₦airaland Forum

maasoap:
In other words, someone can wipe out your entire family and all what he needs to do after that is to give his life to Christ? . You didn't make any sense

Giving your life to Christ doesn't exonerate you from punishment.
Get it clear.

Uthmandanfodio:
You were not maltreated, but treated in accordance with the laws of their land. It is your responsibility to find out what is prohibited or restricted. You breached their law, you paid the penalty . Ignorance is no excuse.stop whinging.

I understand U Hausas have finally decided to be doormats to Arabs but do not push that mentality to the south.

That was how they locked up your pilgrims on the mortuary during meningitis epidemic scare and your foolish imams supported the barbaric racist move as public health safety.

If the swiss authorities did what was right why did they tell him not to make the encounter public.

MindHacker9009:
After two thousand years away, on Jesus' first day back will be able to recognise Jerusalem?

Once again, Jesus isn't coming back to your rotten Jerusalem that would have been destroyed including your iPhone or android.
Jesus is bringing a new world and new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.......

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.......

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

[quote author=AntiChristian post=130250055][/quote]I hope U don't masturbate with those verses. Sick pervert.

Jesus isn't coming back as a Man my friend but as God.
He's bringing a new Jerusalem with him, the old Jerusalem will be irrelevant.

AbuTwins:
This is contrary to what i said. Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah erases sins. You should ask Allah those questions! Allah forgives sins himself. The means could be touching the black stone, performing a successful Hajj, prayer for forgiveness from a righteous Muslim, asking for forgiveness of sins yourself, etc. The belief that anyone could forgive sin apart from Allah is Kufr.

Guy we already established Allah forgives sin when u kiss or touch the stone- this depicts spiritual significance. That means the stone is a medium through which Allah forgives sin.

Don't tell me ask Allah, I don't believe in him. what we doing here is applying logic to your belief and checking its consistence.
so if Allah can forgive sin via a stone, what then is the problem if Allah decides to forgive sin through blood.

AbuTwins:
Just as there are so many instances where the evidence stem from your own Bible! Obatala, Oduduwa, Sango and other Yoruba stories are folklores, myths and legends. Whoever takes those seriously need a brain check! Oduduwa came down on a chain with palm kernel and a chicken, etc. Then they have to show us their scriptures! Who are their Prophets? What are their beliefs?

Mr Man don't go there.....
Traditionalist have sound oral tradition which is as valid as written scriptures, they also wrote down things in their own way. Don't be brainwashed by this eurocentric falsehood that you forefathers didn't write anything down.

For example, Orunmila (the most important prophet in Yoruba religion) claimed he was sent from heaven by the supreme deity with a message to mankind necessary for life and guidance. Orunmila codified his message in a literary corpus called odu ifa and this is what the Yorubas called oracle which u consult if you follow the religion.

Again talk to traditionalist and learn their belief. stop all this nairaland gist that someone fell down from the sky and broke his head kind of talk.

as per legends and myths, I will say those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Your koran has loads of folklores, legends and myths fables that makes the book a joke to say its from God.

AbuTwins:
You should ask Allah when you meet Him. Matters of the unseen are not answered by humans!

I dont need to ask any Allah to know your belief is inconsistent and illogical. If u telling me it's ok for Allah to atone for sin via a stone in Islam then why is it wrong for traditionalist to offer gin to their deity via their own sacred stones.
It's either both practices are to be considered IDOLATRY or the concept should be abandoned all together for both.
simple

AbuTwins:
So why do they give them food? Offer them sacrifice by spilling blood on them, etc?

no deity receives food from any body. do u give Allah food when u sacrifice ram on sallah day, no be una dey chop am. OR have u seen any spirit collect food chop?
The same way u sacrifice ram to your Allah is the same way they sacrifice to their deity. It's symbolic.
once again learn the difference btw occultism and religion.

AbuTwins:
Where did Allah specifically and contextually say He has daughters? Can't you guys do without telling lies?

read the satanic verses.
surah 53:19-20 as delivered by satan unto Muhammed's tongue

"Have you seen al-Lāt and al-'Uzzā and Manāt, the third, the other?, these are the high-flying cranes and their intercession is to be hoped for.'

All early Islamic sources including Al Tabari confirmed Muhammed uttered this verse and the satanic verse was universally accepted as a true event. Then Muhammed was illustrated as a prophet with his own struggles. Na later in the era of hadith collections and subsequent orthodoxy that Muhammed became an infallible prophet.

honesttalk21:
In the context of Hajj and Umrah rituals, touching the Black Stone and the south western part of the Kaaba is considered a virtuous act and part of the pilgrimage rites. While the act of touching these sacred points is recommended and carries spiritual significance, it is important to understand that forgiveness of sins ultimately comes from sincere repentance, seeking forgiveness from Allah, and performing good deeds.

Good u now admit the black stone carries spiritual significance. Now tell me what are these spiritual significance?

honesttalk21:
Therefore, while the act of touching the Black Stone and south western part of the Kaaba is considered virtuous and may have spiritual benefits, true forgiveness of sins is attained through sincere repentance, seeking Allah's forgiveness, and striving to lead a righteous life in accordance with Islamic teachings.

But Allah can forgive sin through the stone right? I will presume the stone is a medium through which Allah forgives sin.
So Allah has medium through which he forgives sin?
Do u think blood is one of them?

honesttalk21:
The black stone is not holy in Islam. It was no more than an asteroid sent by GOD Almighty to determine the location of where the Kaaba to be built by Abraham and Ishmael, peace be upon them. And today, it is placed in one of the Kaaba's corners to mark the start and finish of the 7 circumambulations (tawaaf) around the Kaaba.

We all know it's not holy, that's why we wonder why Muslims revere it. It once belonged to pagans so it cannot be holy.

honesttalk21:
It was the pagans who plagiarized Islam's practices, not the other way around.

