₦airaland Forum

Ohyoudidnt:
You don't have convincing proof on the age of Mary? Is this to be left to speculation?

The mention of Jairus’ daughter as a “little girl” at 12 years old reflects a term used affectionately or to denote youthfulness rather than literal age.

In ancient Jewish culture, it was not uncommon for girls to be married at a young age, sometimes as early as onset of puberty.

The concept of childhood and adolescence in terms of age ranges and societal roles differed significantly from modern standards.

Ohyoudidnt:
You don't have convincing proof on the age of Mary? Is this to be left to speculation?

The mention of Jairus’ daughter as a “little girl” at 12 years old reflects a term used affectionately or to denote youthfulness rather than literal age.

In ancient Jewish culture, it was not uncommon for girls to be married at a young age, sometimes as early as onset of puberty.

The concept of childhood and adolescence in terms of age ranges and societal roles differed significantly from modern standards.

Ohyoudidnt:
@ANTIIISLAM TENQ SIRTEE15 ADVOCATEJARE MIGHTYSPARROW

What do you say?

Ohyoudidnt:
[size=15pt]How Old Was Mary When Jesus Was Born[/size]?
The Bible does not tell us directly how old Mary was when she gave birth to Jesus.

“This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18).

During this time in history, Jewish girls would have been betrothed (engaged) to their husbands as early as the age of 12 years old. Scholars believe Mary would have been somewhere between 12-16 years old when she had Jesus.

If Mary was 12 this is also teenage with the other ages varying from early teens. There are only 7 years of teenage. 16 just crosses the mid teenage.

AntiChristian:
A woman has no marriage age in Islam. And marriage is not connected to fasting!

Marriage is not connected to fasting! Even an adult who is sick, breastfeeding, having menses or parturition blood, traveling or very old may not fast.


It won't make sense to hypocrites!



So marriage and fasting are not connected at all as you put it!

I know a kid of 8 years who fasted over 25 days in Ramadan in the past!

Ohyoudidnt:
You are fixated thanks to the falsity of the media. You sure have seen other ages outside 6 but choose to stick with that. It's your choice and any other that so agrees. Maybe you will get to know absolutely and maybe not however much or less it matters to you.

The actual age of Aisha when she married Prophet Muhammad was likely in her late teens.

Claims of Aisha being 6 years old:

Critics allege that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six and the marriage was consummated when she was nine. This claim is based on a saying attributed to Aisha herself in Sahih Bukhari.
However, historical records and analysis suggest that this claim may not be accurate. The context of seventh-century Arabia, where adulthood was defined by the onset of puberty, indicates that Aisha would have been considered an adult at a younger age than in modern times.

Claims of Aisha being 9 years old:

Some Muslims believe in the accuracy of the saying regarding Aisha’s young age, arguing that she must have entered puberty early based on the norms of the time.
However, there are doubts about the reliability of this specific hadith, as historical records indicate discrepancies in estimating ages without formal documentation.


Teenage marriage perspective:

Various historical accounts and analyses suggest that Aisha was likely in her late teens when she married Muhammad. Factors such as her participation in battles and comparisons with other individuals’ ages support this view.
The marriage between Muhammad and Aisha served social and political functions common in Arabian society at that time, rather than being solely based on personal desires.

cc: Honesttalk21

Ohyoudidnt:
Thank you for sharing.

Is age and maturity a determining factor for worship. Is it not said that you teach them when young so they don't depart from the path? A young child is not obligated (to be forced to do something or feel that you must do something) to fast for good reason such as development requiring nutrition and less strain which may come from the fast.

Now in the case of Aisha may Allah be pleased with her different ages have been suggested at the time of her marriage to the prophet.

However for a lady or even a male to be married taking a part of Quran 4:6 which shouldn't be looked at in isolation of the preceding verses; "Try, test, well the orphans, before reaching maturity with regard [the duties of] religion and [before] they can [legally] manage their own affairs, until they reach the age of marrying, that is, until they have become eligible for it through puberty or [legal] age; then, if you perceive in them maturity, that is, right [judgement] in matters of religion and their property, deliver their property to them; consume it not, O guardians, wastefully, without due merit, and in haste, that is, hastening to expend it, fearing, lest they should grow up, and become mature, at which time you will be obliged to hand it over to them. If any man, who is a guardian, is rich, let him be abstinent, that is, let him abstain from the orphan’s property and refrain from consuming it; if he is poor, let him consume, of it, honourably, that is, in line with the wage for his work. And when you deliver to them, the orphans, their property, take witnesses over them, that they have received it and that you are absolved [of the obligation], so that if any dispute occurs, you are able to refer to a clear proof: this is a command [intended] for guidance. God suffices as a reckoner, as a guardian of His creatures’ deeds and as a reckoner of these [deeds] (the bā’ [in bi’Llāhi] is extra)."

