₦airaland Forum

bermuda1: Efficient people will understand

hahaha.
Lol.
You mean to say those that "belong"?
Hmmm!

Enigma: To keep it simple: if Jesus IS God and The Father Is God (leaving out The Holy Spirit for now), would you not say that is an issue at the heart {"foundation"} of Christianity?

the word God is a title my friend.

Ihedinobi: Point of correction, sis, this thread is not particularly focused on the Trinity. However, you have made a point I want to address. There is a heterodoxy that is fine. For instance, I don't care to go to church on Sundays, I meet with fellow believers and powwow maybe on Wednesdays or Fridays. (I don't mean me o, I do the Sunday routine more often than not.) There is no antiChristianity in that. It may be that the nature of my job does not allow meeting on Sundays or that the political atmosphere makes Sunday meetings impossible. Whatever it may be, the day of the week on which I break bread with my family is a matter of personal, say, convenience.

But there is another heterodoxy that is heresy and antiChrist. That which attacks the nature or foundation of Christianity itself is what I mean. Strictly speaking then, if the Trinity is the foundation of Christianity, then it is impossible either to accept it and be an unbeliever or reject it and be a believer. Neither of this means that the believer or unbeliever necessarily understands it to be either.

This is Christianity: Jesus is Lord, by which we mean, Jesus is God. That immediately lands anyone who believes it in the Trinity whether they understand it or not. If anyone rejects it, they reject the Trinity.

Why bother pursuing a discussion such as this then? It is because our growth in the Faith is growth in mental or intellectual appreciation of God, Who and What He is. A lot of us who do not fully appreciate Him intellectually are rendered very ineffective in many areas of our lives for God. So those who do, must help prod these ones on to greater understanding. Which is what they do engaging those who attack the doctrine. Also, it is for those who attack the doctrine because they may actually be true Christians who are reaching for greater understanding. How they react to what they are told proves whether or not there is really Christ in them. Increasing hardness of heart and stubborn refusal to learn is evidenced by deteriorating arguments. At a certain point, it becomes a "believe or die" situation and if the person is utterly under the influence of the spirit of antichrist, they start to break Scriptures. At that point, no further argument is useful to him. But since this is a public domain, further argument can serve to warn others of what happens when they claim Christianity and reject the Lordship or Godhood of its Christ.

Thus, it is not a "to your tents, O Israel" matter.

Edited

trinity is:
"foundation of chritianity"

when did it became the foundation of chrsitianity?
Forth century ce (4ce) = Apostacy.

Enigma: Well Jesus is called all these things in the book of Revelation: "The Almighty"; "The Alpha and Omega"; "The First and Last"; "The Beginning and The End".

my friend, we have gone through this befor.

YAHWEH is alpha and omega QED.

You are twisting the scriptures so that you will Give that little to the son of YAHWEH.

If i may ask.
What is wrong in having YAHWEH alone and ending that Yaweh alone is almighty? Nothing!
But for traditon.

But for the sake of church tradition that is preventing you and others from doing that, and it is forcing some to twist the scriptures.

When for the sake of employment and salary we take side against God, it is a seriouse matter.

andromida: What is the purpose of this continuous discourse about trinity ?. If someone believes in the doctrine of trinity is the person an unbeliever? If another does not believe in the doctrine of trinity is the person an unbeliever? Is this discourse going to come to a logical conclusion or will you continue to tear each other down.

Trinity believe in it or not does it prevent you from knowing God on a deeper level.?

However, if this discourse is in search of the truth by all means continue if not perhaps each to his own tent??.

trinity prevent people from knowing the one true God and that makes it a seriouse matter.

Who then do you think is behind it?

Enigma: The fact that Jesus shares several "titles" with The Father is enough to tell us that He Jesus also is God.

Just take a few examples of Jesus' titles: "The Almighty"; "Alpha and Omega"; "The First and Last"; "The Beginning and The End"; "Mighty God"; "Everlasting Father".

Y'all will have to indulge me but these just remind me of words from a favourite hymn

.

Jesus may shear the title mighty God with the father which simply means "powerful God".

But the title almighty, alpha and omega are exclusively Yahweh's.

Peace

Enigma: I know what John 17:3 says and I repeat that the apostles called Jesus God e.g. Peter, Paul, Thomas, John, author of Hebrews.

i dont wish to duel on titles but let to me, that has been part of the confusion on this forum all the while.

