing to them. Paul wouldn't call what was commanded by God, a "gift" or treat it as such. A gift clearly implies free will giving.

Lastly, in 2 Cor 11:7 Have I committed an offense in abasing myself that you might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service. 9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so will I keep myself,  (Paul will keep,  pay for and support, himself).

Wages = NT:3800 - opsonion (op-so'-nee-on); neuter of a presumed derivative of the same as NT:3795; rations for a soldier, i.e. (by extension) his stipend or pay:

Paul again is speaking about giving, not tithing. A wage is NOT a tithe. He speaks of preaching the gospel "freely." He mentions "robbing" other church areas so he could continue to do God's work in Corinth. He took nothing from them, even when he was in need, but was supplied by others in Macedonia. He certainly wouldn't have been "robbing" anyone if this were tithes he was referring to. Using the word "robbed" was to prick their conscience for their not being generous and supportive of God's work whereas others were.

Paul didn't want to be a burden to them. How can we conclude that tithing is an issue here? He wouldn't have hammered them on all those other spiritual points and then suddenly cower from mentioning tithing if it were a law they were breaking. The law they were breaking was in greed, or being ungenerous, which speaks of their carnality that he mentioned throughout.

I understand how these scriptures could be used to try to point to tithing, but this is just presumption based on the belief that tithing is a law. There is no real evidence in any of these scriptures that could override all the counter evidence pointing away from tithing as a commanded law, and toward giving and sharing as the spirit of the law.

http://godkind.org/tithing.html

Snowwy:
@Sirjohn,
Maybe because even though Paul worked, he still quoted the scripture below:

I Corinthians 9:11-12
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather?

Doesn't that tell you he couldn't have been talking about tithes, can you point out where Paul received a specified percentage from any church or persons? ? ? If you cannot, don't you think your theology is flawed regarding tithing? ?

@snowwy,
The old testament levites and priests did not own lands neither did they work, they received tithes of the people based on this. Your modern day pastors are a sharp contrast to this, they work, own and run mega businesses yet demand for 'right of support'.
Any justification for this?

debosky:
@ Snowwy

Thanks for the response. To clarify, nowhere was the 'right to support' equivalent to tithe? Right?

Again, let's refrain from mixing things up - the reason the Levites received tithe was because they had no land/inheritance. Only a 'tithe of the tithe' went to the priests.

If we are to follow this example to facilitate the preachers to do their work, that would amount to 1% and not 10% would it not?

As for King Hezekiah, of course he didn't need to tell the people to tithe - the law as passsed down from Moses was clearly in operation, so there was no need for another instruction to be given.

Living off the gospel has little or nothing to do with tithe - Jesus did not collect tithe though he received gifts from others. Paul did not collect tithes - people gave to support his ministry, but never in an enforced compliance to any OT percentage.

Besides, the tithe was always food, except where the folk in the OT were too far away to take it, so how can this ever relate to today's practice of tithe? Secondly, we all know that we are a kingdom of priests - if we are all priests, who is paying tithe to who?

To surmise - there is no such thing as the tithe of support - the support received by Paul was from donations freely given, not a mandated percentage of income.

Ministers of the gospel should be supported, but DO NOT NEED TO TWIST BIBLICAL TEACHINGS in order to receive support.

Paul was supported, the people of Macedonia gave freely[b] without[/b] requiring some twisting of OT teachings to get them to give.

It is against the clear example set in the bible to now try to force in tithe under the pretext of providing support. If Jesus, Paul and the apostles never required tithing in order to support themselves in ministry, why should anyone else do so today?

Well said @debosky

Paulhindo:
sir john shut up before you come under God's wrath.