The black stone had been worshipped for years before muhammed appeared on scene. kissing and circumbulating the stone wasn't novel to islam. They were pagan practice introduced into islam.
Pls dont mention Abraham because there's no pre-islamic source that says anything about Abraham having anything to do with the stone or building the kabba.

honesttalk21:
Libation of the Polytheists is for gods (plural/polytheism) not God. You can insist for your satisfaction that the aforementioned isn't true. Ask your traditionalist friends or acquaintances if other gods exist as well as the ones they pour libation for?

This is not about monotheism v polytheism. This thread is about associating a graven image with your deity. Can we call it idolatry when we venerate a stone during worship of your god

honesttalk21:
Have you bothered to study the the chain of transmission and the text of hadith that say the black stone grants forgiveness? Please provide the text of the prayer made to the black stone asking it for forgiveness and a report of its response otherwise stop repeating what is untruth.

I never said u pray to the stone. I wrote u Muslims kiss or touch the stone as atonement of sin- this is found in your literature books.
Let me ask u a question, do u believe the Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allah, Allah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

Is this not evidence that the black stone has significant spiritual influence and connotation.

honesttalk21:
Do you not see how illogical your claim of a black stone being white then turned black due to sins is? When you paint your house with high quality paint does it not darken over years of exposure to natural element? I thought you are a professional of advanced scientific learning? Why is it not called the once white but blackened stone or any other such variant? Give statistically representative evidence of people that saw it when it was white. I figure you have another repugnant untruthful response to this.

Look at this guy, what's my business in what's written in your books. Did I tell u I believe the nonsense? It's your hadiths that said the stone turned from white to black because people were touching it. If u question the absurdity, u should take it up with your muslim scholars and not me.
I don't consider the black stone anything more than a pagan stone that was elevated to spiritual significance by Muhammed for whatever reason. The Black Stone was held in reverence well before Islam and was a site of pilgrimage of Nabataeans who visited the shrine once a year to perform their pilgrimage. The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, bowing, worshiping and praying to such sacred objects. However the practice is condemned in the Tanakh as idolatrous and was the subject of prophetic rebuke.
The meteorite-origin theory of the Black Stone is derived from similar stories of sacred stones such as the one placed and worshipped in the Greek Temple of Artemis.

honesttalk21:
Why prophet Muhammad kissed the stone has been explained before. His forefather's placed it after it came to earth. Do you not know how certain treasure passed from generation to generation are valued? When footballers win even the world cup don't they kiss it despite replicas being made for tournaments? This stone is the same over several millennia.

Do footballers kiss the world cup trophy when they pray to Allah. Wont the muslim world be enraged if a muslim footballer place the trophy in front of him while doing his daily prayer and start kissing it.
Do footballers kiss the cup with hope of reward in heaven? abeg your comparison makes no sense. Try harder.

honesttalk21:
How is Allah's time shared? It seems you don't know all the rights of hajj are in worship of Allah.

hajj is a period dedicated to Allah with intention of drawing close to him. Any act done during this time is considered spiritually significant otherwise u wont do it.

honesttalk21:
Just noticed you repeat the usual slander of the age of Aisha that is definitely a lie. Scrutiny of this by scholars do not agree with this.
https://newlinesmag.com/essays/oxford-study-sheds-light-on-muhammad-underage-wife-aisha/#:~:text=According%20to%20Little%2C%20the%20claim,of%20Aisha%20against%20Shiite%20detractors.


https://www.academia.edu/37720516/A_Hadith_Scholar_Presents_New_Evidence_that_Aisha_was_Near_18_the_Day_of_Her_Marriage_to_the_Prophet_Muhammad?email_work_card=title

It's interesting that Aisha's age was never an issue amongst both early christians apologetics and muslims scholars.
None of your medevial scholars found it odd that muhammed married a 6 year old despite the Aisha's age of marriage was well known and documented in Islamic literatures. In the Islamic world, the young age of her marriage did not draw any significant discourse apart from associating her young age as affirmation of her virginity and subsequent religious purity. Her age did not interest later Muslim scholars either, and went unremarked-upon even by medieval and early-modern Christian polemicists.
It wasn't until the 19th century when westerners arrogate to themselves superiority moral complex and began to question child marriage, thus putting light on Muhammed's marriage with Aisha that her age became controversial.

So why all of a sudden modern Islamic scholars now have an issue with Aisha's age and are revising her age of marriage by pushing it forward, bringing up all forms of weak evidence when clear statements clearly shows she was a very young child. Is it because they now realised marrying a 6 year old girl is rightfully paedophilia and morally wrong.

Narrated `Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)
Sahih al-Bukhari 6130
What adult woman and her friends play with dolls for heaven's sake
Muslims should learn to call what is evil as evil, Muhammed is no saint!!!

honesttalk21:
It is an over flogged case and has no direct relation with your originally asked question or do you now equate the prophet's marriage to the primary acts of worshipping Allah?

I referenced it as example of how not to follow Muhammed, u are the one that made a molehill out of it.

honesttalk21:
I imagine this later inclusion is a ploy for further unending discussion.

Drop Aisha's marriage and answer my question. what is the spiritual significance of the black stone. why is it venerated?

AbuTwins:
As regard the Black stone, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed it, and we followed him in doing so. If a person is unable to kiss it he should touch it with his hand or with something, and then kiss that thing. If he is unable to do that he should point to it with his hand and say [b]Allaahu akbar.[/b]Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah erases sins.

At least U are honest enough to admit the stone can remove sins unlike your friend denying the truth up and down.
Now what power did Allah give this black stone that empowers it to remove sin.
So if God puts same power in a man and authorise him to remove sin, how's that shirk.

AbuTwins:
Another difference is that the Black Stone was sent down by Allah to this earth from Paradise.



It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

Well there's no evidence for that except in your books.
Oral tradition also said obatala came down from heaven with a sacred stone.
So if the traditionalist venerate a sacred stone they believe came from heaven, how does that make them pagan

AbuTwins:
It's not like we got a stone and placed it there for that purpose! The stone have no power of itself. It is proven that the Amir al-Mumineen ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) said, when he kissed the Black Stone "I know that you are a stone and have no power to harm or benefit; were it not that I saw the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) kissing you, I would not have kissed you".

