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Christianity Etc › Re: The Synoptic Quranic Versions- the so called preservation of the Qur'an by SIRTee15(op): 11:16am On Apr 21, 2024

Hamzaay:
Show me or give me a reference and i will give
you an answer

Its in the main article, can't repeat myself.

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Christianity Etc › Re: The Synoptic Quranic Versions- the so called preservation of the Qur'an by SIRTee15(op): 9:29am On Apr 21, 2024

Hamzaay:
Lol... show proof bro. Don't drag islam into the mud with Christianity

Focus on the Qur'an. That bible is false doesn't make Qur'an true.
They are 2 independent variables. One doesn't validate or invalidate the other.

Why did ibn mosood and Ubay reject the Qur'an compiled by Zaid.
Answer the question

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Christianity Etc › Re: The Synoptic Quranic Versions- the so called preservation of the Qur'an by SIRTee15(op): 8:52am On Apr 21, 2024

Hamzaay:
2025 a new Bible is coming out. And u want to compare ur modified books to the Quran?

Just like new translation of Qur'an will come out in 2025.
Focus on the topic.

Why did Ubay and ibn mosood reject the Qur'an compiled by Zaid.
Why did Abu bakir choose to ignore the best of reciters approved by Prophet Muhammad for the job of compilation of the Qur'an.

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Christianity Etc › Re: What Was Wrong With Abubakar's Quran: Perfect Preservation Of The Quran by SIRTee15: 8:44am On Apr 21, 2024

TenQ:
What was wrong with the Quran of Quran of Abu Bakr given to Hafsa to warrant editing by Zaid Zaid bin Thabit the second time?
Let it be known that four men from the Ansars memorised (collected) the complete Quran during the lifetime of Mohammed and taught others
Sahih al-Bukhari 3758
Narrated Masruq:
`Abdullah (bin Mas`ud) was mentioned before `Abdullah bin `Amr. The latter said, "That is a man I continue to love because I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, ' Learn the recitation of the Qur'an from (any of these) four persons: `Abdullah bin Masud, Salim the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Ubai bin Ka`b, and Mu`adh bin Jabal." I do not remember whether he mentioned Ubai first or Mu`adh.

The Quran of Abubakar and Hafsa
1. The fear of permanently losing verses due to muslims fighting wars is said to have motivated the initial collection of the Qur'an under Caliph Abu Bakr.
Sahih al-Bukhari 4986
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailima). (I went to him) and found `Umar bin Al- Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "`Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Qur'an by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yamama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to `Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" `Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project." `Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which `Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palme stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat at-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is: 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (at-Tauba) (9.128-129). Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with `Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of `Umar.

2. Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with `Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of `Umar.

3. The third caliph Uthman was concerned because there were clear differences in the recitation of the Qur'an among the people. The differences were so great Uthman and his companions feared future dispute about the true Qur'an and its contents. So Uthman asked Hafsa for her copy so that a committee could write a single version of the Quran

Hafsas Quran was either not complete or it was edited and not just copied as can be observed in the hadith of Bukhari below

Sahih Bukhari Hadith 4987
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to `Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before." So `Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to `Uthman. `Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, `Abdullah bin AzZubair, Sa`id bin Al-As and `AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. `Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, `Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. `Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4988
Zaid bin Thabit added, "A verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuza`ima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was):
'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Questions:
1. What was wrong with the Quran of Quran of Abu Bakr given to Hafsa to warrant editing by Zaid Zaid bin Thabit the second time?
2. There were four reciters of the Quran attested by Mohammed himself, why were none of them consulted in writing the Quran of Abu Bakr and later Uthman but instead Zaid Zaid bin Thabit was commissioned for the job?
3. Do you now agree that the first and second edition of the Arabic Quran were different?

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Christianity Etc › Re: What Was Wrong With Abubakar's Quran: Perfect Preservation Of The Quran by SIRTee15: 2:08am On Apr 21, 2024

TenQ:
It could be a conspiracy between Aisha and her father Abubakar to tear off pages of the written Quran to wipe off evidence.

This was probably why Abubakar had to do a new Quran while pretending that the Quran of Mohammed was lost.

At least the five times breastfeeding was recited but somehow it did not make it into the Quran edited by Zaid.

I also think Abu bakir and Aisha didn't feel guilty tearing off pages of the Qur'an because they knew majority of the Koran is lost anyway, so whatever they remove isn't going to change anything.

I also think aisha may have confessed to her father her long term suspicion that Muhammed sometimes fabricates Quranic verses for his convenience and not everything is from jubril.

“I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires.”

With above facts, they felt no remorse mutilating the pages of Qur'an for their own convenience.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Synoptic Quranic Versions- the so called preservation of the Qur'an by SIRTee15(op): 1:37am On Apr 21, 2024*

Ubay bin kab also rejected the uthmanic codex saying he cannot give up what he learnt directly from the prophet.