I have determined to to use Yahweh for almighty hence forth, as not to join in the RCC confusion.

The word God is a title, and can be carried by all that earned worship ful honor.

I will not contradict the bible with my saying but will support the bible from GENESIS to revelation, at least the almighty will know that based on what i have as the bible that he allowed to get to me i did fellow exactly without adding to it. Isaiah 5:20

if the name of God was left in the bible were it was we will not have much trouble with the title God.

Enigma: Well, the apostles believed Jesus to be God and many of them said so in the Bible e.g. Peter, Paul, Thomas, John, the author of Hebrews and so on.

Surely, friend, you are not going to accuse them too of apostasy?

but the word god is a title just like the title principle, chief, president, lord.etc.

In such that the ones attaining to that title still keep their personal names.

That we say that Jesus is God does not make him God almighty.

Afteral he himself said that his father is greater than him, this is reasonable in all sense.

The bible did not make a mistake when it said that Jesus is mighty God. Isaiah 9:6.

And when it said that Yahweh is almighty God. Exodus 6:3.

The fear of God is the begining of wisdom.

Let us just let what the bible say to stand without bending it.

Thank you my friend.
Peace

Enigma: No my friend (and I mean friend genuinely nicely); your error is that you do not realise that I pointed to the original Hebrew.

In the original Hebrew: "Yahweh" = 'Lord' while "Elohenu" = 'our God';

You people really need to stop lying and maligning others and also deceiving and misleading other people.



EDIT addendum: and your reference to the RCC here is sheer nonsense; in any event I have been sticking to the NIV which is one of the two versions dictated by the rules of engagement of this thread.

you mean that the word Yahweh was not the name of Yahweh in the OT?

You mean also that the name of Yahweh has not been removed from the bible?

Was the name of God almighty lord to the Jews and OT?

italo: I don't need to ask you what "a God" means. God is one; and "a God" means that God is more than one. You cannot hold those two positions. It is either God is ONE or Gods are more than one. If you have any other tricks, lies, forgery or manipulation that you can use to get out of this one you better come up with it so that people here will not think you are insane o.

Is Jesus God or 'a god?'




Yahweh (the Father), Jesus (the Son) and the Holy Spirit are ONE and the same Almighty God who we should worship.

2corinth 4:4 satan =god, is a lie?

so, from this we should disregard the bible and stick to your shallow idears?

*sigh*

west of my time.

ijawkid: And it escaped your memory that the father is above the son.....??

Why did u dodge that??

The trinity caused it abi??

Learn to read the bible completely.....

1 corinthians 11:3 I quoted shulda answered your mysteries but you are so blind folded so as not see it....

When that John says the son is over all,does it include the Father??

Ask yourself that question.......does it??

Learn to make absolute conclusions not half baked........

Your conclusion on Yahweh and Jesus being over all is not complete...

Go further and say that""the Father is over Jesus""

Can't you say it??mr trinitarian....

1 corinthians 15:24-28....

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
New International Version (NIV)
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over
the kingdom to God the Father after he has
destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his
enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to
be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put
everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it
says that “everything” has been put under him,
it is clear that this does not"" include"" God
himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son
himself will be made"" subject"" to him who put
everything under him, so that God may be all in
all.


If you read this scripture and you are still obstinate then I don't know how to solve your enigma's anymore........

The trinity teaching has blinded you to the point of no return.....

If Jesus will hand over the kingdom that he was given and then be made subject to the Father for all eternity so that God(Yahweh) will be everything to everyone how then does it support your spurious stance that Jesus is one with the Father in been all over everything and everyone when that Jesus is subordinate to Yahweh....

Put on your thinking caps and embrace bible truths...

It was people like your types who were so stuboorn with the trinity dogma that they went around burning those who won't gulp this dogma on a stake........

Yahweh is the GOD and Father of Jesus can't you for once accept this glaring truth and live??......

You are @ it again trying to equate Jesus with Yahweh...that will only happen in your dreams not in the bible.....

Mtsheeew!!!!!!!

Yahweh is the only one who is absolutely above all.....

Yahweh is above Jesus,the angels,man,woman,animals and everything put together....

If your eyes can't see this then go for an eye check up....

i love this so much. ^^^

@ Enigma, i believe you have a capacity to do a lot of Good to mankind.