So where does the stone gets the power to turn from white to black due to people's sin?
If it has no power, how is the stone able to pull such feat because above can't be natural.
Ordinary stone don't turn black because people kiss it.

AbuTwins:
Can an idolator say the above statement to the idol he worships? No!

Yes they can. Talk to traditionalist and understand their religion. Stop making things up.
Speak to orisa and kingSango here on nairaland, let them enlighten U.
Traditionalist don't worship images or regard them as deity. They are purely symbols they respect just as U respect the black stone.

AbuTwins:
And finally there's a concept of intention in Islam! You must intend an action before doing it. A man who prostrates for a human may be worshipping or greeting such person! The intention is in the heart! No Muslim should have the intention of worshipping anything apart from Allah! And as we said the stone is from Allah and Allah is above the seven heavens!

So if I carry the images of Allah's 3 daughters and start bowing to down but in my heart I'm bowing to Allah.
Is that acceptable.
If my intention is to worship Allah when bowing to 3 daughters of Allah. Will my worship be accepted?

honesttalk21:
I have not discussed with the traditionalist but know they say when they poor libation that that is for the gods. Definitely showing a Polytheist belief very different from Islam.

Libation is for the god not for the stone. Just like when U bow before kabba U worshipping Allah and not the kabba.

honesttalk21:
Muslims do not attach divine power to the stone. As `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said: You’re just a stone that does not benefit or harm anyone, and if I hadn’t seen the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) kissing you, I would have not done so.

Yes U do. U may deny the hadiths for all U like but your authentic sahih confirmed the stone can forgive sin.
Its says it was once white but became black due to people's sins. How can an ordinary stone archive that? Pls explain.

Also the stone will testify against insincere Muslims on judgement day when he will have eyes and mouth. How can the stone talk of it has no divine powers.
Pls explain.

honesttalk21:
So, we are simply touching or kissing the Black Stone in order to honor us with association the practice of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. It does not imply any reverence whatsoever.

This doesn't make sense. Why should U do something because Muhammed did it, do U worship Muhammed or God.
Muhammed married a 6yr old girl and raided caravans, such a actions will be met with condemnation in today's world even amongst Muslims if anyone tried to copy it.
U dont know why Muhammed kissed the black stone so copying it blinding without any clear authorisation from Allah is blind faith.

honesttalk21:
In any case the black stone isn't mentioned in the Quran or clearly regarded as having 'godly' powers. All worship is for Allah alone who alone bestows and forgives.

Exactly so why venerate it at a time meant only to worship Allah. That's what makes it all suspicious.
Sharing time solely meant for Allah with a stone is paganism.

honesttalk21:
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Verily, I am commanded to worship Allâh (Alone) by obeying Him and doing religious deeds sincerely for Allâh's sake only and not to show off, and not to set up rivals with Him in worship;

Allah solely forgives sins.
39:14 Say, "Allah [alone] do I worship, sincere to Him in my religion

I brought U hadith where it says the stone forgives sin but U rejected it without because U hated the answer.
I will bring it here again...

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is[b] an atonement for sins[/b].”
If U reject above hadith then explain why the black stone is said to have turned from white to black because of sin of people kissing it.

honesttalk21:
Hajj is one of the greatest pillars of Islam if the Muslim has the means to perform this for the sake of worshipping Allah and has numerous benefits including forgiveness of sin by Allah and no other

Well this is your own opinion. Most Muslims believe the stone does forgive sin.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902

Sheuns:
First of Allah is not an Arab God. The Quraysh (old Arabs) worshiped over 300 deities and Allah was not one of them.

Allah means creator God. The Quraysh (Old Arabs) did not have a creator God; they carved all their deities by hand. Their most supreme deity was Hubal. The deity that has the closest name to Allah was a goddess called Al-lat.

Allah was introduced to the Quraysh and Arabs by Muhammed in the 5th/6th century. Allah was a new God to the Quraysh and Arabs then; that was why they resisted and fought Muhammed for the new God, because it disrupted their trades, incomes and beliefs.

When I carried out some research, I discovered that there is some similarities between Eledumare/ Oba Aseda with Allah/Yahweh. They’re both identified as creator Gods.

Ifa believed there was a creator so did Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammed believe there is a creator God. What differs is the names each race/tribe calls this creator God; but they all accept that there is a creator God.

If Allah was introduced to Arabs, why was Muhammed's father called Abdullah meaning slave of Allah.
How can someone be called slave of a deity not known to his tribe.

Sheuns:
Lol. You sabi twist history.


Waraqah ibn Nawfal was a cousin to Khadijah just as Khadijah was a cousin to Muhammed. All 3 are cousins of each other. He practiced monotheism; worship of one God unlike the Quraysh that practiced polytheism. It was not recorded anywhere that he was a Christian as you claimed. Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, Joseph and a lot of prophets mentioned in the Quran and Bible all practiced monotheism and remember at that time they were books like Torah, Injil, Sabur given to Moses, Jesus and David respectively. Injil means Gospels of Jesus, Sabur means Psalms of David. Waraqah in Nawfal practiced monotheism and not Christianity as you mentioned.

U Muslims can lie...I've never seen a people that makes bold face lie like Muslims. Maybe because takiya is allowed and lying is not a sin in islam.

This one came here and lied waraka was never called a Christian yet his hadiths clearly states waraka was a Christian convert who used to translate the gospel to Arabic.

Why do U guys love to lie...why?

Indabello:
The ultimate goal of education is knowledge and character and you lack both. This tells us about your person and the type of education you have acquired.

This is evident in the skewed version of history you have been dishing out to your gullible audience since .
Go read the works of Inikori and Walter Rodney and come back here to tell the world between Europe and Arab who turned Africans more into an endangered species.