4719. It is related from Ibn ‘Abbas that ‘Umar said, “Ubayy was the one of us with the best recitation, yet we leave some of the words of Ubayy. Ubayy said, ‘I took it from the mouth of the Messenger of Allah and WILL NOT LEAVE IT for anything.’ Allah Almighty says, ‘Whenever We abrogate an ayat or cause it to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or equal to it.’
(2:106)” (Aisha Bewley, Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, Chapter 69. Book of the Virtues of the Qur’an, VIII: The reciters among the Companions of the Prophet)

Islamic scholars know that Ubai Ibn Ka’b had a compilation of the Quran that differed from the current version, which was compiled primarily by Zaid Ibn Thabit.
Among the differences we know of between Zaid & Ubai’s Qurans, was the fact that Ubai’s Quran had two additional surahs, al-Hafd and al-Khal'.

This problem is acknowledged by Umar in the Hadith. In Sahih Bukhari, Vol. VI, #527, Umar noted that, despite the fact that Ubai was called the greatest reciter of the Quran by Muhammad, two of the Surahs in Ubai’s Quran were not put in Zaid’s codex.

Ubai’s codex of the Quran was the standard version used in Syria before Uthman ordered all manuscripts that did not agree with the one compiled by Zaid et al. to be burned. Many still know Ubai’s surahs today! These surahs have not been lost, they have been REJECTED by the Muslim leaders!

According to Surah 3:3-4, these leaders bring a heavy doom on themselves and their followers.

Umar tried to justify the rejection of Ubay's codex with abrogation.
But Ubai surahs were not abrogated by Allah, they were abrogated by Zaid and those who chose his text.
The Quran promises abrogated or forgotten things are replaced by Allah with something similar or better (Surah 2:106). How could this be done after Muhammad has passed away?

Zaid et al. should have accepted Ubai’s surahs even if they were only found with Ubai, since he accepted portions found only with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and Ubai’s credentials exceeded that of Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari.

As we can see, the preservation of the Qur'an lacks serious credibility right from the beginning.
To cap it all, Uthman did the Muslim world a terrible disservice by having alternative Quranic synopsis burnt.
This is intellectual dishonesty perpetrated by Uthman and aided by unannointed Zaid.

It's amazing Muslims are not disturbed that the Qur'an they hold today was rejected by the best of reciters approved by Prophet Muhammad himself.

Narrated `Abdullah bin `Amr: I heard the Prophet saying, “Learn the recitation of Qur’an from four persons: Ibn Mas`ud, Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Ubayy and Mu`adh bin Jabal”[2].

Narrated Masruq: `Abdullah bin Masud was mentioned before `Abdullah bin `Amr who said, “That is a man I still love, as I heard the Prophet saying ‘Learn the recitation of Qur’an from four from `Abdullah bin Mas`ud – he started with him—Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudaifa, Mu`adh bin Jabal and Ubayy bin Ka`b”[3] .

Muhammed never mentioned Zaid, yet he was the one who compiled the Qur'an we have today. A Qur'an rejected by reciters anointed by Muhammad himself.

This goes to show the Prophet himself wouldn't approve of the uthmanic codex Muslims parade up and down as the true Qur'an.

Christianity Etc › The Synoptic Quranic Versions- the so called preservation of the Qur'an by SIRTee15(op): 1:36am On Apr 21, 2024*

While Muhammad was alive, he chose 4 of his closest sahabas and entrusted the recitation of the Quran to them.

Muhammad commanded all his followers to learn the Quran from them.
The four chosen by the prophet were specifically:
1. Abdulla Ibn Mas’ud
2. Salim (a freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa)
3. Mu’adh bin Jabal
4. Ubay bin Ka’b. (Sahih Bukhari 6.61.521)

Years after Muhammad died, Abu Bakr, the first caliph decided to compile the Quran, fearing it would be lost.

Did Abu Bakr consult any one of the 4 men that Muhammad personally chose? NO.
Instead Abu Bakr instructed Zaid Ibn Thabit, who was a scribe, to do the job.

Did Zaid consult or request help from any one of the 4 men that Muhammad chose? NO.

Were the great early Quran teachers UPSET that they were ignored and rejected? YES! They were FURIOUS!

They already had their own Quran codices.

Yet Zaid ibn Thabit finished compiling the first official Quran without input from the four….

The 2nd caliph, Umar already had doubts about the authenticity of any compiled Qur'an being original, and he admitted much of the Qur'an is lost.
He said: “Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Quran, for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Quran has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is left of the Qur'an” (As-Suyuti, Itqan, part 3, page 72)

In Sahih Bukhari 6.61.527 – “Ubayy was the best reciter yet we leave out some of what he recites.”

By the time the 3rd caliph, Uthman, came to power, there were many versions floating around. The books of the 4 great teachers and other hafiz had spread throughout the empire and were used widely and gained popularity.

Due to this confusion, the 3rd Caliph Uthman instructed Zaid ibn Thabit to EDIT his Quran again, which he had compiled years earlier under Abu Bakr. The purpose was to come up with a standard and final official version for correct recitation.

Once that was done, Uthman ordered the burning of the rest of the versions including those of the 4 great teachers personally hand-picked by Muhammad. Sadly, Muhammad was no longer around to disapprove of the recklessness and abuse of power.