I'm yet to see one civil follower of this man. . . why am I not surprised

^^^@Nuke
at least I've learnt a new alias for tithing ie 'right of support'

Paulhindo:
May God forgive those who is speakin ill against the greatest prophet in this modern world Rev Father Ejike Mbaka. Would anybody boast wit the name of God as he hav boasted wit God's name or hav anybody bein under God's divine providence as him. May God in his infinite mercy forgive you people because some people wil use their mouth to speak what wil bring them under God's judgement. Remember those who speak against Moses,Aron,Elijah e.t.c and they were destroyed by God's anger, O may God hav mercy on you. If u know the man u are talkin about how simple and humble he is. May God forgiv the person who created this tread and advice the owner of this site to delete this tread.

Why are the followers of this man so violent. . . Na wah ooo!

Snowwy:
Philippians 4:14-19

14Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.

15Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.

16For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.

17Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

18But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

19But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Yep I know you will come and say that 'tithe' wasn't mentioned explicitly but remember it was the Macedonian church that 'supported' Paul when he was speaking to the Corinthian's that he had a 'right of support' for preaching the gospel as he was 'robbing' other churches to service them.
However, I would not be amazed if you try to twist it otherwise. If do not like the word 'tithe' as I said earlier, please give 'support' to the preachers of the gospel. Feel better?

Hello! ! ! are we on the same page here? ? ? are you trying to merge tithing and willful giving? did Paul ever mention percentages whether a tenth or a fifth.
Look for something else to say my friend

Snowwy:
However, now you say it's not a crime to tithe. Fine. I have gotten a confirmation of your stance but I hope tomorrow, i would not see another post again saying 'tithing is scam'.

If you come here tomorrow brandishing Malachi 3:10 or any such bible verse that does not say the new testament christian must tithe, then I will call you a fraudster and your message a scam

Snowwy:
Hmmmmmm, just like giving is not a law. Abi, do you have a scripture to prove giving is a law? I think there are benefits or consequences of not giving.

This is what Jesus said about giving:

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

And Paul:
2 Cor. 9:6-9
Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:
  “They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
  their righteousness endures forever.”

Show me where Paul or Jesus explicitly spoke on the benefits of tithing

Snowwy:
Sir John,
You guys say that those tithing are 'mugus', 'under a curse', 'deluded'. If you are not against tithing as you say, your comments on other threads sure negate the highlighted you posted. Those against tithing are never consistent. Today they say, they have nothing against it, next day they say its fraudulent. Choose one stand.

Truely, nothing is compulsory. Everything is a choice. You chose to sin or chose to live as a Christian. You chose to pray or not but all have their consequences or benefits.
However, as I always say work and walk by faith as anything done without faith is sin.
Cheers

read my post verrrrrrrrrrry well I said "those of us against the 'law of tithing'. . . I am against tithing as a law and as preached in most modern day church circles. I was once a foundation school teacher in CE, and I taught on 'doctrines' one of the subjects under this class was tithes and offerings. Tithing in CE is compulsory and not a choice, the teaching manual even says if you don't give your tithe, God was going to get it back anyway because it belongs to him; they even use the story of the God killing the firstborn of the Egyptians for holding Israel as a warning of what God could do if you hold back your tithe.
This is nothing but manipulation that has no foundation from scriptures.
There are no consequences for not tithing, if there are please name them; there can only be if it were a law but it is not.

Joagbaje:
And I should add by asking why you and your allies get into abusive words instead of presenting cases in a civic manner.

please call up any of my use of abusive words that was not in reaction to yours, I'll gladly apologize

Joagbaje:
@Snowwy.


Thats true snowwy. and the principles of God are eternal.they transcends dispensations. if a man doesnt understand this , he will be dealing with letters than the life principles.
Lets look at Firstfruits For example, israelites gave firstfruit to commemorate their deliverance from egypt etc and show appreciation to God. Someone that may not understand the principle behind it will say "why do christians give first fruits. were they slaves in Egypt"? But the forgot that Abel was the first person to give first fruit by faith.And for a different reason. he was not a slave in Egypt either. it is the principle that counts not the petty protocols. the same thing goes for tithe.