Actually both did damage to the continent. Arabs enslaved 12 million black Africans and took them to the Arab peninsula while whites took 15 million slaves to the new world.
Regarding invasion, European colonisation was due to better technology, Arabs didn't have such advanced technology so crossing the desert or penetrating the rain forest of Africa to continue jihad was a difficult task. Arabs were no better than Europeeans when it comes to treatment of black africans. They just don't have the means to be more brutal.

Indabello:
As for when Europeans killed for those who said Jesus was not Lord; again, if only you had the right education, you would have learned from the works of notable African historians the number of Africans killed to have Christianity entrenched here( the sword and the gospel preaching did the magic). Even the works of notable novelists of African origin like Achebe and Ngugi Wan Thiongo is replete with such narations.
Always try get your background facts right before coming to display your ignorance in the public space.

No European killed in the name of Jesus Christ. I repeat, No European killed anyone in the name of any divine Lord.
They killed in the name of the king or queen. They invaded for the sake of colonisation and greed. They killed so as to expand their empire, they cared less about whatever religion the colonies practice.

French colonies in Africa were ethnicities with Muslim population. French army invaded, destroyed their army, killed their sultans and kings, subjugated the population and imposed foreign rule on them. Yet never did they impose Christianity on anyone in the colony but allowed them to practice their Islam in peace.
Infact, British govt in colonial Nigeria actively discouraged missionaries from promoting Christianity in the north as a way to pls the local leaders.

So that claim that anyone was killed for Christianity is a big lie from your mouth.

Indabello:
As for killing in the name of Allah, if and only if you know Islam well will you understand that what these our northern brothers do is contrary to Islamic preaching and a matter of Jungle justice as we experience often across different parts of the country.

Bro stop the cap. Muhammed clearly state anyone who leaves Islam should be killed.

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17

Indabello:
In as much as blasphemy is a sin in Islam, only the appropriate authorities are vested with the right to investigate and sanction those guilty of it.

Well your chief imam in Abuja clearly said there are red lines in Islam that should not be crossed when Deborah was murdered by her classmates.
So if your chief imam approves mob action, why should I believe U?

Indabello:
This is not peculiar to Islam as blasphemy is a purnishable offence in all major religions of the world including Christianity which you earlier referenced.
Here are some Biblical verses related to blasphemy:

1. Leviticus 24:16 - "Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death."

This is Theocracy- God as the head of state. It ended when israel choose to have a king and rejected God as the head of the nation.
We don't have theocracy anywhere in the world now, islam has no caliphate and no country fully practice shariah....so I don't understand why blasphemy against God should be a crime.

Indabello:
2. Matthew 12:31-32 - "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
3. Mark 3:28-30 - "Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin—for they were saying, 'He has an unclean spirit.'"
4. Luke 12:10 - "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
5. 1 Timothy 1:20 - "Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme."

Christianity do not ascribe death penalty to who blaspheme. Its left between himself and God as those verses clearly states. So comparing this to islam where blasphemy gets the death penalty makes no sense.

Indabello:
I need not remind you that your iffah often request for human sacrifices to appease it's anger and those that desecrated the shrine of Iffah are often offered as sacrifices to the gods.

Pls learn the diference btw occultic practice and traditional religion. Hollywood movies has brainwashed U.
No ifa priest will demand from U human blood. Its a sacrilege that goes against ifa teachings and doctrines. Sanctity of human life is the bedrock of ifa oracle.
Pls learn about other people's religion b4 talking shit about it. U Muslims will start looking for who to kill once people misinterprete your religion. Pls do the same to ifa religion.

Indabello:
Again, your failure to grasp this simple reality of blasphemy across major religions of the world shows the shallowness of your knowledge.

Blasphemy in islam is very disturbing. It encourages it's adherents to kill anyone who insults Allah, Quran, or muhammed. While respect for other belief should be encouraged across board and possibly enforced to promote humanity...extreme penalty for mere insulting is barbaric and very archaic. No God will establish such religion.
And this proves Islam is not from God, it's a man made religion that promotes violence and fear rather than love.

Indabello:
When you add this to the fact that you are destitute of character, it becomes abundant clear that you are not a person with culture and education.

Finally, please continue to worship your ifah in peace while we worship our ALLAH in peace. Continue to follow your iffah priests while we follow our "pedophile" Muhammad in peace.

P.S. if you are not tolerant enough to speak respectfully of others belief system, how do you expect them to be tolerant of your abuses.

I will not dignify you with any response again because you have shown that you are not a person of culture and character.

So if they are intolerant of his abuse like they were for Deborah, what should they do to him?

Danmisra:
Now the the religion of tolerance is confused regarding sodomy and these disgusting animals that parade themselves as sane human beings.
This shows that the Bible to the Christians is not a source of guidance but for confusion.

Lawless religion that entertains all sort of perversity and bullshit In the name of tolerance. Soon Christianity will vanish from existence and remain on Paper, just the way it is now in Europe and other parts of the world.

U gotta be kidding me.
Islam that's already on his way out of middle east.
Almost gone in Iran and Saudi are beginning to make a joke out of it.
UAE and Qatar are happy to dilute islam in order to attract westerners to their countries.
Soon we will see the 3 idols of Allah's daughter in Saudi.
Mecca will simply become a tourist attraction of sort, and that's what is should be because travelling to kiss a stone is paganism in the first place.

etrange:
While the definitions I gave is in line with Christian theology, the general definition of paganism (outside the prism of the Abrahamic religions) is the belief in any alternative god other than the god or gods of the “mainstream” religions. Similarly, idolatry is the worship of idols. It’s important to stress that idols here mustn’t be a physical object, it could also be any god other than the god of the speaker. This is regardless of the presence or absence of symbolic physical objects.

Now, going by these definitions, a Christian is right to call a traditionalist an idol worshiper (idol here meaning an alternative god) just as much as the traditionalist has the right to call a Christian an idol worshiper. Both are right because both believe their own god is the real god and the other’s god is an idol. However, the expressions “idolatry” and “idol worshipper” stem from Judaism. A traditionalist may have an entirely different expression for referring to people who don’t believe their gods. For example, Muslims might call Christian infidels, but Christians don’t ask why they’re being accused cause they understand it’s just a matter of point-of-view.