Abdulla Ibn Masud gave a passionate speech as Uthman’s henchmen were burning his Quran, tearfully declaring that he knew the Quran better than anyone else..

“By Allah other than Whom none has the right to be worshipped! There is no Sura revealed in Allah’s Book but I know at what place it was revealed, and there is no verse revealed in Allah’s Book but I know about whom it was revealed. And if I know that there is somebody who knows Allah’s Book better than I, and he is at a place that camels can reach, I would go to him.”

Ibn masud refuse to give up his own Qur'an till death and even taught it in mosques to his followers in far away Baghdad.
He rejected the Qur'an compiled by Zaid saying he cannot abandon what he learnt from the prophet himself.

I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs when Zaid was still a childish youth - must I now forsake what I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah?” (Ibid., p. 15)

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Christianity Etc › Re: What Was Wrong With Abubakar's Quran: Perfect Preservation Of The Quran by SIRTee15: 12:57am On Apr 21, 2024

gaskiyamagana:
Good jargon -jargons to make Quran of Islam looks like Bible of Christianity that was founded on FICTION FALLACY FALSEHOOD FABRICATION MISINTERPRETATION and MISREPRESENTATION of true God and messengers especially prophet Isa (asw).

Even more disturbing is the fact that ibn masud is not the only Muhammed's anointed reciter that rejected the Qur'an compiled by Zaid. Ubay also rejected uthman codex and held on to his own version of quran.

Muhammed had told his companions to learn Qur'an from 4 people- these include ibn masud and ibn Ubay. Both of them rejected the uthman codex.

4719. It is related from Ibn ‘Abbas that ‘Umar said, “Ubayy was the one of us with the best recitation, yet we leave some of the words of Ubayy. Ubayy said, ‘I took it from the mouth of the Messenger of Allah and WILL NOT LEAVE IT for anything.’ Allah Almighty says, ‘Whenever We abrogate an ayat or cause it to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or equal to it.’ (2:106)” (Aisha Bewley, Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, Chapter 69. Book of the Virtues of the Qur’an, VIII: The reciters among the Companions of the Prophet)

Islamic scholars know that Ubai Ibn Ka’b had a compilation of the Quran that differed from the current version, which was compiled primarily by Zaid Ibn Thabit.
Among the differences we know of between Zaid & Ubai’s Qurans, was the fact that Ubai’s Quran had two additional surahs, al-Hafd and al-Khal'.

This problem is acknowledged by Umar in the Hadith. In Sahih Bukhari, Vol. VI, #527, Umar noted that, despite the fact that Ubai was called the greatest reciter of the Quran by Muhammad, two of the Surahs in Ubai’s Quran were not put in Zaid’s codex.

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. VI, #527 “Narrated Ibn Abbas: ‘Umar said “Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Quran) yet we leave some of what he recites.” (2:106)’”

Ubai’s codex of the Quran was the standard version used in Syria before Uthman ordered all manuscripts that did not agree with the one compiled by Zaid et al. to be burned. Many still know Ubai’s surahs today! These surahs have not been lost, they have been REJECTED by the Muslim leaders!

According to Surah 3:3-4, these leaders bring a heavy doom on themselves and their followers.

Ubai surahs were not abrogated by Allah, they were abrogated by Zaid and those who chose his text.
The Quran promises abrogated or forgotten things are replaced by Allah with something similar or better (Surah 2:106). How could this be done after Muhammad has passed away?

Zaid et al. should have accepted Ubai’s surahs even if they were only found with Ubai, since they accepted portions found only with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari (Bukhari, Vol. VI, #509, #510), and Ubai’s credentials exceeded that of Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari.

As we can see the so called preservation of the Qur'an is intellectual dishonesty.

Christianity Etc › Re: What Was Wrong With Abubakar's Quran: Perfect Preservation Of The Quran by SIRTee15: 12:13am On Apr 21, 2024

gaskiyamagana:
Good jargon -jargons to make Quran of Islam looks like Bible of Christianity that was founded on FICTION FALLACY FALSEHOOD FABRICATION MISINTERPRETATION and MISREPRESENTATION of true God and messengers especially prophet Isa (asw).

TenQ see as this one is fighting the truth. Denying the truth won't make it false.

Take this and argue with it ....

When informed that Zaid’s text was to receive official status, Ibn Masud reacted indifferently:

Abdullah Ibn Masud said, “I recited from the Messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs which I had perfected before Zaid Ibn Thabit had embraced Islam.” (The Codices of Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy Ibn Ka'b, p. 66 – citing Ibn Abi Dawud’s Kitab al-Masahif, p. 17)

“I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs when Zaid was still a childish youth - must I now forsake what I acquired directly from the Messenger of Allah?” (Ibid., p. 15)

Christianity Etc › Re: What Was Wrong With Abubakar's Quran: Perfect Preservation Of The Quran by SIRTee15: 10:53pm On Apr 20, 2024

TenQ:
The problem is that Muslims still need to tell us exactly where the Qur'an of Mohammed was kept.