In analyzing the historical and religious context surrounding Aisha’s marriage to Prophet Muhammad, it becomes evident that she had fulfilled the requirements to be married when she entered into this union.

Ohyoudidnt:
Can you share the article or post a link to it?

This will enable an adequate response.

TenQ:
There is nothing beyond the power of Allah, especially in enabling a six year old baby girl to handle the sexual instrument of 50 something year old mallam

Have faith!

gaskiyamagana:
Let me help you ask more questions of your reasoning, thinking and understanding:
1. How is it possible for a person to say he went to Jerusalem and from there to heaven and come back before morning just within a night ?
2. If God don't want us to drink palm wine, why did He create Palm wine tree?

Ohyoudidnt:
What?

The Hebrew Bible, also known as Mikra (“what is read”) or TaNaKh, an acronym referring to the traditional Jewish division of the Bible into Torah (Teaching), Nevi’im (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Writings), is the founding document of the people of Israel, describing its origins, history and visions of a just society.

The word Bible, from the Greek, ta biblia(attention Tenq who forgot the ta), is plural and means “books.” This reflects the fact that the Bible is actually a collection of individual books (such as Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah, Song of Songs, and many others).

Enoch is believed to have existed before Moses based on biblical accounts, the compilation of his book after the Torah can be attributed to various factors related to canonization, theological emphasis, and historical context.

The process of canonization in Judaism and Christianity involved careful selection and recognition of certain texts as authoritative scripture. The Torah, being foundational to both faiths, was given priority in terms of inclusion in the biblical canon.

Also the he content and themes of Enoch’s book may not have aligned completely with the theological perspectives and teachings that were emphasized in the Torah. This could have influenced its later compilation and acceptance within certain religious traditions.

In summation the historical context in which these texts were written and compiled also played a role. The Torah was foundational to Israelite religion and identity, while Enoch’s book may have been seen as more esoteric or specialized in nature.

Ohyoudidnt:
What?

The Hebrew Bible, also known as Mikra (“what is read”) or TaNaKh, an acronym referring to the traditional Jewish division of the Bible into Torah (Teaching), Nevi’im (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Writings), is the founding document of the people of Israel, describing its origins, history and visions of a just society.

The word Bible, from the Greek, ta biblia(attention Tenq who forgot the ta), is plural and means “books.” This reflects the fact that the Bible is actually a collection of individual books (such as Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah, Song of Songs, and many others).

Enoch is believed to have existed before Moses based on biblical accounts, the compilation of his book after the Torah can be attributed to various factors related to canonization, theological emphasis, and historical context.

The process of canonization in Judaism and Christianity involved careful selection and recognition of certain texts as authoritative scripture. The Torah, being foundational to both faiths, was given priority in terms of inclusion in the biblical canon.

Also the he content and themes of Enoch’s book may not have aligned completely with the theological perspectives and teachings that were emphasized in the Torah. This could have influenced its later compilation and acceptance within certain religious traditions.

In summation the historical context in which these texts were written and compiled also played a role. The Torah was foundational to Israelite religion and identity, while Enoch’s book may have been seen as more esoteric or specialized in nature.

Ohyoudidnt:
Why can't you stay on the topic. We are talking about the Torah but the verse in Luke you share in support of Jesus actually reading is neither the Torah nor amongst the first five books of the Bible. Why do you insist on saying what isn't?

I had answered the question on the Torah as if this is what the Pharisee and probably Sadducee elders or whichever other priests taught or shared with Jesus I cannot validate the authenticity as Jesus accused these people of lying.

Ohyoudidnt:
The Torah or first five books includes the book of Genesis isn't It? Enoch is mentioned here isn't he? Why then is the book of Enoch not part of the Torah?

Do you see the relevance of the Torah's compilation or canonization here?

Ohyoudidnt:
It's a straight forward commonality that as individually owned written scripture were not common in Israel in the time of Jesus similarly wriitten scripture was scarce at Mecca or even Medina when Prophet Muhammad pbuh was preaching.

You keep emphasizing a Torah in Jesus hand but you failed to show a relevant point to affirm this. However you want to say it the Scrolls of Isaiah are not a part of this book.