So you might argue that they both use symbols, but when you consider the fact that what a Christian refers to as an idol isn’t just the physical object but also the god represented by the object, then you see why they call those people idol worshippers. Like I said earlier, the traditionalists don’t have to accept that name but they also can’t cry foul cause no one is complaining about whatever name they choose to call those who don’t believe in their gods. However, to be fair, originators of these terms (Judaists, Christians and Muslims) have the power of numbers and that’s why, today, these terms have become almost synonymous with other religious beliefs other than these three. At the end, it’s all a matter of POV. That’s why we must put humanity above all.

Christian definition of idolatry stem from the clear definition given in the bible which is associating graven image to a deity.
Islam which is another Abrahamic religion latched on to this definition and probably expanded it, but it equally agreed associating graven image to a deity is idolatry.
Traditionalist would not have an expression for idolatry because worshiping and venerating idols is a core part for their religion. They do not see it as wrong.

One would expect such clear definition of idolatry to reflect in the religious practice of those who profess the definition, but alas that is not the case.

This is why objective evidence is important when we define terminologies otherwise people would just be shifting goalpost to suit themselves.

Just like U said, the whole thing has become a matter of perspective and not objectiveness. That's why someone can travel to Mecca to kiss a stone, rationalise it and insist it's not idolatry; but will hold a traditionalist to the jugular, accuse him of idolatry and reject whatever explanation the later gives

honesttalk21:
When traditional adherents pour libation it is clearly an offering to the deity or spirit.

This is clearly different from the act of touching or kissing the black stone in Mecca as all acts of worship for a Muslim is towards Allah and nothing else.

The significance of the black stone lies in its connection to Prophet Muhammad pbuh and the pilgrim acts associated with the Kaaba rather than being an object of worship itself.

The Kaaba constitutes a point all Muslims face in unity of faith while praying to Allah

1. If U discuss with traditionalists they will clearly tell I they don't honour or worship the stone. Its simply a symbolic representation of their religious practice. That the stone is lost will in no way hinder the worship of their deity.

2. So are U saying Muslims do not venerate the black stone. I know some Muslims believe it has the power to forgive sin according to the hadiths.

3. I find it odd that Muslims will travel to Mecca for pilgrimage to spend quality time with Allah, then during the worship of Allah would now share that moment with a stone. Especially if this stone is nothing at all.
I would have understand if it forgives sin, then we can say it shares attributes with Allah thus may share time with Allah too...
But if U insist the stone is nothing....then I don't understand why pilgrims will be venerating a stone at a time he should be spending with Allah.

elhakiimed:
Your emotions proceeds your thinking no doubt or perhaps you're just clueless about what you're saying.

The prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him, accommodated Jews and Christians till his passing. Muslims today do the same.

Christians need Islam to be hated to feel secure in their faith, not the other way.

Fools like you always think every cry is against you. It's actions like yours that's escalating your faith's dwindling influence worldwide.

I remember telling U that Islam is built solely to antagonise Christianity. U denied it.
Here is your imam spewing hatred against Christianity. Christians didn't attack him or his church. Christians didnt say anything bad about his beliefs.

Yet he's telling his followers to buy guns and attack Christians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfLUqglxi60?si=ioI-5LeeRMhaZ8VO

etrange:
Religious practices are basically the same at the core. Those terms you mentioned aren’t inherently bad (ideally). They are just terms that define certain religious beliefs. Peganism refers to any religion in which the followers believe that they are multiple gods and god hierarchies. Abrahamic religions don’t believe this, and that’s why they’re not referred to as peganism. On the other hand, idolatry is any religion in which a physical image, object or animal is worshipped as a deity. Again, this isn’t the case with Abrahamic religions, thus the reason they’re not referred to as idolatry.

The reason this terms have negative connotation is simply because they originated from the side of those who do not agree with the practices they define. As a pagan or idol worshiper, you aren’t obliged to refer to yourself using any of those terms (in fact, those terms don’t even exist in many non European languages). Even if you accept the nomenclature (just the way blacks internally accepted the N word), it doesn’t have to have to be perceived as negative amongst you (again, just like the N word isn’t offensive when used by a black person to refer to a fellow black person).

Finally, nothing really stops followers of non Abrahamic religions from having their own terms for Christians/Muslims. They probably do, but you wouldn’t know cause you grew up on the Abrahamic side of the divide, and that’s why you know and question their terms. One thing we can’t do, however, is force others to change their language because of us.

To my understanding, paganism mean religions outside of the main ones and possibly could refer to animist religions.
.
I don't think traditionalists consider idols deity and most don't worship them.
They idols are mostly symbolic representation of the unseen deity but they are not deity themselves.

That's why I'm asking why those who kiss a stone for symbolic reason accuse traditionalist as idolaters?

I decided to bring this here because I'm yet to receive a logical response to my query. All I'm getting is emotional outburst and insults.

Can someone explained to me the difference between these 2 belief system.
Why is one called idolatry and the other not called paganism.
Why can't both of them worship together under the same roof since they both venerate a stone?
Why should adherent of one of the faith travel to Mecca to lick a stone only to come back to Africa and mock someone pouring gin on a stone a pagan.

Pls no insult...just need clarification.

LegalWolf AntiChristian elhakiimed motayoayinde, drlateef, Lukuluku69 , AbuTwins , honesttalk21, Explore2xmore Ohyoudidn't, Qasim6.

EreluRoz:
Na amaka wan do ashawo, no be the money wey she chop.

Let's say Amaka chop the money of 10 men, U think she no go sleep with at least 5 of them?
Or U think na all of them be simp/mumu...

Na so ashawo dey start...

EreluRoz:
A smart woman will still value money and won't become useless. Forget these things men are spending heavily without even getting a hug. Just know when to run away, that's all.

I go chop him money, I go chop him money...
Na so Amaka take become ashawo...

Ohyoudidnt:
For your age, training and experience this is grossly disappointing and unexpected.
Trace who started insults and you will find yourself.