Was it with Aisha?

Aisha mutilated it

Christianity Etc › Re: Abu Discussed With A Christian About Muslims Worshipping Kaaba by SIRTee15: 9:46pm On Apr 20, 2024

Someone should tell me the difference btw these two set of stone worshippers....

Funny enough both insist they are worshiping God and not the stone. One Eledumare the other Allah.

Christianity Etc › Re: Abu Discussed With A Christian About Muslims Worshipping Kaaba by SIRTee15: 9:45pm On Apr 20, 2024

Deception of the highest order.
Shikenah Glory of God physically dwells in the tabernacle when Israelites used to bow to the temple. That's why it's called holy temple.

People get killed when they enter the tabernacle in the temple and become careless. The presence of God in the temple will not tolerate corruption to his holiness.
Israelites didn't bow down to the temple but the glory of God and his presence in the temple.
So when Israelites see the temple, they know they are looking as a structure filled with the presence of God.

Muslims bow down to a black stone that's not holy in anyway. A stone that had been stolen, mutilated and thrown back into the kabba because it was useless to the people who stole it.

What U guys do is paganism. Associating stone with God is idolatry and he hates it.

Deuteronomy 16
22 and do not erect a sacred stone for worship, for these the Lord your God hates.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 9:32pm On Apr 20, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
What name did Moses gave Israelites in the Bible book of Deuteronomy 6:4?

Answer my question. We dealing with new testament here not old testament.
What name did Jesus call God when he was dying on the cross.
What name of God did Jesus tell his disciples not to swear on during the beatitudes sermon. He told them. not to swear by God's name, what's the name?

Christianity Etc › Re: What Was Wrong With Abubakar's Quran: Perfect Preservation Of The Quran by SIRTee15: 9:18pm On Apr 20, 2024

TenQ:
It could be a conspiracy between Aisha and her father Abubakar to tear off pages of the written Quran to wipe off evidence.

This was probably why Abubakar had to do a new Quran while pretending that the Quran of Mohammed was lost.

At least the five times breastfeeding was recited but somehow it did not make it into the Quran edited by Zaid.

Hmm I didn't even consider abubakar's angle.
You right, Aisha would not dare pull such move without backing of a powerful person.
That's why abubakar refused to consult the best reciters of his time such as ibn mosood to compile the Koran...instead he chose a small boy he could easily manipulate.
Ibn mosood was one of the reciters Muhammad recommended for those who wanted to memorise the Koran and already compiled his own Koran when abu ordered the compilation of the Koran.

The question is why didn't Abu seek counsel from ibn mosood? The answer is now clear. I'm sure his Koran contain verses of breast feeding adult and stoning of women.

Its pertinent to note ibn mosood rejected the uthman codex until his death. He said he will never abandon the Koran he leant from Muhammed himself to embrace that of Zaid who mohammed never rated as a great reciter.

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 9:12pm On Apr 20, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
My Lord and my God is not God's name in the Hebrews Scriptures that's why God's word says God made Moses a God! Exodus 7:1

How did Jesus call God. When Jesus said do not swear by God's name, what name was he referring to?

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 7:54pm On Apr 20, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
So if someone called Ayélála while Ayélála is not what he saw it simply means they exclaimed at the sight of something amazing just as Thomas also did not that he saw his God!

Don't U get it.
Yorubas don't care if U call ayelala anyhow. It's not abomination.

But calling the name of God carelessly in Judaism is blasphemy.

Christianity Etc › Re: What Was Wrong With Abubakar's Quran: Perfect Preservation Of The Quran by SIRTee15: 7:31pm On Apr 20, 2024

TenQ:
I am sure I gave you evidence for things I wote and did not ask you for any memorised history lessing from you.
1. Is it true that I showed you that the Quran was collected BEFORE the death of Mohammed?
Evidence: Sahih al-Bukhari 3810
2. Is it True that AFTER Mohammed's death, the Quran was collected again by by Abubakar from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart)and with Khuza`ima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba
Evidence: Sahih al-Bukhari 4679

Here it is the evidence you require:
Sahih al-Bukhari 4679
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:
who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama..... So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and `Umar. So I started locating Qur'anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuza`ima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):-- "Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128) The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with `Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, `Umar's daughter.

Even if you assume that Mohammed collected the Quran in piles of Bones, pachments, leaves of date palms, did Mohammed also collected the Quran in the heart of some men AND particularly with Khuza`ima for which he kept two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba?
Can you see how interrogations of bogus claims about any event break down inherent falsehood?

This still does not answer the Question:
Where is the Collected Quran of Mohammed?

From my side, no human being is my ENEMY here on earth because every human is created in the image of God.
I don't want you to go to hell through the deception of Mohammed: thus a a friend, my duty is to show you the true Islam of Mohammed different from the Islam his followers tell you to memorise.