The scrolls of Isaiah are not a part of the Pentateuch, which is comprised of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The Pentateuch is also known as the Torah, and it is considered the foundational text of Judaism.

The scrolls of Isaiah, on the other hand, are part of the Nevi'im, or the Prophets, in the Hebrew Bible. Isaiah is a book of prophecy, written by the prophet Isaiah, who lived in the 8th century BCE.

Ohyoudidnt:
How can this be a valid yardstick? You didn't challenge my statements regarding what and what didn't make the cannon or how decisions about what made it were made?

In any case when Jesus said in John 8:44, to the priests that 'You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies' was he not stating they were lying?

Were these lies devoid about lying on the content of the scripture ?

Ohyoudidnt:
As you mentioned in your earlier post regarding the Torah there individual copies of scripture were not prominent in Israel and though over 600 years after why will you expect copies to be common in Mecca when parts of the recitation were scribbled on tree backs, animal skin, rocks etc?

You see the challenge with accepting a book between hands and not revelation?


I don't follow Sam Shamoun but you may want to drop notes about his points or arguments.

Ohyoudidnt:
I clearly say I don't know. The Bible says Jesus had debates and rebuking with them. As to what extent I cannot be sure if it was just them saying what they don't do or a case of also changing content

Ohyoudidnt:
The limits or is it dangers of strictly relying on translations.

The Arabic phrase “بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ” Bayna yadayhi is used in the Quran to refer to something that was revealed or given beforehand. In this context, it signifies the previous revelations or scriptures that were sent down by Allah before the Quran. Therefore, a more accurate translation of this phrase in Quran 5:46 would be “what was revealed before.”

This translation emphasizes the continuity and interconnectedness of the divine messages throughout history, highlighting the belief in the unity of all prophets and scriptures. It underscores the idea that the Quran does not negate the teachings of previous revelations but rather confirms and completes them.

By using the phrase “بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ,” the Quran acknowledges the existence of earlier scriptures such as the Torah and the Gospel, recognizing them as legitimate sources of guidance from Allah. This inclusive approach reinforces the concept of a universal message that transcends time and space, uniting believers across different faith traditions.

in the verse 5:46, the phrase "بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ" occurs, which can be translated as "what is between your hands" or "what was revealed before". This phrase is used in reference to the previous scriptures revealed by Allah before the Quran. It serves as a reminder to believers that the message of the Quran is not something new or different, but a continuation of the divine guidance that has been sent down to mankind throughout history.

The Quran acknowledges the existence of previous scriptures, such as the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel, which were revealed to earlier prophets like Moses, David and Jesus. These scriptures contained valuable guidance and teachings for their respective communities, but over time they were either lost, corrupted, or misunderstood by people. This is why Allah sent the Quran as a final and complete revelation, to correct any errors and provide a clear and unadulterated message for all of humanity.

By using the phrase "بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ", the Quran emphasizes the continuity and interconnectedness of the divine revelations. It tells believers that the Quran is not a standalone scripture, but a confirmation and a culmination of the previous scriptures. It is a reminder that the fundamental message of all the prophets, from Adam to Muhammad, has always been the same: to worship Allah alone and to live a righteous and just life.

Ohyoudidnt:
I don't know what he learned and read from the priests and elders whom he challenged but he knew the truth by divine endowment. Recall Quran 19:30

Ohyoudidnt:
Qaala innee ‘abdullaahi aataaniyal Kitaaba wa ja’alanee Nabiyyaa

He (Jesus) said, “I am the servant of God. He has given me the Scripture, and made me a prophet.

Ohyoudidnt:
The Torah known to Jesus or the Torah Jesus held between his hands? Which is It?

When you include a book that isn't part of the Torah in your statement that isn't it's no problem reminding you.

As it is it's best you ask Jesus as the selective Biblical canon is not free of human manipulation to determine what should and shouldn't be there.

The call on you was to help antiislam show the arabic that translates to Bible in Quran 10:94 but this wasn't seen. Thanks for your time and contributions.

Ohyoudidnt:
Matthew 4:4: When tempted by Satan in the wilderness, Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 8:3, saying, “Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”
Matthew 19:18-19: In response to a rich young ruler asking what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus references Exodus 20:12-17 and Leviticus 19:18, stating, “You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
Mark 12:29-30: When asked which commandment is the most important, Jesus responds by quoting Deuteronomy 6:4-5, stating, “The most important one is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’”

These are clearly of the Torah but the knowledge Jesus has of this doesn't translate to him reading from the Torah as having scrolls in which it was written between his hands.