Touching or kissing the Black Stone is for association with the great Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); it does not imply any reverence whatsoever

Sorry I don't subscribe to the concept of turning the other cheek.

It is no lie that the Quran takes precedence over the Hadith.

Remember this post is Fun Fact: Jews Can Pray In A Mosque But The Church? Never. - Religion - Nairaland so if you have any other questions that haven't been answered open another thread or seek other means of fulfilling your research.

See below and tell me this is not idolatry.
https://youtube.com/shorts/fWycluxLpvM?si=B1p3z11c5fqAVfVH

Ohyoudidnt:
For your age, training and experience this is grossly disappointing and unexpected.
Trace who started insults and you will find yourself.

Oga I didn't insult U. I didn't insult your Allah or prophet.
I only said Islam is a pagan religion. And sir, that's not an insult but an observation. Unfortunately U couldn't bring evidence to prove otherwise.

Ohyoudidnt:
Touching or kissing the Black Stone is for association with the great Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); it does not imply any reverence whatsoever

No problem since U have rejected all hadiths and generated your own opinion based on bias logic.
Now based on your own hermeneutics, ihat means a Yoruba traditional worshipper who is pouring libation on a stone due to association with obatala hasn't done anything wrong. Muslims cannot accuse such person of idolatry
Agree with above and we will end the discussion.

Ohyoudidnt:
Sorry I don't subscribe to the concept of turning the other cheek.

I never asked U to turn the other cheek and I don't subscribe to it either. That verse is one of the most misinterpreted verse in the bible.

Ohyoudidnt:
It is no lie that the Quran takes precedence over the Hadith.

Muhammed told U Muslims multiple times not to follow him blindly. He warned U that if a statement from his mouth isn't a revelation, thread with caution.
Muhammed never brought a verse on black stone. U don't know why he kissed the black stone- maybe in honour of his dead father. I just saw him kissed the black stone and Muslims decided to kiss the black stone.
Unfortunately, U guys dont have access to angel jibril to correct any mistakes or error. Angel jibril stopped communicating with mankind after the death of Muhammed.
Now Muslims are trapped with kissing the stone which is evidently idolatry no matter how U argue it out.

Ohyoudidnt:
Remember this post is Fun Fact: Jews Can Pray In A Mosque But The Church? Never. - Religion - Nairaland so if you have any other questions that haven't been answered open another thread or seek other means of fulfilling your research.

I already answered the questions.
Over a million Jews worship in churches with Christians. I told U to research messianic Jews, did U look into it?

Other Jews that continue to pray to temple walls are idolaters. Maybe that's why they are happy to worship in mosque since they both share similar pagan practice.
In fact, I see no reason why pagan Jews and Muslims cannot go and pray in shrines. Seriously, I can't deduce why not.
The practice is similar in all 3 religion- idolatry.

dangermouse:
I see nothing special or new in this.

Same gospel and religions that was brought and preached to Africans by the whites?

Same religions that has white roots?

Tell me this when our African religions are being preached over there. Then it will be news.

Christianity doesn't have white roots. No white man wrote the books in the bible and there's no white character in the bible.

No one is stopping u from promoting modern African spirituality, travel to the village and ask those herbalist to teach u. Live with them and learn the religion from them. Wole Soyinka is a trad man and talks about it.
Don't be lazy, do something about what U believe.

Funny thing is u guys only remember these traditional religion when U see Christians preaching. Why?
It's not like U care about our ancestral religions itself.

At least the black cubans and Brazilians who care about the African religion are doing something about it. What are U doing about it here in Africa?

Skoonheid:
.If the Christian dogmas of a revengeful God, universal sinfulness, election by divine grace and the danger of eternal damnation were true, it would be a sign of weak-mindedness and lack of character not to become a priest, apostle or hermit and, in fear and trembling, to work solely on one's own salvation; it would be senseless to lose sight of ones eternal advantage for the sake of temporal comfort. If we may assume that these things are at any rate believed true, then the everyday Christian is of all creatures the most pitiful.

Women like U sponsored Jesus' 3 ministry on earth. These women heard the gospel, received salvation and some healing; they all followed Jesus but continued to work hard and remained financially resourceful.

Luke 8
Soon afterward Jesus began a tour of the nearby towns and villages, preaching and announcing the Good News about the Kingdom of God. He took his twelve disciples with him, along with some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases. Among them were Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons; 3 Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s business manager; Susanna; and many others who were contributing from their own resources to support Jesus and his disciples.

I'm sure you never read the bible but I think U could learn some lessons from these ladies. God didn't create women to be lazy, deficient and dependent on a man all her life. She can also live a resourceful life.

Saying everybody should live in convent or become a nun because they are Christians is a sign of mental laziness and cerebral apathy. Who will feed or cloth U while U waste away in convent.... gentiles?

Jesus will never tolerate such pathetic lifestyle. Luke who wrote the gospel worked as a physician while Paul worked as a tent maker while preaching the gospel. They were never a burden to anyone which is what U are advocating.

Ohyoudidnt:
There you go displaying your inverted reasoning. You and your type make a big deal about the Hadith explaining the Quran yet you cannot bring any Quran verse regarding the black stone.

The Quran always holds the highest authority in Islam, and the Hadith (sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad) is considered secondary to the Quran. The instruction of the Hadith does not take precedence over the Quran. The Hadith serves as an explanation and commentary on the teachings of the Quran.

When you are able to bring forth a verse on the black stone from the Quran you can continue your advanced diarrhoea. Till then shut up and follow your idol who escaped the confines of your temple.

Lame and stupid statement you make about not following the old testament. Why then is it the old testament kept in the Bible. Your biblical Jesus stating all of the words of God remain valid yet you turn away from it and make a new religion which he himself didn't proclaim? Is this not an advanced psychological disease?


If Muhammad honoured the Black stone as you stupidity claim point to where he praised the stone above Allah or say it was equal or representative of Allah; may such comparison
remain forbidden. It appears you people will need a lot more to get Muslims to make your same type of eternally damming mistake.