If a friend of yours is about buying a fake plot of land from a 419 at a cost of N30 million Naira: will you do everything within your power to show your friend that the photocopies of the title deeds of the land is fake? Or will you keep quiet and watch till your friend is swindled of his savings and livelihood?

Moreover, why are you angry with me?
Don't you believe in the DESTINY of Allah again?
Is it untrue that Allah is the one who has written for me to Oppose Islam on Nairaland
If this is True, Im I not doing the will of Allah according to Islam?

This is another history lesson which contradicts Sahih al-Bukhari 3810

Sahih al-Bukhari 3810
Narrated Qatada:
Anas said, "The Qur'an was collected in the lifetime of the Prophet (ﷺ) by four (men), all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubai, Mu`adh bin Jabal, Abu Zaid and Zaid bin Thabit." I asked Anas, "Who is Abu Zaid?" He said, "One of my uncles."

Does this Hadith say that the Quran was collected DURING THE LIFETIME of Mohammed?

Is it UNTRUE that that Mohammed re-arranged or ordered the sequence of the Surah of the Quran?
Recall that the Qur'an was not arranged in chapters and verses based on revelation and this arrangement was done by Mohammed himself.

Was the Quran ordered in chapters on piles of Bones, pachments, leaves of date palms and did Mohammed also ordered the Quran in the heart of some men AND particularly with Khuza`ima where he kept two Verses ?

Questions always betray the cascades of fables used in supporting Islam.

Evidence for Breastfeeding Adults in the Quran
Sunan an-Nasa'i 3307
It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
"One of the things that Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed" -(one of the narrators) Al-Harith said (in his narration): "One of the things that were revealed in the Qur'an"- "was that ten known breast-feedings make marriage prohibited, then that was abrogated and changed to five known breast-feedings. Then the Messenger of Allah passed away when this was something that was still being recited in the Qur'an."

The other wives of Mohammed detests Breastfeeding of Adults and their argument was that it was just a conscession by Mohammed to Salim

Sunan an-Nasa'i 3324
It was narrated that 'Urwah said:
"The rest of the wives of the Prophet refused for anyone to enter upon them on the basis of that type of breast-feeding, meaning breast-feeding of an adult. They said to 'Aishah: 'By Allah, we think that what the Messenger of Allah told Sahlah bint Suhail to do was a concession which was granted by the Messenger of Allah only with regard to breast-feeding Salim. By Allah, no one will enter upon us, nor see us on the basis of this type of breast-feeding.'"

Did you see that Breastfeeding Adults was recited in the Quran and suddenly it disappeared?

Have a nice day sir.
Please let's call it a day sir.
If Islam was true, it wouldn't be difficult answering any Questions because the Truth cannot be shaken!

Salam Alaikum!

This is brutal. They couldn't reply to the breastfeeding adult rebuttal.
So Muhammed actually approved women to breast feed adult men. Wonderful.

But TenQ do U actually think goat came in and ate the paper of the adult breastfeeding and stoning of women.
Remember it was Aisha who said a goat came in and ate the paper. Nobody to corroborate her story.
Do U actually believe that story from Aisha. Remember Aisha was already being accused of adultery and she didn't like the idea of men coming upon her for breastfeeding.
So I'm not surprised those Quranic verses were 'eaten by goat' while in her custody.

Ohyoudidn't, Explore2xmore, expanse something to ponder on....
What actually happened to the paper of adult breastfeeding and stoning of women in the custody of Aisha?

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 7:22pm On Apr 20, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Yorùbá believe Olódùmarè is the one all other Gods are work for they don't call any of them IDOLS!

Whatever they call them is not my business. The point is to show U ayelala is not the supreme God in Yoruba pantheon. He's likely orisha or whatever....

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 7:20pm On Apr 20, 2024

AbuTwins:
You still haven't proven That Thomas believed Jesus as God!

Theos can be god too yet you keep writing God all the time to buttress your falsehood!

I hope U know that actual conversation wasnt in koine greek so bringing up Theos or theon is irrelevant. Theos wasnt used in that conversation.

Thomas must have said my Adonai! My elohim or Eli or my Yahweh. And these are the names that should not be called in vain. Why is Thomas personalising the name of God in vain? Why is he calling upon God in vain?

The phrase 'my God was mentioned more than 125 times in bible. It always have to with prayer, supplication or meditation directed to almighty God, it was never used for exclamation mark.

Jesus on the cross cried out 'Eli, Eli'meaning my God, my God....this was a direct communication from Jesus to his Father and not an exclamation mark or sign of grief.

No where in the bible is the phrase my God known for exclamation or surprise, but some divinity denials wants to turn logic on his head when Thomas mentioned it.

AbuTwins:
This is of no use!

If I see something surprising I say Subhanallah (Glory be to Allah)!

That does not mean whatever is in front of me when I'm surprised is what I am referring to as Glory be to Allah!

Thomas never worshiped Allah and he's not an Arab. The Arabic culture and the way Allah is expressed differs from Jewish culture.
U don't call the name of God in vain in Jewish culture.