You stood and defended the "bible" that it is not a RCC baby, but you are still standing for trinity because you belief it was adopted by the true church(catholic)

friend, the apostacy was already at work when the apostles were still alive. 1ce
2thessolonian 2:7

by the second (2ce) ce all the apostles that were a restrain to the apostacy had all died off.

just think about this.
Peace

Enigma: Some are saying Jesus was (and is?) "a God"; or that Jesus was (and is?) a "deity"; or that Jesus was (and is?) "divine".

Well, the Bible easily dismisses that nonsense.

1. We start with the famous Deuteronomy passage. Deuteronomy 6

This is the original Jewish "Shema". Here "our God" = Elohenu; while "The Lord" = Yahweh.


2. However, Paul recasts that same Shema deliberately in Christian terms in 1 Corinthians 8: 4-6

Here, "God" = theos; "Lord" = kyrios

I have pointed out elsewhere that in the Septuagint "Yahweh" is translated "Kyrios": Paul is quoted in the New Testament as though he too was using The Septuagint; Paul could not have been unaware of The Septuagint or that it translates "Yahweh" as "Kyrios" . . . .

Anyway most crucially; according to the latter passage, to say Jesus is "a god" is to make him a "so-called god"; and we know from the Bible that every so-called god is a FALSE god.

So, this argument of Jesus is "a god" is a complete non-starter.

your error is because the RCC has removed the name of Yahweh in some translations and replaced it with the "WORD" lord in the OT.

Otherwise, if you had seen that the word Yahweh you will not fall for this trap.

When paul wrote his word the shama was still carrying the names of Yahweh in all places in the OT.

This RCC action is after the death of the apostles.
Peace.

Zikkyy: You've not answered my question, but am going to let it go in the interest of peace



are you serious? you mean you go to the toilet for God's glory abi? this man don't make me say things i should not be saying this morning

hahahahahahahahaa.
Lol.

Guy you have a very good sense of humor!

Its just for the benefit of the other people reading else i will be laughing your comments, cause you are one of an interesting fellow.

All you need to do is also consider this other readers for the sake of "love" of neighbour.
Peace

italo: I know where the Bible says "honour your father and mother" but you have to show me where the Bible says "seek their consent before marriage." Or where any Christian in the Bible sought his/her parents' consent to marry. If you cannot show me, we will take it that you are teaching us a PAGAN way of having marriages.



Please show me where Jesus Christ said "a certificate of divorce should be given on the ground of adultery." If you cannot show me, or where Christians registered their marriages with civil authority, we take is as PAGAN.

And where did the Bible say Christians should marry in Church?

What about funeral ceremonies? Where did the Bible tell Christians to hold religious funeral ceremonies for the dead? Rather the Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." Do you partake in funerals? If you do, you are a PAGAN, aren't you?

how do you understand the saying "give caeser's things to caeser"?

Goshen360: Shall we then say scripture contradict itself If Rev 3:14 is meant to be/say that Christ had a beginning, how then do we interpret Hebrews 7:3

New International Version (©1984)
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

you are the one that just said "remained a priest for ever"

Goshen360: like the Son of God[/b] he remains a priest forever.

if the bible says that you will remain forever, does it means that you have no begining. Psalm 37:29.

The bible does not contradict itself but wrong knowledge like this does.

That scripture was showing how great our new high priest(Jesus) is and you out of context carry it desperately and wish to use it for trinity.

Is it not when the priest hood of Aron stoped that christ priesthood began?

So, what kind of eternal are you wishing for?

Young man, dont shot yourself on the leg oh!

Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with trinity but rather refute trinity since christ will not be a priest unto himself just like he will not be a mediator unto himself.

He took over from Aron but on a higher level by direct appointment by God for the benefit of all of mankind.

Was the former priest Aron a priest unto himself?

Christ is not in equality to Yahweh but rather christ is appeasing the almighty Yahweh on our behalf.

Goshen360: I know what you are saying.....quote me and let's debate it. Am ready interested in this your Jesus was created stuff. By the time we finish when I come online, you will be flat on the floor with all your theology punctured..... . I got load of scriptures for you but am a bit strong due to the cold. Hewever, I will respond to you when I wake up. In fact, I will love to engage a debate with you on "Jesus was created or exist eternally" on a new thread if you don't mind, so I can openly expose you.

you made it sound as though it is a threat?