Now you got me rolling over. You say God is omnipresent but this presence excludes the temple?

The verses in Micah tell of a universal peace that has not yet manifested. The argument then is if Jesus was this Messiah, why isn’t there world peace? Many Jewish People who are still waiting expectantly for the Messiah are expecting a Messiah who will bring world peace.

The Book of Micah was likely written between 735 and 700 B.C.

Apologies to the OP this guy has diverted your discourse and I have encouraged him. Hopefully he will sincerely and convincingly answer why Jews are not allowed to use their church for worship.

Obviously between the two of them there is severe polytheism that cannot be tolerated by either or critical difference about Jesus and the messiah

TenQ how do you deal with this guys? U show them the truth, they become emotional and start insulting U.
Is this what you ve been going Thu all these years!!!!

He kept shouting Quran Qur'an Quran yet there's no mention of the black stone in the Qur'an at all.
Ohyoudidn't since U said we should use the Qur'an as the final authority, why do U kiss the black stone when the Qur'an never mentioned the black stone? Why?

Ohyoudidn't calm down and drink lots of water, then come back and show me the difference btw these two actions....

Ohyoudidnt:
Which takes precedence inverter SIRTee15 the Quran or the Hadith?

Just say U are embarrassed by the hadiths and we will understand , no need for all these Chery picking.

U can't be choosing what suits your fancy in your islamic literatures yet claim to be Sunni Muslim.

We Christians don't follow the old testament but U will never see a Christian deny the OT, we defend it as much just like we do for the new testament because both are seen as word of God. As much as OT is very inconvenient for most Christians, we will never deny it or attempt to throw it under the bus. NEVER.

Ohyoudidnt:
Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “How can you worship besides Allah those who can neither harm nor benefit you? And Allah ˹alone˺ is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing.” Q5:76

He rebuked ˹them˺, “Do you then worship—instead of Allah—what can neither benefit nor harm you in any way? Q21:66

Do I believe the words of Allah or the lies of someone claiming to be of Allah?

For the sake of your mischievous argument you disregard
Sahih al-Bukhari 1597
Narrated `Abis bin Rabi`a:

`Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger pbuh kissing you I would not have kissed you."



We are definitely not saying the same thing you liar.



Indeed, Allah does not forgive associating others with Him ˹in worship˺, but forgives anything else of whoever He wills. And whoever associates others with Allah has indeed committed a grave sin

The black stone is well documented in your hadiths. No be me or any Christian write am.

The black stone was initially white then became black due to sins of those that kiss it. If it's not removing sins, how did it become black?

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaa said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).

Ohyoudidnt:
All the things you list under traditional or pagan worship amount to worshipping other than Allah.

This is the most extreme cognitive dissonance argument I've ever witnessed.
U Muslims travel to Mecca to worship Allah in unity. U circumbulate the kabba to worship Allah. In the same act of worship, U queue to kiss the black stone. But this is not idolatry.
However, a yoruba traditional religion worshipper who wakes up in the morning to pour libation to sacred stones is performing idolatry. He didn't worship the stone, neither did he pray to the stone.
But according to Muslims who just returned from Mecca where they kissed a stone.... the Yoruba man is an idolater because he did exactly same thing the Muslims did- stone veneration.

Muslims are hypocrites. If U dont see this as a big problem with your religion, then you are lost.
U guys are no different from stone worshippers in Africa, the difference is you packaged yours better.

Ohyoudidnt:
We are not honoring the stone but following the practice of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. There's a clear difference unless you now claim prophet Muhammad pbuh may Allah forbid and forgive me for drawing this analogy worshipped the stone.

Liar...your prophet honoured it. Muhammed touched the black stone and shouted allahu Akbar. Why would he praise Allah while touching the stone.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) performed Tawaaf on his camel, and every time he came to the corner [where the Stone is] he would point to it and say “Allahu akbar.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4987).

Your prophet also commanded that if a person is unable to kiss the Stone, he should touch it with his hand or something else, then he can kiss the thing with which he touched it.

It was narrated that Abu Tufayl (may Allah be pleased with him) said: I saw the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) performing Tawaaf around the House, touching the corner [where the Stone is] with a crooked staff which he had with him, then kissing the staff.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1275).

This shows the level of veneration your prophet gave the black stone. The symbolic gesture of the black stone can be transferred to other objects that touched it according to your Prophet.

Ohyoudidnt:
Please point me to where it is stated in the words of Allah from the Quran that the Black stone has a special or spiritual value.

The Qur'an didn't mention the black stone at all. Not a single verse was given to the black stone. None.
So why do U guys kiss it, why do U guys venerate it?

This add further proof that veneration of the black stone its not an authentic Islamic practice. Instead it’s spilled over from the ancient Meccan religion into Islam.
The stone represents a goddess of fertility and the whole structure is shaped like a vagina.
Muslims don't realise they follow something ordained by Muhammed and not Allah.
And this makes Muhammed a false prophet.

Its the hadith not Koran that elevated the black stone to level of spiritual significance.

The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allah, Allah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

Ohyoudidnt:
It seems comparative religion has excited you to a state of confusion. Sorry if this is the case.

The gospel of Christ is for everyone. Paul said to the Jews I become like a Jew and to the gentiles I become like a gentile.
The truth is objective and stands out irrespective of religion or belief system. I study every belief system to know how to subjugate it in front of Christ which is the truth.
The problem with Muslims is they fail to think beyond abrahamic religion. They only test their faith against either Christianity or judaism. Oga there are over 1000 religions in the world!!!
Ohyoudidn't, have U ever asked yourself why Islam struggles to penetrate sub Sahara Africa?
Sit down and compare your religion with other African traditional religion, the level of similarity will shock u. This is when it will dawn on you that Islam is a pagan religion.
Yes, it's pagan religion deceiving itself because it's wearing Gucci belt.

Ohyoudidnt:
Is your god a physical form that can be confined to a place like a temple and if this is the case obviously there is the idol you worship.