AbuTwins:
And Jesus told same Thomas that he had a God who is our God!
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” John 20:17

Once again study christology and then we can discuss the hypostasis union of Jesus.

AbuTwins:
What Thomas said was Theos!

What Jesus used above for his God was Theon!

If I show U where Theos was used for God the Father, would U accept Thomas did call Jesus God.
because the word theos was used for God over 1000 times in the new testament.
Starting with John 3.16- For God so loved the world...the God in the verse is theos.

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 5:39pm On Apr 20, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Ọlọ́run or Elédùmarè came with Àjàyí Crowder's translation and the word IDOL comes with British mentality from what Yorùbá people believe all are Gods nothing like IDOL it's your own religion that refers to their Gods as IDOLS!

Eledumare predates the Yoruba bible and Ajayi crowther.
Where do U think Yorubas got the words odu, odumare, osumare.

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 3:03pm On Apr 20, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Most of you only stays within one locality and start claiming you're knowledgeable.

Have you been to any other place apart from where they born you?

In Yorùbá land here when people see what amazes them it's the name of their God they will shout in amazement.

Go to Ìlàjẹ in Ondo state you will hear them shout:

"Ayélála Ìgbòkokò!"

That's "My God" in their own languages.

Does it mean they saw their God each time they utter such or they're greeting their God?

Ayelala is the name of an idol not God. Yoruba call God Olorun or Eledumare.
And idol worshippers never forbade anybody to use the name of their deity anyhow.
Its even common for them to swear or curse in the name of their deity.
Try another trick.

Yoruba didn't use the word 'Olorun mi o' as exclamation mark until they extrapolated it from the English language oh my God

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 2:41pm On Apr 20, 2024

AbuTwins:
Please be sane!

Satan was called God in 2 Cor 4:4, is it not Blasphemy too?

A Roman Governor was called God in Acts 12:22 is it not Blasphemy too?

This is what Thomas said “Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου", literally the Lord of me and the God of me.
If this is an exclamation mark from the mouth of a Jew, then U living in obvious denial and living in delulu land

AbuTwins:
Whenever you are surprise what do you say? Probably, Jesus!

What did Thomas say? My Lord and my God!

At best, he was referring to Yahweh in surprise as none of the disciples know Jesus as God during the time!

The Exodus verse you used mentions Yahweh not Jesus or god/God used for humans and Satan!

Let me even ask U a question. When did we start using oh my God as exclamation mark and what's the etymology of the phrase, which language did it come from?

Oh my God originated from the English language. Thomas never spoke English and there's no such exclamation mark in ancient aramaic or hebrew language.

What U guys are doing is extrapolation of the modern phrase oh my God into ancient language.
There's no evidence such phrase existed during the time of jesus in any language at all.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/oh-my-god/

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 2:31pm On Apr 20, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
So the title "GOD" is the name Moses talked about when he said Israelites shouldn't use God's name in vain shey?

Abeg stop quoting me because small time now you will start using multiple monikers to insult me claiming you're many people!

Thomas said “Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου", literally meaning the Lord of me and the God of me.

If this is an exclamation mark coming from the mouth of a Jew, and it not blasphemy then I don't know what else to say to U.

Delusion is free.

A Muslim here has finally admitted Jesus is divine while a Christian continues to wallow in deliberate self inflicting ignorance.

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 2:18pm On Apr 20, 2024

AbuTwins:
Apology Accepted!

Jesus is not divine but human!
“My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed. John 20:28
This is simply an exclamation as he was surprised from the context!
Thomas referred to Jesus as Lord (or master) and God (Theos). Theos was used for Satan in 2 Cor 4:4 and for a Roman Governor in Acts 12:22 and they were not called ''God".

At that time Thomas spoke there was no knowledge of trinity then! Jesus was believed to be a Prophet by the disciples!
In Luke 29 from 18 we read:
One of them, named Cleopas, asked Him, “Are You the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in recent days?” “What things?” He asked. “The events involving Jesus of Nazareth,” they answered. “This man was a prophet, powerful in speech and action before God and all the people.

Also the verse did not say Jesus you are my God and my Lord? It is an exclamation! Anyone can be master or god!

Jesus had a God who is our God!
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Jesus worships his God!
Luke 6:12
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Matthew 14:23
After he (Jesus) had sent them away, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray.

Luke 5:16
Yet he (Jesus) frequently withdrew to the wilderness to pray.

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he (Jesus) fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

U guys don't get it....
Thomas couldnt have said 'my God' as an expression of shock or exclamation mark.
Its blasphemy!!!
The 4th commandment clearly states thou shall not call the name of God in vain!!!

Exodus 20
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Thomas is a Jew who is well acquainted with mosaic law. He knows its blasphemy to see Jesus and shout 'my God's as expression of shock.

If Thomas said My God to Jesus, he actually meant it.

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 1:46pm On Apr 20, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
What correlation has this nonsense got to do with my post?