Jesus’ knowledge of the Torah is evident throughout the New Testament. He was born into a Jewish family and raised in a community that deeply valued and studied the Torah. As a result, Jesus was likely well-versed in its teachings from a young age. This familiarity is reflected in his discussions and debates with other religious leaders during his ministry.

Ohyoudidnt:
These are clearly of the Torah but the knowledge Jesus has of this doesn't translate to him reading from the Torah as having scrolls in which it was written between his hands.

Ohyoudidnt:
Wikipedia says The Torah is the compilation of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, namely the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. You related:



Is the Book of Isaiah amongst the first five books of the Hebrew Bible that make up the Torah? Do you not marvel at what you initially addressed me with in your statement quoted above in yourself? It is your primary scripture you are talking about and I should not point out this slip of yours to you. The scrolls of Isaiah are not a part of the Torah.



The Septuagint is a collection of Jewish scriptures that includes both canonical and non-canonical texts.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint contain different parts of the Scrolls of Isaiah

One of the most significant variations between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint occurs in Isaiah 7:14, which is a well-known prophetic passage that is traditionally understood to foretell the birth of Jesus Christ. In the Hebrew text of the Dead Sea Scrolls, this verse reads, "Behold, the young woman is with child and shall bring forth a son," while the Septuagint version of the same verse translates it as, "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son.

Ohyoudidnt:
Wikipedia says The Torah is the compilation of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, namely the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. You related:



Is the Book of Isaiah amongst the first five books of the Hebrew Bible that make up the Torah? Do you not marvel at what you initially addressed me with in your statement quoted above in yourself? It is your primary scripture you are talking about and I should not point out this slip of yours to you. The scrolls of Isaiah are not a part of the Torah.

Ohyoudidnt:
Kindly clarify so you are well understood. Did Jesus read or have the Torah between his hands or the Scrolls of Isaiah? Are the Scrolls of Isaiah the same thing as the Torah?

Assuming I get you right. What Jesus is said to have read in Luke 4:18 -19 is a rendition of Isaiah 61:1-2?

Tell then why the discrepancies as Luke 4:18-19 reads:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,o

because he has anointed me

to proclaim good newsp to the poor.

He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners

and recovery of sight for the blind,

to set the oppressed free,

19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

While Isaiah 61 reads

1. The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Concerns are emboldened.

Which captives or prisoners did Jesus free?

Which old wastes were raised and or repaired?

Does this not show confirmation with Quran 2:79 So woe to those who distort the Scripture with their own hands then say, “This is from Allah”—seeking a fleeting gain! So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned?

Or a distortion of Isaiah 61 in what is related in Lukec4:18 isn't obvious?

Ohyoudidnt:
ad hominem fallacy?

How?

My seeking clarification becomes an attack on your personality?



The Scroll of the Prophet Isaiah is a part of the Nevi’im, or the Prophets, in the Hebrew Bible. It is not a part of the Torah. The Nevi’im is the second section of the Hebrew Bible, following the Torah and preceding the Ketuvim (Writings).

Is this implying you don't know what you have as a Bible? 🤔

Selah

Ohyoudidnt:
Kindly clarify so you are well understood. Did Jesus read or have the Torah between his hands or the Scrolls of Isaiah? Are the Scrolls of Isaiah the same thing as the Torah?

Ohyoudidnt:
Did you read what you are replying to right?

My submissions are in respect of Jewish belief in Muhammad not Jesus.

In any case the Messianic Jews you refer to are more likely a smaller population than the Majority of Judaic Jews.

Some sources suggest that there are around 300,000 Messianic Jews worldwide, while others estimate the number to be much lower. In comparison, the total Jewish population is approximately 14.7 million, according to the Jewish Virtual Library.

You know very well the limitations of the Corinthians creed; who, when and why it was promulgated.

Ohyoudidnt:
There is no direct evidence in the New Testament that Jesus held a physical copy of the Torah in his hands. However, there are numerous references to Jesus’ knowledge of and familiarity with the Torah.

It is important to note that during Jesus’ time, physical copies of the Torah were not widely available. The Torah was typically written on parchment scrolls, which were expensive and time-consuming to produce. As a result, they were primarily owned by synagogues and religious institutions rather than individuals. It is unlikely that Jesus himself would have owned a physical copy of the Torah.