Meanwhile the scriptures are staring you in the face that Jesus is the first born of all "creation"

who should we listen to?
You or the bible?

See how you contradict the bible with out of context scripture!

Hebrews chapter 7 is talking about the priest hood of Jesus, that it is in the manner of melchizedek not from father to son(without father and mother) and as such a direct appointment from God.

The reference of ETERNAL in this hebrews 7 is in reference to christ priest hood, how can you childishly attempt using it for trinity when we are not talking About priest Hood?

The maturity of reasoning of some of those in this forum is amazing.

If the bible contradict itself dont you think we should leave it?

*sigh*

Them of the bible = the how? of the restoration of God's kingdom.

italo: Where did the Bible say you should marry in Church?

Where did the Bible say register your marriage?

1. the bible says honour your father and mother, so you seek their consent befor marriage.

2. The bible says give caeser's things to caeser and God's things to God.

3. The Bible says christians should respect the superior authorities and the authority ask that marriages should be registered and it is not in conflict with God's law since christ says a certificate of divorce should be given on the ground of Adultery.

So, christians register their marriages.

Enigma: Some are saying Jesus only came into existence when He was conceived and born of the virgin Mary and that accordingly He was only a man and not God.

Well let us compare their argument with what the Bible says.

1. John 3:13

Question: Is this verse saying that Jesus came from heaven or not?


2. John 6:38

Question: Is this verse saying that Jesus came down from heaven or not?

2a. Compare the reaction of those who heard Him claim He came from heaven to the argument of those who are saying today that "he was just a man."! John 6:42

2b. And see what He tells such people! John 6:62

Questions: Son of Man? Ascend? Where He was before? Or Just a man? Ascend? To heaven? And He was in heaven before?


3. John 3:12

Question: How would Jesus be able to speak of heavenly things if He did not know those things; how would He know those things unless He was there ----- since we are not told that He had any vision like John?


4. John 3:31

Question: So who is this "one" who came from heaven and is above all?

beautiful again.

You did not add Jesus words that says

"the son can not do a single thing of his own initiative except what he SEES the father do the son does".

Question: when did the son see the father do all the things he is doing if he has not been in heaven before?

italo: Just answer, please.

What is the Christian way of handling marriage

And how are christians following the world's way of doing it?

but the bible commanded that christians should get married.

That involves making it official that the male and female wants to start a family together and consent will be given.

Zikkyy: Am waiting for truthislight to respond to a similar question. The man is yet to surface. I hope he will not pop up here after i have gone to bed. That's what he did yesterday and had the floor to himself

you are a funny guy though.

I think we have all gotten the gist, no hard feelings.

Zikkyy: You are not talking about the form of worship sir, you are more interested in the source.



Nobody. I adopted my own approach. I just ensured it's not against biblical teachings. Thats all.

then you are not a follower of christ.

Cus the bible said that followers of christ should do all things for God's glory and not you to do what you like to your own glory.

Zikkyy: ..and by celebrating Christ, who do you think am following?



Did the scripture command that i should not celebrate anniversaries? I don't think so.



Am not saying "that Christians needed it but God forgot to include it". It's not compulsory. am saying you don't consider it a sin simply because it's not recorded in the bible. Its a sin if the act is not in line with how God want us to live as Christians.

I believe you are African, so consider the African traditional marriage rite; do you think it's a sin for Christians to perform traditional marriage rites? and also kindly detail the procedure for Christians marriages as mandated by the bible. Hope you will respond.

that is parental consent.

bermuda1: Ave Totorepairer

what is "TOTO repairer"

Lol

italo: So is it Yahweh that is being talked about in Rev 22:12,13:

12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

If it is not Yahweh, then who is it?

my friend stop occupying space.

This issue have been address befor in this forum.

Go and read other threads.

frosbel: God's WORD is eternal, GOD's WORD is not a being , if I may add.

You have missed the whole point.


You say Jesus existed as an angel and the Trinitarians say he was GOD , both implying an incarnation of a spirit into a natural woman.