How can Thomas use God's name as an exclamation mark as U claim when he knows Moses law doesn't allow it.
A Jew for that matter. He saw Jesus and he shouted 'my God'as expression of shock!!!
Very funny

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 12:36pm On Apr 20, 2024

Ohyoudidnt:
In light of this, the passage in John where Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord and my God" can be seen as a recognition of Jesus' authority and divine nature, rather than a literal assertion that Jesus is the one true God. It highlights the profound relationship between Jesus and God the Father.

Ohyoudidn't so now admit Jesus has a divine nature. Abi is this not what I'm reading from U.

Oh my God what a glorious day to behold.

I've always known U are too intelligent not to see the truth when faced with one.

TenQ our friend is gradually gravitating towards the truth.
Abutwins let me educate U so that U too will see the truth. I apologise if I detail your thread. Forget about bible manuscripts, Jesus is divine- that is the truth.

Fellow Muslims, we may argue back and forth on whether Jesus is God. But only a very dishonest Muslim will deny the divinity of Christ, It's just too obvious.

Cc Qasim expanse antiChristian don't be left out in this truth seeking revelation.

Shalom

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Thomas Called Jesus, My Lord And My God. Jesus Didn't Say, I Am Not God. by SIRTee15: 12:29pm On Apr 20, 2024

MaxInDHouse:
Three weeks ago my colleague had an accident and almost got burnt he narrowly escaped and when he came around one of our business associates shouted "My God!" so our friend who was involved in an accident is now his God shey?

Nonsense and Ingredients!

Do not call the name of your God in vain. The 4th commandment.

“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Christianity Etc › Re: Abu Chats With Two Christians about Bible translations not being the same by SIRTee15: 12:06pm On Apr 20, 2024

AbuTwins:
For the last time I am warning you to create your thread on that if you can't discuss on the OP!
Stop derailing the thread once again!

U can do nothing!!! I will give u hot if U continue to harp on what I know nothing about.
Only a stupid mod will take useless action when we talking about variation of manuscripts in religious book.
When we ask questions about the Koran dont U guys come and start quoting the bible?

I will haunt u and expose your fraudulent Quran here on nairaland.

Besides U have not answered my question.

If we Christians had burnt all our manuscripts after production of KJV bible- just like uthman did with the different Koranic translations, how will U know about Johnnie comma?

Answer the question.

Christianity Etc › Re: Abu Chats With Two Christians about Bible translations not being the same by SIRTee15: 11:42am On Apr 20, 2024

AbuTwins:
Whether it is a lie or not you can open your thread on that and tag me!
If you have nothing else about the OP then keep mute!

Abeg i no won report anyone to the mods for derailing thread today!

Whenever you are cornered in your scriptures you will quickly move to the Qur'an as if you understand the Qur'an more than your Bible!

The Bible that you are ignorant about!

Remove the log in your eyes b4 seeking the pin in another eye.
U cannot be talking of variation in biblical manuscripts when U have a BIGGER PROBLEM IN YOUR KORAN.

The miracle of the Koran is that it's well preserved right from the time of Muhammed but investigation into this claim shows the Koran was disjointed with multiple translations some of which are permanently lost.

Tell me where is the verse of breastfeeding male adults in your Koran today. Where has it gone?

Evidence for Breastfeeding Adults in the Quran
Sunan an-Nasa'i 3307
It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
"One of the things that Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed" -(one of the narrators) Al-Harith said (in his narration): "One of the things that were revealed in the Qur'an"- "was that ten known breast-feedings make marriage prohibited, then that was abrogated and changed to five known breast-feedings. Then the Messenger of Allah passed away when this was something that was still being recited in the Qur'an."

Did you see that Breastfeeding Adults was recited in the Quran and suddenly it disappeared?

Christianity Etc › Re: Abu Chats With Two Christians about Bible translations not being the same by SIRTee15: 11:26am On Apr 20, 2024

Expanse2020:
Yoruba adage said one man cannot stand as two people.....
Abeggiii everyone one get his own Soul stop that lie fed into your brain..... Worship true one God
Jesus is a servant just like me to his master the creator, he didn't call himself God stop feedings ur soul a lie
He respected his maker he can't do anything except by the permission of our maker, abeg rest
If he know he will die on the cross why is it beggining his soul, Abi na spirit to stop the crucifixion...🤣🤣😂😂😂🤣

Tell me what did Qur'an say Muslims should do if Allah truly has a son?

Christianity Etc › Re: Abu Chats With Two Christians about Bible translations not being the same by SIRTee15: 11:23am On Apr 20, 2024

AbuTwins:
Be clear! What exactly is wrong?

When the originals of a document is lost and the earliest copies of copies of the New Testament available are from mid 4th-5th Centuries?
That's how many years after Jesus?

As much as possible i don't entertain derailing my thread. You can create your thread on any Islamic clarification you need and i will oblige you when I have time. And if you become abusive I'll either report you or leave you alone!

1. How sure are you that any of Jesus's contemporaries wrote any of the codex?
2. The Qur'an has been proven to be memorized by millions up till today! So Preservation is easy from generation to generation! This can't be said of the Bible!