God is omnipresent my friend, he's everywhere.

Ohyoudidnt:
You mean Jews that don't accept the false messianic description of Jesus as he failed to fulfil their prophesy are senseless?

When was these prophecy written up. I dont regard rabbinical Jews who came up 300 yrs after Jesus.
Go and bring what the 2nd temple Jews wrote about the Messiah and we can have a discussion.

Ohyoudidnt:
Tell me was Jesus crucified on the day of the passover or the day before the passover?

Off point. If U want to discuss the passion narrative, open a new thread and tag me.

Ohyoudidnt:
You and perhaps your kindred must be hunters of sort. Sorry there's nothing to rope or catch here.

The black stone may have been revered and respected by the previous generations, but you ought to know that the Black Stone itself does not hold any spiritual significance.

Baba oniro. Why U dey lie like this.
The stone has the power to forgive sins. Touching the stone makes for atonement for sin.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an atonement for sins.”

How can a stone forgive sin yet have no spiritual significance. Is the stone not to stand in accusation against insincere Muslims on judgement day?

How can lie bold face and say the black stone has no spiritual significance? U well so?

Ohyoudidnt:
The pilgrim may touch or if he can approach near enough, kiss the Black Stone as an emotional gesture calling to mind the time when the Holy Prophet(sa) kissed it when he performed the circuit. The Holy Prophet Muhammad(sa) did this, not because of any sanctity attached to the stone, but as an expression of his emotion at the Ka’aba.

We are both saying the same thing. I'm not arguing with u about what Muhammed told U.
All I'm saying is can we apply same principle to African traditional worshippers since they also deal with graven images during their worship.

Are U saying it's ok for a traditional worshipper to bow down to a stone or kiss a wood or circumambulate a graven image during their worship if it's solely for emotional expressions.
Is it ok for Yoruba traditionalist to pour libation on a stone every morning if it's solely to honour the stone?
Is that what U saying ?

Ohyoudidnt:
Now tell us why Jews cannot conduct religious acts in the church? Do Christians forbid them or the Biblical Jesus say you should have no relationship with them? Do elaborate why please

The spirit of God has departed the temple since the time of ezekiel so anyone still practicing Judaism is wasting his time.
Even if they rebuild the temple, it's useless because the glory of God will never return to the temple.
Above is evidence that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and now the glory of God on earth.

If the Jews rebuild the temple and glory of God descend into the inner sanctuary, then I will admit the new testament is a lie. But that will never happen because Jesus Christ is the truth.

The sensible Jews have embraced Jesus as the Messiah and are called messianic Jews. The rest are just leaning on the Judeo-Christian ideology to misbehave.
Kissing the temple wall or praying facing the temple wall in 2024 is paganism.

Ohyoudidnt:
You will need to provide clear proof that any pagan rights involve the licking of a stone.

Bear in mind that there's no compulsion or order for Muslims to lick any stone.

So long as Islam condone kissing of a stone, then it's part of islam, whether is compulsory or not is irrelevant.

Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “How can you worship besides Allah those who can neither harm nor benefit you? And Allah ˹alone˺ is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing.” Q5:76

He rebuked ˹them˺, “Do you then worship—instead of Allah—what can neither benefit nor harm you in any way? Q21:66

Licking a stone is not a form of worship among pagans. Ritual practices and offerings in pagan traditions typically involve gestures such as leaving natural offerings like flowers, ribbons, honey, milk, or personal items at sacred sites. Licking a stone does not align with traditional pagan rituals or customs.

Voudou worshippers kiss their idols.
Anyway the point here is not about kissing but veneration of stone.
Are U saying pouring libation on stone during worship isn't idolatry...is that what U saying?

Qasim6:
Your argument is flawed Oga, stop feeling yourself.

Do you know how many pagan religions believe in the concept of dying and rising man-god.

Or how many pagan religions believe in the concept of human sacrifice to appease god?

Does that make Christainity a pagan religion?

We are instructed to face the Kaaba, there is evidence for that in the Qur'an.

Oga this is about stone veneration not man-god. Pls stick to topic.
If U want to discuss man-god, open another thread. But first understand the meaning of man-god because Jesus is not a man-god.
A man god is a human being living like a God on earth. Definitely, that not Jesus. He never lived like a God. Jesus was physically a man and lived like a MAN.

I don't know where U ignorant folks get the idea of human sacrifice from...
What Jesus did is called SELF SACRIFICE AND not any human sacrifice. Jesus laid is life willingly that we may live.

There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. John 15.13

Above is self sacrifice. If U think it's human sacrifice, then U have to explain with sound LOGIC.

Now back to topic....
If I understand your argument, U saying licking of stone ritual or veneration of stone is not sufficient to tag a believe system as pagan.

If that's the case, would U say below ON ITS OWN isn't idolatry.

Ohyoudidnt:
Don't mind their cherry picking the words of men they call hadith that goes against themselves and the Quran.

Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “How can you worship besides Allah those who can neither harm nor benefit you? And Allah ˹alone˺ is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing.” Q5:76

He rebuked ˹them˺, “Do you then worship—instead of Allah—what can neither benefit nor harm you in any way? Q21:66

Ignoring other hadith

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”

I've seen U oga...
Now answer my question..

U guys claim Muhammed told U guys to be licking the black stone. No problem.

But if U see a traditional worshipper kissing an ancestral sacred stone..is it idolatry?

elhakiimed:
My response suffices for a sincere questioner. But you think you can justify your idol worship of Jesus by hanging on to muslim's purely symbolic practices. We never pray to it nor humans, angels, etc except Allah.

You can't say the same about your actions to Jesus nor the stones your idol worshipping kinsmen pray to.

See clown...
At least Jesus can say your sins are forgiven BUT a stone forgiving sin is the most bizarre thing I've ever heard in my life. A stone that can't talk...

Traditional worshippers are far better than U Muslims, none of them believe a stone can forgive sin.
Only Muslims believe licking a stone can forgive sin..
If this is not paganism, I do t know what to call it....