Let me ask you some questions :

1. If Jesus existed as an angel when was he begotten of the father
2. According to your logic if you say this happened when he was created, was he not BEGOTTEN TWICE ?
3. What do you understand by natural conception
4. Is the only difference between Jesus and us NOT that the Spirit of his father planted a SEED not a SPIRIT into the womb of MARY.
5. Is it not rather insane to suggest that an eternal spirit lived in a zygote which developed into a baby and then an adult without every knowing who he was
6. Why did this being which inhabited the zygote of Mary not warn Joseph to flee to Egypt, why did GOD have to send an angel to convey this message
7. Why did this almighty being have to learn the scriptures from scratch
8. Has not GOD said in his WORD that he did not choose angels who are ministering spirits to be his SON but JESUS who is a glorified MAN.

Please answer these valid questions

you seem to be biting more than what you can chew at a time.

Am not oblige to add to the situation you have put yourself already.

It should rather be you against Jesus words that said he "came from heaven and will go back to where he was befor"
John 6:62

face this debate,

Note:

this debate is not about three Gods or trinity but to proof if Jesus had existed as a real spirit person befor coming to earth.

As it is looking already some are desperately trying to mixe things up and calling on trinity.
We should focus on the theme of the thread.

@Enigma. So far, you are the only person that is honestly addressing the thread"

i will not be a party to a dishonest approach of turning this thread to a trinity issue.

We should stick to the thread theme,

it is important to exterblish this fact "if Jesus Pre-existed or not" and not muddled things up.

Enigma: @ Mr Anony

Sorry for butting in (and hope I do not derail the discussion) but the following questions are "asking to be asked" following our friend's posts!

God's "Word" is "Word" in the actual sense"!

God's "Word" became flesh ---- in Jesus, as I understand our friend.

OK then:

When God's "Word" had become flesh in Jesus, did God have any other "Word" or "Words"?

During Jesus' baptism (when Jesus was already God's "Word" in the flesh) God was heard saying "words" "This is my beloved Son etc": are these "words" of God "words in the actual sense"? Are these God's "words" different from God's "Word"?

If God's "Word" had already become flesh, how and where did God then find another "word" or other "words" to speak afterwards?

beautifully Done.

frosbel: God's WORD which he used to create the world has always been with him as his WORD , not a being.



Indeed as GOD is eternal with neither beginning nor end , so is his WORD.



I am assuming by WORD you mean WORD in the actual sense, in which case I concur.



God's WORD is eternal.

*sigh*

frosbel: Indeed as GOD is eternal with neither beginning nor end , so is his WORD.

ropping ones self it seems to me

frosbel: I am assuming by WORD you mean WORD in the actual sense, in which case I concur.

and this

frosbel: God's WORD is eternal

*sigh* again.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Ok good, so you agree that the Word was with God from the beginning. In other words, it is the same person, all that happened was that He took on another form i.e. the form of a man.
So I am right in saying that the Son (also known as the Word) has been existing from the begining.

Now my question to you is: Do you agree that the Word is eternal (i.e. has neither beginning nor end)?

If you agree that the Word exists eternally, then my next question would be: doesn't this mean that the Word is God? (remember that God by definition is the One who is from everlasting to everlasting)

If you disagree that the Word is eternal, then you will have to show us from scripture where God created the Word (i.e where the Word came into existence) or where the scripture hints that the Word can be destroyed (or cease to exist).[/quote]this is what happens when you refuse to give the word as a person = Jesus, was with Yahweh in the begining.
*sigh*

italo: If you revere the Bible and praise it, as I presume you do, are you worshipping it?

the bible is an object just as the rosary is an object.
But no body have ever accused the RCC of worshiping the rosary but it is said that the RCC use rosary in worship.

So, this are two parallel things and you should not equate it to the worship of mary which is a different ball game.

Callotti: They do not worship MARY. . .they only honor her.
Don't ask me why sha.

dont worry, we know why you said such.

Your are a product of the catholic church and they are proud of you Sha!

Callotti: They do not worship MARY. . .they only honor her.
Don't ask me why sha.

dont worry, we know why you said such.

Your are a product of the catholic church and they are proud of you Sha!

nakash: God exists as a spirit that has a human form like man to some. He ordered that his likeness should rule over the earth and gave him wisdom to do that. One satan contrived to mislead man thru woman and that special relation was discontinued for eternity. Merciful to the 2nd intelligent being he offered Christus to redeem His favour. I think thats where xtianity sprung from.

good one men.