Codex Sinaiticus: Dated to the mid-4th century, it contains the full New Testament along with parts of the Old Testament.
Codex Vaticanus: Also from the 4th century, it includes most of the New Testament.
Codex Alexandrinus: From the 5th century, it contains the entire New Testament.
Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus: From the 5th century, it contains parts of the New Testament that had been overwritten by the writings of St. Ephrem.

Its a big lie that the Koran is well preserved either written or memory.

Even Muhammed's companions disagreed on the verses of the Koran, that's why uthman was forced to unify the koran.

The verse of son of Adam and seven valleys used to be recited during the time of Muhammed but has disappeared from the koran.

The verse of female breastfeeding and stoning of women used to recited during the time Muhammed and even enacted as punishment but it's lost and no longer in the Koran.
Aisha said a goat came into the house and ate the paper it was written on.

Abdullah bin 'Umar reportedly said: "Let none of you say, 'I have memorised the whole of the Qur'an.' How does he know what all of it is? Much of the Qur'an is lost. Let him say instead, 'I have memorised what's left of the Qur'an.'" (Jalal ad-Deen as-Suyuti, al-Itiqan fee 'Uloom al-Qur'an, Cairo: al-Halabi, 1935, vol. 2, p. 25)

Ibn Abbas reported ... [Umar said] Allah sent Muhammad (saw) with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the verse of the Rajam (stoning for adultery) and we did recite this verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, "By Allah, we do not find the verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book" (Sahih al-Bukhari 6830; vol 8, bk 82, no 817)

Now the question is where is the verse of stoning for adultery in today's Koran?

Christianity Etc › Re: Abu Chats With Two Christians about Bible translations not being the same by SIRTee15: 10:57am On Apr 20, 2024

AbuTwins:
Abu vs Christian 1 and 2 Part 1

Christian 1- The Bible is wholly the word of God!

Abu - Which Bible?

Christian 2 - We have one Bible! Why do you ask which Bible?

Abu - No the Bible is not one. Apart from the fact that some Bible has 73 Books, others have 66 books, 82 books, 83 Books, etc. There are also KJV, RSV, NASB, ESV, CSB and many more!

Christian 1 - But they are all the same Bible. All scriptures are the same! This KJV i have with me will be the same in those other Bible translations you mentioned. The extra Books are what we termed Apocrypha! The main Protestant Bible has 66 Books with 27 Books of the new testament!

Abu - What does Apocrypha mean?

Christian 2 - Not Genuine! Obscure or something like that! So those books were rejected by the Church.

Abu - Do you think the KJV is entirely the same with the RSV or the ESV?

Christian 1 - All Bibles are meant to be the same since it is the word of God!
Christian 2 - More so the Bible says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Abu - The Bible cannot talk. There must be someone writing your scripture. You can say Paul said that in the 2nd Book of Timothy 3:16.
So the Apocrypha is not scripture but some Christians agree to it as scripture? Why is there no consensus on what is scripture and what is not? When did your Church fix the Bible Books to be 66 Books and deem others Apocrypha?

Christian 2 -
Christian 1 - I think around the 14 or 15th Century or so!

Abu - Who fixed the Bible to be 66 Books?

Christian 1 - I think it started from Martin Luther when the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church!

Abu - The Protestants Protested and rioted? Let's talk about that later! Back to our KJV vs RSV!
Your claim is that they are the same. My claim is that they are not the same.

Can you google Bible hub Matthew 6:13 while your brethren open it up in his KJV?

Christian 2 - KJV: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

Abu - In the RSV this part is omitted in many modern translations as it is not found in some of the earliest manuscripts.

Christian 1 - How is that possible? There must be a mistake.

Abu - There is no mistake. Let me quickly show you one more verse called "Johannine Comma" before I leave and that's 1 John 5:7-8

Christian 1: KJV: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Abu - Look for that same verse in the RSV and you'll see that it is missing in modern translations as it is not found in early Greek manuscripts.

Christian 2 - I can't find it. There must be an explanation for the omission!

Abu - I have to leave for Salah! It is not an omission. It was deliberate. The KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus as its source document while the RSV used the Greek critical texts for the New testament! The former is a very much later manuscript than the later! And KJV is the most popular translation of the Bible. Hope you agree the Bible is not just one now?

Christian 1 and 2 -

Abu - Let's meet sometime later. I have to go now! Bye!

The problem is uthman burnt the different translation of Koran that existed b4 he became caliphate and approved only that compiled by Zaid.
Uthman even burnt the Koran compiled by people Muhammed said are the best of reciters.
Ibn mosood refused to accept the uthmanic codice U people have today. He continued to recite his own Koran until his death. The most interesting things is in mosood used to teach and remind Muhammed the Koran. Muhammed praises him as one of the best reciters and told people should learn from ibn mosood. When he died, his Koran was burnt.

If we Christians had done what uthman did to the different Korans with our manuscripts. Imagine if king James had ordered all bibles and old testament manuscripts to be burnt after the production of KJV bible.
Tell me how will U know about the johanine comma...U tell me.

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