The petty details God gave the israelites were for them. Tithing had been instituted before the law. So judging the Christian tithing by the Standard of the law is faulty. that is letters, not spirit. This things are based on principles of faith. we dont need to criticise one another here. if i believe in this principles because they work for me and you dont believe,its not a problem. there shouldnt be abuses over what another believe.

Romans 14:5-6
5 . .  Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Those who believe in tithing are convinced it's working for them . They don't have to be persecuted for it.

Thats on a lighter note Jo, but you and I know that it goes way further beyond this. Firstly, you say tithing was 'instituted' before the law, can you please provide evidence for this?
What you must understand is that none of us against the 'law of tithing' think it is a crime to tithe, we only say it is not mandatory or compulsory for the new testament christian. Anyone like Abraham or Jacob can of their own will and at their own time decide to give a tenth, a fifth or even all of what they earn to the church, a pastor or even the less privileged this is acceptable. But when folks come here and say we are thieves for not paying tithes or that we will not be blessed by God, it will definitely provoke a reaction. its always convenient for you to play victim all the time but there are countless number of times when either you or your allies have called us greedy, stingy, thieves etc because we would not bow to a lie.

Joagbaje:
There is no fraud in healing, you . What were you doing with frauds for 4 weeks? You're only grieved because they didn't allow pastor chris to pray for your loved one. I can understand your grievance . You had opportunity to ask for clarification there if anything looks funny to you. I have sent people to healing school and they came back healed. Why should I believe your report out of many thousands of testimonies.

If someone else had made the statement above I would taken it as mere ignorance but you! no

You know my story too well and you know why I cried foul. . . If you can come out here and pretend you do not know, then let God judge between us.
Clarification you say! None of you not even you pastor Joagbaje could provide clarification as to why people who could walk were put in wheelchairs and then reported to have been crippled.
You claim you have people you sent there who were healed, well I dont believe you because the only one case you asked me to verify proved you were lying. I am once more asking you to provide the four blind cases you boasted of curing, thats if you have the balls this time. I'll show the world what liar you are. and please dont give us fake numbers this time around, Chimas number was fake I hope you know that.

Joagbaje: Somebody told you, Why dont you go yourself, supposing he had lied to you or pass inacurate information. Why do you take pleasure in criticism. Focus on your own. Leave Tb joshua for Jesus , if he is fake, Jesus knows what to do , he wont last.

Even if he went there you would still not believe. I went to the healing school of CE and spent 4 weeks, came out with a revelation of fraud going on there but what did some of you say? "hes lying" "he was paid to tell the story" "he had the wrong conclusion"
The fraud is getting so big its becoming difficult to hide. . . Time will tell

mabell:
@Poster,
when you stop giving your tithe, you cut God financial flow away from your life, you break the edge God put around you and most of all you rob God

Maybe you should start by providing scriptural backing for the statement in bold

mabell:
@Poster,
when you stop giving your tithe, you cut God financial flow away from your life, you break the edge God put around you and most of all you rob God

You lie mabell and God has used folks like me to prove that your statement above is a lie from hells darkest regions.
There is no connection between anybodys finances and tithing. SIMPLE!

[quote author=petres_007 link=topic=203250.msg7978463#msg7978463 date=1300983943]SirJohn,

I was able to read about 5 pages of your thread on CEC plc healing school. Can I shoot you an email at the address on your profile??[/quote]Sure man

[quote author=Vivian. SA link=topic=622979.msg7973168#msg7973168 date=1300915239]@SirJohn
The testimony sounds incredible.But what concerns me is that against your inner man warning you of danger ahead,you still proceed.
The Holy Spirit guides as well through thoughts and signals he will impress in our spirit. I think its better to wait till you feel safe than procced.God is not a man that he might lie or change his mind.
Prov 22:3. A prudent person forsees danger and takes precaution.

Praise be to God.[/quote]You're right my dear, thank God I lived to learn my lesson

Joagbaje:
John, why were you pulling clothes and running after the danger was over? .

Pastor Joe, I think I stated the reason in my post